Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Hi there, you're joining us on March 24, no, March 25 at 9AM with the Senate Transportation Committee. Our chair is not here today,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: so you get me as the chair. So we're joined by David Pelletier and you're going to tell us about the policy planning and research budget. Take it away. We have until ten.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: I hope to be finished well in advance of that, but we'll see where it goes. Thanks for having me. As you mentioned, I'm Dave Pelletier, I'm a Planning Manager at the Agency of Transportation, and I'm going to give you a brief presentation on the policy planning and research proposed budget for federal or for state fiscal year 2027. Just a handful of slides, so hopefully there'll be plenty of opportunity for for for question and answer and discussion. At the highest level, I'll just give you kind of a look at money in money out in really broad sense here. The policy planning and research budget is largely federal funded. It's about 80% federal funding. And let me just take a step back here too, so when I say policy planning research, have a sense, a better sense of what that means in terms of what we're doing at the agency and what it encompasses. And there's a slide that will capture what I'm about to kind of rattle off for deeper short little bullet list here. So no need to memorize or write it down. But components of it include the Regional Planning Program and the MPO relationship with the CCRPC, Chitlin County Regional Planning Commission in the Greater Burlington area. That includes, in the budget, includes both the staffing that we have at the agency to operate our end of those programs as well as the pass through funding to the Regional Planning Commission's and Metropolitan Planning Organization. So you'll see, and I'll point these out in a couple different ways on the slide so you can see that portion of the funding. It's a significant portion that we end up passing through for all of that work. And then, like I said, we do hold some back to be able to be on the AOT end of things and coordinating from shop. In this budget, we also include our assistance planning group, a small group of planners that work on our statewide planning initiatives, including the rail plan. We've been involved in that lately and the freight plan for the state as well as the long range transportation plan for the for the state, which we'll be getting into later this year for an update. We also have our development group, development review group that reviews Act two fifty applications for transportation impacts on the state system. We have our mapping crew that takes care of everything mileage related and data related having to do with all the highway systems, which is really important because that forms the foundation a basis for funding allotments and all sorts of different planning and federally and state required kind of inventories of assets throughout the state. We have permitting, which is our eleven eleven, our access permit team, small crew of people that handle review and issuance of permits when people want to do work or construct anything in or around the state right of way.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: We hear a lot about eleven

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Okay. So

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Alright. Good to know. We have our last two components are the research program, which is a small but mighty group of a couple of really smart and motivated people that coordinate all the research that takes place at the agency, which is not just highway oriented, but gets into a whole range of policy considerations and and a whole breadth of of subject matter. And then last but not least, we do have our public outreach, component, which is really, at the moment, a a team of one, with Amy Tatco that handles communications and kind of the public interface aspects of the agency's work. So I'll show you all of that in a more of a budget format, but for the purpose of just having a little bit more context and understanding what I'm showing in these pie charts here, that's what is kind of baked into these pie charts, no pun intended. So again, just quickly, funding coming in, majority is federal funding, and there's a state match that's required for that. And then there's a small amount of interdepartmental transfer, which is a small pot of money that comes in both from ANR and ACCD to fund our Better Connections grant program or fund a portion of our Better Connections grant program, which you may be familiar with and we can talk about more after if you're interested. And then on the way out, as mentioned, the majority of the funding goes through and out the agencies of RPCs and to the MPO. The MPO portion is significant. It's about $5,000,000 or so. And the RPC grants make up, I'm not going to guess, it's on a subsequent slide, it's a portion of that $10,000,000 And then personal services accounts for all of the staffing and consultant time that we have at the agency for all of the work. Then the operating, the small piece there is our portion of the budget to keep the lights on and such.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Are you good with questions as we

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: go Yeah, absolutely.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So the grants to the MPO, are those for actual, projects or is it for policy and planning of MPO staff?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: It's, for planning staff and consultant time for planning studies and work included in their, Unified Planning Work Program.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, okay, so it's basically their operations, but not their

