Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Copies, but you're live. This is Senate Transportation. It is the March 22. We're here with, the agency Patrick Murphy and Damian Leonard from counsel to set this up. They the discussion in the house has been in vehicle miles traveled, how the public would pay, and what intervals it would pay. Would they pay up front? Would they pay at the end? And I've asked Damian and Patrick to highlight what the agency's position is versus what the House did so we can have a better idea of what I would like to come out of this discussion is some feeling of our committee on what we want Damian to put into a draft as a starting point for us. Know? Yeah. Why don't the two of you, in some form, explain what the difference is? And I think, Damian, you did send something out.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I sent it to you. I haven't sent it to the whole committee, but I can't forward it to the whole committee.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I posted this side by side. Should I not have

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So it's posted.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Great. So it's posted. Yeah. Yep. So that I sent out a side by side. So it should be on the committee's web page. It is an 11 by 17 document, so it will likely be somewhat small on your screens. I apologize for that. But otherwise, it was gonna be about 35 pages long. So this got us down to nine. So the the is basically has the two house proposals before you. The proposal on the right under the ways and means heading was incorporated into the bill by the house at second reading last night. So that's what'll be coming over from the house, assuming there are no changes at third reading this morning. The the first couple of sections here, you'll notice the the ways and means version calls changes the title to road usage charges. The reason for

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No. I'm sorry. My in Internet's not very good. Can you do you mind putting it up there?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I do not. I have a sharing authority right now. Oh. One second. I'm just back in. Darn.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Alright. So I'll just Do wanna look I'll just wait. Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna wait.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So I can print it out.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: See, I think she's grabbing them.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. She's grabbing the printer.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. So you'll

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: have it momentarily. Thank you. So the ways and means version is called road usage charges. We'll get to that because it contemplates a an additional surcharge for EV rental vehicles that are rented in Vermont. And this is to address the fact that a lot of rental vehicles are registered in all over the country, and so you wouldn't capture the the any

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: sort

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: of infrastructure fee or anything like that for these vehicles, but they will be driven on remote roads. So we'll get there in a moment.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: There you go. Thank you.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: The initial definitions, I'm not gonna spend too much time with. Just the the important ones to know are mileage reporting period, which is the time between annual inspections or the time between your most recent annual inspection and a terminating event, and terminating events, which are registering your your electric vehicle in another state, a change in ownership or lesseeship, or the termination of the electric vehicle's registration, which could be everything from an old electric vehicle that's been taken off the road, a car owned by a parent who has given up their driver's license that you're temporarily taking off the road and you might register later or a car that's been totaled or for some other reason, blood damage, something like that. So you're terminating the registration because the car's gonna be dropped. So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I just

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: have a question.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Mhmm. If you're married and you have a car that you purchased together and you're both on the title or

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Is that a terminating event if you get divorced?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I'm not saying We're not

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: change. So Dang. So if So my husband and

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I are both on the EV that we own, the Kona. Let's say, oh my gosh, our relationship or he passed away. I don't know. Or I passed away. I don't know what I'm trying to say. But

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: wrote the fee that would it be a terminating event when we ended our relationship, or would it be you'd have to only do it if, like,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: the title was changed or the registration was changed?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: The the way this is written

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: drive it a ton, you know, without my or vice versa. Yes.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So this does contemplate a change in ownership, so that would be, you know, retitling the vehicle in a different party. Same thing could happen if you had a personal vehicle that you then sell to your business and your business uses it. That's the way it's written right now. I invite Patrick to weigh in, though, to see if the agency has any additional comments or or thoughts on that issue. It's not something that came up in the house.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, I guess I'm just thinking, like, in a a litigation sense, if someone had a very large tax that they had to pay due to the driving of an ex partner, I could see some difficulty in getting the payment, first of all, and then but

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: That would be so that would be likely handled in the context of that, you know, divorce proceeding.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So when you're figuring out how the assets of the relationship are being split up, that's not something the agency is going to worry about

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: As much as the family court will worry about that. And so you may end up, you know, paying the fee that's due in a timely manner to avoid late payment charges, and then the family court will apportion when they do their accounting and break out who gets, which part of the marital assets that may also allocate costs, related to, you know, the sort of usage within the marital estate, but that would also be up to your own well, not your. But Yeah. Yeah. If you're where a party is in a divorce, it would be up for them up to them to argue that this shouldn't be allocated to me.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay. So I guess yeah. That's interesting. But they also delete the pay as you go thing. So I guess how does that like, if you if you were paid up, you know?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So I I haven't even gotten there yet. Sorry. So Or I am guys are manicured.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Can I just make a comment on the terminating event? It's I think it's terminating the that vehicle's, participation in this program. That's the that's what's being terminated.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: It's terminating that vehicle's participation in the program, with respect to that owner or lessee.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay. So the vehicle and the owner.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So for example, if senator White sold her electric Kona to another party, at that point, senator White would have had a terminating event and would pay off the m buff due for that reporting period. And then the individual or party that bought the Kona, assuming they're in Vermont, would register it, and they would start their first mileage reporting period.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So it's like a utility bill. Think of it that way.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Same thing as yeah. If you sell sell your house or you end your lease on an apartment, you pay your utility bill up through your end date, the new person pays when they start.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: But the I okay. I just am worried that people are they're they're still gonna keep the lights on or someone's still gonna be driving it. And where does that get allocated with the odometer reading? Like, when is there the odometer reading to get the like, if if at a terminating event, is there any requirements around? So You have to get an odometer reading to confirm

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: it When you're when you're selling or terminating the lease, there's an odometer disclosure form that has to be filed. Correct. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: K. Let's get back to Okay. So No. I am not not getting, you

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: know Yeah. I think what I'm being asked to do is go up to 10,000 or maybe 30,000 feet Yes. And speed up.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So So so we can we wanna definitely figure out the stuff down, but let's go from the 30 down, and we're gonna have to sort through all of this.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But can I ask,

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: are we is the purpose of this so that we are coming up with our own recommended amendment to this language potentially coming from the house?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're going to do a strike off.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay. So this is to help us understand what would be in a new draft that comes up.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: There will be a new draft that reflects what we like. Okay. Yeah. And I thought before he drafted it, we would say here's the direction Can that we went

