Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: You're live.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: This is Senate Transportation and we're back live and we're talking about vehicle miles traveled and we have Patrick Murphy from the agency.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Thank you, mister chair. For the record, Patrick Murphy, state policy director for the agency of transportation. I think a good place to start seeing there's some discussion and maybe some misunderstanding around it is just the how people would pay. So the various payment options, if that feels like a good place for the committee, then we can stop

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's where you want to start. So

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I think the way that, Damien has laid this out is, mostly what the agency would recommend. We don't have an issue with the option of paying after miles have been calculated. In effect, you know, everybody is going to be reconciled at the end of the mileage reporting period. The so what we wanna do is be able to preserve as many options as possible to be able to pay an estimated pay payment upfront if they would like to, to be able to space those out across the year and more sort of akin to how people pay the fuel tax, or to be able to just pay at the end once all the miles have been calculated and a fee generated. I think that's basically what the agency is proposing. So I don't know if there are any questions on that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So from your point of view and the agency's point of view, what Damian has put together for language the flexibility we would give for paying, you're basically telling us you're okay with that language.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, with maybe one caveat. So I think where the confusion was is with the House Ways and Means version, how they amended it, it would allow for a payment plan well into somebody's next mileage reporting period, and that was never the intent of what we were proposing. What we want to do is be able to have somebody space those payments out if they need to, but to do it within the mileage reporting period based on that initial estimate. So that's where there was some confusion, think, in the different committees. Thank

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: you, Patrick. So if I'm understanding correctly, you're okay with the four options as they're laid out being available. Do you see having all four of those be available and then kind of tracking that as a part of a future rollout for all drivers? Is that like something that could be done?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, I mean, so on the pay as you go option, clearly a lot of work is going to be done around communications, a lot around user feedback before this is even rolled out. Sure. So we'll get a better understanding as we start this work. We, you know, we have a contract that'll begin now in April. As we start this work, there there will be user feedback to be able to understand, you know, is this even an option that people would take advantage of and would want, and is it worth then moving forward with the development of it? And then once we get into the actual implementation of it, we'll see how people have responded to the various choices. Certainly, it is the approach of the agency to be able to take that information, analyze it, and see whether we come back to the legislature for tweaks based on how people are actually using it. I think the one sort of piece here that that might be problematic is the flat fee.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: The two twenty

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: five dollars which I understand is just what you all have proposed as a starting point for discussion, but there is a couple of things. We we have talked about the Hawaii program, which will which is sort of voluntary in in effect because you can right now choose either a $50 fee or be able to start paying a MySpace user fee, but it acts as a cap. And at, you know, $20.28, that flat fee option is going away so that the mileage based user fee will be mandatory. That was baked into their language. I think if there is a desire in the beginning because it is a new system and way of accounting for miles to have that option upfront maybe for the first mileage reporting period, that's fine. But if you keep that flat fee in place, in effect, what you're talking about, you know, Damian was right, where for 98 percentile, the mileage that people are going annually, you end up with a fee at about 375, $380. A $225 fee equates roughly to about 16,000 miles if you're paying 1.4¢ per mile. So in effect, anybody traveling above, you know, 16,000 miles and up to twenty seven twenty eight thousand miles or beyond, they're not paying the same per mile rate as someone enrolled in the full mileage based user fee system. And so you're losing that additional revenue between the 16,000 mile mark and above. I think, you know, so I've asked UVM to generate a chart that would be able to kind of show you this data and what that would represent in terms of potential of revenue lost. And hopefully we can have that to you fairly soon this week. If

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: you could have it to us this week, that would be great.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, that's the intent. So just to give you a sense of, okay, at $225 in effect, people mostly who know that they travel more than 16,000 miles a year will probably opt for the flat fee. Yep. You know, human behavior can't be predictable, so who knows how people actually do it. But you have to sort of expect that there will be a significant revenue loss over time if that's kept in place. So that would be one recommendation that if you do want to provide an initial flat fee option that that it be sunsetted clearly within this language.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Sure. Go

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: ahead. But that assumes that everybody all of those miles are going to travel in Vermont. Right. It's I don't know. That's hard to do. That's a lot of miles in Vermont.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So I'm unclear about the department's agency's position on the first one, the annual payment. Because you said you did like what the May's Ways and Means amendment was, but I understand this option A at the top of page five is the same as what ways and means specifically. But you do an annual payment at the end, you have forty five days to pay it. So you're okay with giving people forty five days after the end of the year to pay what the total mileage is, or you're not?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So what has to be done is that the reconciliation has to happen at the point of registration. The ways and means version allowed for somebody to pay this, their exact amount as far as a year later. If they were the language they had drafted allowed for you to not only pay only starting once a mileage reporting period had closed, but also then to have the monthly and quarterly payment option that would allow you to extend that payment over the following year. And so then makes compliance harder because you're not reconciling before

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: No. I thought it was the same as this, which is just worth it.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: No. So that this is the language in effect that we had wanted for the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I was just, around the table, we're fine with getting rid of paying a year after.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: We're fine with getting rid of that. We're paying a year