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: own Exactly,

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: and that amount of funding is identified at the federal level and simply comes through the Agency of Transportation as a pass through. So they've, you know, as a populous area in the state, they have this direct kind of apportionment of funding from the Federal Highway Administration.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right, and I would like to at some point just get more detail on that. Sure. And then your permits, not active 50 permits particularly, how do you decide or how does the agency decide which ones to take up?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: We have staff that reviews each permit that we are identified as being potential party to, and they have traffic engineering skills and basically go through an analysis of what the traffic impacts would be based on the development proposal, and to make a judgment call about whether or not there's anything to be concerned about from our standpoint in terms of impacts on the state system. And then in cases where there are going to be impacts and it falls under the framework that's been in place for several years under Act 145, we may assess an impact, a small impact fee to that developer through that framework. Right, that's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: the fee that's for a particular thing like an intersection.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Exactly, exactly.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So could you talk a little bit because something kind of interesting in our system is that some areas of Act two fifty will require a developer to support a transit operation. So for example, a ski resort to support a transit operation just directly.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, but we've never really done that, right? No,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: we have done that.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Part of it, Doctor. 53.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes, yes. Dollars 100,000 a year for more than ten years that hasn't increased. So there is at least one district who's doing that and it can make a lot, it makes a lot of difference to the funding for transit. So do you know why some districts do that and some don't or?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: I'm afraid I can't really speak to that. It's something that we could come back to, but I'm definitely not an expert in that particular area.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, well it would be really helpful.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, guess with the appeal, like you know, you're doing an Act two fifty review and then someone requests that. Is that how it happens? Is the review of the LER now?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No, the district. Act of 50 Part

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: of the transportation criteria.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, so they can require 52.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay. Right. And they also required housing in those, but that's not relevant to this.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: So we can ask Rich to see if

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: we could get, I think it's really important and it's in that The district would be judge It

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: would be the district court. It would be the judge, right?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, it's not a judge, the district administrator.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, you know your district coordinator, they can come present to us.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, well I'd rather have the agency present, just because it's something that the agency has the authority to do and we're not doing. So,

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: if I could, Jeremy, Chief Engineer. So, each individual environmental commission decides how each criteria is satisfied. The agency doesn't have the sole authority to mandate something like that. We are a statutory party and we can certainly make suggestions and provide that recommendation, but ultimately the District Commission decides what conditions to impose or not to impose on an applicant.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, I think we can help the agency include that in your review because you can do things, you're not beholden to just what the district says. You can have additional requirements. But let's have that conversation.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: I don't know how we would direct them to do that, but yeah, I'll ask and see if we can get someone to come in. Maybe Michelle would know. I know that Michelle Blue Power kind of very in and around this conversation, but maybe we just request if she has someone who could speak

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: to it. Yeah. If I if I could suggest maybe having somebody from the land use review board come in and talk about how that occurs because again, we're statutory party, but that's it. We don't have any the way beyond that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, okay, so then just to, there, I know of an instance in Broward Borough where the agency wanted a transit amenity to happen and then it was overturned by the town chose not to do it. But the agency did ask for

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: that. So,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: it's just, it's really important, Jonathan Slice and, report, the 181 report talked about But in time when we're looking for revenue and these are private entities that are generally pretty well off and we're subsidizing them instead of subsidizing transit.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: TDM strategies. Right, exactly.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Okay, so another pie chart here and really it kind of, it pretty much reflects what I've already covered in terms of the split out of the funding by section and reflects very clearly the pass through to the MPO and then the RPC grants. It says TPI, that's the Transportation Planning Initiative. Those are annual grants that we provide to the Regional Planning Commission's scope of work that we agree upon and work to coordinate on and communicate back and forth about transportation planning matters and kind of work collaboratively to address issues as they come up in the regions and then also looking out forward long term. RPCs help us a lot with, our statewide planning efforts as well and provide the venue for public meetings and communications out into the into the municipalities about, about those efforts, As well as we use it as a conduit to hear back from the communities about what's going on and what the regional priorities are as well.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Just another. You're really on topic. This

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: is where I think things could be better. The priority process that the state used to do in concert with the regional commissions where the locals would prioritize projects in different categories. That's not happening now, right? Think it's Jeremy.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Correct. We've hit a pause on BPSP-two because the program is full. So there's no point taking in project we know we can't deliver at this stage.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And that was about four years ago is what I understand?