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I make a recommendation around terminating events? Like, I mean, you know, like, I flag and say I don't think there needs to be more clarity of that definition at that point?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: There might be more that we don't know.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: There might be more. Yes. It it it absolute. Okay.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: They didn't pass the house last night. Did they get through it?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: They did. Second reading?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. That was the last no. It was, yeah, it was the last item in the house. Okay. They did get through it. So past second reading, the there was another portion that went on a roll call vote, but everything else was voice vote. And it it all passed. So let me just make a note here. And getting back to this here. So both both versions have the basic annual mileage based user fee, which contemplates paying your mileage based user fee within fourteen day or with contemplates having it assessed within fourteen days after the conclusion of your mileage reporting period, whether that's the full year or the terminating event shortened mileage reporting period, and then having the commissioner mail the assessment to the individual. If you remember from last year's T bill, mail now includes email and electronic notice to contemplate MyDMV. So if you have a MyDMV account, you can get an electronic notice of your assessment, and then gives individuals forty five days to either pay the full amount or to enter into an agreement to pay the fee in quarterly or monthly installments. My understanding from the agency is that this may not actually reflect their original intent, which was to to have folks pay lump sum or in the with the the house transportation option, there was also a pay as you go option where you would make interim disclosures of your mileage to the commissioner, none true up, and then a pay in advance option for newly registered vehicles. And my understanding is that the agency, and Patrick can comment on this, contemplated the quarterly and monthly payments with the estimated upfront payment where you you choose to do estimated payments rather than paying the full bill at the end of the year so that you can break that bill down into you know, so instead of a $154, you're paying, like, 12 or $14 a month. Does that make sense?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay. So, think what I'm hearing is the Transportation Committee on the House side created this pay as you go option language in the T Bill. And then I'm seeing this removed in the Ways and Means Amendment. And my understanding is that's probably because AMT lobbied to get that removed. No.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: No. Pay as you go was put in as a in the discretion of the commissioner that they could offer a pay as you go option. And then the other piece that was in here was newly registered vehicles to ensure that they're paying into the system. They would pay an estimated amount upfront with a true up at the end of the year. On further conversations with Patrick, it's come to my attention that the agency as I understand it, again, Patrick can comment here, that the agency actually envisioned the monthly and quarterly payments being an option for that upfront payment. So the vehicle if an owner chooses to make that $154 estimated payment, which is based on average mileage, Instead of paying the big lump sum, you can choose to pay smaller quarterly or monthly amounts. But if you choose to pay at the end of the year, rather than stretching that out for another year, their goal was to actually get that money within the the sixty day period that's provided here. So that within the sixty days at the end of the year, you paid your lump sum.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: At the end of the year, in arrears to your traveling versus So yeah. Think of

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: it the way you do your income taxes. You can make estimated payments or if you get

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So wait. The agency wants you to pay up front, and the language is saying you could pay it at once you've done the driving?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: There there are two options.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Pay in advance like you could do with your income taxes or like you do when if you're getting regular wages, they take a little bit out on every paycheck. And then at the end of the year, you true up with your income tax return. In this case, it would be the agency gets your odometer disclosure from your inspection, and they true up for you and either send you a bill for the balance or give you a credit against your upcoming payment. The other option is you get to the end of the year, and they look at the mileage you traveled and they say, you haven't paid anything. You know, and you traveled 11,000 miles, so that's gonna be a $154 under the current proposed fee. So that, of course, would differ by person. So you could choose either option. The way it was constructed in the house, and this is this was just a a shortcoming in the process to get here. We were very rushed, and I did not get down everything the agency wanted exactly. Right?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Well, we don't always have to do everything the agency wants every time. Like, just Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And, like

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Fair fair enough.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Can I just clarify, is house transportation were they it was just a misunderstanding, or was this a policy choice that they made

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: in brain? So this, I think

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: because it does sound like a policy choice in a way. It is a policy. Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So It is a policy choice. The change between transportation and ways and means was a policy choice. I'm not sure that transportation house transportation and I understood this distinction

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: From AOT. So I'm not sure they had

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: a chance to make that policy choice.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Confirm that with the not that I'm not saying you're not accurate in your description, but I do think we should confirm with have you confirmed that with the chair? Because I know there was some misunderstanding of this concept in general on house transportation, so I don't know if there was universal

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: this point, we're going to decide on what we want to do. I asked the chair on on transportation to come. They have a grandchild being born as we speak. A grandchild so being he couldn't come. He's at the hospital with them. So Okay.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: It's a really good question. What we need

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to do is we need to decide, what we feel comfortable coming out in a first draft. What do we like?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: But you've got the point that this is like, it was a misunderstanding and not a policy.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Is that disappointing?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: This is policy choice. The Oh. What I'm saying is from my perspective, I did not understand this. The draft was put out there. House transportation worked on the language that was put out there and kept refining it. And what you see here is what they got to. Yeah. I didn't understand this until after until basically today in talking to Patrick. So this is my understanding now. I don't know this. I don't think this was a policy choice on their part. They did want to offer multiple payment options.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's kinda

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: The lump sum, the quarterly, the monthly. The in talking to the agency this morning, I'm understanding now from Patrick that I may not have understood their intent when I put this language together.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So I want to just be clear that they got this language. They worked on it. We were working very fast to make crossover. And now I'm talking to Patrick more this morning about this as the dust is settling, realizing that I may have misunderstood that.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: And so I wanted to express that the the transportation started with my best version of what AOT had proposed. They made changes to it. They made policy choices, but not all of them not everything they had in front of them necessarily reflects what the agency's intent and proposal was, so they didn't necessarily consider everything. That was my only reason to bring that up, and I think I may have veered off into a ditch a little bit here. But

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, now we're gonna try to change

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: the concept. Concept. Okay. So the mileage based user fee in bottom of page three of your handout here. I've tried to keep things together so it's easy to see the things side by side. The house had had language on the report as you go or the pay as you go option. Ways and means did not. So it's basically just you calculate it by multiplying the miles traveled by the rate, which is set, in the next subsection at 1.4¢ per mile traveled. So like I said, for 11,000 miles, that works out to about a $154. It's about $14 per thousand miles traveled. So you can you can multiply out by your own mileage.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And they stuck with the rate that was proposed by

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. That was the AOT proposed rate. Yep. The what's missing in both of these is the house made the choice not to include, an annual inflation adjustment in the rate. So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So they didn't index it?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: It's not indexed. It would require coming back to legislature to adjust it.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, that's one way to do that.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, so that's also a policy choice for all of you. Mhmm. The exemptions, both sides had US government because constitutionally, we can't tax them. Ways and means added vehicles owned and operated by the state and vehicles that are used in short term rentals because there's a separate charge for them and the ways and means con construct. And the reason for that separate charge is because because the way rental car companies operate, they wouldn't have to register their electric vehicles in Vermont in order to rent them out here. And so you could just register them in any other state and then have them come on over to Vermont for transactions. You wouldn't be capturing those miles.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And why would the state now not pay registration fees?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So the state gas tax? Yeah. So the state does pay gas tax because that's baked into the price of the pump, but the state does not pay registration fees on state vehicles. And then so the choice was made in ways and means to exclude the state from this user fee. Again, that's a that's a policy choice. I think the what was expressed up there was that they didn't see the reason to just be doing interdepartmental transfers for the registration fees. But, again, policy choice for all of you.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And on the rentals, I'm just gonna wanna talk about that more. Yeah. Not not now. We're we're

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: just We'll we'll get to

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: it. Yeah. I see the I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: see the rentals as kind of a a small side issue on the side. Okay. But we'll we'll get down to what we need to. Yeah. So

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: the both of them provide that this is in addition to other taxes and so forth. There are some difference. They both provide an appeal of the amount of the assessment. So if you think there's a mistake on your bill, you can appeal it. The version that's coming over from the house provides a forty five day appeal period. The transportation version was fifteen days, and they both provide that you can get a refund if you've terminated your ownership and you're not you're following a terminating event. If you've paid this overpaid the state, you can get a refund for your overpayment.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So That's the true up.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: That's it is typically, the true up is just a credit against your next bill.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yep.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: But this way, if if you're, you know, say, you're getting rid of the electric vehicle and you're going over to a hybrid or a diesel or whatever electric vehicle. Or a different electric vehicle. All all sorts of options. Or you're moving to another state.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No. Not an option.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: The alright. The section forty three zero four just requires odometer reports at a terminating event and mileage reports as part of the inspection.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Going

