Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Richard Westman]: You're live. So would you like to answer, Karen? March 11. It is Wednesday, March 11, and this is Senate Transportation. And we are here to listen to the update from Amtrak, and they brought us a really nice pen.

[Margaret Clark]: I hope you use it with crack.

[Richard Westman]: Yeah. And I I to start this off, I will say I've only been on the train to New York Virgins three times.

[Ashley Atkins]: Okay.

[Margaret Clark]: And I highly recommend It's pretty wonderful, and we appreciate everything that Vermont has done.

[Richard Westman]: It's heard. What I really like now is you can get to the city, get checked into your hotel, and get to a show. The old days when the window was like an hour was impossible, but now it's great.

[Margaret Clark]: I made that happen. So good morning. I'm Margaret Clark. I'm the manager of government affairs for Amtrak. I am delighted to be here today. Senator Harrison has been my compadre for quite a while, and I wanna thank Vermont for all the support you've given Amtrak and my friend Michelle. And B TRANS and Amtrak work very well together, and we are very happy with the partnership. And the steadfast support that you guys have had for passenger rail has been remarkable. I submitted my written testimony on Monday, and I'm providing folders for each one of you that has basically the results from fiscal twenty twenty five for Amtrak. Also, the Vermont state fact fact sheet that gives you ridership numbers, money that's been, invested in ABA projects along Vermont on Ethan Allen Express and the M Honor. And also most exciting for me and hopefully you guys is the one pager on the Arrow. There's three things I hope that I'm able to convey to you, the committee, by the end of this conversation, which is number one, our deep gratitude for partnership for Vermont for all these years. The second is an understanding of the incredible trajectory Amtrak has had for the last couple of years and how much Vermont has been part of that. And then finally, hopefully, be able to share Amtrak's enthusiasm for the new train sets that will be coming to Vermont in 2030, around 2030. First starting with, I believe, the Romanor and then to, wait, no, Ethan Allen and then Vermonter. So I'd like to start with Amtrak's, incredible success for 2025. Many of you know that Congress created, Amtrak back in 1971. And for a very long time, Amtrak has, limped along. And with the IIJA and the infusion of cash, we had a record setting twenty twenty five and 2024. So last year was our strongest year we've had in our history. We, had 34,500,000 riders, which is up from, 5.1% from 2024, also a record breaking year. We, generated 2,700,000,000 in ticket revenue, is which up by 10.4%. And we generated $3,900,000,000 in total operating revenue, which was up by 9.1%. And we clocked 6,900,000,000 passenger miles nationwide. We increased our system capacity despite an aging fleet. And my former boss used to say to me, railroading is a team sport, and this was a team sport, was being able to really utilize the equipment that it was running and do it well. We were able to, all those numbers that I just listed out, they contribute for revenue growth, customer satisfaction, and our ability to meet demand was because of the team sports that we we had every day. I'm gonna read one statement aloud just so that everybody understands how important the state partnership is with federal partnerships. The record breaking year underscores the strong public appetite for passenger rail and the importance of continued federal state partnership, including our long standing collaboration with Vermont on the Vermont and Ethan Island Express. So I always like to break it down into, okay. So we we have 500 stations across the entire, nation. But what does that really mean for Vermont with how well Amtrak did? Tourism, mobility, ridership, everything that you offer in Vermont is really what's mirroring also our national momentum. And if Amtrak's successful, it it supports Vermont's priorities, which is better frequency, more reliable travel times, and modern equipment. And with that being said said, I'm gonna talk about the most exciting part, which is our modern equipment that's coming. No. Sent the letter, if

[Ashley Atkins]: I remember correctly. You did.

[Margaret Clark]: And I wanted to take a moment to say thank you. Just FYI, Vermont was the only transportation committee that had the entire committee sign on for their support. And I'm very proud, and you guys should be too. And that's what we're talking about with the Pat Fast support that you've always given to Amtrak. The aerotrains are going to start into service in the fall out in the Pacific Northwest. And we initially ordered, as you guys know, because of the letter you signed, that we initially ordered 83 train sets. And with the trajectory that we've had from '24 and '25, we're seeing demand just be off the charts. So we felt the need that we were gonna be, needing more trains. And so we submitted our application to the National Railroad Partnership Program on February 5. And the FRA will most likely make their decision between mid to late summer, and I will communicate to you guys what the the end result is. So why are the arrows so exciting? I can see everyone looking at their arrow sheets. I know. It's pretty The seat's pretty exciting. But they're hybrid capable. They're quieter. So if you live along the railroad, everyone should be very happy because they're gonna be quieter, and they have lower emissions. Capacity and accessibility. There's more seating. So as we see the demand go up, it's gonna be bigger train sets, which means more people can sit on them and and be able to to meet the demand. Not smaller seats.

[Andrew Perchlik]: You're not following the airlines.

[Margaret Clark]: No. So I will talk about this in a second. The ADA compliant interiors are fantastic. And I actually had the opportunity on February 10 to go down to Washington DC and have what we call the first look. We invited we invited congress and some staffers along with heads of DOT across the country, and we had over 200 people attend. And I got to see and touch and feel the new trains. And I couldn't believe how beautiful they were. Just the just the Arrow the Arrow the Amfleet ones are they're they're pretty old. They're about 35, 40 years old. So being on something that's brand new was was really remarkable. And and we had the ADA community there, and they were able to get into the bathroom with their wheelchair and be able to turn it all the way around. They were ecstatic. So that was that was good. The other thing that I I I asked people as they got off the train, well, that was that was the most exciting thing. And people couldn't went on and on about the water bottle refill. Oh, no. Okay. You know, nothing's beat. Nothing. But okay. The the water bottle ability to refill the water bottle. So that was great. There's panoramic windows. And I think for Vermont, that is going to be a huge selling point because the foliage and and people, it's it's lights out if they're huge windows. So to be able to see Vermont and all Torrey will be fabulous. Let's see here.

[Ashley Atkins]: So I have a

[Wendy Harrison]: question about the shrink trains. The only thing I've heard negative about them is that the seats don't go back don't recline as much. They don't. And, you know,

[Margaret Clark]: we're we're working through the different ideas that Okay. Is it a change order? Is it is it do we for shorter rides, or are we okay with that? There's a lot of conversation that's happening.

[Richard Westman]: Okay. Good.

[Wendy Harrison]: So you are looking at Absolutely. Especially, like, a Vermont tour because that's a really that's people can do that overnight.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. They want the seats to go down. And they and we

[Margaret Clark]: have four years until they're Oh. And we also I don't know if you saw the news, but we're also procuring long distance. So those are going to be more geared towards long distance, which is anything over 750 miles. So, you know, it's it's a it's a it's it's a working target. And I think that a lot of me knowing what AMPREP has done through the last, you know, fifteen years, the fact that we we were able to to get the funding to be able to to, you know, procure new trays in itself is a miracle. It is. So I'm always one of those people that's, you know, beautiful water bottle refiller, and, you know, it's it's almost it's it's it's a we're pretty excited, but, yes, it's definitely been something that's been talked about. Good. Good. Yeah. Alright. So my presentation is over, and now I'm ready for any questions.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So when will we see that on the Ethan Allen or Humana?

[Margaret Clark]: 2030. Right around twenty thirty. And I believe the Mine. I'm sorry.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Both of those.

[Margaret Clark]: Mine. Yes. Mhmm. And I believe the Ethan Allen is first and then the Vermonter is second. And that has to do with right now, the train will be, you know, manufactured in California and North Carolina. It's breaking ground on a on a new manufacturing facility for Siemens to build more of them. So it's really gonna depend on how quickly we can we can get them on the rail safely and get going.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And talk a bit about the Acelia here. Is that also being updated? I'm sorry? The Acelia Acela?

[Margaret Clark]: So the Acelas were launched in in the fall, and they they're all they're coming on slowly but surely. Believe we have 11 at this point in our repertoire that run the Northeast Corridor. New ones. Brand new.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And all these also come with new engines?

[Richard Westman]: Yes. Okay. Yes.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And are you expanding where you're gonna be able to take the cells?

[Margaret Clark]: So that's the tough part.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. So that requires catnary.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah.

[Margaret Clark]: And significant upgrades. And to give you an idea of the Northeast Corridor right now, we've done an incredible job rebuilding our infrastructure and whatnot, but we're still about a $100,000,000,000 short for to be able to to bring that up to where it would be, you know, at top shape. So redoing catenary was one thing, but then having to build it from scratch up to Vermont or up to Pennsylvania, from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, that's an incredible endeavor financially. Do I think it's possible? Yes. With a lot of advocacy and push for cash in the rail.

[Richard Westman]: The Northeast Corridor, are you asking about going to Montreal?

[Margaret Clark]: Yeah. I've spent the

[Andrew Perchlik]: whole And then there's a whole question How are how are discussions going with Yeah. I assume these days, Canada isn't all warm and fuzzy about working with The United States.

[Margaret Clark]: But Well, I think, you know, everything is

[Richard Westman]: in the media.

[Margaret Clark]: You know? And I think that b trans has done an exceptional job Yeah. Working with Canada. New York State is doing an exceptional job working with Canada. And I think when, you know, we take it outside of the media, things are on.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So is there any news on Yeah. Montreal?

[Margaret Clark]: Yeah. But I will definitely keep you guys up to date. But I know that V trans is really leading Three years.