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Three to four years ago. It was just before I became chief engineer.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay. So my opinion is that that is especially important when money is tight and you're getting rid of projects. I think prioritization is really important when you're getting rid projects and that the locals should have an opportunity to prioritize because there are things like economic development and that the state might not be, possibly your area would have information about future development and how that 's planned in concert with

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: And that's one of the things that we do query the RPC for to have communications about is just the context for projects that are already existing. And one of the things that we're really trying to focus on now where we don't have capacity for new projects in our programs is, okay, the ones that are out there that are already programmed, what's the context? What are the issues going on in the area? How can we make for a better project? So the contextualization of the projects that are already programmed, which is part what you're

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: talking about, about the

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: global knowledge and prioritization of what's going on out there. So we're trying to short of being able to take new projects in, we're still trying to leverage this relationship to make sure that those priorities are still accurate and that we have local information and regional context for these projects as they're developed.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's good to know. I mean, there's a couple there in my area that are being canceled or incredibly reduced that are going to have a big impact and that's something that we got to talk about.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah. Has your agency ever considered working through, like, is it a statutory reason why the review is only on when we have an overage of money, a surplus of money and can do additional projects? Or is that a statutory requirement or is that kind of an individual agency choice? Should you transition and include in all policy planning as we start to lower our expectations for projects to have more local voice? Because I think that's I think if I'm hearing your point, Senator Harrison, it's that now is actually the most important time to get local feedback as we scale back projects. So, that a decision that you would be making as an agency or is that a state law decision?

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: It's a policy decision. Okay. And I guess I would offer that to have that conversation, maybe I could come back

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: and

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: re present how we sequence our projects, right? Because it is a two step process, one to get into the program and then because every project moves at a different pace based on the complexity and sort of the objective of the project. Then on an annual basis when we develop the budget, we pick kind of where projects are and what fiscal year. And I've presented that.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Yeah.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: And happy to do it again and maybe we can get deeper into the weeds on exactly how we do that and why we do that.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, but Ian said

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: you I think that would be helpful.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, we have had that presentation, but it would be good to have him come back and maybe we talk to Rich about including Damian and some kind of conversation around, you know, as we to engage more local voices. I don't know. I we have talked quite a bit about that. So do you is that something that you think you would be able to facilitate having more local voices and Well- Regional Planning Commission input on the project prioritization?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Yeah, I mean, the relationship with the Regional Planning Commission and the kind of the, you know, the communications out into the municipalities is pretty robust. The statutory I mean, our relationship with the RPCs is codified in the state statute that we're, you know, this is how we do our output or our outreach, and so don't know how much more could be done in terms of like really bolstering or emphasizing the importance of and the significance of that relationship. There's always, you know, communications can always be improved one way or another, but we do, I think we do a pretty good job and the channels are available. They're there. We have our planning coordinators that cover the whole state and work with each of the regional planning commissions to sort of facilitate that two way communication, so just be a matter of continuing to do that and thinking about if there are ways to improve that I guess or leverage that more, because it is definitely in place.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Well, talk to, I think we should have you come back and I'll ask Rich when he returns about that and perhaps Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. That'd be great. And

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: if I could, because I don't know if we've actually presented that. This team is now within the highway division and part of that move was to bring the planning team closer to our asset management team. So now with that, I got that management planning and to kind of create a more seamless conduit. I've already met with the Board of Trustees of ABDA and discussed what our fiscal outlook is and how RPCs can be involved in not only buyer considering project, but also technical resources at the towns and sort of some of our other planning initiatives. So, I guess just to emphasize Dave's point, we are trying to, I want say improve, but make the communication much more transparent in two way. And we've got a number of initiatives over the summer that we will partner with our VC, John, to address that will probably result in statutory changes next year.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Oh, okay. That sounds And

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: I guess this is just saying that we are trying to re energize our communication and partnership with the RVCs.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Good job, and I think that'll help the whole entire thing, but I did just want to say I appreciate your framing and explaining the Highway Division piece, because I'd say at least the rumor mill of why that move was made was maybe a little different than the framing you had just presented. I think there was concern that the move was to squeeze and lay folks off and particularly lay folks off who are involved in climate change related work. So I don't know. I just want to lay that out on the table. I'm not saying that that's the case, but that was a helpful framing because I think there was. Yeah, so if you have any thoughts on that, feel free to, but I appreciate that that was a different context than

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I was aware of.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: No, I think Jeremy's comment about getting the planning folks and policy folks closer to the project development, the asset management aspects of the agency is spot on, because when the staff that I oversee, when they go out to the Regional Planning Commission and go to the Tax Transportation Advisory committees. Inevitably, you know, we talk about big picture things and long term planning, but projects come up and so for us to have a better understanding of how the asset management system is working in our agency and why projects are moving around. They run into hurdles with this one, but not on that one. It's just, I think it's a good opportunity that we're taking advantage of right now with this move in the agency to get better, just to get aligned better with understanding that so that when we go out, we can speak about it, fully aware of why things are going on, how they go on.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: And I think that is even a disconnect that's happening, is there is a lot of policy planning that's happening at the regional and state level, and it feels at times that it is disconnected from the ultimate outcome of a project.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Alright. So just another slice or another kind of lens at what I've already shown you here in terms of how the budget is broken up and just the overall magnitude of it essentially. It's not a lot get into on this one.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: How do we get a second MPO?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Actually, we