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: on to page five, if you fail to pay the fee when it's due, you get your assessed interest at one and a half percent per month up to a maximum of 18%, which is one year's interest. And then the ways and means amendment adds in, permission for an individual to request a waiver of the interest and overdue fee at any time and allows the commissioner either upon receiving a request for waiver or on their own motion, so their own volition, to waive some or all of the amount of the overdue fee and interest. And it updates the language from due to excusable neglect to something that's a little more clear, which is that good cause existed for the delay or requiring payment would constitute an economic hardship. There's a penalty rate if you fail to file a report. So if the, basically, if the department can't determine your mileage, you get assessed at the ninety eighth percentile miles traveled, which is estimated to be like a 300 something dollar bill. So it's a significant increase there. And $43.00 7 in both versions, so bottom of page five, top of page six allows the commissioner to suspend or refuse to renew your registration if you don't pay your above. Forty three zero eight, this is the powers of the commissioner. The update between ways and means and house transportation was as we looked more closely at the statutes, we realized that the deleted portions of the house transportation version are all already covered in chapter two of title 23, which provides general sort of hearing and authority to conduct hearings and subpoena evidence and so forth to the the commissioner for purposes of carrying out the title. So if someone's contesting their bill and they have information on miles traveled that contradicts the department's information, you know, the commissioner can require them to provide that information as part of the appeal, that sort of thing.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And so that was removed. So

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: It's removed from this because it's deflected over what's already there. Forty three zero nine is the appeal process. Both versions have an appeal to superior court. The ways and means option adds a prior administrative appeal to the commissioner. So and, the commissioner has this authority under sections one zero five to one zero seven to appoint a hearing officer to hear your appeal so that you don't have to go through the process of a court proceeding, which is expensive and time consuming. And so this provides still provides the superior court, but provides that interim appeal. And then forty three twenty one, this is the new subchapter on road usage charge for rental vehicles. Essentially, what it does is it estimate it assesses an additional 1% on top of the current 9% under the purchase and use tax. So it becomes instead of 9%, there's 10% now charged on the rental charge for each EV rental in the state of Vermont, and 1% of that goes directly to the transportation fund.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's the way they handle the rental cars.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: The way they handle the rental cars. There's I don't think Logan, we don't have any modeling on actual mileage by EV rental cars, so this is just an effort to collect something. The changes in section 20, this is just updating the existing infrastructure fee because it's still called the TV infrastructure fee even though EVs won't be paying it anymore. So just changing that. And then the other piece here is it deletes the allocation of those funds for the ACCD level one and two charger program that they've they've been providing grants and support to add level one and two charging ports at workplaces and multiunit dwellings. And this means that the money would just go to the transportation fund. Section 21 provides the provides a transition. They're very similar. The big difference is that the ways and means transition only gives you a credit for your infrastructure fee if your initial mileage reporting period. So your next inspection is before you renew your registration. So in other words, it's within the time that was covered by your infrastructure fee. So they'll

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: apply difference between the house and the SNAP?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So The the house and lease In the in the insurance. In house transportation's version Sorry. In house transportation's version, every every EV would receive an $89 credit for their initial mileage reporting period from their last infrastructure fee. So, basically, your last infrastructure fee would be credited against your initial bill for miles miles. Generous the first time you do this. And the the second version says we're only going to do that if your registration is your next your registration renewal is after you start your first mileage reporting period.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Is it generous or is it just not double charging people? Like

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, so the some overlap. So Yeah. So the the ways and means, I think, is technically the one that's not double charging. And the the transportation is maybe administratively simpler because everyone gets an $89 credit, but some folks are gonna be getting a credit for a period that's after they actually paid that infrastructure fee for. So in an if the infrastructure fee didn't go away, you'd be paying another $89 at your registration. But instead, what's happening is that you won't pay that $89 at your registration. Instead, you'll start paying your end off when you get to your next inspection. Does that make sense?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Understood it when you first said it.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So You'll have a year of not paying.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: In the No.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So the in the in the ways and things version, because there is no pay in advance or pay as you go option

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: There would be a year with no revenue from the envelope. So and I'll I'll let AOT testify as to their concerns about that. But Good. Under the ways and means construct, there's no m b o revenue in 2027. Or essentially none. There could be terminating events, but yeah. The transportation version would have allocated any revenues in fiscal year 2027, so January through June, from advanced payments or short mileage reporting periods where someone has a terminating event to the town high general state aid for town highways. That was taken out in the ways and means because they're not anticipating any revenues. And then ways and means added a report back on an implementation plan for the pay as you go option. So they're not opposed to that, but they their feeling was that putting it in the statute before it was fully mapped out didn't make sense. Instead, they wanted to report back so they could do additional legislation, And then they make a transfer of 2,200,000.0 from the TIP fund to the transportation fund. 1,700,000.0 of that would be allocated to general state aid for town highways, and this relates back to their deletion of language earlier in the bill related to using excess local option tax revenues to pay into general state aid for town highways. So in lieu of that, they did this one time 1,700,000.0 transfer, and then the remaining $500,000 That's would just go straight to the transportation fund.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: This gets into revenues and where we are. It isn't think the first question that I hear for us is, would we do an upfront charge and or would we do the end of the year charge in this? And the upfront charge would require truing up at the end. Would we at the true up point, if we went in that direction, would we do it a credit or would we expect them to pay back money? So my first question would be feelings about upfront charge versus paying at the end.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Paying at the end? Are those our only choices?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Do you have a third choice?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Well, do feel like

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: people are used to paying for gas and for utilities monthly. That's very standard way to pay and people budget monthly. So if there's an option to do it monthly you could even have an automatic payment on your credit card. I think that would be the best thing. For the residents, for the contractors.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I would just say if I pull up to the gas pump at this point, I'm probably paying $45 to $50 a fill up. And if we're talking about $150 a year that you're going to collect out of debt and you do it monthly, you're probably, you're not paying $15 a month. And I'm wondering, would we go to monthly or would we do, say quarterly?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And if we do, typically if you pay in advance you get a break, right? I mean in most things. When you pay in advance don't there's an incentive that's a lower price or some 10% or 5% or 2% but there's some financial incentive. But I just think with automobiles people are really used paying when you use it. But that's so But if you do it at the end it all comes due. Right and sometimes it's hard for people to have that chunk of money at that time. But is the reason not to do that the administrative cost?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I guess what is the what was we didn't hear from patients Patrick, before

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: why don't you tell us what the agency was thinking?