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: after. Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So that so that we pay either forward or as you go.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Right. You can still pay it back, but you only have to do you have to pay the whole thing within forty five days.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Within forty five days. What he's talking about, you would you would have a payment system for the year before after the true up that went out a year. Okay.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: The ways and means proposal gave them a year instead of forty five days or.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay. Okay. Sorry. I was like, no. No. I need I agree.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. So And the thing is, because

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: if you want to pay it monthly, just pay it monthly in advance.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That's right. And then you have effectively accept that, you know, for that first year, you're only able to work off of an average payment. But once more data is into the system, you'll be able to have sort of assistance from the prior year understanding what your actual mileage is. So you'll be able to see that within MyDNV and be able to make a decision based on that.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: But to Senator Harrison's point, especially for that one, you get to the end of the year and you owe $400 but you don't have $400 So you got to make sure you do a good consumer education about what they're saying. Let

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: me ask you one question before we go to that. I'm sorry I was late. Does the agency have all of the IT or will it have all of the IT within the agency and within your system that you won't need to hire out to a separate company other than the mechanism that shows where you are, the GIS.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: The GPS?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: GPS, but other than that, can the agency handle all of the IT?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So the system that we've proposed builds off what we have for existing systems, which are the AVIP system, which is the annual vehicle safety inspection system that's managed by one vendor, Parsons. There will need to be some work done so that these two systems can talk to each other because they haven't, you know, had a need to in the past. So there'll need to be some development work there. And then FAST is the vendor that has managed the core IT modernization effort, building out vehicle services, driver services that just launched in November, and so most of what will be needed will be integrated into that system, so that people will be able to go on to MyDMV, they pay their registration, they'll be able to renew their license, they'll be able to do lots of different things, including pay their mileage based user fee.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, and will you keep track or can you please keep track or maybe we should say you need to keep track of the cost to the agency of that system because there's going to be an operating cost.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That's right and that's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But just know what it is because we need to recoup that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right? That Wendy's right in the same line of the question that I asked I asked Michelle. When we see the cost of implementing this whole thing, People are going to ask what's this gonna cost? And I know the upfront portions of all of this are coming out of that grant, but it would be nice to have the budget for all of this. Here's what it looks like going forward to get here.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Sure, and so the way this has been conceived is that, you know, we already have contract with FAST, the vendor, to manage our other IT systems, and so this will become just another module within what they've developed as our core IT system. And then there's obviously, there's transactions that will take place at DMV that haven't in the past, but it is anticipated that that can be handled within the ordinary, you know, course of business. Part of the modernization effort was really to help staff become more effective because you had, you know, a couple of dozen different databases that had to be queried and there's all kinds of band aids and workarounds that had to be created to, you know, effectively do some fairly straightforward tasks. That has been much more streamlined because of the IT work that's already been invested in by the legislature, and so there are expected to be sort of time savings within all of that that will free up the resources to be able to manage this within our current staffing structure. That may be different then, though, as you expand the program, as is proposed in this language, to essentially the rest of the fleet. You know, the scale of it is going to be very different than just 13,000 or 15,000 electric vehicles, And that's why it's important to stage things in a strategic way so that you're continuously learning, as I think Senator, you've alluded to, to be able to take feedback and then have that inform the next iteration, but but then to be able to just handle the different loads that might be that might be put on administrative capacity and understand then for the future what might be needed to continue to expand the program.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. Just a little random question. So with the registrations, is there

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: a time of the year when you

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: get more? Are there is it lumpy?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: You know, I think it it varies across the year. I I you know?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I guess wondering, like, after Christmas. I guess the auto dealers don't yeah. Don't worry. Is it because we we would have that same pattern with this. Yep. Whatever that pattern is.

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Next. So

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: the gist of that is that I think the language here on payment options is mostly good, and I would suggest that we have some more discussion on that flat fee option, and hopefully some of the data that UVM can provide will

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If there's some cleanup to what Damien has put out, if you could give him that feedback. Sure. And the question that will be held open around that will be the flat fee, and we'll get look for the UVM information, and we'll decide whether or not we want a flat fee or not.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yep, and so if you did have a flat fee, you're probably going to want it closer to $300 which represents a higher percentile of the mileage, so you're losing less overall.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We'll look for your feedback on

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: it.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Because we all already know how to lose revenue, right? Yes. We don't need to practice on that.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I missed that. I'm sorry.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, sorry. I'm going to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: quote Senator Starr who is gone from this place. He always used to stay about the same. We know how to buy high and sell low.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, fair enough.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If I can avoid that.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So I know there were some questions around

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Should we can I ask a question because it's Sure? Looming at the table. What should we and where in this document should we talk about outreach? And we know that that you think outreach is important, but how

