Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: You're live.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We are Friday, April 10, and we are here talking about the T Bill. And I think we're in the middle of, markup. And are you Dave? Yes. Why don't you move first, and then we'll move to Damian? Okay, I'm ready if you are. We need to name who you're representing.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So yeah, for the record, David Roberts. I'm a managing consultant at the AIC. We're a nonprofit based in Winooski, and I help coordinate the Drive Electric Vermont program. So I'm here to give you some information about the work we've been doing at Drive Electric Vermont over the past many years, and happy to take any questions you have related to EV. I'll do my best to answer them. I have presentations that I've shared on the committee page. I'm going to try to skip through some of the slides that are more background and try to maybe linger on some of the slides that are more relevant, but please stop me. I'm happy to take any questions as I go before I launch in.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I should know

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: or overarching questions you all have been wondering about related to EVs?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well I guess something that came up was that, I'm sure you know what we're

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: doing on EMBA.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: I am aware, yes.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, there was an issue or a concern that it might, deter folks

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: from getting EVs?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah, it's tricky because we have to pay for the infrastructure, but EVs right now are a pretty small percentage of the overall fleet. It's about 2% or so of the total vehicles registered in the state. But appreciate trying to get ahead of the curve in terms of getting something in place where EVs are contributing to infrastructure. So there has been some research. I haven't seen anything super recent, but several years ago around the flat fees that a number of most states had moved forward on similar to Vermont, and that it does have a somewhat negative impact on EV perceptions and sales. But I don't know exactly how that might be on the chest in terms of changes in adoption. There's so many different variables in place, I think it's not ideal, but at some point it's going to have to be done.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's helpful. Then if you can talk about what's happening that encourages people because my understanding is that we have a lot more used EVs so the prices have come down. Obviously gas prices going up sends people to EVs.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: What so I think is really important that we're not getting the word out as far as I can tell is that our network of charging is actually really good. It's a lot better than I thought it was and next year we're going to have more than what the federal government recommends on main roads.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: If you could speak to that. Okay, I'll go ahead and dive in then. So BIC, we're a nonprofit. We do operate the Efficiency Vermont Energy Efficiency Utility. Historically, Efficiency Vermont, which is funded on ratepayer surcharge on electric bills, has not been able to do much in the realm of transportation electrification because even though EVs are more efficient, they're increasing electric use. So there has been a program that's allowed Efficiency Vermont pilot program that the legislature has passed twice now that's allowed Efficiency Vermont to do some work in

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the field.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: We work closely, know, drive electric Vermont and efficiency Vermont both under the same roof so we can coordinate and leverage the strengths of each other. I'll talk a little bit about that later. So just going to dive into a little policy, our work at Drive Electric Vermont, Efficiency Vermont programs, some of the market conditions, looking into some of the things you mentioned Senator Harrison. Again, I'm just going to kind of quickly hit on some of these. EVs do reduce emissions even when you take into consideration the battery manufacturing and disposal, which does have a significant footprint, but overall, over the life of the vehicle, significant emission reductions. But EVs are still cars, so, you know, walking, bicycling, public transportation are still really critical to advancing our climate goals. EVs are called out in many ways in state energy and climate plans, so there's a number of areas that are called out here. Talked about fuel costs, decent so volatility in fossil fuels. We've seen gas prices, at least yesterday or the day before in Vermont, averaging around $4.13 a gallon according to Tripoli. So that is potentially gonna steer some people toward looking at alternatives, more efficient vehicles, EVs. If you're on an off peak rate, the number of utilities offer, so Fremont Power, for example, their off peak EV charging rates equivalent about a dollar 30 a gallon of gasoline. So, you know, really significant savings, about $5,400. If you've been owning the EV over the past five years with all those peaks in the gasoline prices, you'd be saving about $5,400 compared to sort of the average gasoline driver in the state.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: A year.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: 50 That's over five years. Five years. It just depends how much you drive. The more you drive, the more you save. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, the average car in Vermont sold a little over 12,000 miles. The charge for vehicle miles traveled, the average would be about a $154 a year. So compared to the price of of gasoline, that's pretty minimal. So,

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: private electric pumps, so we've been doing this work in partnership with the state since 2012. We have a number of different facets. We have quarterly stakeholder meetings where we try to get folks across state agencies, electric utilities, other organizations working on transportation efficiency, dealer association, others get together, hear the latest updates on the market conditions, charging, development, things of that sort. We've been doing consumer education outreach, marketing campaigns, trying to get the word out. We supported incentive programs. Currently, the state's federal programs are are no more, but there are still electric utility incentive programs. So we have resources to help consumers figure out what's available to them on our Drive Electric website, driveelectricvp.com. We're doing business and municipal fleet support activities and supporting the state and others on building out more charging. Can I ask that the 5,400 that you give, and I look at your monthly fuel cost comparison, the backup to that page, some of the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: background material in there, because I don't see the 5,400 number in either? And as we talk about all of this, What I think out of that chart is that the price of gasoline is probably the biggest determinant of whether someone might be interested in moving to an electric vehicle.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: I think it is a determinant. I think it needs to stay high for a long period of time to really shift consumer behavior. I mean, that's what we've seen, at least in the past. So there are other factors. Some people really appreciate the technology and performance of EVs because they drive really well. Some people are just looking for there's a lot of personal sort of emotion in vehicle purchasing for consumers, not as much on the business side. Businesses tend to be more oriented toward cost of ownership issues, but on the consumer side, we'd all be driving small, very economical vehicles, if not for a lot of the other decisions that people make around why they're purchasing the vehicle they are. Fuel cost, definitely a big one, but a lot of other things in play.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm not saying there aren't multiple, but fuel costs are probably on the list of many, probably right at the top.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Sure. Mean, presently, with the state and federal incentives not being available and so it's costs. If somebody is worried about costs, the savings on fuel are significant right