[Patrick Murphy (AOT State Policy Director)]: Thank you. For the record, Murphy, state policy director for the Agency of Transportation. So our hope is to be able to provide as many options for payment as possible, to be as flexible as possible. And recognizing that with the gas tax now, people essentially pay as you go and that for some folks with lower incomes it may be difficult to pay all at once, whether that's upfront or at the end. I think there is some middle ground here between the the two versions of the language that Damian alluded to, which is that people could have the option to pay at the end after all the miles have been calculated and a fee is applied. But if they want to pay upfront or if they want to pay on a monthly or quarterly basis, they would first have to have an estimate. We don't have mileage from the prior reporting period, so we'd have to base that monthly or quarterly payment on something, and the something would be, as we've proposed it, dollars 154, the average of what a gas vehicle pays in gas taxes. So as Senator Harrison alluded to, it's similar to what people might do for utility payment, maybe for estimated income tax payments where you begin with some sort of estimate and then it's reconciled at the end. In all cases, the final amount that people will pay will be based on the actual mileage, and it would be at that point of registration after the mileage reporting period closes. So you could have a situation where you decide to pay a $154 upfront and not think about it until you get to your next registration, or you could say, I'd rather space things out and pay on a quarterly or monthly basis, and maybe you're then paying, you know, 12 something dollars per month, or you could say, I'd rather just wait to see what my mileage will be, and then pay at the end of the reporting period, and then there's no reconciliation needed at all. So I think that that would be the, you know, and then, of course, the agency would would like to be able to offer if the IT development supports it, the option to pay as you go, which would be, you know, somebody basically taking a photo of their odometer reading and paying as they take, say, a long trip and and being able to stay on top of it in that way. We'd like to to offer as many options as possible to to make this as convenient to people as possible. We don't know yet whether that latter option will be available by January 1, so we wanted language that would allow for that possibility, but didn't direct us to do it. In the other cases, we know that the system requirements that we've specified for the contractor will be able to meet those statutory requirements, and so we would like to stick to the language that would allow for monthly and quarterly payments in advance, or ending up having it reconciled at the point of registration. The ways and means language, I think, by allowing for a payment plan beyond that time. So having that mileage calculated, a fee calculated, being assessed, and then spacing payments out over the following year creates more issues both in terms of compliance, because compliance is envisioned at the registration renewal process, but also there's just likely to be a number of edge cases that come up in the succeeding year, which through a terminating event, divorce, whatever it might be, will end up creating another sort of layer of administrative costs to to figure out how to deal with those situations. So our preference would be to to provide as many options as possible.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Can you can you tell us what way we mean? Do you want to offer this option?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So I I can't speak for all ways and means, but my understanding from the discussion was that there were concerns about having folks pay upfront for miles they haven't traveled. And so the way the language came over to them the way the language came over to them that pay in advance option was a lump sum rather than what I explained earlier that I I think I misunderstood the agency's intent when I drafted it. And so it made it through as just a lump sum without the quarterly and monthly options. And then the pay as you go option, they they did like that option, but their sense was that because it's been put into the, you know, sort of the parameters for the for the third party administrator to develop the IT. But because that IT hasn't been developed, they didn't wanna put it into statute and leave it simply in the discretion of the commissioner without further legislative review. And so that don't think they were against pay as you go. The pay

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: as you go is based on actual miles.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Based on actual miles. But yeah. Their their concern revolved around having folks be required to pay a 100 Are they $2 something for

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: a two year registration fee?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: The you mean the current infrastructure fee?

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: No. Right now, you can do you can pay for your registration one year or you can do two years. Yep. And I would be paying your registration ahead of time per vehicle, you know, that you would have. That seems like something they would object to do. So was to fall.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right? I can I can't answer that for them?

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: They didn't bring that up?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: No. They they were just concerns expressed about paying the having to pay a lot of money upfront for this one. If you drive an internal combustion car, you know, you pay whenever you fill up your time.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: That's all. Not required.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: But the that understood. Okay. I I can't Recognize. Yeah. I I am I'm not a member of the Ways and Means Committee, so I can only share sort of what was expressed on the record, and I can't can't speak for the membership.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Okay. Okay. But that

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: was before the loan that was a lump sum option. Right? Yeah. Not the pay month, you know, once a month quarterly.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. Months maybe. Yeah. So they didn't entertain that. Assuming it's okay with this committee, if you want to look at a revised version of the agency's proposal, I can have that sort of pay in advance with the option of lump sum or selecting a monthly or quarterly payment for the year. You know? And that that sort of gives folks the option. And then at the end of the year, the way the true up works is assuming you're keeping the vehicle, you get a credit for your over or under amount. The and and then that would just be applied against your your next payments there, or or you get an additional assessment. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it could be like if you think of your cell phone bills, it's generally a flat amount, but then say you travel to Canada and you don't have an international plan, so you pay by the day up there. And so when you get back from your trip the next month, you get a bill for, like, an extra extra $60 because you have five days in Quebec.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: But just to be clear, I am I am paying for miles that I'm driving out of state if they're on my odometer. So if I give this would really make me as an EV driver say, I'm not taking my car on our road trip, you know, because

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Well likely to take the train.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. But

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: versus an EV, like, that's like, the gas car versus a train is a real debate.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: To to be fair, you're not necessarily paying with the gas tax where you buy the gas. You're not necessarily driving in the same state that you buy the gas in. So for example, you take a gas car that's got 500 miles of range on a tank. You can do a round trip to Portland, Maine, and back from Montpelier, buy your gas in Montpelier, drive to Portland, Maine or Boston and back, and then refill in Montpelier. And you've never paid apart from the tolls in New Hampshire. You've never paid a penny in those two states. And the same could happen for someone in Boston coming up to ski at, you know, or Glen or something like that. They buy gas in Massachusetts, and they don't pay a penny in the amount. So then there is no perfect reflection even now Okay. As to where you pay your your road usage charges except for toll roads. That's toll roads are the only sort of road usage charge that's directly tied to using the road you're driving.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Changing the whole the paradigm is completely shifting because Paradigm issue. I'm already paying for fuel as an EV driver. This is a mileage fee. That's not a fuel fee. Those are different concepts. So the idea of the tank range is a totally irrelevant analogy

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: because we are talking

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: about isn't the whole point that it's supposed to be you're paying for the miles that you're traveling?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: When the gas tax was created, it was designed to compensate for your usage of the roads because mileage was fairly uniform at that point. Tax. It's the tax. So we're you there are other taxes that you potentially pay. Sales tax on gasoline. Mhmm. You pay taxes and fees for your electricity at your house. But the the gas tax itself, the per gallon tax, was initially designed to be a a essentially a usage charge that captured usage of the roads by cars that were all getting roughly the same mileage. Now we have this huge range where you can be driving, you know, an f two fifty or f three fifty that's getting, around 20 miles a gallon, or you could be driving a Prius that's getting 60 miles per gallon, but you're still paying that, whatever it is, 32¢ a gallon to the safe, even though for the same trip, you might buy significantly fewer gallons for one vehicle than the other. With EVs, you can get because the paradigm is shifting and the technology is improving, you can charge per mile traveled. But it it it's important to note that our current usage charges are not perfect and tying it to the jurisdiction that you're traveling in. It's the jurisdiction where you buy the fuel for the miles you travel that gets captures the money for the mileage there even if, you know, you you essentially, you fill up and you know, or if you do like some people do on the road trip, you fill up where the gas is cheap.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yep. New Hampshire.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. New Hampshire, Ohio, other places like that where the gas is cheap. And then you travel through other states where the gas is not as cheap.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: The other layers, you're missing the federal picture. There's no federal MVA. So there's no like, the majority if it just I I think, unfortunately, just I'm getting I'm worried that although I appreciate, like, the logic of what you're saying, I think the reality of what driver decisions will be made, you're creating a setup where people are making financial decisions that are not good for all of the environmental like, all of the other goals we're