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: can

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we incorporate that into this document? Not only just for us, but you know, the public is going to ask that and our colleagues in the Senate are going to say, What are you doing to make sure people understand?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, so I think it probably should appear in two places, and I would just note that, as maybe Senator Harrison had said, there is within the grant a substantial portion of our budget dedicated to it, and so there will be that piece, not only sort of general communication with the public, but also targeted outreach to the subject vehicle owners and, you know, in addition to some some solicitation for feedback on the various options as it's being developed so that it is so that there is some user driven, user focus to the design of all of this. So that's an important piece, and if you want to call that out specifically, I can work with Damian on where that might happen, but you would want it in the implementation section for the 2027 implementation. Beyond beyond that, I think you want if you're going to keep some of this language in for a report back or reports back to the legislature, you'd want to have that called out as well in, you know, understanding that the initial implementation is funded with this federal grant, if you want robust outreach, which is necessary to expand this beyond electric vehicles, which is not being currently proposed by the administration, there would need to be funding to do that. Right?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: funding also to to do the development work. So I think an important part of reporting back to the legislature would also be how do we account for those additional implementation costs and the outreach that would be necessary to do it.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Wait. Wanna call on that? No. Go ahead. I think you would I'll

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: make sure it looks Oh, okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: No. No. He we were both Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Go ahead. Whichever one Well months ago. So it just okay, so I'll start. This is eight months away. That's a very short time So in our there needs to be outreach now and receiving feedback now. I mean and it needs to be not just our standard here's a meeting that we advertise on Facebook. I mean we need to actually reach out and I would think you the agency has the ability to reach out to EV registered owners, I mean you know who they are. Could really, you could really do some good targeted, and maybe you already have

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: messaging but I think there needs to

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: be multiple messages telling them this is what we're planning and I do think we should consider having it be voluntary in 2027 just because it's so soon. I mean we've been working on this, y'all have been working on this for years. And just to have the public say okay, guess what?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I mean I said this at the beginning of last year. I was the only candidate, I believe, in the entire state that ran on the idea of like, I talked about it at Forbes, moving to an m buff and getting rid of the gas tax. That was a campaign messaging point to me. And people came up with handmade signs saying against that specific thing that I mentioned in a couple of forms. Like, there is going to be back left to this long ranging. So I completely agree.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So I think we need to do something now.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: We can't do it now because we don't know what it is.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, at least let people know that we're thinking about this and ask some questions about people, you know, from owners of the vehicles that would be part of this in 2027.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: We should have Drive Electric Vermont come in and talk about like what their network of drivers that they can tap into.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Or what we're can I ask you question? I can jump in Patrick. But staying on this, is the agency concerned about the date?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Are you, what do you have planned between now and implementation?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: And what if it was July 27 and not 01/01/2027?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So a couple of things. One, we were just able to finalize the contract with our vendor to be able to guarantee delivery of this system by January 2027, which is the direction that we had from the legislature. The federal grant is also something that we proposed within our grant application and that was of most interest to Federal Highways Administration is that we'd be implementing the first mandatory program in the country for electric vehicles by this date. So that is the expectation that we would be delivering that kind of a system. There have been all kinds of other pilots, and what we've learned from the various pilots is that voluntary systems don't quite fit the bill, that you don't get the participation that you really need for this to be able to work. And that's why you've seen from various states some of the struggles they've had to make the financials work on it, not just because they've had higher administrative costs because of the third party account managers that they've sought for some of the more technology heavy devices that report mileage to the state, but also because these all have been voluntary programs with very low participation. So I would stress that the recommendation would not be to change this midstream into a voluntary program.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So Patrick, two questions. Did we commit in the grant to a January 1 implementation date?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yes.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We did. So we would violate the agreement with the Feds. Second question, what are we doing to get people ready for this and for implementation? What outreach do we have planned between now and January?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, so we've committed to January 2027 based on legislative language that you all approved. We don't right now have legislative language approved for January 2027, so we can't really, not knowing all of the details of how this will end up, we we won't be able to fully begin a public outreach campaign. The expectation is that once this is approved, that would begin in earnest this summer, so that there is a long sort of runway for people to understand how this will happen. It's also important to understand that this will be a transition because it's not as if all 13,000 vehicles registered now are going to start paying into mileage based user fee on 01/01/2027. They're going to be brought in into the system on their registration cycles, on their inspection cycles in a way that's pretty gradual, and so that you might not have the last sort of existing electric vehicle registration into fully paying a MIHA's based user fee until 2029.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well let me just say, one advantage that we have is that we're switching one feed for another feed. So it's not, we're not imposing a, we're imposing a new feed but it's in, but we're taking away the other. So that's that's the diff that's good. So that'll be easier to explain to people too.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: It will be they'll be paying you for it, but

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, not necessarily.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Mhmm. Well, I mean, not as no.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: They don't drive

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: it. Yeah. But

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So But, anyway, okay. I I wanna go to but I but I haven't heard, Patrick, is so what are the things that we're going to how are we going to reach out to people and do we get past We've got this in place. We've said go ahead from the legislature. You've got all the approvals. What are we going to be doing to notify people?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, so like I said, there'll be general outreach to the public about why we're doing this and the overall understanding, building awareness of what's going on with the transportation fund, but then there will be targeted outreach to electric vehicle owners. There'll be, you know, the ability for people to go and, you know, type in their mileage and see what their estimated payments might be. There's going to be a range of different outreach options. We haven't finalized the contract for that bit of work, but because we first had to nail down with our own technology vendors how much everything will cost. But that's going to happen over the next couple of months so that once there is a bill that's approved, then we'll be able to begin that work this later this summer and have, you know, a six month period of outreach both targeted to the the actual vehicle owners, but also for the general general public.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Michelle?