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: do not because I'm looking at the state federal incentives, help to grow it, the price of fuel, in comparison to a $154 charge or $14 per thousand miles traveled to stabilize the roads they still didn't I think we all know that if we hit a pothole in the wrong way, it's probably not good for any car, electric or otherwise. It just helps us make a comparison. So some of the background material that helped produce this chart. If you could send that to us, it

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: would be helpful. Yep, absolutely. So we're talking about some of the different, so carrots, the incentives, fuel costs, things like that. We've got some of the six that the state has employed related to vehicle fuel economy and emission regulations. And that's what we like to call megaphones, the third leg of the stool of getting the word out on EVs. There's more consumer awareness on education, so it's a lot of the work that we've been focused on at Drive Electric Vermont. Crossing out some of the things that are no longer here in terms of state and federal programs, the emission regulations, Governor Scott paused the enforcement of those last year and the authority for California and the states that signed on to the California program was rescinded by Congress and it's currently being challenged in court. So there's some uncertainty how that's all going to work out, at least for now the prospects aren't great that those lean car regulations are going to be back at least in the way that they were for us as of two years ago, let's say. So there's a lot of shifts that have happened in the sort of policy environment for supporting EVs, but there are still things happening on a more local level. I mentioned utility incentive programs, the state's still investing and charging infrastructure. Those federal funds restarted, unfortunately. There are still things happening, but it's definitely a changing environment that we're looking at. And just briefly skiff through some of this, a little more background on our drive electric amount of work, the importance that people need to be familiar with EVs before they consider purchasing one. And so just going for a ride can really support somebody who maybe wasn't considering one previously. I might give them a second thought about, oh, yeah. It might actually work for me, especially if you're in a two car household, things like that. We've got our website is really our most public facing resource, so we've cracked the traffic on that. Can see back to 2012, we started small and things have had some ups and downs depending on incentives availability, fuel costs, things of these that are sourced. The real big wrap up that you see sort of at the 2021, that was part of a large marketing campaign that Efficiency Vermont funded, and there's been back campaign spending that varied over time. That's some of the dips. And certainly last year, we're seeing some dips. I think most people who are maybe in the market for NEV were aware that the federal tax credits were ending last September, pulled forward a purchase if they could. So we always expected things would be fairly slow the last quarter, last year and the first quarter of this year and starting to see indications of things are perking back up, especially with fuel costs increasing. So we have a resource here, the incentive finder where people can filter, know, if you're looking for an all electric vehicle, who's your utility, are you looking for charging maybe in that at your home or business. So lots of great resources for anybody who's thinking about an EV and some resources really for EV owners as well. So we do offer technical assistance. We're building an increase from consumers and businesses working closely with the state. We've supported Etrans and the NEVI planning work that they're doing, supported ACCD and some of their charging activities as well.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you. So do you know how many or what proportion of EV owners or drivers have charging at their home?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: It's the majority. We don't have absolute statistics, but it's certainly the majority. Some of them may be getting by with the level one charging, just plugging into a standard outlet. That can work. If you're driving less than 40 miles a day, especially if you have a plug in hybrid level one charging can work fine for a lot of folks. Level two, the two forty volt, like a dryer is definitely preferred. A lot of the utilities have incentives to provide the charging equipment, but also make sure that people are charging during off peak times.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right, and that's what Green Mountain Power does. But they know how many

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: there are.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: They know how many chargers they have. They don't necessarily know how many EV drivers they have in their territory though because not everybody has their charging equipment.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, But do can we get those numbers? Does somebody have

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: those I emailed when we were

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: gonna talk about it on the bill. They felt they did a big one. I'd 1,500 home charging

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: that they have for some customers buying about their own for another. Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But they make it easy. I mean, it's

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: free. Yeah.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: It's free.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If if you And then you just stay in their program. Yeah.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I wanna say it's 1,500.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. Great.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: It's free for all all electric vehicle plug in hybrids. They don't provide it for free.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Did get it for free.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: 5,000. 5,000?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: 700 plus two charge,