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: putting in,

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: but that's

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: an argument.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I I can't argue that policy with you. I just all I'm trying to express is that legally, both systems we have are imperfect. They don't.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. And that's where I would totally agree. Hopefully, what what we end up with in some period of time is if we get everybody on miles traveled, if we can get everybody to that system, it's going to be imperfect to get there, but we're imperfect then. It's I'm hoping that what we can get to in our thinking, in the path that we're trying to set up, something that at the end will be failed.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I agree. So just to follow-up on that, so if there are systems, obviously you know, you can know exactly where the car traveled, but those are a lot more expensive and so that would be all of us paying that additional expense, that's a consideration. So just going back to how we would charge, I really appreciate the chance for having flexibility. That's huge and I think there's going need to be a lot of outreach on this and people are just so that folks understand and I think we should look at the monthly model to make sure that we have that. I'd actually like to hear from power companies or just on what kind of, you know, defaults, you know, how often do customers default because

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: my concern Disconnections kind thing.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, yeah and just don't pay their bills. So I think if we are gonna do the monthly based on what miles you do, I think there should be a little bit of a cushion at the beginning of someone's term in this process, like a deposit and some utilities do that, it's like $30 for example, just to make sure that you don't end up owing a lot at the end of the year and then you're going to have to pay fees, know, collection fees and

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: it'll The just be another only thing I would say about this is if it's a $150, for a lot of people now that's no more than 3 Phillips.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I understand but you do the Phillips one at a time. And so just having a chunk of money is the hard part for a lot of people. And the chunk at the end, yes, so actually while gas is expensive, that's a good time to do this, to implement this so we can show that overall you save money with an EV.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And it won't just be 150 for everybody. We saw in the report that UVM did that rural EV drivers are going to have like $400 So it's like, there is

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: You you

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: would have to put on 26,000 miles a year to get to 400 to $400.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. That's rural drivers going commuting. Yeah.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: But

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Every day.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: That's a lot of that's a lot. I mean, I I I drive more than any rural person, maybe as much, and I figured out mine to be about $2.80. That's about 22,000 miles a year. That's 8. And $80.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Well, we can look at that report again. I mean, they could

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: It's it's $14 per thousand. Yes. Drop. 14 per thousand.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So whatever they drop.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think what I'm hearing here is if we're gonna do payment period, if we're gonna do the upfront thing, and then there's gonna be a truing up. Is because you can't if we wait till the end of the year, you can't do a monthly or you can't do portal bank.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But are you saying we won't do monthly?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No, no. I'm not saying anything on that. I think what I'm hearing is we would do the upfront and we would leave it to the discretion of the agency to come up and what they're talking about is monthly court or legal harassment. Does that make sense to people?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: At this point, yes. That makes sense. But but I do wanna talk more about the details.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: We'll we'll be

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: taking a break into this.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're just trying to get him to get us a draft Okay. That he can go through. Okay. Is that Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Alright.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So what We're gonna do the detail. The next question I heard was would we do a credit or would we expect the agency to send money back?

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Credit.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Money back. That's So the the bill constructs both constructs from the house provide a credit against your next bill. Or if you are getting rid of the vehicle, then you get a refund. But that's the only instance where you would actually get a a check-in the mail.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just that. I don't I wanna understand the credit because I don't want people to go into a hole.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I just If we're gonna get a draft of it, does that sound some place, like something that you I would consider it, sure. I

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: would like to see the details on what they proposed. I wasn't really clear on the changing from the fee to the end buck from the infrastructure fee, how they have that money going.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So I don't know.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: You can either explain it or put it in your

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And I I need to touch base with so that

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Maybe there's a little pie chart that says, like, this time, this money are are they? Yeah. Make one and money go into the local roads program, so it didn't quite. So I don't know if that

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So that I can put together a a chart with or Logan can, with a couple of different options. But, basically, there there's really two options under the ways and means constructs for folks who already own an EV at the end of the year and are going in have a currently registered EV going into twenty point seven. The first is so we'll we'll use let's say, registration renewal is March. If your inspection, your first inspection in '20 or your inspection in 2027 is in January or February, so before your registration renewal, then you get an $89 credit against your first m buff. So you have a credit applied to your

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: total $89 in January.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Because you you paid $89 the prior year, and you're still in that. You've used

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the structure calendar year. Calendar year period.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: If your inspection on the other hand so, again, the registration is March. If your inspection is after that registration date, whether it's a day later or six, seven, eight months later, you don't get that credit. That's the ways and means construct. Yeah. We can just see

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: a time charter. It will

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: be If you pay your $89 and your registration came due in December, and you pay and I paid the full $89, and then in January, the m buff goes into place. Right. You have your car inspected in January? I have my car inspected, and I I start the MBUF thing. Under the ways and means proposal, am I out? No.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Under the ways and means proposal, because you won't renew your registration until December, that inspection, if you get it inspected in January, is that's the start of your mileage reporting period. Yep. And it falls within infrastructure fee year.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So if if your infrastructure fee year from your last registration before 2027 includes your fur your inspection in 2027, you're getting credited $89.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And they don't try to prorate

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: it or something. It's like, you know, it's just a flat $89 credit for everyone so that they don't have to

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And the money well, the money still goes the same way. Does it ever seem like what you were when

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: you were explaining? There So the time where they move towards the money. Right. Well, right now, the way it's set up and so this changes. Right now, the way it's set up is under March, that money goes to transportation fund to then be transferred to ACCD for the level one and two charger program.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Right.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Depending on your effective date on the change there will affect whether that money is just getting deposited in the transportation fund for transportation uses generally or specifically to be sent over for this grant program at ACCD. I think I I have to look back at Let me just

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: I just assumed it would all transfer at January 1 when I'm about this. Think the the effective date

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. All of that takes effect January 1. So those those infrastructure fees are going to ACCD if

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: they were paid out in 2026. So starting January 1, even if you haven't had your inspection yet, it would go to T Fund. And then you're getting a credit for it. Yeah, you're getting a credit

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: for it. But yeah. I think

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: it makes sense just to make the pay and then have that all go to the teeth under that one.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Sorry. It's

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Anyway, it's fine.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Was here on our. Yeah. And I'm but he got bumped.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh. I'll see y'all next week. Thank you. So the yeah. Under the the way this is set up coming out of the house, there is a credit going to folks for money that's been paid out that is now that is going to be transferred to a CCD for the level one and two charger program. In 2027? No. So that that transfer ends 01/01/2027, but no one's paying the end. None of these EVs are paying that infrastructure fee anymore in 2027. But they would be getting a credit for the infrastructure fee they paid in 2026 in some cases. That It's something that you may want to look into more closely. So there there is a disconnect in there about about that. And you can if you change the effective date on that infrastructure fee change to July 1, then the folks who renew their registration in the last six months, their money just goes to the T Fund, period. So that's but that's something you you may wanna look at and consider. I don't I don't know if the house heard from ACCD on that funded.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: They're not. Wanna hear from them.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: I wanna get an update of what they've been doing anyway. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. I certainly don't want them to have a project in the pipeline, and we cut off the the funds. Or they have to refund it.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. Yeah. I yeah. I don't know. I I was not in the house every day, so I don't know if they heard from them or not, but it's I was not present. Spend your