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the record, Loompauer, Vermont Agency of Transportation Policy Director. So I think it's incredibly important and it's come up a number of times to understand that we do have the names and addresses of every vehicle owner who has an EV who will be immediately impacted by this. And so in addition to broad public outreach for people who might be considering an EV and that sort of thing, we're going to be working very closely with those EV owners. I would anticipate a framework where we would have a direct letter introducing, we would have information about how people could estimate and calculate, how payments would work, have a hotline number where they could call and get their questions answered if they have further information, have website information, you know, similar to what we have with Drive Electric Vermont where you can go and see all the kinds of EVs you could buy and how it would work and all of that, you know, and depending on the vendor, it could be that Drive Electric Vermont somehow is rolled into this, which would probably be ideal since it's their partner with us in this, but those logistics have yet to be determined. So I think Patrick's point that it sounds like we only have six months, but we really don't. We have longer because of the duration. And I think for those people who we know will be entering the system sooner because we have the dates of when their registrations come up, when their inspections come up, we can do a more intensive communication and hold webinars and whatever is needed for those people that are going to be first into the system. But, I think, you know, unfortunately we don't have every last detail to give you right now, but I think we could certainly propose some language that would describe the types of outreach we would like to have done because then we would then work that into the scope of work with our,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: proposal to vendors. I think, Patrick, if you work with Damian to put the language together, some language about the types of outreach that we would expect would give a comfort level for people in here to talk about that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes, and if you could just include things like postcards are relatively inexpensive, but people do notice postcards. Heard that. And then specific like car dealerships who sell those would be really good. They know that. When I was buying an EV, it was amazing how much they didn't know. And then, but like AARP, I mean there's some other agent or other groups, but it'd be really nice to have a plan written down about the outreach.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, we must have thought about what we're if we're going to hire a vendor to help us with this, we must have thought of what are the questions we're going to ask that vendor.

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: And we're looking at what other states do.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: This just one other thing, this does have a component of getting information from them. We're not giving information to them. We want to get information from them. And that might be like a stage two.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If you can incorporate some of this conversation with Damian into the draft, Patrick. Well, it's been so long. I'm

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: sorry, but

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: but I do have a question. What would we need from them?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, what I really want to know, this is going to be an ongoing thing for a couple of years I hope, is what do they feel about these options and what would, if there's a particular option that we would prefer them to do, what would make that option more, preferable for them? You know, things like that once we get into the details because we're just making assumptions on how people are going to feel about things.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Well yeah, but that would be for them. We gave them four options, right?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. That

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: would be for them to decide what works best for them.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Exactly.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Can't choose that for them.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No, I'm sorry. What I'm saying is we're still at a place where we can adjust those options for the bigger audience because this is 11,000 or whatever, is a small segment of drivers and probably drivers who are pretty attuned to their car, you know, like you are, right? Although you are attuned to your car too, but we should get as much information as we can from them early so that we have fewer issues when we take it off, take it to the big group.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah, and I think that's why we're rolling this out the way we are.

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes, but outreach, I

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: mean I can tell you about some other situations in the state and it's not necessarily VTrans, but outreach and getting information back in an orderly way is a really good thing.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Every state we heard from that's done the volunteer program outreach was huge. So what I

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: just wanted to emphasize, I think you're right Senator Harrison, excuse me. You two ladies right there for me. The fact that we have only 13,000 vehicles, the fact that we are going to be that we've already been engaged with them on the user fee and helping them understand what that is, but it will be changing. So those sort of immediate captive audience of folks who are going to be impacted has an idea that a change it will be coming. I think offering them three different kinds or four different kinds of ways to pay is more than we've ever offered anybody else who registers their car annually. So I think we have, we're building in some flexibility for folks beyond what a person who just pays a registration fee would get. And then the next tranche of folks who would be maybe those highly fuel efficient vehicles, we know who they are too in terms of their VIN numbers and vehicle types. So that's where I see us putting a lot in. That we wouldn't ask the BEV owners, how's it going? How's this approach working for you? Do you have any suggestions? Getting some feedback from them. But getting the feedback, having the focus group type engagements, the survey engagements where we are doing like direct mail survey to them to help understand like, would you be, would you want technology that tracks your mileage for the out of state? So, you know, we've talked about that in the bill. So that would be part of the outreach that occurred under this grant in terms of program design for the next phase. Thank you. And do we

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: have a default of March 4? If somebody just doesn't choose? What's the default? They lose their ability to register their feet at home

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: because they're not paying.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well I think we should have a default because somebody might just not check a box.