[Richard Westman]: They've been saying three years Thirty years. Yeah.

[Margaret Clark]: It's You wanna Now until I got into to Amtrak, I had no idea the red tape and the absolute, you know, grit that it takes to be able to get a project to come to fruition. And I I have to say that a lot of people within Amtrak, I was just telling Michelle this, that they've spent their entire careers planning for what we're doing right now. So I think it's gonna happen. Do I know when it's gonna happen? No. But I think it's gonna happen, I will be right there with you. Because I've read some of the articles up in Montreal, and it seemed like a really good time. Yeah. It was great. So

[Richard Westman]: I wish this. So what other questions? Good.

[Andrew Perchlik]: People not one she said that the new trains can go faster, but you have to isolate the tracks at. Would you be ready for a faster training?

[Margaret Clark]: Are we talking about the Acelis? Are we talking about No.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I I'm not not thinking we're ever getting the Astellas up here anytime soon because of all

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: of our but just points back.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Could we knock the time off to get to New York City or DC for some

[Margaret Clark]: I think as as, you know, time goes by and and infrastructure funds come together and Vermont, you know, has done an exceptional job rebuilding the traffic that is owned by Vermont, and and Genesee and Wyoming is working on their infrastructure. Yeah. I think that they can.

[Andrew Perchlik]: But the current the the new trades can go up to 155?

[Richard Westman]: Yeah. Yes. Stuff like that in the the current

[Margaret Clark]: Give me one second. One twenty five.

[Andrew Perchlik]: One twenty five. Yes. And the current one's fanatical. Yes. So

[Margaret Clark]: It's all about curvature of traps.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: It's all about traps.

[Richard Westman]: Yes. Oh,

[Wendy Harrison]: that's a traps. So I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. I'm very honored to be here. So when we get the stat stats on how many riders we've had, and I I believe and sure that there are situations where the train is full Mhmm. And we don't get you know, we you know, people would go, but they don't have they're not able to get a ticket. Can you tell us how many of those there are? Because they would be access you know, they'd be trying to get a ticket through your system. So it'd be really helpful because one of the ways one of the reasons I advocate for trains is just that it's it's economic development totally. You know? And so if we're missing those riders or if people can't always get to to to New York or wherever they're going, that's not as good. I I don't know if if we are gonna have a a longer train set on from holidays or foliage season.

[Margaret Clark]: That's so

[Wendy Harrison]: that's good. Know if you're

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: if you

[Wendy Harrison]: have that flexibility.

[Margaret Clark]: That's definitely a conversation with D Trans and and to figure out. And I will be fully transparent. We have equipment shortages that are are better expensive. Yeah. That's why getting the new aerotrains on the rail safely and efficiently is is really our goal, along with the fact that launching the newest cells has also allowed for more capacity. And so we're able to to utilize our equipment differently. In regards to sellouts, I can probably work with with our state support team to figure out what the sellout for the modern is now and get that information for you.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. That'd be great. And then a couple of things that we talked about at the rail plan meeting or the rail council. With some of that, we like to get the signs that those, you know, on on the highway. And Okay. The state already made it okay with our our billboard law. It's my understanding, Michelle. I'm not saying it.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. But Yeah. If you can be near it. So there was some language two years ago that allowed for directional signs to train stations in airports.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. Great. Because you you've probably seen them in Massachusetts. They're they're they're just you know, they they look like they're this big, but they're probably this big. And they're on the exit sign. And at at the bottom of the exit sign, it just says Amtrak. Or even sometimes some of them are just a icon of the train. But then you know that there's a train there, and you think, oh, next time. Gosh. You know? So I might take the train, or I didn't know there was there were trains here. It's just a good way to advertise.

[Margaret Clark]: I act I agree. I definitely can, take a look at signage and and what we can provide. I would love to have a prioritization list of where it is that B TRANS believes that we should should put those signs. So I think that's about know, that's that's really important, especially, you know, in in areas that I was in Waterbury yesterday, and what a great spring. Great winter. Great. Great. Super Bowl. Yes. Yeah. You know, wanna make sure that the signage is there. And and and if it was me and I was prioritized, this is a suggestion. This is from Margaret Clark, not Amtrak. I would probably look at where the highest ridership is. Take a look at where you wanna have the signs, and we can figure out what we can do. I do have a couple of them in my office that I can bring out. Yep. Don't push my arm to have to come back to Vermont. Alright. But I can I can figure that out, and I'll I'll work with you guys and figure out what we can do?

[Wendy Harrison]: It's great. Thank you. And just one just something I very much appreciate is in the past two years, three years, there are gates at all of the Amtrak crossings, I believe, which is really important. I mean, I I don't know if you all have been down to Vernon, but at Vernon, we had a we had an intersection that was not An onion across. 90 degree. Oh. Yeah. And Amtrak was on it. So Oh. So now it's dated. So that's very you know, I really appreciate that because I was worried about the

[Margaret Clark]: safety there. And that's definitely, again, an initiative from the Federal Railroad Administration to make sure that at grade crossings are are eliminated as much as possible because until I got to Amperec, I had no idea how many deaths and and mistakes happen from drivers that just basically are paying attention to a GPS, and they drive onto the tracks. They're not paying attention. And so it is it's definitely something that's that's important, and it helps everybody. Keeps everybody safe.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. Definitely. You did

[Margaret Clark]: say something about economic development that I think is important, and I wanted to go back to it is that some of the stats show that for every billion dollars that you invest in transportation, you get $5,000,000,000 back in GDP. Oh. So it just shows the kind of economic impact having, you know, transportation options for people, what it does. And the other thing I'd like to talk about a little bit is about I was in Brattleboro yesterday. I don't know if you have a chance to look at the new station.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. But, sir, that's here.

[Margaret Clark]: Yeah. It is gorgeous. Yeah. And I'm very excited for when it's gonna it's gonna get opened up. But one of the things I talked about with Brattleboro yesterday is about transit oriented development and how there is funding opportunities available through the FRA that you may wanna take a look at and certain things that you wanna get off the ground. And I can send that information over to you guys so they could take a look at it. And I don't know if you have that at your fingertips, but I'd be more than happy to No. That'd be great. And one of the things that was talking about is how to make that sweet spot for the the next generation after me. I can't believe I have to say that sometimes. I'm 45 years old now. But the younger generation is very interested in being near transit. Yes. And we all know that. So having that ability to to create development that that attracts people to wanna live, play, and and whatnot is important.

[Wendy Harrison]: Good. Good. And then something else that I just wanna mention is having way to get from the train or to the train, because that's that can be

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: a challenge for folks. Yeah. There was I had

[Margaret Clark]: a great conversation with John Potter yesterday from Brattleboro, and, he mentioned wanting to get connected with oh my gosh. It's a ride sharing. It's a ride sharing program. It's gonna come to Zipcar. Oh. And so I did some work recon on LinkedIn yesterday, found more president of Zipcar, wrote them a a message, and, they said, give us a call. And I shared that with John Potter and gave him all the information. So it is important. The the first and last mile in Hudson, New York is doing something similar, which is reminds me a lot of Prada Borough. It's it's has a lot of culture, a lot of tourism, and it it's about a population of 6,000, which I think Prada Borough has, like, a 12,012. Yeah. Population. So I think that having those different ideas for transit that, to be honest, doesn't need to be subsidized by the government. It is something that you pay for because of it through an app. So just something to think about. And I also, does something too. It's a ride sharing program, which I actually just wanted to find this. Thanks. So

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Senator White. Yeah. Thank you, mister Chair. And I'm so grateful that you came and presented to us. I think we've had someone come in the past from Amtrak. So

[Margaret Clark]: I Jane Brophy. She was she was my predecessor.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: There you go. Well, welcome. Thank you for being the barometer. So I'm white with rejection. And so that's like, we're trained people. It's in our blood. We do glory days, all that. But the question that has come up for me uniquely in our area, and I know folks in St. Albans have experienced this, is a need for a quiet zone. That is more related, I think, to freight than it is to Amtrak, but it seems like the conversations become pretty everyone has issues with the concept of a quiet zone and the cost of putting in measures. But we have three senior housing facilities essential within very close proximity to the trains. And I get a lot of constituent complaints that they're woken up in the middle of the night. And while, again, I think it is more freight, the Amtrak train coming in is very, very loud. So I just have to voice that because I hear about it all the time, and it affects a population of people who we're trying to get them all in our downtown. Yep. Absolutely. And we want them to be in walking distance and stuff, but then they're woken up in the middle of the night, and they're not super comfortable. Absolutely. So I'm wondering kind of what your are these print are is the arrow train gonna be quieter? It is gonna be quieter.

[Margaret Clark]: However, it's not gonna eliminate the noise.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yep. And

[Richard Westman]: The horn. The horn.

[Margaret Clark]: And that's a safety measure. However, there is a protocol to request a quiet zone or

[Ashley Atkins]: how far you've gone down

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: the path. Have, as a community, talked about it's been in the washing machine a few times with Lori, but it seems like there was a significant cost to us doing some yeah. There's all every town that has a translator is like, there's some incredible cost to it because the noise of the horn is supposed to be an alert. So you have to have basically, like, an an alert or or some kind of safety guard. Yeah. That so I understand that. But is there any funding, or is there any support for that?