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: meetings reviewing the case.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. Everyone else does it.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: And

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we will I think we'll wanna hear from you. What would you like to do with this?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Are you asking what's it about?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm asking the table. On the feed part Or on the Well, on this particular piece with the $89 and we've also got at the end of the year would we do a credit or would we do the because that's what

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I don't have a particular answer to that, but I know if you register your car, get your plate in the spring and you sell it two months later, you don't get a refund on that. I mean, so that's one way they work. So I'm not opposed to giving somebody, the kind of reimbursement for the fee they pay because it's a little different on an EV.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, we've also got the whole construct of going through the year, picked and a monthly or a quarterly charge, and there's a truing up at the end if you've got a credit, would we just roll that into the next year, or would we expect there'd be a truing up? Again, can the credit apply to your registration. You know, can you go to your MyDMD now? Yeah, well, my income taxes, if I overpay, I can always roll it into my next quarterly payment or I can get a refund. So I can do it both ways.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: I I would like to understand a little better, but I like the idea that you get a credit. I don't know if we have to do a refund because most people that, I mean if somebody needs to stay too bad I guess. But if you're gonna have some kind of vehicle, you're gonna have some kind of bill from DMV that you could use the credit and then giving somebody a $20 refund. Might be not worth the administrative costs. I think it

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: would be administratively really tough. Yeah. The credit would

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: be the way I would go. And it's going to the T Fund, so it's helping the roads.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, and then we get into the $89 how Well I'm not

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: supposed think both are if you overpay on the, if you do the quarterly payments and if you have this where you pay the 89 and then you have the inspection that 89 would be part of that credit.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I'm for a refund. I

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: mean I disagree with it. I guess I'm just like confused about where we are decision points on this because I have some like general perspectives I feel like there's a lot of my opinions are dependent on the answers to other questions that we have not resolved. We're looking to get a draft together. Yeah, so I guess I'm like, I would love to share my perspective on, I think the two questions you're asking, credit or refund and then like upfront payment versus end of year payment. That would be dependent to me on the equity and equality of it compared to gas drivers. So you have to not think about this just as EV drivers getting a refund or EV drivers getting a credit. This is supposed to be for all gas drivers eventually. So we are setting up a concept for all drivers. So I just want to be clear that if we're talking about this, these are discussions that won't just affect me as a driver, but will affect anyone who owns a vehicle. So I don't think that the decisions we're making are being made in that frame. And I am generally not comfortable presenting a decision that I personally have on those things until I get more clarity on what we're doing. You told us the ways and means amendment. No, the House presented it so there's no indexing of the MF, but there's also no long term all vehicles being a part of it. Like, who gets I guess those bigger questions.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Indexing was the next question we're We're gonna get looking to get a draft in this. What I would say about it sounds to me like there was enough people around the table with we would rather do upfront because upfront you can we could do a monthly or a quarterly charge. The back end, if we wait till the end of the year, they're gonna owe everything in one lump.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: It it is does that No. Well, I mean, we'll have to I mean, would be good to have scenarios. I think we should keep most of what we're talking about in play, but when I was thinking monthly, I was thinking that it wouldn't be all of it. It wouldn't with the prospective versus pay as you go. Was thinking it would be pay as you go. Yeah. With a deposit at the beginning just to make sure people don't run into bad situations, that's a lot of detail at this point. But we can do that with a couple of these scenarios.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, there's two. You do the upfront or you pay incrementally. Wherever the incremental goes. And then at the end, the question is, do you have a credit or you do have a credit? And what I would say for the envisionment is that whatever we're doing for electric is going to be plug in hybrids, this is going to be regular hybrids, plug in hybrids, and then gas powered vehicles are all gonna live within this that we're setting up for electric cars now. That's it so we're gonna make that flow through all of the attempt to try to bring everybody on board.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes, and so I was actually going to suggest at a later point that we not just use VEV as the type of vehicle that we somewhere say vehicles you know, subject to this are blank, and then when we start adding other categories, we just need to change that one sentence in the statute, but that's it.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Or we can just lay out that we want to go into effect for everyone.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Or like the intent is

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: They're the

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: not even close to being ready for that.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, then I think that's a problem.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Well, it's not a problem if you're not ready for it. We're still paying the road users via the palm.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. But if you're an efficient car, you're you're the main driver of our cap

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: of our revenue going down.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So there's this whole area of, like, Priuses. Like, if you really wanna get into it, that's our biggest drop in revenue. And they're the group that we are not even in discussion of how

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: capture We're the gonna get there.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So I guess

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: The plan is to get there.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I guess it's just I'm asking why we can't have that in this language. Like, and I think that perhaps the agency disagrees with it, but it So

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I can't speak for the agency, and I I would invite Patrick to do that. But there is every possibility if if you want the language to include a phase in Yeah. Or other sort of implementation, I can draft that. And it it could be as simple as adopting a definition of, you know, subject vehicle or covered vehicle, something like that that then gets updated over time so we don't have to rewrite.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Because we we're The whole thing? We're already We're we're we're yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I'm I love that idea.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're working on a draft that would Right. Bring everybody.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. And I'd love to include that in that draft.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Or we could have an intent. It's gonna be we are only right now talking about electric because that's the first stage in, but this is going to include everything.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And I guess what I'm saying is I'd like that spelled out in the bill with a timeline about how we get there.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're gonna get there. It's gonna be in front of you to talk about an implementation of plug in hybrids, hybrids of gas. We're gonna lay this out. Will say to you what I've asked them to draft is something that would say over the court and and we can argue over the date, over the next five years, we in stages will bring everybody along.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, did you oh, you were asked to have that drafted.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I've asked to have that drafted. Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I can't share that without sharing

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: it first. You don't you don't have

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: You just have to understand.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: He doesn't have the draft ready. Yeah. I've for it and we went through it all. So that's coming next.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So that's really helpful. Obviously I didn't know that information. He's very good at client confidentiality. I've tried

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the committee, that's been the intention and I think I've heard from everybody at the table that we're good to go with doing everything and bringing everybody on board in the next few years.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yes. I think what I'm asking for, and it sounds like it's already in the works, is to have drafted language to have a stepped implementation plan into that in the new language we see. So I don't need to request Damien

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to draft that. You're gonna have that language hopefully will be totally in front of you with all of this and backing it by next Wednesday.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay, yeah, had not understood that you had already had a requested draft to Damien on top of what we're seeing now. Yes. So that's new information. What are the other pieces that you've asked him so that I don't have to make a separate request? Well, or just tell

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: her if there's it's already Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I don't care when he tells her. Okay. Yes. That we had So

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: what what I've been asked to draft Okay.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And it

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: so this you know, I'm sorry for keeping my mouth shut, but this is always a delicate dance where I I don't wanna inadvertently share something. This is all you to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: get a draft in front that will reflect the direction this committee and all up for change. Simple.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So I've I've been asked to prepare a full draft that more accurately reflects the agency's sort of vision for how they can implement this, correct some of the errors that I had in the initial draft, and does the cleanup that the house did on some of the things that were in the initial draft that were duplicative where I pointed out, you know, we deleted, like, two pages of language in Rules and Means that was duplicative. It's been asked to include a five year step implementation with transition language from that the agency has roughed out and that I'm gonna work on that maps out variety of things for the implementation strategy and ties into their federal grant requirements. And so it includes methods to account for in state and out of state vehicle miles traveled, methods for accounting for in state vehicle miles traveled by vehicles that are registered in another state, integration and cost for alternative mileage reporting methods introduction. I would