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Oh they'll get a bill in the mail at the end of their inspection period saying you know, you, you know, it's not probably going to say you didn't choose to pay in advance. It'll just say, here is your mileage fee. We've been telling you it's going to be coming. We gave you these options and now you have your bill and

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: then if they don't pay it there are other yeah. That's the 18%.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: And here's how you might want to pay next year.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Options. Do you are your questions Yeah, did you get your questions?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah, yeah, was worried about pushing back the implementation date and I think we've got a there are reasons why it's not a good idea.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Other areas, Patrick, I think we've I think you and Damian have a little bit of what the committee's thinking on outreach. Other

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: And just to sort of wrap that piece up, there's also built into the grant program evaluation work, which would include sort of post entry into the mileage based user fee. Has been, you know, survey work about what has been the experience of users within it. So that's I think what maybe Senator Harrison was getting at. So I can work with Damian on some of the language there too. So just

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the federal grant was how much in total?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: It's $3,000,000 from the federal highway administration, and then in past transportation bills, we've had the match set aside for that $350,000 in each of the two previous years.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So $700,000

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, and then we have just a small 50,000 in kind match that's based on some of the analysis that has So to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we implement this, we could get the budget for how that 3.7 is proposed to be spent. We must have a portion of that that's set out for outreach.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: yep. So if we could get that and then a rough estimate of going further and beyond what that would look like. So we have

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, earlier in the year there was at least one slide that gave sort of a high level breakdown of the grant budget, and it was over $800,000 that was assigned for public outreach and communication, but then within the implementation budget, which was over $2,000,000 there's still elements of what you're describing in terms of user feedback and outreach.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm envisioning the systems we're setting up for this within that 2,000,000 going forward. Some of it will be overlapped to expand to hybrids to expand to everyone. There'll be some overlap and then there'll be extra costs beyond that. So for For an sure, estimate of that going forward,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: would be helpful. Yep. Can

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I ask you a

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: few questions if feel like we're maybe at that point?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So can I let him see if he's got some areas and if there's overlap you're in and then we'll get to your questions? I don't want to, I want everybody to be heard here. Next area, Patrick.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, so I think maybe the biggest thing that we should get to before there's any sort of break is the actual transition from the EV infrastructure fee to the MyoSpace user fee. Because when this was first conceived, it was not known at the time that the our IT vendor would not be able to sort of look back at prior inspection data to be able to support that transition.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Tell me what page I'm trying to follow-up so I see the language. Which section of the bill is that?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Let me pull it up here.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Wait. Are we looking now at the MBOT language? Because I'm trying to find it in there and I'm not.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we're in the MBOT language. That's why I'm in draft 1.3.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. So where is that?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Maybe giving a bit of structure thing.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: The transition with the T Bill funds. Is that what you're talking about?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: No.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: No. Is it the time between the T Fund getting the MBUF money and the T Fund sending it to ACCD or somewhere else?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: That's 20 BSA three sixty one, which is found on or 23 BSA sorry three sixty one which is found on page 14.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Okay, I'm going the wrong direction.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: And it's important to note that in prior legislation we repealed subsection B of that section which was the actual EV infrastructure fee which allowed just the plug in hybrid infrastructure phase.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Okay so you're talking about page 14 Patrick just so I'm on the right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: He's talking about the IT folks for the vendor and what they can and cannot do.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So, I mean, we can talk. It's actually on page 15 of Damien's latest draft, but it follows this section that you're talking about right now, we can kind of adjust that first and then move downward. Senator Perchlik might be able to better speak to this. He was on the committee when the EV infrastructure fee was first put in place, but it was our understanding that some of the construct that that came about about in the committee was to be able to to provide some of that funding for the ACCD programs, but that as we understood it, the intent was eventually that, you know, that infrastructure fee both for well, the infrastructure fee for the battery electric vehicles that that would be replaced by a MYOS based user fee and then the remaining infrastructure fee for a plug in hybrid would just eventually be redirected into the transportation fund. It wasn't necessarily an ongoing appropriation to the ACCD programs, but I'll leave it to folks who are actually on the committee to describe their intent.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Was that your intent was short term for the program?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think that was basically it. I mean, we didn't know at that point exactly what was going to happen, but yeah, we thought that though we knew more what was going to happen, that it would still go up to the ED charging stations, which was a need specifically that program, which we thought was a good program that needed funding. So, yeah, I think there people are not expecting that to always go to the ED industry. So,