[Margaret Clark]: I can definitely look into it for you guys. I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm a big believer in safety.

[Richard Westman]: Mhmm.

[Margaret Clark]: And I don't know. I'll give you some stats that, you know, are very frightening, which is every three minutes in The United States, pedestrian or a vehicle comes in contact with a with a a train. And so as much as, you know, we will honor anything that you guys are looking to do, we'll we'll help you get the materials for the Quiet Zone. I'm just a firm believer in and so is Amtrak and Safety First. Oh, yeah. I and I I do appreciate people being woken up. I grew up in a railroading town, so, you know, I I understand it. However, I I definitely understand why there's all the signaling in the woods, but I will help with whatever you're you're looking to do. Yeah.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Thank you. I appreciate that. And I you know, it comes up every few years. Absolutely. There's, like, someone who moves downtown and goes, wait a minute. Too loud.

[Margaret Clark]: That was shocking.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. I think it was shocking. And so then on that point, kind of generally with the stations, really appreciate the work that was done at AOT spearheaded around our station as well in White River. We have an old I think it's called the I don't remember the number. It's like the 747 or something. Don't Right?

[Andrew Perchlik]: I don't

[Margaret Clark]: know what the number

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: is. But it's an old locomotive. Okay. And we have a covering for it. And there's going to be some work. I I'm if you're doing anything with the two fifty thing, I don't know if you're doing with

[Margaret Clark]: the America Two Fifty? Okay.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. If you're doing anything to zhuzh up stations

[Margaret Clark]: Okay.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Or anything around that, we would be very grateful for any kind of support because we associate that training with America and two fifty, and it's gonna be featured in a parade. Yeah. So if you have any way that you can support the two fifty Okay. Thing this year at stations, I think you would get even a station, a special thing to let people know what's happening because it's gonna be a big thing in my town, and the railroad station is gonna be a hub for a lot of things.

[Margaret Clark]: I can't agree with you, Morrison. I'm like, I don't know what the plans are for the February, but I know that United States is built on railroads. Yeah. The end. And there's no if, ands, or thoughts about it. So I will see what we have in our repertoire and get back to you on on what we can do. But I You want I definitely think we'd be able to to do something. Yeah. It would be

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: great to have Yeah. Do that. Because that's where we're my And

[Margaret Clark]: how far is White River Junction from here?

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: About an hour. Okay. It's on the way. Yes. If you it's the junction. So if you were on 89 or 91, you probably, like, through. I might go take a little ride. Yeah. Go see

[Wendy Harrison]: him and That's see really great.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Or take the train.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Or take the Yes.

[Wendy Harrison]: We need more service.

[Margaret Clark]: Agree.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I have

[Richard Westman]: one question. No. We have one question. One statement from the agency itself, and then you get thirty seconds.

[Michelle Boomhower]: Alright. Senator Perchlik. Thank you, senator Windham. Michelle Boom Howard from Agency of Transportation. I just wanted to toss out there that we have some really good news on the Amtrak Ethan Allen front. We're gonna be able to drop twenty minutes from that schedule Yeah. Starting this spring, and and that's because of our continuously welded rail project and getting that on board. And so we're really excited to get folks to New York City and get them to Vermont quicker.

[Richard Westman]: So Good. Good news. Just make sure you don't squeeze my No.

[Michelle Boomhower]: We do a show. Into your shit.

[Richard Westman]: Good. Good. Good. Good.

[Margaret Clark]: Good. Time of time.

[Richard Westman]: It's a it's it it's really good. Excited. You know? If I go to Virgin's and I park my car, it's free parking, and I get out of the Penn Station, and I'm two blocks from everything. So I'm really happy. And and are we gonna have turns on the wheel so zhuzh up is

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yes, sir. That's a technical term. I was

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah. I don't know.

[Margaret Clark]: It was I was reading what you were picking. Was reading was what up. Understand. We'll we'll take a look and see what we have.

[Richard Westman]: I just had a quick

[Andrew Perchlik]: in here, it says by law, track trades are required to receive preference. I thought it I didn't this is a national. Is that afternoon?

[Margaret Clark]: No. No? That was actually part of the

[Andrew Perchlik]: I didn't understand the traditional part of that then. It's like

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: but they don't get it.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Is that kinda what you're saying? Like, by law, they're supposed to get it, but the freight companies are like, we're losing money if we do that, so we're not gonna, basically.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: There are moments I'm giving you a

[Margaret Clark]: little that that we do run into to freight traffic that does not honor that. Okay. And they're we I try to be as politically correct as possible. So, yes, and it's been part of since Amtrak came to fruition. Okay. And that was part of the agreement when Congress formed Amtrak and took the off the rates books.

[Richard Westman]: Thank you so much.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Thank you.

[Richard Westman]: Wow. We really appreciate it.

[Margaret Clark]: Well, I really appreciate being invited, and I look forward to zooshing up.

[Richard Westman]: Alright. Yes.

[Margaret Clark]: No. 02:50. We're going there. Cool. Know what I mean? Watch out.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: I'm just gonna

[Wendy Harrison]: Go out for a minute.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. I'll take you to my.

[Richard Westman]: Joel and Ashley. Do you both wanna sit up here, or is it do you wanna sure. Sure. Why don't you both look?

[Joel Perrigo]: I'm I'm doing a restart. I swear. Every time I do this building, this computer is so wacky.

[Richard Westman]: Well, it can be quite active.

[Joel Perrigo]: Or you can wack

[Richard Westman]: it back here, but you might as well Yeah.

[Margaret Clark]: You have the link.

[Joel Perrigo]: So that I have joined the meeting to share from it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ashley Atkins]: Has it just restarted? Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Or do you know you're looking at that yet?

[Ashley Atkins]: I do not know what I'm looking at yet.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Over the shelf then. So you are. Right? Apparently.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So Grand Isle Ferry. Mhmm. Area 315 going north past past very low. Got the ferry dock, actually. They did pretty bad today. They show somebody's gonna be asking these things. Maybe I'm gonna. I

[Ashley Atkins]: might have it in my email.

[Margaret Clark]: It goes today.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I think it's Bailey's hot off, but it's gonna keep you guys happy.

[Richard Westman]: Yes. Michelle at 08:34. I know which way to

[Wendy Harrison]: go. Sorry. It's okay. Thursday. I'm good. Thank you.

[Richard Westman]: Let us know if we Yeah. You you might need to beat the center of your wife.

[Wendy Harrison]: No. I think I got it.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. Never mind. Came to You know, collaborate.

[Andrew Perchlik]: They did a good job with the clock. Yeah. They moved they came in, but I didn't see it. It's not gonna be. You no. You know how they did it? Because I was bothering you.

[Wendy Harrison]: I'll find out for you. I'll find out.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Alright.

[Joel Perrigo]: The document is up. I'm getting Zoom is,

[Richard Westman]: like, circling around. We're being patient. You're you're in.

[Margaret Clark]: Alright. Might be ready. K. Maybe

[Joel Perrigo]: time for a new one. I've had this one a long

[Richard Westman]: Thank you,

[Wendy Harrison]: I'm good. I

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: let you in, but I'm

[Joel Perrigo]: It's not it's, like, spinning on my end. Wireless has slow all morning. Oh,

[Andrew Perchlik]: alright. We'll get there.

[Joel Perrigo]: We made it. Do you want me to start? Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Richard Westman]: Alright. We're we're just waiting for you.

[Joel Perrigo]: Okay.

[Richard Westman]: The right serial number. Yep. And

[Joel Perrigo]: My name is Joel Perrigo. I'm the nutrients, municipal assistance program manager.

[Ashley Atkins]: Ashley Atkins, deputy director of district maintenance and fleet. And

[Andrew Perchlik]: I slipped back on here a little bit. Give me one second.

[Joel Perrigo]: And so I came in here today to provide you some information on her. Showed me the money guide. I was here last year to present this. It was slightly outdated at the time. We did do an update over the the last year, so you'll see a January date on here now. But this is just a breakdown of all of the grant programs that come from VTrans to municipalities. A little small caveat I can think of in there is the town highway bridge program is not an actual grant, but it is it is detailed in in this document. So these are these are grants that come from municipal assistance as well as out of bachelors shop, public transit, and so on. So intended to be sort of a one stop shop if a town has a question on where they can find

[Andrew Perchlik]: funding for particular pigmentation projects. That might that we were

[Joel Perrigo]: just to sort of ramble through each of the different programs. And if you have any questions along the way, just certainly let me know. The third program that shows up is the the Better Roads program. Combination of of both clean water and state funding comes through this program. Small and best management practice type projects. I'd say probably 80% of the funding is intended to, help municipalities comply with their, with the requirements of the municipal roads general permit. So this one, the clean water funding, all goes to that side of things. Some of the transportation funds, helps to fund the category d grants, some of which are larger in stream cohorts. The other category a and category b are specific to the MRGP requirements. Category c sort of flops back and forth between the two. That's like stream bank stabilizations, shoreline stabilization type projects. There's a 20% match local match required on these. Some of these projects or a lot of these projects are done with municipal forces, but there are certain towns that would would hire this work out.

[Wendy Harrison]: So the schedule, I I'm just hyper focused on the schedule because that that can be a barrier. But it's it's good that so you say applications are due

[Richard Westman]: in the fall?