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: grow a

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: lot. Okay.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, to have a mandatory MPO, yes. Darn. There are other options.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: I like the money going.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, exactly.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: And this is just the reflection of, just to give you context about how our total budget has looked in this grouping over the years, and then the significant reduction in state funds that we were able to realize just partly through that restructuring. So it has been a benefit in terms of that and freeing up some state funds over time for match purposes.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: How many folks did you ultimately in the restructuring from your department who, how many folks were, are no longer employed?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Well, I I mean, the the two Oppositions? The most obvious ones are Michelle, who is retiring. Oh. Right? She's gonna be she's gonna be retiring this spring. And then Amy Bell, who is the bureau director for this unit, is also retiring Okay. This spring. So those are the two, like and and those were those were sort of known quantities. We didn't know exactly when that was gonna happen, but we were able to incorporate that incorporate that into the budget planning process over the past few months. But otherwise, I think that's it, to be honest. Okay. This grouping of people, so and those were known. So we're, you know, we're fortunate that we've still got really most of our capacity. I mean, I'd be lying if I said that Michelle and Amy didn't carry a lot of water in particular areas.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Too very productive.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: So but we are we're adjusting and I'm taking on more responsibilities, and some of the people around me are taking on more responsibilities as well. And it's it's kind of a it's a little bit of a you know, you have this generational change from a work workforce standpoint too. That's a little bit of that's going on right now as well.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Well, would say we've really appreciated Michelle over the last few years. With the CCRPC knowledge she brought too has been really helpful conversation. We continue to have someone in a position that can offer that kind of real hands on support to the legislature. There we go.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I'm sorry if you mentioned this about the active 50 piece of your work, does that include the active 50 permits you applied for or just your response as of mandatory or is it?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: It's the latter and Jeremy is much more familiar with the project development process and that's that's where

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: that is. Yeah. So our environmental section,

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: which is the technical service,

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: the bureau will handle how many

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: things we are the app and not. Yeah. And who will replace Michelle's

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: role?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Is there a person? Don't

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: we know?

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: No. There is.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Well, go ahead. So Patrick Murphy will be the state policy coordinator. And so he will be the face of the agency, I think next session. And then again, a lot of the team came to highways. From a division director piece, I will assume that role. And then, who I think has probably has done that, she is leading the intermodal division now where we consist of rail to rails, rail and aviation.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: And public

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: transit. And public transit.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Because it seemed like Michelle played a a role across all the whole agency. Yeah. Just if we had a question

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: terminal. Yeah.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Like, what about this thing? She was like, okay. I'll put you in a with or whoever the person is. Yeah. Yeah. And that was very helpful.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Yes. And nothing happened with the that that person. Moving forward. Okay. Yep.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So the cell phone number She was she made herself very available. And she was always here which other agencies, but being on the committee, being on the committees, other parts of state government don't do that. I don't know if you just have you're a bigger agency obviously than a lot of the other ones, but it's a striking difference between the relationship this committee has with the agency of transportation and other committees that have with their prior lines of jurisdiction. So I think it's been good for the committee's work and for the agency's work.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: I fully expect that to continue with Patrick and certainly all be at present. We certainly do not intend to be less visible.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Yeah, any other questions?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And then if not, should have just a little bit. Just how many people do you have who are coordinating with the RPCs? Because our guy is very responsive.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Yeah, have Matthew runs just that group of staff and then we've got three people that work for Matthew that are points of contact for the RPCs.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So there's like seven RPCs or no there's 14. So then do they have

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: They each have a few yeah. Kind of So Yeah. Yeah. And Matthew's the primary point of contact for the NPO activities. Okay.

[Jeremy, Chief Engineer, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Alright. Well, that's working well.

[Dave (David) Pelletier, Planning Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation]: Good. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. It's a very important part of what

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: we do. Doctor. It's really important.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair, Acting Chair)]: Well, there's any more questions, thanks David. We can go off live and then come back

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: at