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: which installed and enrolled in our EV rate program.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Okay. Yeah, non powered.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, well they had, I received it free when free also means that you're in their service and it was a hybrid and it was at a part of a cycle where they weren't providing as many as they thought they were going to. So they made the rules a little looser.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah, so some of the work that we're doing, just some feedback on it. I want to call your attention to this group Neighborhood Connections. They're doing community transportation work in Londonderry. They've got two EVs in their fleet now. In the prior slide, I had a photo of where they set up a charger at their headquarters. And they're saving, they're protecting, they're going to save $24,000 this year, just the fuel and maintenance savings with using those EVs. Really significant, really enjoy doing that work to help some of these entities take money.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: And aren't those vans?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: They have a Honda Pro Log and some of the agencies are using vans, but this is a smaller service.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's a great organization.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: We did make a funding request to house transportation in general. So we received $325,000 to support this work in the last fiscal year. We know things are very tight and we appreciate that that is probably more of an ask than we're going to see. The House bill has passed out of the House at, I think, 01/1993 So we appreciate that support if it moves forward and hope to continue doing this work over the next year or longer. We currently have enough money from the funding that we have in the bank, so to speak, we think to keep going until about September.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Derry. And sorry for being late, Dave. But I think I may have seen some information about Drive Electric in the past. So hopefully I didn't

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: miss any

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: big changes. So I'm very supportive of us fully funding the $3.25 amount. And I know you were saying there's kind of an uptick recently with gas prices and EV driver adoption, but I would say that it seems like Drive Electric is the place where people get information, get up to speed on what the incentives are, and it's a really critical part of that decision making point. So I'm concerned that you've seen the underfunding in the budget because I do think that will have an impact on people gaining access to EV driving. And I'm wondering what would you have to stop doing if you didn't get the full funding or close to the full funding? Like what would we be losing? It feels like quite a bit.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So I think the first thing is that we would have to tack back on some of the more kind of one on one assistance, so like the technical assistance to businesses and the communities, because it's pretty time consuming. I mean, website, I think we would prioritize continuing to keep that available and as up to date as we can, just knowing that it's a very efficient way to get a lot of information out to folks. So it's the more kind of one on one types of assistance activities and maybe some detailed analysis like the ACCD asked us to dig into the charging data for work that charging that the state has supported in the past. Pretty time consuming analysis, things like that would probably be the first to drop.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, you. And I hope that we

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: fully The qualify for 03/25 is a full year funding?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yes, it might even take us a little more than a year. Kind of depends on the requests that we get coming in. In the past, And I think the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: have funding for the first quarter of the year? Yes. Mhmm. And the house put 183. I

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: don't know what

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: these are. 192. 2. Thanks.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Efficiency Vermont, I mentioned a little bit. They've been doing some work under what they call the Energy Efficiency Modernization Act or EMA, which has been focused around working with the dealer community and a broad consumer awareness campaign. That work was extended in 2023 for three years. That authorization is sunsetting at the end of this year. So Efficiency Remote is planning to end these programs at the end of this calendar year. So the dealer program has supported 58 dealers with failing EVs. Dealers So can get support for installing charging, service equipment, things of that sort.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So I will say this is the only program I see actually being able to make mLove happen. Like we talk a lot about the mileage based user fee specifically for battery electric vehicles. And so far this is the only program I know that is actually working directly with dealers to give them information about EVs. So it seems like a really bad time for this thing to go away when we could be facilitating all sorts of conversations with frequent EV selling dealerships about the changes when they sell a vehicle to connect that person's proper registration and odometer reading. I don't think this is a good idea to end at this point since it's like all of that work that could have been used to support EMBA long term won't be there. So is EMA the problem or why? Is it because we have to extend EMA for another year? What's going on with that?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So there's ongoing conversations between Efficiency Vermon and the regulators at the PUC and the Public Service Department and concerns about electrification. So using Efficiency Vermont rates here

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: are dollars. Fuel versus yeah, okay.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So I think Efficiency Vermont feels like they've done some good work here, but it wasn't a priority for them to renew the EMA program. And it's not every dealer that's participating. So I think, obviously, Vermont DMV works closely with dealers and they would certainly be involved. It's possible still figuring out how the sunset process might work with this program and maybe elements of it that we can bring into our viable effort to come out work and keep it going because we were working with dealers before the NEMA

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: program So

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: I don't At this point, it's not an organizational priority to extend it. I know Burlington Electric Department has some interest in extending some of the work they're doing, so there may be some nuance here that I'm missing.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Well, it's a bummer to see the connection go and I hope that the agency uses those connections to support an MUP program in eighteen months.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So a little more background on some of the work that's been done through the Efficiency Vermont program. There have been some dealer training for sales staff. Dealers do get a lot of training sales staff through the manufacturer that they're working as a new car dealer, but maybe specific things that we've offered through this program. And the consumer awareness campaign. So this is a lot of online ads. At one point there was a TV ad run which ended a couple of years ago that lot of just sort of broad consumer marketing activity around normalizing EVs, getting people more familiar with them, and see a really significant increase in traffic to the Drive Electric website. Some of that work has continued. I guess I should pause there. I have now just a couple of slides related to ongoing market conditions and some of the charging infrastructure things. Was that the good use of the prompt there that you showed us as lightning? Oh,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: no, that's funny.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: It's pretty fabricated. You never heard the prompt?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I've never heard the prompt.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Oh, yeah. That's what they call, you