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: say in that integration, I I suggested maybe the Virginia model where they have a flat fee, they have a quarterly fee, and then they had at the end, they also have a device in the car choice because the device is where if you were elected into that, you can tell exactly whether they're in state or out of state travel.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, but it's expensive. Very expensive, but we'll talk about that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We'll talk about that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just to- Yeah, it's good enough. I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: would say I erred on the side that what we heard from every state is every state had choices. Yes.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And I think, you know, if you choose that device and you want to pay for it because you're going to Florida every year.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It's your choice. K. Yeah. Keep going.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: See, you

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: can start with this. This is great.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Well

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: well, we have to get

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we have to get the graph together for everything, and the decisions about how you pay upfront are gonna play into all of that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And Yeah. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So there there's yeah. To to understand this, there's the initial sort of implementation for EVs. There's a staged implementation over five years for light duty vehicles. There's this report back from AOT and consultation with agency of digital services on the things I just mentioned, plus potentially expanding to medium and heavy duty vehicles. So these are vehicles over 10,000 pounds

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Huge issue.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: And potential rate designs based on vehicle weights because you then you start having bigger impacts.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And this was actually the big point that they highlighted in the UVM study. I highlighted it, but we definitely need to go over that. They said their main finding at the end, the biggest thing that was missing was that there was, I was going to read it because I literally just read that on average this occurs because commercial medium and heavy duty vehicles would on average pay less. So they're basically making the point that the AMBA policies that were created are at least equitable. Like their least equitable factor is that heavier vehicles are causing the majority of problems with road weight, but are least impacted by an M BUF. That was like their final decision. So we need to look into that.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And for the for the initial period, those vehicles will continue paying gas and diesel tax. The this envisions looking at that as a potential option to bring them on board, but not within the five year stepped out because there isn't currently a plan for what those fees would look like. And then addressing issues related to fuel taxes, revenue sustainability, carbon reduction, etcetera. And they would propose filing the transition strategy, the full transition strategy on or before 10/15/2028 with an interim report for additional recommendations on the transition for plug in hybrids, hybrid electric, and highly fuel efficient internal combustion light duty vehicles.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And the issue there is October '20 '28, they have to file the report with the feds. And so some suggestion about how they report back to the legislature in the summer before that.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And there is the interim report to next January with additional recommendations. And that's envisioned as an oral report so that they don't have to draft a big paper report. They can just come into the committee. The other pieces that I have in here, and so the the that, summer report was, proposed for with, either JTOC and Ways and Means and Finance or the Transportation Committees and Ways and Means and Finance since this is a where transportation and tax and fee policy merge, you you run into that overlapping jurisdiction issue. The And then continuing to how do you integrate this for vehicles that have an internal combustion engine part of their motive power. How do you integrate this in the interim? Do they pay a mileage based user fee rate that takes into account the gas tax that they're paying too? So that's one of the things that's looked at in here because the gas tax will continue to capture out of state vehicles too.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So You don't want to lose that 28%.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So that's and I think one of the other states is doing this with prorated amounts. So if you have Virginia does

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: if your car is rated 25 miles per gallon or less, you don't pay, but it's graduated when you go above that.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And so doing something like that for vehicles as they transition into the mLoft. And then we've we've mentioned choice already. Implementation date is 2031. And

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: The only thing that and I would say is I think what and Patrick, you can comment on it, have to say something about

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: outreach. Yes.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And the agency would have a plan, but I think what we heard from every state was outreach is important. Yes, early enough. Are we missing anything, Patrick?

[Patrick Murphy (AOT State Policy Director)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So as part of our grant work, we have a substantial budget that is targeted exclusively to public outreach and engagement on this. So that would be a normal part of how we roll this out for electric vehicles. So no, I don't think you're

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But I mean, in all of the stuff that just got laid out, is there anything else that we have missed that needs to be in a draft for us to go through as a committee? No,

[Patrick Murphy (AOT State Policy Director)]: I mean, so the administration is proposing this as a fee on electric vehicles because that's a finite amount of vehicles where we can make sure that if we work to get this right, This would allow once implemented for thinking about how other vehicles might be incorporated into the program, but that's not what we are proposing at this time. But when you do think about just bringing it back to the central question here about the language that you are considering, when you do think about how vehicles that are paying any amount of gas tax right now would be incorporated into the future, the ways and means language just doesn't work. You would not be able to fit those kinds of vehicles into that framework because you'd have people who are paying gas taxes as they go, and then other vehicles that would just be paying almost a year later than when the miles were incurred. So the the more analogous option is to be able to, yes, pay at the end if that's what people choose, but if people decide that they are better off by either paying upfront or paying on a monthly or quarterly basis to provide that option, so that they're not behind and they don't have a huge payment at the end of the year. That would be the more analogous situation that would allow for the incorporation of more vehicles, and what you've talked about in terms of if the fuel tax were to remain in place, then there's a system that could be devised to apply those fuel taxes as credits, what are estimated against what is owed for a road usage charge. So the language that you have before you around the ways and means, I'm just stressing, would not work in terms of thinking about how to future proof this for other iterations of a program.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Does that work for

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I don't understand you. You're talking about all the language, you're talking about some of the language.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. She he's talking about upfront payments versus back end payments. Yeah. And and that I think, you know, whether it's quarterly or can I ask this, Patrick, if we go with a monthly charge? I've got some people that are older that don't like stuff coming out of their bank account and they wanna pay in a check. Would we really want people doing $15 a month or less in checks coming into DMV?

[Patrick Murphy (AOT State Policy Director)]: I mean, I think that's something that we have to think about in the language that we've provided, that sort of thing would be allowed. I think we also have to consider how many people actually would take advantage of that, and whether just providing the option at least helps for those few people that do and doesn't necessarily overburden the administration of the program. So I think that kind of thing will come up during the development process, and then what we learn through these first few years of implementing the program for electric vehicles. That is in part one of the reasons why you would focus just on one group of vehicles, not only because they haven't been paying their full share into the transportation fund, but because you don't want to just roll this out to all vehicles without fully understanding all the different edge cases that are bound to come up through the implementation of the program.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So just another parameter that we haven't talked about is privacy. Mean we would talk about it when we have the little monitors that tell you where you went, but some people want be able to use cash and you can do that when you buy gas. So maybe we can't take cash, but I think we should be ready to answer why we can't and have high level of privacy in this system. Just need to have as high of a level of privacy as possible.

[Patrick Murphy (AOT State Policy Director)]: So everyone will be allowed to pay in the same way they pay now for all their other fees at DMV, because the final reconciliation will take place at the point of registration.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So they could pay?