[Joel Perrigo]: Yep. So typically, we try to have applications due so that because we rely on the pictures a lot to bake to make the awards, we we try to get it so when the leaves are off the trees, but there's no snow on the ground yet. And so it's a little bit of a fine balance there.

[Richard Westman]: That's that's interesting.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. And and also the with the way the funding isn't allocated, the beginning of federal I mean, the state fiscal year.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah. It's just hard for towns who don't have, staff to to, put something, you

[Joel Perrigo]: know For for this particular program thing. Right. The the application is very simple. Most of the time on on this in this program, the road form and

[Richard Westman]: are filling out the application. Good. Good.

[Joel Perrigo]: And quite honestly, they are handwriting it out on a piece of paper, scanning it,

[Andrew Perchlik]: and the

[Joel Perrigo]: town clerk is sending it in to us Good.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Most of the time.

[Wendy Harrison]: And they're able to finish it by September?

[Joel Perrigo]: So we would make we get the applications in the fall, make the awards in the right about now, maybe a little bit later, just before the start of the state fiscal year, and we give them the rest of that particular construction season as well as the following. So about a year and a half.

[Wendy Harrison]: Oh, I'm sorry. Doesn't say the following year. Okay. Got it.

[Richard Westman]: Alright. Good.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. So

[Richard Westman]: and I see 20060. How frequently can they apply for a grant? And it says this is mostly federal? No. Most all state. All state.

[Joel Perrigo]: All state. Some transportation funding. Some clean water funding. Okay. All state funds, though. And how often can a town apply? Every year. And honestly, are times there are years where towns will put in multiple applications, and sometimes they do get them. K. And I know last year there was there was some questions about the the sort of demand and supply, if you will. I didn't bring that today, but when I come in for budget testimony, I'll I'll have that prepared. I can't share that with you.

[Andrew Perchlik]: But is this the program where you do kinda look at what what what the town has received, and you might move them down lower on the list based on the other grants that you've now. Okay.

[Joel Perrigo]: That's That's stuff later on. Okay.

[Andrew Perchlik]: The

[Joel Perrigo]: next is the bike and ped program, which is federally funded. That program typically I'll get take out of the timing. It's it's I don't wanna skip through too much of this, but that program is typically announced coming up very soon, time frame. We give six to eight weeks for municipalities to submit applications. Typically, on a project like this, it's a project that has been through some level of scoping as is included in a master plan somewhere or something like that. We fund all of the scoping requests so as long as they're eligible under a biped project, which then would inform future applications for town. So if they have a segment of sidewalk that they wanna construct from, you know, street x to street y, they can submit a scoping request and accept normally would always be funded. And out of that, they would have all of the information they need to enter into a under an application for a design and construction project in the next phase.

[Wendy Harrison]: And do they need to, comply with the standards? And are are the standards done your your own roadway standards or or by competitive? There's standards that are Big streets? Yeah. Yeah.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: So Jeremy, chief engineer. So the municipal multimodal road guidance, I think, is what you're referring to. So that is, I believe, out for review right now with the anticipation that it'll be completed, I'll just say, fall time frame. So they're not completed, but there there is a draft out.

[Wendy Harrison]: Oh, is that something that we could see? Absolutely. Stamp draft all over

[Margaret Clark]: it? Yep. Okay. I

[Wendy Harrison]: would really like to see that. Yep. Okay. Great. Thank you.

[Joel Perrigo]: The other the other component of the the bike path program is the small scale projects, which are state funded. And so those are intended to be, as as they sound, small in nature, gap projects a lot of times or small replacements of sidewalk that have deteriorated to the point where they're no longer ADA accessible, that sort of thing. That though that funding is for implementation only, and it's a fifty fifty match situation. So, and, typically, those projects are completed in a one to two year time frame. And, again, it's it's up to the town's procurement procedures whether they construct the project or they they hire it out. And the federal portion of that is a eighty twenty match.

[Wendy Harrison]: Question about sidewalks. Sidewalks are really expensive to do, whether the town doesn't buy themselves or contracts out. Could the state have do a master contract that towns could use and just get a better price?

[Joel Perrigo]: Do you have

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: any So I I think that would be difficult without knowing the location and quantity of of that contractor.

[Margaret Clark]: I mean Yeah.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: If you're a contractor in, let's say, how do you how do you point a bid price on something if you don't even know where you would have to travel to do the work? So those sort of retainer contracts, I think, would be challenging to set up with a competitive pricing. Right? We could certainly do it, but I think you would see given the risk and uncertainty, think you'd see even higher pricing.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah. Or or maybe do it by region.

[Joel Perrigo]: We we we do have we have an existing you know, similar to what you're you're saying, we have a an existing Safe Routes to School project that we're about to put out for advertisement, regionalized. Okay. You know, we put out a solicitation to the to all the schools, and they submitted applications. And so

[Wendy Harrison]: And that's for how How

[Joel Perrigo]: much it's a it's a it's various. There's there's sidewalks. I think there's some rectangular rapid flashing beacons in the front of

[Richard Westman]: it, so

[Joel Perrigo]: sort of all over the page. Right.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Thank you. Mhmm. The

[Joel Perrigo]: next program in the book is the grants and aid program, 100% clean water funded. This program is is a formula driven program. So each year annually and actually, we just put a press release out at the beginning of the week announcing this program for this year. We send out what we call initial offers to every municipality under the jurisdiction of the MRGP, and towns make the decision whether or not they want to participate in the program that particular year. They send in, they sign a letter of intent and send it back. Then based on the results of that, we reformulate if 240 of the two sixty are going to participate. They all get a little bit more money, send out a final award letter in the grant. And the grant is very flexible and open. It allows the town to work on any particulars, this is permit language, but any hydrologically connected road segment within their town that is not currently meeting standards. And those and the results are that they have to bring those up to the standard. They submit pictures and invoice to us, and we reimburse them for those costs. It's a eighty twenty split. So, yeah, go ahead.

[Richard Westman]: Well, thanks.

[Wendy Harrison]: It it was a great program. Do you have a sense of how far along you are with the compliance and the whole state?

[Joel Perrigo]: I I would have to look into that. Gen I mean, just sort of anecdotally, I would say that it's I don't know that I even wanna Yeah. Like, seventy, eighty percentage or so completely. Oh, that's great.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah. Because

[Wendy Harrison]: that's how many you can use for

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: other things.

[Joel Perrigo]: So when the when the permit was first implemented, 50% or so of the segments worked in compliance

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay.

[Joel Perrigo]: Based on the inventories.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah. It'd be great to have those numbers, and that's that's something to celebrate, really.

[Joel Perrigo]: That was something I would have to partner with ANR on. Yeah. Definitely. So

[Richard Westman]: give me an idea. So I have a road not crowned correctly or there's something wrong with it. Something that doesn't meet the standards. And how much or how little of the project will it do? So is it mostly culverts that we're replacing and crowning the road and ditching? What are we doing?

[Joel Perrigo]: Everything. So cross cross culvert drainage culverts, crown, removing shoulder burns, stone line ditching, grass line ditching, stone I have to reconstruct a road because the base isn't good. And Outside of the scope of

[Richard Westman]: this program. Right. Yep. So this does roads that are, like, how much how much per mile yeah. Yeah. Like

[Joel Perrigo]: $8,000 per segment is our is our calculated estimate to bring a existing segment, which is 328 feet 100 meters into compliance with the permit if it's not meeting the standard. And that's obviously an average number. K. So

[Andrew Perchlik]: I picture.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. And I think it would be important to know that you'll never be done because windmills form every year when they plow. And so I just wanna sort of highlight that we may have started at 50%, but just because we've done a desegment does not mean that segment's now in compliance. Right.

[Wendy Harrison]: Right. Alright. So I won't count my chicken.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. I don't think it will ever be a 100%. You think it's naturally deteriorating Yeah. All

[Andrew Perchlik]: the time.

[Wendy Harrison]: But, hopefully, in maintenance, that's will it'll it'll be at a lower level. For you. The permanent.

[Richard Westman]: What you're really talking about is an every so many year maintenance program, not something that's really gonna go in and deal with if I've got a town that's got a an $800,000 culvert, it's gonna vary if this is not where we're going. Right. K.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Perfect then.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. These are the eligible examples work that that happens in that program. K. Moving on. The credit pay bill for this program, federally funded. It is a set aside of our block grant funding, So it is a requirement of the agency to use that funding as part of this, and it must go through a competitive process. So each year, we submit we we solicit for applications. We actually expect an announcement on those awards any day now. We're we're required by statute to make those awards by the March. So There's 76 eligible categories under TA, first being on road, off road bike ped facilities. The second is more related to it's bike ped facilities, but more related to nondriving for folks that need to access daily needs, conversion of rail road corridors for rail trails, turnouts, overlooks, viewing areas, e community improvement. Generally speaking, the only application we ever received in that category is for historic preservation purposes. And then f is the environmental mitigation category, which our current statutes require us to make 50% of our awards in that particular category. And that's where we fund, like, salt sheds as well as some stormwater infrastructure type projects.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Oh, wait. Yeah. Know. I was like

[Richard Westman]: You were after.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: I I shot out my hand. So on salt sheds wait.

[Richard Westman]: Can you

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: oh, here we go. So so have you can you tell us who's applied?