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: have a front.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I don't.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: She does? Not yet.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Some of the smaller ones don't.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'll get a Rivian one day.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: It probably has. Yeah, so in the industry there have been some significant changes, as I mentioned, and automakers are responding to market conditions and packing back some of their EV investments, so we've definitely seen EV models discontinued, some of the announced production facilities shifting to gas cars, things of that sort. But globally, the trend is still barely toward electrification. Europe, China, other countries are still moving ahead. It's very quickly advancing. A lot of that has to do with the decrease in battery prices. Over time, battery prices have dropped precipitously, fortunately. And this is sort of the the idea behind incentives is to find that market, get to the economies of scale, and get to the the point where, hopefully, EVs are at parity with gasoline vehicles. And there are some cases now, especially if you look over the life of the vehicle, the total cost of ownership where EVs do cost less even without some of those incentives that have been available. But there's still some work to be done on that front. A lot of the current pricing and deals are related to automaker programs. So some automakers have been more competitive or seeking that market more aggressively. Hyundai, for example, has dropped the price of the i5, one of their popular all electrics by $7,000 in this model year. Base MSRP at $35,000 starting to see other price drops. And on the flip side, we're seeing Ford is that discontinuing the F-one 150 Lightning and their heat transit van. So it's sort of some good and some bad. But overall, I shared in my best moment here is a copy of our latest private electric block fact sheet. And the backside of that is a table about 60 models that are still currently available for sale, new in the state, and many more available in the used market now. So this is a lot of EVs were leased over the past several years. There was one of the facets of the federal tax credit is not every EV would qualify for tax credit on a purchase, but they could qualify on a lease because of the way the tax the law was written. And so the EVs on lease are on lease will be coming off lease over the next two years. And so there's been a number of media reports on this subject and starting to see this. We've been seeing a steady increase in used EVs over time and this is where things really get much more affordable. And we're expecting to continue seeing that. It's a little bit tricky because the EVs come off lease in Vermont, they don't necessarily stay in Vermont. If they get typically returned to a dealership, the dealer has the option to basically buy it out. First of all, the consumer can buy out the lease if they want. In some cases, the buyout price is not reflective of current market conditions. A lot of people just choose not to exercise that option. The dealer then gets an option, and if the dealer doesn't want it, it goes to a regional auction, which is outside of Vermont, typically. There's not

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I would weigh the price of an electric vehicle because they're generally they're generally more expensive than combustion engines, you know, for the vehicles. How would I measure the price above? I'm with the new truck that Jeff Bezos is coming up and it's late that's supposed to be in a price low twenties to mid twenties, I think that will do more than almost anything to pick up sales. So how would how can I is there any good measurement between what's out there that would make the vehicles more affordable to the general public than they have been?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Well, certainly the growing availability, I mean, just new cars in general. So it's the cost of a new car, like the average cost of a new car, electric or gas, is $50,000 these days roughly. A lot of people are looking at used vehicles and used EVs. If you're willing to settle for something that's a little bit older technology, a little higher miles in the battery, they're holding up quite well. That was a concern several years ago, how are these batteries gonna hold up in used EVs? And at least so far, they're holding up quite well. So you can expect about 2% less range annually on an EV battery, give or take. So after ten years, you might have 80% of the original range. But for most people, that's still plenty, certainly for daily travel. It just depends on the EV, but you can get a used Chevy Bolt for $12,000 something like that, in that range, depending a little bit older one with some higher mileage. It's just like any other car at this point. When you get into the beams, you have a big depreciation head as soon as you drive a new car off the lot. But there

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: are no figures out there about on the new car range, you know, I can pick out one, and I was trying to make a comparison about different stuff across the board.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: You can. I mean, like, so for example, Chevy has an Equinox EV and they have an Equinox gas vehicle. Did you those comparisons or you just showed each one the price and the operating, like a very similar car like that? Yeah, I don't have that here, but I'm happy to share some information. That would be if

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: you had anything you had for comparison. Sure, yep. This

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: is what we've seen adoption look like as of the end of, including the last quarter of last year, so just sort of falling out. We saw a big ramp, and then when the state incentive programs ended, we definitely saw a decline in sales after that. It's unfortunate, but at the same time it's kind of what you wanted in the sense of it does appear as strong indications that those incentive programs were really supporting the market. That money was being spent in a productive way. And then with the end of the federal tax credits, it continued to go down and they're at pretty levels going back to say 2023 at this point. And we do anticipate over the next six months that things will pick back up and certainly if fuel prices stay high, that would be very interesting to see what that means for the overall market. So you mentioned charging infrastructure earlier and that Vermont does have a quite robust network. We do have, if you look nationally, we have more charging ports per capita than any other state. That's something we've been proud to say for a number of years now. There are still some areas of the state that could use some additional project infrastructure, Northeast Kingdom in particular. There's been a the state has funded a past project in the Island Pond area, but trying to find a suitable site location has been really challenging. So I know they're continuing to work on that. Hopefully something will move forward this year. So in addition to the locations, it's also nice to see that the number of charging ports per location is also going up. So you have more redundancy if there's a maintenance issue or now it's not uncommon that especially in some of the more popular spots that you might have congestion for charging. So you have to wait or try to hit it at a time when it's not so busy. So I think those are continuing to improve the reliability and just availability is still important, but we do have a really robust network and that's, know, some states, I think we're well ahead of where New Hampshire is. New Hampshire doesn't look too bad on this map, but that's mostly because of their Tesla fast chargers, most of those larger circles. So they they are starting to make some progress on some of their their state and federally funded programs, but Vermont has been well ahead of them in terms of implementing I think