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I mean, but we at the same time, we recognize that with some of the transition that what we've described then in the in the following section could be reducing that appropriation that might be approved this year for 2027 if we're applying so we didn't want to get into a situation with this transition of where there's overlap, a mileage reporting period begins before the first registration renewal for some folks, that you would then be, know, double paying for for some miles. And we thought the simplest way to address that is just to have and this is what Hawaii in effect does, to just have the infrastructure fee that was sort of in effect until the next registration renewal be applied to the overlapping mileage reporting period, And then after that first mileage reporting period, you're starting fresh and paying, you know, that full amount based on the miles you drive. What I began to describe so I think there does need probably to be some language in here that addresses that revenue that's expected from the EV infrastructure fee in 2026, but then gets applied to a 2027 MIES reporting period. I don't know. I don't have a sense of like how many instances of that might happen or the scale or scope of the amounts, but you would probably want to have some language in there that addresses that piece. Bigger discussion is for how this just transitions generally, so what I was starting to say is that it was not known when this transition was described that we would not have access within the new system to old odometer readings. That those it will only be imported to the new system starting 01/01/2027. What that can create is are a few situations where it's hard to reconcile what should be paid at what point because you could have in like the most extreme cases you could have an inspection period that begins in December 2026 and extends then to December 2027, but a registration period that begins January 1 or January 2027 and has a two year registration. So it is sort of hard to catch up. And in the flip side, you could have the registration that begins, the two year registration that begins in December 2026, and the inspection period that begins so that you have almost two inspection mileage reporting periods before you have your first reconciliation. To address this, I think what's simplest is to have vehicles continue to pay a flat fee until there is one full mileage reporting period, and then they get entered into the miles based user fee system where they have these variety of options. And so there's a little bit of a a longer transition, but people would still for those use cases that would be created because of the IT limitations would have sort of a consistent standardized way of onboarding where the last fee paid would be still applied to the first mileage reporting period.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So what you're envisioning is they pay the $89 and then they get credited on their mileage based system going forward?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That's right. If their reporting period overlaps with that $89 in effect registration surcharge.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And how would that create a tail that goes out for the full year?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I mean, it could. There's a few cases, like I say, at the most extreme where you would have a full mileage reporting period, but you don't have a registration because you're on a two year registration cycle you've done that before this program begins, just before. You could have a situation where you have a full mileage reporting period and no way to sort of reconcile it before you begin the next mileage reporting period and have another eleven months of that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So would there be, has so anybody modeled out what that would look like? So the downward slide of the dollars would look like would it almost be that if if you're going down like this with that, that if we continue to have that fee go to ACCD, then they know that they're gonna run out of money and it gives them a year to fly into a new reality.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, I mean you could structure it in different ways, that you know, it's going to be hard to model no matter what the scenario, because people will, even under this current language, will be able to pick a variety of options, and so in all likelihood, in the first several months, maybe even the first year, you're going to see less revenue, but overall more revenue will be coming in, and then once you're finally transitioned in 2029 because of the way people have their registration and inspection schedules, once you're fully transitioned in 2029, then you'll be able to much better estimate what the annual revenue will be.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So if I'm understanding correctly, Patrick, there's kind of like two decision points here. The first is the actual where the money is going to HCCD or the T Fund in that transition point. And then the transition point of me as the driver and my amount of money that I'm paying and how that is credited towards my future mileage based user fee costs.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That's right. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Are those two connected? Like why, like, why is the, why can't we just have it be you begin and you end your infrastructure fee on a rounded year schedule, and then we on the other side move the correct allocation. I guess I'm confused. It just feels like as a driver who will be impacted by this, this just seems like I'm already confused and I don't know why it matters to me where the money goes. I'm just trying to pay it.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, so I don't want to confuse the issue because the language here we've said basically that upon implementation of the MIOS based user fee, revenue goes to the transportation fund. The other piece of it as a driver, it's basically saying if you don't have two odometer readings past implementation date of January 2027, if you haven't closed one mileage reporting period, then and you get to the point of registration somewhere in 2027 or somewhere in 2028, then you'd pay just what you're already accustomed to, you'd just pay a flat fee. Then once you now have two odometer ratings, now you would be onboarded into the mileage based user fee and you'd begin paying in that way.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And if I had paid the fee in advance or I had paid the whatever, dollars 159 or $89.89 dollars that would go towards if I then got that odometer reading, and then it was way it was $87 worth of cost, I would have a credit of $2

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. If but that's only in the that's only in the circumstance it's only in the circumstance of and that language is laid out in here. It's only in the circumstance of where you have a mileage reporting period that's begun before your registration renewal.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Okay, and that's going be like I did two year registration, so I am the example of this. We register far in advance, so I think my preference would be if I was in this situation, I'd say, well, then I'd like to pay the flat fee and you take off the 8, whatever amount the 89 I get. You know, that I would put it towards that. Maybe I'm overtaking this, but. Go ahead.

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I just want to clarify the money going to ACCD, which is in place now, and the money going to the T Fund is not related to the consumer. Okay. Yeah, consumer doesn't get to make that choice. You will make that choice as to whether or not you are going to continue to fund the ACCD program as the folks who are paying the infrastructure fee decline. I think the agency, because of the way the language was written originally, that at the inception of a mileage based user fee, the monies will go to the T Fund is planning an eventuality whereby any portion of that fee that you have paid that starts before your two, you know, start and end mileage reporting period would be credited to your mileage period. Yes. And we would stop sort of on January 1 taking any of those $89 revenues and sending them to a different fund.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So I as a consumer don't pick the location, but essentially if I pay the $89 that's going to ACCD, but if I immediately start with mileage based user fee and don't pay that, it's all going to the T Fund.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Not after January 7. January 1. Then it would all go to the T Fund. At least that's their proposal.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Okay. So I guess then that's like two separate questions and I guess the way I would feel comfortable with the first one is like, does ACCD have the money it needs to, someone said earlier, it's like pay their bills.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I want