[Joel Perrigo]: A lot of towns. And a lot of towns have turned down the money, mostly because of the costs associated with the federal funding aspects of the product of the program.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Okay. I guess so I'm thinking that community of Reading, they came up to me during town meeting break, and they are trying to build a saltsion slash another connection Mhmm. Associated with rebuilding a garage, and they're potentially gonna ignore their borders grant. Mhmm. So how does this are you able to use the funding overlapping? Because that's, to your point. That seems to be where people fall down.

[Joel Perrigo]: So this funding would not that and that's another point. We've had, like, the town of Bennington applied for a grant at one point, and they intended to use it as part of a sort of a more grander plan of of a public works facility. Well, this is not eligible for that purpose. It's literally simply because you won't see in the enabling legislation anything that says about salt sheds. It's more about fluke prevention. So we've had to actually guide towns to ensure that they understand that they they can't put heating in their building and extra offices because it's not eligible under this funding.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Okay. Is there any place within well, maybe you'll get to it. Are you going to get to a program there would be something eligible for those types of

[Joel Perrigo]: Not through not through Trebetrians. No. You mean talk you're talking, like, other types of transportation buildings and stuff?

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: There's nothing.

[Joel Perrigo]: Well, it's just that you Northern borders might be.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Well, you could use the the other road grant for that if the town wanted to.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Oh, you could.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Can't you use that grant for anything? Local roads related. You could buy a truck with it. You can put it into your road.

[Joel Perrigo]: Town Highway Aid? That'd be like Yeah.

[Richard Westman]: Could use Town Highway. That's Town Highway Aid's difference.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. That that's your formal AA. That's the Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Normally. Because you can use it for a bill. You can

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: use it for whatever you want.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Right. Does that have to be transferred to a different lady? Transportation for that?

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. I mean, it just you get it you get it set out on an annual basis. And if you wanna buy sand rate, you can. If you wanna

[Richard Westman]: But that's not a grant program. Right. Is no. No. That's not.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: What's the bonding? Do you work with folks to help them find a bond, for example? Because I'm just trying to think through, like, this community really wants this. They're working on it. They've got a plan. They're hoping the Northern Border Grant comes through. They don't have any ability to use town Highway A because they're already way underwater.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Exactly. They probably get such a small amount. Exactly.

[Andrew Perchlik]: They could go to Vermont.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. So we're

[Joel Perrigo]: Well, that's in turn The the SID the state infrastructure bank. Is that what you mean? That is in this program, but that still has to be eligible under title 23 to go through SID. But it

[Andrew Perchlik]: could also just go to the bond bank separately for for municipal bond. Right.

[Wendy Harrison]: I think USDA all around. Oh.

[Richard Westman]: It does. Okay. What's the the money through ANR and the the cleanup if you're within the Lake Champlain Basin and we're cleaning up the TMDLs, there is there is money there, but you're not in the Lake Champlain Basin. Yeah. That that's part of the salt bill is the issue when Totally. Yes. When you get a small town like Redding. I had Elmore that They did the numbers. They worked for almost fifteen years to put together the money to be able to move their salt shed, which was less than a 100 yards from Lake Elampton. And they're trying to move it, and they couldn't figure out how to get the money to do it. That's a problem.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: We should think through I mean, I think there's a glaring issue with buildings for our municipal transportation folks, and they're pretty stable costs. You know? Unlike a road where you've got consistent maintenance costs, I do think a simple grant program to support those types of buildings would be extremely well received. And there's really not it sounds like there's not a lot of avenues for folks to get funding, so they have to go to their local property taxes, which I guess is the right lever for them, but it seems like something that we could help support as a state. So just about

[Wendy Harrison]: that. Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Did you do we still is there a committee that picks the grants? There used to be.

[Joel Perrigo]: There used to be. If it was written in the statute there's been a committee, yes, but it's not statute and so forth. It's it's it's primarily folks from B TRANS, but then we also have folks from ANR that participate sort of a and they they provide a lot of insight on the environmental mitigation side of the project. So

[Andrew Perchlik]: So the committee, the legislative part of that committee went away a few years ago? Yes.

[Joel Perrigo]: Quite a few years ago now.

[Andrew Perchlik]: My age. Yeah. I mean,

[Joel Perrigo]: ten years maybe. Yeah. That's about right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Richard Westman]: Mean, Kinda called clerk, and he says, okay. Let's see how much my card needs. So

[Joel Perrigo]: you'll see that it does say a maximum grant award of $300,000, which isn't currently what's written into statute. There was some not notwithstanding language in the 2023 transportation bill that allows for us to make grants in the amount of $600,000, which is scheduled to sunset fiscal year '27. I'm actually walking upstairs to testify with the house this morning that we are is proposing to make some changes to those those caps.

[Richard Westman]: What's the average project cost that this might fund?

[Joel Perrigo]: I'm gonna guess just under a million dollars. You know, going back to your point, sidewalks, shared use paths are about $500 per linear foot all in when you're talking and that's design, permitting, construction, construction oversight. But that's that's a straight sidewalk with no bridges.

[Richard Westman]: So under the rules, we're we're someplace in reviewing the rules because there's 600 over here, but in statute, it's 300. But if we left just the base program and the average project is a million, we cover about 30%. Right. Okay.

[Wendy Harrison]: And then what proportion of the applications are you able to support?

[Joel Perrigo]: Well and I will share better details when I come in for for project that point. But the last two years, we've we've been funding all of the projects. And and this year, we will be funding all of the Wow. All of the eligible

[Richard Westman]: Okay. Projects.

[Joel Perrigo]: But your eligibility is Only two projects this year were considered ineligible. And then and then and the ineligible Yes.

[Richard Westman]: But but nobody applies for something that they know they're immediately gonna be turned down on.

[Joel Perrigo]: Right. But my my definition of ineligibility here is they're they're applying under the environmental mitigation category for projects that are not creating any sort of clean clean water benefit. They're they're it's simply a conveyance of dirty water from here to dirty water over there. They're not actually implementing some sort of

[Andrew Perchlik]: Right.

[Joel Perrigo]: Clean water strategy, and that's why it's ineligible. Yeah.

[Wendy Harrison]: So how many did oh, sorry. Yeah.

[Richard Westman]: Go ahead.

[Wendy Harrison]: How many did you

[Joel Perrigo]: 19. Great. I think.

[Wendy Harrison]: 19 projects? Yeah. Good.

[Joel Perrigo]: That's very That's good. Early because we haven't actually announced them. But

[Ashley Atkins]: Okay. Go ahead.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Do do you are you able to fund them all because Oh, yeah. Just you have the money to do all of them or due to the fact that people are turning back money? Yes.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. And

[Joel Perrigo]: that's sort of where some of the points that we're making with the house today to help with the flexibility of this funding is we have in the last the numbers in front of me. But over the last five years, we've had about a 35 cancellation rate specific to the environmental mitigation category. And and the issue becomes that we only have four years to get this funding obligated. Otherwise, we are in a situation where we have potentially lapsing funds. And if they lapse, they're no longer available to be to Vermont. And so we're scrambling, and it's happening on an annual basis. So we need that flexibility to provide more money to the towns at a time when it makes sense. Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Two things. One, theirs is a 20% match, but I thought you're, you know, back and forth with shares was that if you're only doing, like, a a 3030% your money, 70% that. But it's the other way. Chase based off as this 20% local cash match. Right. So you're paying 80%. Yes. Perfect.

[Richard Westman]: And then But you're paying 80% of the capped amount.

[Joel Perrigo]: Right. No. No. I'm which the $300,000 is is the capped amount. So for so for

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: a bigger project, that was your point.

[Andrew Perchlik]: For if it's if it's a large if if

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: they if they hit the cap, then they're not gonna get 80% of the project.

[Richard Westman]: Well gotta pay their all it it's on their own done. If the project's an $800,000 project, you do $80.20 on on the 300 and the 500. They were on their own.

[Joel Perrigo]: Or they come back to us through our bike ped program and we give them a separate grant Yeah. Which takes more time, more effort, duplication of lots of different things, grant agreements and amendments and the agreement with Federal Highway and all the reporting we do with them, a lot of administrative burden. And that's why we're arguing that the cap would be Yes. Beneficial if it was

[Richard Westman]: And what you can use this for is quite a narrow path. Correct. It's 19 projects and Right. £246. That's kind of Right. Yeah. It that's not to say it's not for Yep. That it's just. What what is the main reason that that 30%

[Andrew Perchlik]: reduction rate well, would

[Richard Westman]: you say the main reason that

[Joel Perrigo]: But most of them are the sand and salt trends. I mean, a lot of that comes down to the fact that, you know, our our process, which our our process, our our our bid documents, our specifications are all established in for linear transportation projects, and we're not well established for the the exceptions, which are these. And then, plus, maybe I missed what you said earlier.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So they apply for a salt check, and you say,

[Joel Perrigo]: well, that's eligible, or you say it's not a It is eligible.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So then why do they have to turn

[Joel Perrigo]: around and say, like, we don't want this. What's the what's the Because the costs become a lot more with the federal aid process. The local match goes up because of that. And what's what's, like, what's the federal process that's mean? Is it that the It's it's hiring a consultant to go through a fully engineered set of plans. It's going through NEPA. It's going through the Uniform Act for right away. It's it's time. Okay.

[Andrew Perchlik]: It's So it's NEPA and other federal environmental departments. And they didn't kind of realize that they took the grant. Correct.