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: we really need to let people know about that because that's really important and I didn't know. And there are more coming on and by the '27 if everything goes as planned we'll have even more but Tesla is allowing some of their units to

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah, sort used by of first generation what they call superchargers, they're fast chargers, don't have the right compatibility to allow other vehicles to use them, but the second generation later do allow non Tesla vehicles to charge. So that means, you know, most of the Tesla locations in Vermont do allow non Tesla vehicles to charge, and all the automakers are moving to the Tesla plug. It's called the Max. Right. Basically, automakers have adapters now. So even if you don't have a car with the Tesla plug, you can still use their passenger.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. But my understanding was that in some situations you have to have a Tesla account.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yes.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So that prohibits no matter what kind of plug you have. So do we have on our map, on one of our maps, it show which Tesla sites take non Teslas?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yes. So the map that we share on the driver record from our website now is, embedded from PlugShare. Uh-huh. PlugShare has a smartphone app and a website you can go to, and you can filter to show that You can filter out the Tesla only locations.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, it's not that map, it's this map.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right, but what I would like, for example in my town, there's a huge Tesla charging, but I only see Teslas there. So hopefully they'll be one of the ones that change, but that's up to Tesla. Right. I mean, there's a negotiation between Tesla and the federal government, I believe, that has been going on for years to get them to share their Yeah, but it's a choice because if Tesla, their users expect a certain quality. They don't want to have to wait. Their system is really good. You can plan ahead, you can tell them that you're coming, get in a queue and they don't want to change that. And the federal government had a process like two or three years ago to have a monetary incentive to get Tesla to

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah, they've worked out a program where Tesla would be eligible for nevi funds. Yes. And so that requires Tesla to allow sort of some more flexibility on the payment options. But it doesn't necessarily mean they need to go back and retrofit existing.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, no, understand. We have the ability, non Tesla people have the ability to get the but they're Like

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: I have one for Mylan, where I can charge at a Tesla facility, but not all

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: the facilities been updated to allow non Teslas to charge. Right. It's

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Right. So I pull up some of them

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: and if it's not updated, I can't charge.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. But I think that's in choice of Tesla, whether or not it's a The spend

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: update is Yeah. I mean,

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: it's but it's a significant investment. It's not just software. It's hardware for them. So they need to go out and

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes. You

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: know, make some investments there. So, yeah, we're talking about sort of how you pay a charging. So Right. There's a lot of consumer frustration around this issue. Know, how many I have 10 plus apps on my phone for all the different charging networks. Right now, we tell people if you're going on a road trip, you know, ideally you're planning out your stocks and just sign up for those networks in advance so you're not pulling up somewhere and trying to figure out how to sign up and all of that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: With no WiFi.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah. Phone support usually aren't smiling Yeah. Exactly.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: You feel like, allow, they don't answer your tweet.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So this is improving. I think where things seem to really be heading is the contactless credit card. We're more and more consumers getting these tap to pay credit cards and it's much easier. I think the charging equipment manufacturers have a much easier time integrating that technology as opposed to the chip and swipe credit card readers, which the state has required for state funded fast chargers to date because not everybody has a contactless credit card currently. But I think at some because of the additional security and maintenance issues with the credit card

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: reader Are all charging stations that Chip and Swipe is there? No. Is that what you're

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: I'm saying for state funded location State

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: state funded. Funded fast charging locations. And do you know how many are and aren't?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Not off the top of my head, but I would say if you're looking at locations, it's probably around 20% might have chip and swipe readers. So

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: we're working on obviously the T bill and then I also have some language that we were two sections of we've allowed to be in the bill and then the third section was a study all around EBSE. But one of the confusing parts for me is I thought we did require that you had to have credit card access public or private. So is that just like a matter of enforcement and like it's just not a thing or why is it still do we need to bolster the law to actually get folks to have those things? Like what's going on there?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: I don't I'm not an expert. May need to phone a friend or what have you on this particular element. But my understanding is that it was only required for the state funded locations. So

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So maybe we do need to actually put something.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: So the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: that or I can't Go ahead. For

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: the record, they've been honored by legislative council. The state law does say public charges shall accept multiple forms of payment. It does not specify what multiple points means, and there is not necessarily an enforcement mechanism on that. Yeah. And so I'm not sure how, one, how well known that is or two, whether mobile form, mobile forms would mean, you know, yeah. It could mean, it could mean contactless payment and you're compliant Or it could mean accepting multiple apps if you've partnered with someone else. So shipping swipe, which is, you know, with

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the currently old, you said 20%?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Don't hold me to that please, but that is my rough Do

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: you have your phone or you have a little you