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: them pay their that is that for me. Yeah, maybe. Yep.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So then back to the, odometer reading. We or we had in a previous system odometer reading stuff? The

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: other question, why is it two odometer readings?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Start and did they go? Start with and then how much

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: you end with it, right? Right, but

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: you said, so we don't have, so when a car gets inspected, I know somebody writes down the abdominal reading somewhere, does that not get to AOT?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So currently right now with our annual safety inspection process, we collect odometer readings. So we do have that data. The problem is that it's not connected to the system that we're building within FAST, the registration and driver services, the core IT system. So the two odometer readings are the start of the mileage reporting period and the close of the mileage reporting period, and in this situation you might have, you know, towards the 2026, an inspection and you get an odometer reading, but what our vendor is saying is that it won't be ready at that point to incorporate all the historical data into the new system. So in effect we have to wait until there's those two odometer readings, the first sometime in 2027, the second sometime in 2028, and then people will be able to pay based on the close, you know, what's reconciled at the close of that reporting period.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, so let me ask a question in a different way. I just really want to understand. So if we have an odometer reading from like now, April 2026, can they use No,

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: that's, so that's, that's the thing that, that we did not understand when we initially proposed this language, is that we will not be able to use the existing odometer readings that we have in the other system, because we've not created the, or facilitated the connection between the two. We will be able to use that data in our communications with the specific vehicle owner to be able to say, well, look, this is what you traveled last year with your mileage, and so this gives you a sense of how much the fee might cost. But the quality of the data is not quite there. So there's different errors in the entry of the data that, you know, you can't really charge a fee based off of what hasn't been developed yet. While we're working with Parsons, the vehicle safety inspection vendor, is making sure that there are added controls there for the data so that we can be absolutely certain that that the data is can be validated before it comes into the new system so that you know when we're charging a fee we're limiting the amount of appeals that happen because someone has challenged what their dominant reading is.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I see. Okay, so you still will have the data, it's the accuracy of the data that's the issue?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: It's the accuracy of the historical data when the system is fully designed both on the safety inspection side of things and the sort of MyDMV registration and license side of things,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: then

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: you'll be able to see sort of year to year what your mileage has been, be able to see that history starting in 2027.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, right. So, okay, thank you, that's very helpful. Do

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: you expect that I would be, so to that point Patrick, do you expect that folks will be able to see that on the MyDME portal? I would be able to access that information to see generally what my estimated amount would be and all of that, or is there going to be a separate platform?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: The specific requirements of the system that we've written into the scope of work for the vendor will be to not in the first year because you have to have that first mileage reporting period close, but after that you will be able to see here is your historical data, how many miles you traveled last year, and then the estimated payment for the following year may be able to be based on that prior year's amount rather than just the, you know, dollars 154 estimate.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh well I need to get like an app or will I be able to use MyDMV as a website?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: It's able to be used just as a website right now, it's not Okay,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: so

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I don't need to like down, there's not going to be like a special third party vendor that I need to get an app from?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: No, it'll be fully within your MyDMV account, so you'll be able to do the various tasks that you already are able to do in addition to.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So the customer support, like, let's like, because I've struggled with my DMV in the past, for example, like denying a ZIP code, you know, like, really basic stuff like that. So would the customer support be from DMV staff people, or would it be through the account manager? Like, if I because I know and that was gonna be my main question to you, was there is like a judicial appeals process in here, and we are taking people's registration. So, like, what if they don't pay at a certain point is my understanding. So I do want to understand, like, what's the if you're having trouble with the billing process, what's the support? Where is that coming from? Is it the agency? Is it a vendor?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So I believe it's from the Department of Motor Vehicles, which might have support from their vendor. I would have to check-in with DMV staff on that, who specifically is providing the support right now on MyDMV items.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, know that I've had constituents who've attempted to get corrections on the MyDMV site and haven't been able to get quick follow-up over phone, for example. And I do have a lot of older electric vehicle driving constituents that I feel the website component of this will be the make or break on their ability to understand the payment process. So it's really actually very good to hear that the customer support side would be on the AOT folks and not like some other third party vendor out of another place. I appreciate that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So Patrick, basically I don't hear you saying lots of changes to that section. I think we do need to understand ACCD and that piece of it. If there are any changes, you should work with Damian to and highlight those to us.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Sure.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Anything else in here that you I

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: mean, so I would just say on the broader intent language in the latter sections of the bill where there's Damon had raised some question about whether he could do whether he could actually write it in a certain way that has effective into statute in 2029 and 2031 that that two broader transitions into a mileage based user fee. I think there needs to be more discussion around those sections, and what the realities of incorporating vehicles that already pay gas tax into the mix. Just sort of trading out battery electric vehicles for fuel efficient vehicles or plug in hybrids or, you know, conventional hybrids, whatever, isn't necessarily going to work because you're sections in there that deal with new problems that are created by, first of all, a system of gas tax credits, and then second of all, some of the other items that you've discussed in