[Joel Perrigo]: I mean, we we made it clear. Yeah. But they'll they'll always listen. Extend. Right.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And how does it show up

[Joel Perrigo]: with it? Correct. I mean, even this manual says, you know, progress take on average three to five years to complete. That's that is the reality of it.

[Andrew Perchlik]: You have or more you So

[Joel Perrigo]: when we we we get an annual apportionment apportionment under TA, and we have four fiscally federal fiscal years to obligate that funding.

[Wendy Harrison]: Have you been able to obligate all that you have had?

[Joel Perrigo]: Yes. Good. We've never lapsed since. There's list of eligible applicants. School districts. That's good. School districts are safer to school. Infrastructure projects are eligible under this program.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Does it have to be

[Joel Perrigo]: a public school? It does not. Private schools are eligible. So so as long as the the main portions of the project are publicly accessible piece. If you're putting a sidewalk that's serving a private school, but it's in the public Right.

[Andrew Perchlik]: They do with, like, three acre water project. Right. Right. Right. Which one? Or a storm water. The

[Joel Perrigo]: next one is the municipal highway storm water mitigation program, also federally funded. It's sort of a sister component of the TA. We actually solicited it all as one. Think of it as, like, an add on. You'll see it in the white book as a stand alone line. It's just an amount added to that TA. So we select projects under that environmental mitigation category. We just select a few extras using this program. So same eligibility as those projects under the TA. These are sort of the typical projects that would be funded.

[Andrew Perchlik]: You remind me when I checked in. Is that those, like, in a in a culvert that just kinda slows water down?

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. Typically in a in a, like, a stone lined ditch, you'd see, like, on a steep section of roof. Slow the water down, it moves the sill. Okay. Yeah. I don't if that's on here, but that definitely is not a good project for the municipal highway storewide mitigation program, but

[Andrew Perchlik]: should look into that.

[Joel Perrigo]: But, again, this is federal, like, 80% federal, 20% cash local.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So what's the swirls out there?

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. Got some interesting titles here.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. Another stormwater engineer. But those are I think those are, like, an underground system that removes the silt from the water. Oh, okay.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: What we learned about at the Wethersfield town meeting, they have implemented a system next to their room called the beaver deceiver Oh, yep. Which that, I guess, is a whole other line of I don't know if that would be covered, but they spent some serious money because a beaver kept making a dam basically and then flooding the road and holding up this culvert as well. One. They well, like, made the whole family.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I'm gonna save those so much. Well,

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: I don't know if that would cover, but, like

[Joel Perrigo]: Not here. Not here. No. This is all related to sort of clean water practices.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. So and do you prioritize the area of the state that is under EPA?

[Margaret Clark]: Know?

[Joel Perrigo]: The clean like, Champlain Basin.

[Richard Westman]: Yeah. Not

[Joel Perrigo]: generally with this funding. It's it's just based on really just sort of the merits of that particular project, you know, clean water benefits, anticipated

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: clean water.

[Wendy Harrison]: That's Okay. So it's the whole state?

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. It's the whole state. Good. Even even the funding that comes through the clean water, though, that's statewide. There's no prioritized areas in the state. Missile park and ride program also comes through missile assistance. It's an annual, state funded program. We only get probably three or four applications per year. We're at the point, I think, where we probably are going to put the program on a pause for a period of time until there's a demand again. We did that five, six years ago now. We're at the point where most municipalities have these sort of established facilities, and now we're we're simply getting, you know, maybe a a few applications maybe for lighting or or now we're even, like, redoing some of the facilities that we've originally constructed as far as, like, the surface. Maybe they started with a gravel surface, and

[Andrew Perchlik]: they're paving it now. The Exit 2 Park And Rhine or Karen, or is that was that your district?

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: What's your? Is it 2 On 89?

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah. Yeah. On 89. Sharon, is that a state one?

[Joel Perrigo]: Or That's a state one. That's not a town. I'm saving that for my buddy. Okay. Okay. I got something for you.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Okay. Good. Yeah. I'm looking forward.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Okay. Good. You mean the veterans?

[Joel Perrigo]: The The veterans.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Well, it's a Vietnam No.

[Andrew Perchlik]: No. No. No. You're talking about the rest area. This is southbound. Northbound is the is the Next to the store. Next to the store. And the horseshoe pits.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Oh my god.

[Wendy Harrison]: Oh, yeah. Talking about that.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Throwing the spoiler alert.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. You are.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Okay. Well,

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: I'm very excited about this. No. We should. And in fact, the church is now becoming, like, a community center.

[Richard Westman]: So Oh, yeah. That It's

[Andrew Perchlik]: got a

[Margaret Clark]: lot of good activity.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Okay. So that's sorry to bring that up.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. So this program is is only in I think it's been in the white book for about a $150,000 the last three years. It's an $80.20 split. So town highway bridge program, it's in here, but it's actually not a grant program. Those projects go through our structure section. So there's some information on here about if a town, you know, were to have a town, have a bridge project, sort of what the split is and that sort of thing in here. So Let's see. Then we're on to athletes part of this.

[Ashley Atkins]: So first one is program. This is state grants for bridges, like tall bridge over 36 inches along with retaining walls on class ones, twos, three.

[Andrew Perchlik]: How is it different from the other bridge program that you just went by? Or are you gonna say that?

[Ashley Atkins]: This is this is one of the actual granting programs that's the municipalities put in their grants every they're April 15.

[Andrew Perchlik]: There's a bridge specific program, and then this is structures, which could be bridges or other structures?

[Ashley Atkins]: Correct. Yeah. This could be this program is for any structure larger than 36 inches and retaining walls. It is State Farm. There's a maximum of 200,000. It is a $80.20 20 cash for for the town. It is $90.10 if the town have adopted their codes, the the town road bridge standards.

[Andrew Perchlik]: You tried

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: how many bridges you

[Andrew Perchlik]: can go 1,500? Yeah.

[Richard Westman]: No. 400. This is probably mostly COVID. Because COVID's retaining that. So and the the difference is the program before, if you're a bridge over 20 feet, you get your eighty twenty match, and you get your federal match. K. This is if you're under 20 feet, you don't. It's all state dollars. But It's all local dollars. You can get this.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Okay.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. We do try to work with the town for kind of that that great or that area in between as far as, you know, work with them to get an engineering grant for a larger structure, such as, like, a short structure if it's an arch, and then follow-up with a construction grant. So it'd be two of these grants that they could be eligible for up to $400,000.

[Richard Westman]: So do we have any estimates on what the costs of different sized Covids are?

[Ashley Atkins]: Not through this program. It's really hard to track as far as we track how much money allocate. We can track on average. It's this many small culverts, this many small bridges, or this many retaining walls, but not not the detail of, on average, this type of structure cost around this amount of dollars just because there's there's a lot of factors that go into play for the cost to be able to give you that average through this program.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: And actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't necessarily just for either placement structure. If you wanna, like, shore up a wing wall or putting a Kimberdeck on, new Bridgerail, you could use this. Absolutely.

[Ashley Atkins]: And you're trying to

[Andrew Perchlik]: repair six inch thing comes in? You're talking about the when you mentioned 36 inches, you're talking about length.

[Ashley Atkins]: That's the structured size, the opening, the ending size. 36 inches or larger, a

[Richard Westman]: three foot. Oh, it's the old diameter. So it's this Yeah. It's

[Andrew Perchlik]: not okay. I always thought it was the length of the structure.

[Richard Westman]: Was like,

[Andrew Perchlik]: this short.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah. Yeah. It's fine. Okay.

[Richard Westman]: No. I'm strictly it it's this thirty sixth Okay. Up to the place where you get a bridge more than 20 feet long. Right.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. And even some of those larger bridges, if there's a component of the bridge that might need to have some kind of repair, that could that could come through this program.

[Richard Westman]: What happens to a town that has I'm gonna say big culvert, and I don't know the well, the the kind I can walk through. Right. Big box culvert? A big box culvert or something like that that ends up 25 feet down in the ground and has a cost of 800,000. They just replaced one two years ago in the in my town, and it was just down the road. The they had the big crane there. They weren't real careful, and they kicked the crane over. That's. Yeah. But but I'm I'm I'm look it was an $800,000 project.

[Margaret Clark]: How

[Richard Westman]: long have we been at two hundred thousand?

[Ashley Atkins]: Only recently, it was $1.75. Past couple of years, it went up to the 200,000, but that's where we really try with an engineering grant to, like, help cover some of those plans, the cost that Joel was speaking to earlier as far as part of the reason why the federal programs are a little bit higher to try to help these municipalities with these much bigger projects that have a much bigger cost to them to try to stretch that dollar as far as we can go. But you're still only talking 400,000 if you take the two grants, the engineering and the construction. We have worked in the past where there was one structure that was South Burlington and real estate. It was a shared structure that both municipalities received engineering grants, both municipalities received construction grants, and there was also a sidewalk component, if I remember correctly, that utilized one of Joel's programs as well to try to help with that total cost of of the project.

[Richard Westman]: How and how many grants do we give out a year?

[Ashley Atkins]: We give out about 36% of what's applied for. I don't have the exact total right now as far as how many

[Richard Westman]: And do peep do towns apply every year? Are they eligible every year?

[Ashley Atkins]: Towns can apply as much as they want if they want to

[Margaret Clark]: apply every year or if

[Richard Westman]: they want to do we give in a location?