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: see the little card, the little orange part in the corner? They'll mail you one and then it's like you tap it like you would.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: And then, you know, if you're a Tesla owner, you can plug in the card. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: some of them are, you have to use their app and you have

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to have an

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: account and when you're trying to get an account there's nobody there before they bring them. But just want to ask, if we do have that requirement, is that something that I could check for when they do their measures thing inspection? I mean, it seems relevant. Yeah, would love if they could do that.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Go ahead. Yeah, so that's, you know, happy to talk more about any of this stuff, but just to kind of wrap up my presentation at least, we're seeing market adjustments. Always knew the day would come when those incentives ended, it came sooner, at least on the federal side than I think anyone thought, at least in industry. But we'll see what happens with fuel prices, manufacturer pricing and production, all these different factors will influence when we get back to higher sales levels. The used EV supply increasing is a big part of that, bringing more affordable options. Definitely more work to improve the public charging. We didn't talk much about multi unit residential charging, but that is a key issue for EV owners. Think being able to charge where you live is the lowest cost, most convenient way to do it. And if you're in condo or apartment, you may have more challenges, maybe a lot more expensive to get charging installed. So the state has had some funding programs to support that, which have been really helpful. Hopefully those can continue in some manner. We're continuing to do our work as Rival Electric for months and hopeful to have some additional funding to keep going after September.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, I would just say I really appreciated that you took time today, so thank you for coming in. I always appreciate kind of your thoughts as we think about what will affect EV drivers. And we've had a lot of conversation about mBuff, the mileage based user fee, and how it's starting not in the voluntary program, but starting as mandatory. I don't think we're having you back in again before we vote on the bill. So I'm just wondering if you could speak to any reflections about mileage based user fee or other parts of

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: the bill H-ninety four-four that we're going be holding up.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah, so we are state funded. We're here to provide information, but not be an advocate. So I think, as I said a little bit earlier, and maybe before you were able to join, at some point maybe, hopefully we start to see more EVs on the road and at some point, you know, it's gonna be necessary that they contribute in the same way that gasoline cars do. And so when that point is reached, there's a lot of trade offs. Know, I mean, You may see some folks who are disappointed in current EV owners as well as effective shoppers as additional fees come into play. I leave that to you and others to figure out the best time to do that. It's tricky to know exactly what a certain fee might mean in terms of decrease in the interest or sales. I mentioned there have been some studies on some of the earlier flat fees that did show some decreased interest in EVs as a result of those. But the ones that I'm aware of at least are several years old now. So it's I think it's hard to ease out exactly what it might mean for adoption and the ownership experience. But, you know, at some point, hopefully, we'll figure out a path forward that works for everybody.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, you know, some of your issue in the upkeep of roads is not your fault exactly. But, you know, internally within budgets, you're plugged in. All the plug ins, the money that comes in from that is the sales tax, and none of that sales tax goes towards the upkeep of the infrastructure for the highways. So if, you know, it it we haven't been totally thoughtful about the way that we can pull all this together.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yeah. So, certainly, you all are have real challenges and I appreciate that. Certainly, think UBM has been in to provide some information about the research they did for VTrans and the impact of not adjusting for inflation being really a big impact on what the transportation funds can do. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. So you also had the hand up that

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: showed all the UVs for sale. Right?

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Yes. The back side of that fact sheet does have the list. It doesn't have every UV because it's doesn't fit on a page anymore. Yeah. But it's You didn't know which ones. I didn't choose which ones to put on. There's some editorial judgment. You know, the more popular ones. I knew

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: you didn't notice the loosened air was not.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Oh! Well, I put in the gravity. I saw that. They're both pretty esoteric. There's no that in Vermont, but they do have incredible range.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I always had it once I was at a charting patient.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, have the whole chart. Yeah, this is so great. Used to bring this with me to stuff because to your point, Senator Westman, people go, how much is it? That's really the question. And so they've got all the base rates of each of the vehicles that are most common and what the incentives Yeah. And it seems like the conversation for that I was having with people was not ICE vehicle versus EV vehicle. It was used vehicle or new vehicle.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And and also people want Subarus. Right? And Subaru was kinda late to the party. Yeah. But but but they're coming. Are at

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the party. I will say. Yeah. The the idea that this summer, there'll be a a small pickup from slate My gosh. And they're talking about base prices in the low to mid twenties. Wow. I think that will change the world. I hope so. I think at this point of your and thank you very much for being here. We have next, I think, Christina, are you there?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Miss miss Jensen, if you're there.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I'm here. I couldn't find the buttons.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Sorry