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: One of the first things that comes to mind is in Virginia, they said 25 miles per gallon as the place where we'll be looking for a recommendation from you on where that happens and what happens around that piece.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Sure. So I but I do

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I would encourage you to work with Damian and highlight what you think needs to be for changes in that section to work us through.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, I think there is a lot that is also unknown because we are taking this first phase as a learning opportunity to be able to then think about how we responsibly transition larger numbers of vehicles into it. But I would

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: say to you, I think of it a lot like what we're doing right now with electric vehicles. We didn't, and we've just covered an area where we really didn't know that we couldn't read the odometer and have that transferred into a system. So what part of the beauty of this is you've had to come back to us for approval to get the rate set to do that. I think what we're envisioning is you come back and report and look for a stamp of approval from the legislature at steps to be able to get there. And we're trying to set up an orderly process whereby we bring back decision points to the legislature, and we together with the agency work to be able to do this, but in a timely manner to get to that. So I think you're totally aware of we're not going to know all the answers. Bring it back as we move forward at the steps, bring this back so we can help work through it with the agency.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Okay, so what I have to work on with Damian are some, well, more broadly with UVM and others, the flat fee on the payment options. The transition from an EV infrastructure fee to the mileage based user fee. There's the public outreach sections in a couple of different places to work on some more specifics there. And then I think what I'm saying is these sort of latter sections that I've just had a chance to look at this morning we need to talk through a little bit more and there are some dates that are it's not a big deal. We need to change some of those around, but sort of the bigger picture of where this is headed, I think we need to have some more discussion on that too.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep, and if you could work with Damien and bring those changes in. I think it's important for us to talk about if someone's paying the gas tax, reason we're part of the reason we can't move a 100% to this is we have out of state drivers here that are paying, if I get the number right, 28% of the gas tax, which is a pretty significant piece. We keep that in. You know, the Virginia model had that 25 miles per gallon. I think that's a question that UVM could be helpful with. It doesn't is that the right place to set a boundary?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So, mean, 25 miles to gallon, the mileage based user fee rate that UVM had proposed and that it seems agreeable to the committee is 1.4¢, and that's based on what the average vehicle is paying in this current fleet with an average of about 23 miles to the gallon. So you have, in effect, vehicles around 23 miles to the gallon are paying in fuel taxes the equivalent of about 1.4¢ per mile, And what I understand the committee's intent is to get more vehicles paying closer to that average.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: And so in effect, you've got a range of vehicles lower than 23 miles to the gallon that are paying higher amounts on a per mile basis, and then anything above, you know, 23 miles to the gallon are are starting to pay more than or pay less than $0.1.0.4 per mile. So it's all of those vehicles above 25 is probably a reasonable number given where we're expecting to be by the time this is implemented in terms of an overall fleet wide average.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, that brings up the question, should the language really be in here that the one the calculation for the 1.4¢ should should track with where you set that mileage, and is that possible within the language to do? Do you know what I'm saying, Michelle?

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, I know what you're saying. I think with the information we have now that tracks appropriately for the outside of the program, I think what Patrick is alluding to is that two years from now 1.4 may not be the number, 25 miles per gallon as a fleet average may not be the number. So there may need, you know, and if we don't have an inflator till later on, you know, you may want to consider do we make an adjustment. Am I correct in that assumption, Patrick?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I think with this program you have to start somewhere, and so starting now at the 23 miles to the gallon, essentially the 1.4¢ per mile makes sense, and any other vehicles that you incorporate into the system later on, you want to still incorporate into the system at that rate. But

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Actually, Patrick, in theory what we're trying to do is at 1.4 match the average miles traveled in So maybe instead of 23 or 25 or we set the 1.4 now for the star, but somehow in the language say what our goal is to match those averages that match the cost. And is there a way to write that kind of language?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, change to a rate over time is written in there as the 2,032 language, where once all vehicles or most vehicles, you know, over 25 miles to the gallon, where they would be in a system, and now you can start raising that to fit, you know, your needs in terms of inflationary

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, in the implementation language, should we say that as we move towards the implementation, part of the process that is you bring back a number to the legislature and say the 1.4 needs changing, the '23 or '25 needs to be this, and you build that into part of the implementation process.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes, think you can work that language into the plan that's supposed to be submitted in '28.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And then that way when you get to the date of 2032 and everybody is theoretically reasonably equal, then you start we have the discussion in here whether indexing makes sense at that point.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Is that Yeah, I guess I'm open to that as long as, again, it's a conversation about all field types.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, we're trying to get everybody in and treat everybody the same before we would do indexing. Yes.

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: And it's 12:30, so I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep. I think we're

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Now it's

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: There's a Patrick, we bugged you all morning, so thank you.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I can get back

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: to work.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you. Yeah. Gonna see if

[Michelle Boomhower (Director of Policy, Planning & Intermodal Development, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: you

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: can take this off.