[Ashley Atkins]: Yep. The structures are looking more roughly around every four to six years, and class two is probably it's very similar just based on that q as you were talking about earlier. It is equitable distribution. And so the town has retake the total funding that the town's received versus the total funding that's been allocated to that district and and go least to greatest for ratio.

[Richard Westman]: Are towns aware of that it's gonna be four to six years? So some of them might not apply on a regular basis?

[Ashley Atkins]: Yes. Towns are very rare. We meet with the towns quite often in the in the springtime to help them work through their annual financial plans. Just give them a heads up. Hey. You look like you're in the queue of maybe 12 out of 26 towns. It's definitely worth applying because who knows that those 11 towns in front of you would actually apply. Or do you have something smaller in nature that wouldn't affect too much that ratio at the end for future grants, but something just to to help get you by if you have a 36 inch pipe that you want to replace. You know, it's it's not too

[Richard Westman]: much Even knowing that there's a know, and all of this is going on and and you've got we we do one in three. We do what? We we one in three applications that come in, we find. Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: 3030% of applications or 36% of the money?

[Ashley Atkins]: 30% 36% of what was applied for was funded.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Project wise, not dollar wise. Project wise. And

[Richard Westman]: and and that might be and the town might have a whole lot above the four the two or the four. Mhmm. Yeah.

[Ashley Atkins]: And if it counts a bit more than one application, we just ask them to prioritize.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And do they compete just within their district? Correct. And that that applies your cycles to the district, or is that district?

[Ashley Atkins]: That's district.

[Andrew Perchlik]: District.

[Richard Westman]: Mhmm.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And the districts, are they funded pro rata of some sort, or is it just each district? It's a floppy thing. I assume there's some type of formula.

[Ashley Atkins]: There's a formula that's that's based on total structures within that district.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Okay. Structure's not population or anything else. Probably Good. I want to understand. So

[Richard Westman]: there's a lot at demand here.

[Joel Perrigo]: Can I add one thing, Drew? Sure. You asked about an $800,000 project. We have funded an a number of box culvert projects through the municipal highway stormwater program in the past. I mean, I don't know what the number is, but, you know, I've ten, twelve, those types of structures that have fallen at that neighborhood. And I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, statute allows for this program to be used as match to a federal grant if they chose to do that for, like,

[Andrew Perchlik]: a bigger type of project.

[Ashley Atkins]: So In this program, I did forget to add as well that historically, the statute has been 7,200,000.0 for this program. And, because the allocation to the statute of that annual increase, now we're looking just shy of 7.4 based on the governor's recommend for an allocation issue. So roughly one more for you if applying for the maximum.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah. I know.

[Richard Westman]: Totally and and totally appreciate where we are. I would just say that for medium and smaller towns, and it it can be the same for bigger towns, but particularly for medium and smaller towns, When you get slammed with a road that is has that kind of culvert, you're a town of 1,500 people, it it's a big hump. Big money? Yep. It's big money for those.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Do do the towns know that they can use the grants for federal a portion of the grant with the federal money? Could you are they aware of that?

[Joel Perrigo]: That's a

[Andrew Perchlik]: new stuff.

[Richard Westman]: I don't know.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I mean, how how would we get that message out to those guys?

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. We'll definitely have to double check that language on

[Richard Westman]: on that one.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Gotta make sure that that's

[Ashley Atkins]: Yep. We we typically send out a letter every February 1 to all of the staff and say, hey. The applications are open and provide a lot of those supporting details at that point in time. And so I'm not necessarily aware of that. So if that is the case, we can definitely tag on to that email to just make sure that everybody's aware while we're still up a month and a half until the applications are due. And if that is a practice, we can just add

[Richard Westman]: it into that that annual blast that we do there. Most towns don't know this. The last chance thing, this is an area where it's a stumbling block of.

[Andrew Perchlik]: The next one is the class two.

[Ashley Atkins]: Class two. Alright. So so in the past, that's been at 8.6. We've got 8.83 due to that that same, increased annual based on the modification to that statute. This is for class two roadways within a town. Class three roadways are eligible if a town does not have a state road or a class one roadway going through their town. It's at the max of $200,000, the same as the structures. The local match is 30 or 30% or 20% if you have your council code standards signed. We have been about 25% of the the total funds requested through the application have been awarded. So slightly about 10% less than the structures program. That percentage, I believe it to be a little bit off just because of fiscal year twenty one when we didn't have any grants to allocate due to due to COVID and we had doubled up the year before. There was one grant that was awarded in that that calendar year, so that threw off the average a little bit with six fiscal years versus really, really, it's five.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: But

[Ashley Atkins]: that's the program in a nutshell. Have a couple numbers just for, you know, what does that really mean. It's a little bit easier to look at the total funding and having miles repaved versus the structures with just the range of sizes. So for fiscal year twenty six, you know, we had assisted with 75 miles worth of restructuring, recaving, and kind of repairs, which is about a $118,000 per lane mile. That's what that equates to.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And does does the grant have to be at least at the section of the road? Is the section is the terminology because of 100 meters?

[Joel Perrigo]: Oh, you're kind of hydrologically connected. So Yeah. Under the permit. No.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So you don't use any can they do any amount of the road? Like, to keep it under 200,000, just, like, try to do a smaller amount?

[Ashley Atkins]: They could pay for point four miles and do a full blown reconstruction, or they could pay for two miles and maybe it costs 420,000 and then use $200,000

[Wendy Harrison]: of the program. Okay.

[Richard Westman]: So the question comes up, any miles of road in the state are eligible statewide that the town is maintained?

[Ashley Atkins]: We could do that quick analysis with the class twos pretty easily with with the data that we have within VTrans, and we'll just have to add in double check the class three for the townships that do not

[Richard Westman]: have those. You did 75 miles. Correct. And I'm and, literally, the roads that might be eligible for this are is in the thousands of miles. Correct. So we're resurfacing or redoing in pavement projects third of a percent. Not many times of doing it on their own. You know? Found Well, I no. I under Yeah.

[Ashley Atkins]: Through this program, yes, the the percentage is very small as far as what we're able to pay versus what the what the towns have statewide.

[Joel Perrigo]: But that's not considered a condition either.

[Richard Westman]: That's why.

[Joel Perrigo]: Not considering the condition. Right? We were saying that, yeah, all of these roads are eligible, but how many of those how many of those miles are actually

[Richard Westman]: Well, you should require Usually, on a base, we try to we have a schedule for the state, and we try to do It has to And I don't think we let any road to a pass once every twenty years. Right? I bet we do, actually. Well, not because we want to.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: No. No. No. No. I'm sure that there are state routes that have not been taped in the last

[Richard Westman]: twenty years. But but it's that that's not optimal. Correct. 100%. And so for the communities, this is huge. And

[Wendy Harrison]: and what did you say the cost was for lane miles?

[Ashley Atkins]: In fiscal year twenty six, 75 miles. We gotta start a $118,000 per month. I'm sorry. A 118.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Total cut? That'd be great.

[Ashley Atkins]: That was where we took our allocation, and then based on the applications, what they said that they're going do with that. I think that is the the quick math that we did for here's how much we allocated. Here's how many miles we believed were repaved through these applications to get to that dollar figure.

[Richard Westman]: That's not 1% of Windham County's

[Andrew Perchlik]: Is it all pavement, or is it on gravel reserves?

[Ashley Atkins]: Most of it's pavement, but gravel is is eligible. And this is based on the fiscal year twenty six months, which these these grants are thirty month, terms. And so that is what we're we're seeing for what we had allocated and what was in the allocation. It could vary based on what they actually got for the bid prices. Will

[Wendy Harrison]: you know what they got for the bid prices?

[Ashley Atkins]: We will know internally within our districts because there's a lot of that communication that happens, but that's not something that comes back to

[Wendy Harrison]: the program. Because it'd be nice to know Track. Just, yeah, the cost per mile. Mhmm.

[Andrew Perchlik]: The track the state. Like, we've got that current referral in the last six states. I assume that's the same.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Oh, we do? It it it's all about the same because the for the specs, aren't the same. I mean, this is largely free for all, and we're just sort of counting on contractors doing a good job. They don't have the same oversight and inspection requirements. Yeah.

[Richard Westman]: But I I would just say you said you forwarded to me from the Regional Planning Commission in Windham County that the municipalities maintain 1,700 miles of road. And what we're able to help with statewide is 75. Yeah. Okay. How's that? Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: That's that's good.

[Richard Westman]: So that's that's just for Windham. No worry. Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: 1,700 in Windham.

[Richard Westman]: That's from the Regional Planning Commission.

[Wendy Harrison]: I can send that to everybody else too. It's a really good presentation.

[Richard Westman]: Yeah. I've asked the agency if we we could get the numbers. What are the statewide numbers that would be in the different categories? When we should be able to provide that because or at least a ballpark.

[Ashley Atkins]: Yeah. We do have the mileage calculations for all the class two miles, so we we could take that data just to get a little bit more of a eye to eye as far as class two miles for this rotary program to class two miles that we have stabilized.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. That'd be

[Richard Westman]: So 75 miles.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah. So the so this presentation that, the regional commission did in house transportation is there's a graph that shows the pounds. It's it's it's it's essentially based on towns and and and what the the need is in towns. And it looks at the grand list, and the grand list is generally not proportional to the needs. But because a lot of the small towns are small in people, but they have you know, it's still a nine by nine. Right? It's squares, and it's a very rural area. So it's probably very similar to, like, The kingdom, those areas. Yeah.