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: about that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Did you see the draft of what we're talking about?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I have. I have. Okay, I see people coming and going, but we're all set?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep, we're all set. Need to identify yourself and then talk about what we are contemplating putting in our transportation.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Perfect. Well, I'm Chris Jensen, as you know. I am an attorney. I practice in Burlington with Primer and my practice focuses on representation of common interest community associations. I also work with property managers and unit owners. This is really the focus of my practice. Sorry?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Perfect.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Here though also because I am the chair of the Legislative Action Committee for Community Associations Institute, which is a national organization that works with associations, owners and property managers. So, will try to not take up too much of your time today. I think generally the bill is, it strikes a good balance. We have a huge variety of common interest communities in Vermont. They run the gamut from million dollar communities with million dollar units to starter condos. So because of that, we have a comprehensive statute which really tries to retain the flexibility for these associations to govern themselves because they're governed by unit owners, volunteer boards. So we try to retain that flexibility so that they can govern the communities as appropriate under their particular circumstances. But at the same time, have some standards. And so one issue which has been challenging for the past several years has been adapting to improvements in technology. Heat pumps, EVSCs, all sorts of things like that. And those really were not contemplated by the drafters of our statute. So, I'm pretty happy to see H. Nine forty four. There are a few changes that I would suggest. And these are to address really concerns that apply to CICs differently than potentially other owners like landlords. So, first I would ask is that you consider, and I've floated this language to legislative council just to give them a bit of a heads up. But to clarify that the permissible Chris,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: let me ask, you send the language to Damien?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Yeah, to Damien and Cameron.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Yep. Just because they have enough to do without trying to take notes on everything. So first comment, I would ask that you consider making section three one hundred twenty five clarify that the permissible use of EBSEs in residential common interest communities is non commercial. So, reading of the bill is that it really contemplates EVSCs for personal use. So, that could be done by modifying section three thousand one twenty five B1 to provide that the EVSCs installed under this section are for the use of the owner and the occupants of the owner's unit. Second suggestion is that okay, so this is about to get a little bit lawyerly and I apologize for that in advance. One issue that we run into with the Common Interest Ownership Act is that it reallocations of common elements. So that's the common land of the community. That land is owned either by the association or by all of the unit owners together. So, reallocating that property for the exclusive use of one unit owner requires amendment of the declaration. You just

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: repeat what you said? It was really hard to hear what you said.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Oh, I apologize. So one issue that we run into with common interest communities is that the common land that can be parking lots, that can be yards, sidewalks, that land is owned by all of the unit owners together, or it's owned by the association. But in either case, reallocating it for the exclusive use of one unit. And that could be anything from assigning a parking space to allowing a unit owner to construct something on the common elements that's only for their use. So in the EVSE case, allowing a unit owner to install an EVSE or EVSE in a yard or in a common parking area would potentially reallocate common elements to that particular unit. That would require a vote of all of the owners and amendment of the declaration. And I think that's one thing you're trying to avoid here. So, suggested way to address that is to provide in the statute that installation of EVSE shall not be deemed a division or reallocation of common elements and shall not alter the allocated interests of any owner. So, the allocated interests are the interests of each owner in the common elements and changing those allocations requires a unanimous vote of the owners. As you can imagine how challenging that is to get. And I should pause and ask if you guys have any questions.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We have one question.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just one more question. On your last suggestion, this is Wendy Harrison. We can't see you, by the way. Don't know if you know that.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I don't know why. That's odd. I'm sorry.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So your last suggestion, would that mean that the owner who pays for the installation of the charger would not be the exclusive user of the charger?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: No, the person would be the exclusive user, but that use would not be deemed to change the common element allocations.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, so the underlying language or authorities would be the same, the person could say or have control over who uses the charger?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Correct.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay,

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: But control over the charger, I think that that's a good segue to back up a little bit into my first comment. I don't think that you intend to allow unit owners to have commercial use of their EVSE. So a unit owner could not, for example, advertise on the internet that you can come and charge your car at my unit.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: So occupants, sure. Guests, fine, but not commercial use. So jumping to my third comment, another issue that arises has arisen with a couple of my Vermont communities is that there are older buildings we might be able to, the existing infrastructure would support one, maybe two EVSE installations, but it's not going to support it for the whole community. So, you could address that by providing that if the board reasonably determines that the cumulative use of electricity in the community attributable to the installation and use of EVSE requires additional infrastructure improvements to provide a sufficient supply. The association can assess the cost of those improvements to the EVSE users. The reason that's necessary is because only if the declaration provides that expenses incurred for the benefit of fewer than all unit owners can be assessed to those owners. Only if the declaration provides that, can the association assess owners differentially based on things like EVSE use. Does that make sense? I should just pause after each of my comments and I only have a couple more, so don't worry.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yes, that makes sense. Think we thought we addressed that by just saying that

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: bond owner for lack of

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: a better term would would be paying all the installation costs but you just want to make sure that the installation costs extend to any upgrades to the transformer or from utility. Correct.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: Just