[Patrick Murphy (AOT State Policy Director)]: So somebody could absolutely pay in cash or by check or by credit card, any number of ways. Those options are preserved. The question, I think, to the chair's question is more about if you provide, if somebody chooses the payment plan option where they've spaced their payments out over a monthly or quarterly basis, is it worth allowing for all of those other payment methods at that same time? And I think that's what we'll learn through the implementation of it.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I like

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the idea of everybody getting to a system where you can make payments and can do that. Administratively, if I've got someone older, and I've got a bunch of people that I deal with all the time, in my other life, in a couple of the college savings plan, I've got people that they make regular contributions to their college savings plans, and I've got people that do not wanna electronically book up their bank account to any system because they're afraid of scammers out there. And they like where they put a check-in the mail and do that, and of course the management company is always saying, we want everything electronic because it costs us less money, but so there is a push back.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. Well, it's good that we're talking about it at this stage.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. Well, is there anything that we've missed in this is an initial draft we're trying to get in front of everybody out there so we can have the conversation. Is there any areas we've missed that we should have in that initial draft for discussion.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I know that there isn't, like, a findings and intent section that might clearly fit in with this language, but I really do think we should spell out that we don't want an m buff to be created. If we're going to just have it be EVs for some unknown period of time because they're not paying their fair share, I think we should also have findings that talk about how we don't want this to inadvertently reduce us meeting our climate action plan goals. Like, want to I feel like we should spell that out because if we're going to be adding an additional cost to a specific vehicle type that at the same time we are actively trying to encourage the purchase of, I think we should at least call out that tension in some way.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I don't get any problem with mentioning that. You should put that down, Darren. I should also think that what we might wanna say, and it's been around this table in the statement of purpose is the system right now is not fair to everybody. The system, because of the change in road usage and the change in vehicles, which has happened to us, not us doing anything, that the system now is unfair and what we're trying to get to is a system where as close as we can that people are paying equally.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. You know, whatever we draft and when we come up with a bill, it should be clear that, you know, we're not out to punish anybody. We're just trying to maintain the roads we have and get people to pay equity.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, what we're trying to do is maintain revenues, not it, you know, at this point we aren't trying to raise more money.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yes, we're

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: trying to make this revenue neutral. Yeah. That

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: lowers my blood pressure on this

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: topic. Nice.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Morning has been worth it. Well you should have give me sugar first thing. Got my tea cake.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And yeah. This is just the envelope.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I don't want to put pressure on you, but you and Patrick need to bust a little something on this. I will freeze. Because I will remind you by the time we get to here next week, we've got ten days. Ten half days. Understood. We have five days. So my plan

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: is to have a a draft of the basic right now and to Patrick this afternoon. Yep. So that he can begin reviewing that. And then on Monday or over the weekend, really, my plan is to get this immigration by 2031 at the intent statement and some of these this other reporting language put together so that I can then trade with Patrick on Monday, make changes based on the agency's feedback to the now language, get Patrick the other language to to review. And then I haven't checked with Patrick if this works with his schedule, but then with the goal of having a full package for you by I think you said next Wednesday

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yep.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Earlier. And that way that way, Patrick can get me feedback by Tuesday on the other language. But you'll have the sort of now language for how are we rolling out and buff for EVs on January 1 to consider next Tuesday when you're back here? And then on Wednesday, you'll have the rest of the language package to review.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And I would say to the committee, what that brings up is that and I will tell you the five year date that I came from, we had Logan in here talking about if we got the purchase and use tax back that we had six years. Well, when I hear six years, what my view is around that, to run through that is that is steady state with no recession, no problems or anything. My hope would be that five years from today we have implementation. This is not going to happen by itself without us pushing it along. What that brings up for a question that this committee is going to have to struggle with is what do we do in this five year period? And that is going to bring the only thing that carries out five years is the purchase and use tax that the administration has put forward, and so we're going to have to have that whole discussion about the five year period and what we would do. So we're gonna have to and I don't expect that to be an easy conversation for us all to come to place.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you. Can I just make one comment on that is that the five year plan or five years that we have, it's actually worse than that in my opinion because of all of the projects that are either being cancelled or much reduced? So we're hurting ourselves within that

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: five year period. Well in that five year period without that, we looked at the pavement. You can't have 55 miles with 2,700 miles of state highway and we're doing 1% up, I mean, that's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, it's worse even than we've been.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But we have to have the discussion about how do we get from here to the long term. Vehicle miles traveled is the long term to get to a stable place, but we have a five year problem that is, so we're going to have to struggle with that. I appreciate what you want to do. Well, I'm you know, this is weed.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I also just want to say, I don't think nationally we've seen proof of concept that ends up kids fix your revenue shortfall. We have not seen that. Like there's no state that has I think we saw one state that's kind of gone past the breaking even point of it administratively for themselves recently. So I do think if we're going to have these conversations, we need to talk about indexing the gas tax.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That Actually, actually, that's not a thing. To back up, we didn't cover whether or not we wanted to include indexing in vehicle miles traveled. That's an issue that we're going to have to discuss in here.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yes, and it sounds like the house did not index it because there was no indexing at the gas test.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So they intentionally didn't index it. Exactly, is my understanding.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But the idea of the discussion is if we envision this moving to a long term for everyone, do we think indexing is important?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Not that we're not indexing the asset.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Only if we want to keep our revenues.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: just you know, the ultimate piece would we would get this for everybody, so do we and, you know, it's perfectly legitimate to say not now and maybe sometime in the future, we would consider indexing when this all went to place. But I will warn you that if you don't do it here, it becomes harder down the road. So that's just

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And I think fairness would not be having one fuel type be having an escalating cost

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: while another fuel type does not. So That feels, like, not fair to me. I think we're at the point, oh, you're hurting.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We but there so we'll have a draft on Wednesday.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. Yeah. And there will be some language that could be reviewed on Tuesday if you wanna fit that in. Otherwise, we can do all of it on Wednesday.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And I've made some individual requests of Damian for TBill stuff.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: have individual requests from you and senator Harrison.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So mine is the headline.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: And also senator Perchlik. So

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: When would you when should we be expecting that we'll be reviewing those pieces?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If we can get through purchase and use tax, we can the short term, and we can get through the end of next week. At the end of the week we'll make a decision about timetable for the rest

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: of us. Okay. I guess I just get a little worried that those pieces will not happen if we kind of push them to the end. So I'm wondering kind of if you think about the next ten days, what would you like to do if someone

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: has something that they want? For me, the big picture comes first. And then as soon as we start to get that nailed down, we'll I'm trying not to forget anything and and

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I know. So I I think it might

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: just trying to I got one step at a time.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yes. And I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I think what I'm trying to get at is I'd like clarity because I will have witnesses associated with some sections of my recommendations, and if there is a timeline of when I should be requesting them to come in, that would be really helpful information. So it sounds like your answer was not next week, Not the week after. So if I was to be inviting witnesses, what would you recommend?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Let me let me talk with Megan. Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So I would talk to Megan?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Put the stuff out for Megan, and and and we'll struggle with schedule.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Can I generally ask the committee? Some of you have overlapping requests. Can I coordinate between those of you who do?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I'm all good.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: K.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Because I Yes.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: What I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Do you mind if he shares the request with me?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: No. I'd love if he shares.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Great. I just what I what I wanna avoid is drafting two versions of the same thing.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Especially if if two or three of you can get together in advance and iron out the differences. And that'll allow me some freedom to talk to you all when we're all in the room too. Okay. So great. Thank you.