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: a follow-up, so say there's four chargers, number five comes in, everybody has to get upgraded. Would this allow one through four to be charged to have to pay their share? Yes. Okay.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Yes. And I think that's a fair way to approach that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. It seems that was me.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Yep. Then fourth comment, successor responsibility is obviously an issue. And you have approached that here by providing that the EVSE owner is required to disclose the existence of the installation and the responsibility for it. My concern with that is that it doesn't protect the association. In the event that the successor owner doesn't fulfill their obligations. So, would propose strengthening that by providing and said that rather than disclosure, the statute should require removal and restoration, removal of the EDSE and restoration of the common elements unless the successor agrees in writing to undertake the responsibilities under this section. Have, especially with condos where there are a lot of first time homeowners, people don't necessarily understand their obligations under the governing documents. That can really put associations and owners in a position where they're undertaking obligations that they didn't know anything about. Even though they should have, that's a whole different question. But by providing that the seller actually obtain the buyer's written undertaking to the obligations of the EVSE, that would prevent that from happening and make sure that owners understand what they're getting into. And if the successor doesn't want the EV charger, then the seller can remove it. So, the fifth item that I have is with respect to 3125C, which is a list of permissible regulations that can be imposed. I would just suggest adding a C5, which a catchall to say that the list of reasonable restrictions is not exclusive. That would allow associations who have particular circumstances to tailor the restrictions, the regulations to their particular needs. And just avoid any argument that these are the only restrictions that can be imposed.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: My only concern with that is, I guess what's an other reasonable restriction?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Well, that's going to be dependent on the specific community where the installation is made.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: If somebody wanted to prohibit them, they could use that as a way to put in another restriction that restricts it.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I certainly understand that concern but I do think that the requirement that the association act reasonably is already in place in multiple places. The concerns that I usually see from my association clients are with respect to whether they're even legally authorized to allow these installations. That's been the primary concern. People want these.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: We do say that it has to be any regulation can't have the result of not allowing it, right?

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right, so language already says that any regulation that effectively prohibits or unreasonably restricts would be void and unenforceable. So this would be consistent with that by saying other reasonable restrictions. So by including the reasonable restrictions and then also says that further up, it also says this subsection shall not apply to provisions that impose reasonable restrictions on EDSC. So, basically, the prohibition on language that would prohibit or unreasonably restrict doesn't apply to reasonable restrictions on that. So this is kinda consistent with the framework throughout.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I think my computer's frozen. I don't understand what's happened.

[David Roberts (Drive Electric Vermont/VEIC)]: We can still hear you.

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Can you still hear us, Chris?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I can hear you now. I'm not sure what's going on with my computer. Zoom is not responding. Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: We're here. We hear you. We're just trying to figure what's your end or on our end.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I'm sorry. What did you say?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Maybe we

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: We can hear you, Bob.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, we can hear you.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Okay. So I think that, trying to recall exactly where we were.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Heard from our life counsel that there's other wording in there that would prevent an unreasonable new restriction that would have the result of prohibiting an installation of the EDSC, so I think we're fine.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Great, that certainly is how I read this section. So, that completes my list of suggestions. Again, I think it's a good bill and I appreciate the hard work on it. It certainly is going to be welcome for my clients.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I don't know if

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: you have any other questions for me.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I just have one question. I don't know if you only represent the associations, if you ever represent owners of associations against the associations or even have you ran into these disagreements with the EBSEs and the participants or the owners and members of the association feeling like that the association was unfairly limiting their access to EDSC?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I do represent individual owners. I do primarily represent associations, but I also work with a lot of property managers. So I hear about disputes that arise and concerns that owners have. The concerns that owners have expressed to me are, or that have been expressed through property managers are things like whether the infrastructure of the community is sufficient to support EVSE chargers. If more than one or two units want to install them. The other issue that primarily comes up is the question of the association's authority to allow installations in the common elements. And this statute is narrowly tailored, which I appreciate to address that issue. Allows installations in the common elements, but is primarily geared toward installations in parts of the common elements that are already dedicated to the use of an owner. Other issues that arise are with respect to insurance, risk to the association from these installations, and electricity use. Because not all, one challenge with this is going to be that not all associations have individual billing for electricity in the common areas. So, it may be challenging as a practical matter to figure out how to assess the cost of the EVSE and their use. Owners who don't use EVSEs are certainly going to be concerned about paying for them.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So, Chris, besides yourself, and we're trying to draft this narrowly, who else should we hear from?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I think it would be helpful to hear from property managers, and I've reached out to a couple that I've done a lot of work with. I don't know if they were just not available today if I can imagine that they're not happy to speak with you. But property managers would be helpful to hear from. They're the people who probably are most familiar with owner concerns and the challenges that arise from trying to get these things installed.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It would be helpful if you had specific people in their contacts if you could get those to us today.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Yep. Yep, I can try to do that. I need to obviously run it by them first and then pass it on. Happy to do that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm not sure what the last few words you said were, but Well,

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: sorry about that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. That's perfectly fine. We the technology is great when it works great and sometimes not so good when it doesn't.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: A little frustrating.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is there anything else you'd like to add?

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: I don't think so, other than to thank you guys for the hard work on this.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And if we have further questions, we'll be back in touch.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: That would be great.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you so much.

[Chris (Christina) Jensen, Esq. (Primmer Piper Eggleston & Cramer PC; CAI Legislative Action Committee Chair)]: Thanks very much.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think there'll be some drafting for you.

[Damien Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I have the changes that she proposed. I think Cameron and I can get that get that language out if the committee wants it and yep. I'm seeing that's not a creative. I'll get that into the bill with the modifications. Yep. Great.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We do have Patrick here. I think at this point, we're going to take ten minutes. And if you could

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: do