[Ashley Atkins]: I hope the percentage would be a little bit higher saying how class two cannot be more than 25% of the town's class roadways mile total mileage. It cannot be more than? Correct. Oh, that's interesting. And so, like Can you say that again? Class total class two miles of a a town to not be more than 25

[Richard Westman]: that that their total class miles of

[Andrew Perchlik]: To be eligible for what? Just

[Ashley Atkins]: as far as, like, when the town might wanna reclassify, that's one of the aspects that we look at. Let's say they wanna reclassify from class three to class two. They can exceed that percentage to be for for class two miles.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And the other or just the you won't reclassify?

[Richard Westman]: We won't reclassify. Why why

[Andrew Perchlik]: is it?

[Ashley Atkins]: I would have to to double check as far as with with our PP division. So this is only for

[Andrew Perchlik]: class two roads. You don't want people to, like, reclassify so they get money even though there's not much money. Right.

[Ashley Atkins]: And then with the the town aide, the difference between class two and class three, the the state pays, it's it's quite a quite a bit of a of a difference as well per per mile. So if the town has 1,700 miles, they might have you know, quick math would be like, maybe they have 300 miles of that would be actually class two. So then just the number of miles that we were able to allocate for our program, percentage might be a little bit higher, would be the hope, because we're not comparing to all of them class mileage that a town has maintained. Just the class two.

[Richard Westman]: But the class well, all of the money for any organization like that is is fungible. It's a lot more expensive to tear up a paved road, class two road in a community. And I the town next to Arizona Hill just did a a stretch of road. And by the time they ripped off the pavement and they did the vase and everything, it was so expensive that and what what they got for help and they could save on that, they've got for their other

[Joel Perrigo]: ones. Right.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Are there none that have one more time, 15 close to, or that that requirement is kept down underneath that?

[Ashley Atkins]: That requirement has kept down beneath that. I would have to run some numbers to to verify. But my previous experience is a project manager within district five that's in the county area. And that was something that I worked with the towns quite often with Mhmm. To to say, hey. You could, you know, reclassify 3.1 miles worth of worth of class three, class two to be kinda at that maximum for your allocation to help support your town budget and your maintenance budget and then also be eligible for this program.

[Wendy Harrison]: Is there a reason other than this program that you would want towns to be capped at 25%?

[Joel Perrigo]: I mean The tout highway aid is also

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. So Yeah. But but then other than these the aid, is there any other reason? Because I got only It doesn't make sense.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. I I don't I don't know the history of it, and and I agree that it seems somewhat arbitrary. Yeah. I mean, quite honestly, a urban area should have a higher class two percentage in the

[Richard Westman]: rural area just intuitively. It would leave your formula cost more.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. I mean, there's there's a financial impact for sure, but

[Andrew Perchlik]: I don't know if there's a

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: other justification. This is the first I'm hearing of it, so I don't know.

[Wendy Harrison]: Interesting. Fun fact. Yeah.

[Ashley Atkins]: Okay. Sorry to spring that on.

[Wendy Harrison]: No. No. It's it's good to hear. Yeah.

[Joel Perrigo]: Town Highway Emergency. This is the state funded side of it.

[Ashley Atkins]: So this is Okay. This is my This is you. Alright. Fiscal year twenty seven, the plan is, the same as as previous years of the 01/2015, for for this program. It has it's for non was it non federally declared events that are either from weather or

[Andrew Perchlik]: from from

[Ashley Atkins]: man made events. To be eligible, the shift cost of the repairs need to be exceed 10% or 9% of your of your nonmotor maintenance budget. The program is is used quite a bit. It's it's very fluid as far as if we're if we run less than one year. Historically, we've been able to to allocate more in the next year. The demand is has historically been been quite a bit. Right now, in fiscal year twenty six, we actually have not, administered or allocated any funds through this through this program just because there was has only been one application, and that one application was more due to lack of maintenance is why the structure failed, not because of any kind of weather or or, other type of disaster. But for fiscal year twenty twenty six, there are six app six applications fiscal year twenty five. My apologies. There are six applications. Five were awarded. Fiscal year twenty five, nine applications. Five were awarded. Fiscal year twenty four, we awarded $1,900,000 through this program. And fiscal year twenty five, we awarded 618,000 through this program. It's it's very fluid. It all depends upon what nature provided us. So we had

[Richard Westman]: oh, sorry. No. Do you know how much the governor allocated for this? 1.15. Okay. So

[Wendy Harrison]: we have places that just recently didn't get federal Right. But there was damage. Could they use this?

[Ashley Atkins]: This the quota criteria does align with, with not having a federal declaration. It far exceeds what we have allocated in the fiscal year twenty sixth. And I know there's conversations going on with the administration right now as far as what

[Wendy Harrison]: does that look like in there. Great. I'll get you done. Thank you.

[Ashley Atkins]: But correct your dear ones. They're going on.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah. There there are discussions of finding ways to put more money in that to cover the the the one that we got to imagine. Yeah.

[Joel Perrigo]: The next program comes from our operations and safety bureau. We've actually only sent this program out one other time. There is another round coming. This is funded through highway safety improvement funding. Not one of my programs, but I believe it's a 100. I mean, it says in here. I think it's a 100% federally funded. Did you see something in there? I

[Andrew Perchlik]: just know there was a project in one of my towns, but maybe it was it's a

[Joel Perrigo]: 100%, but there's some Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I'd have to town might have, like

[Joel Perrigo]: I'd to look at that.

[Andrew Perchlik]: They'd have to redo some water pipes underneath of

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: the town to pick up that

[Joel Perrigo]: their own cost. Yeah. So this so the way that this program like said, it's only happened once so far. The way it went out to municipalities was there was certain countermeasures offered to the municipalities. They're very small type implementation type projects, signage, fixed object removal. Like, if you had, like, a large boulder that was in the clear zone, they could or trees that wanted they wanted to be removed, things of that nature, edge line markings. Some of the towns, that's what they did is they just took the money, and they did as much line stripping as they as they could.

[Andrew Perchlik]: It

[Joel Perrigo]: may be eligible. I'm not sure. And I think the last time we did this, the the materials that went out said these are the you know, in that round and it's all based on data. You know, we get the data the money based on fatalities and how they happen. So now we're trying to prevent those in other areas. So we have to put that money into certain certain places.

[Wendy Harrison]: So that's a grant that you might know. Goodies. You have fatalities.

[Joel Perrigo]: Or yeah. I mean, you are in an area that has been identified as a potential

[Wendy Harrison]: Oh, potentially. You

[Richard Westman]: don't have to actually Right.

[Joel Perrigo]: Right. Exactly. Okay. Roads might It's happened somewhere else. It's been identified as a risk. So you know? And so those areas are we're trying to address.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Could it be for pedestrian safety, or is there only a vehicle?

[Joel Perrigo]: Think so. I yeah. This is not my area of expertise on this particular grant, but Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Jesse would be the the point of contact for that.

[Joel Perrigo]: Federal Highway Emergency Relief. So this is when there is an emergency declaration on federal aid highways. So this is always difficult to explain because a lot of your class two roads are federal aid, but not all of them. So some of your class twos and your class ones would fall in this when there's a federal declaration.

[Wendy Harrison]: And that link show is a map. So

[Joel Perrigo]: Correct. It actually shows what yep. Exactly. And so there's two phases of this program. There's an emergency phase where the funds are I believe the projects are covered at a 100% federal, and then it it rises to level of needing permanent restoration. The bridge is gone.

[Andrew Perchlik]: You know, they need

[Joel Perrigo]: to perform a permanent project. The split goes back to the the normal pro rata share, so it'd be $80.20. So this is not FEMA. This is Federal Highway, to be clear. Oh, I'm sorry. Actually, I said eightytwenty on the federal on the current it's actually ninetyten.

[Andrew Perchlik]: So

[Wendy Harrison]: If it's a bridge, do do you get 90% of it?

[Joel Perrigo]: It's ninetyten because of the way state statute is written. It limits the municipal match to 10%. So

[Wendy Harrison]: there's a couple bridges in my area that might actually hold on. And

[Joel Perrigo]: And and, again, it has to be due to disaster, not from deferred maintenance.

[Richard Westman]: Okay. Alright. So then

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. Just point of clarification for for a non interstate. It's eighty ten. Okay.

[Margaret Clark]: The

[Joel Perrigo]: Better Connections grant program is another one that's outside of municipal assistance, but it's done in conjunction with ACCD. These are sort of, like, master planning type grants, small in nature, approximately $200,000 total. And And there's some there's some example projects down here. Active transportation is actually, active transportation planning is probably the most common product you'd see coming out of this.

[Richard Westman]: What is the access management fee?

[Joel Perrigo]: It's it's like looking at, like it's like they have a joint think of down here. The Bear Mountain Player Road where you have driveways all coming in in different directions and, like, trying to prevent, you know, multiple access points and that sort of thing.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Or because You're right.

[Richard Westman]: But none of this goes for, like, any planning. Or This

[Joel Perrigo]: is all planning level funding. This is not implementation dollars. So

[Richard Westman]: we constantly have complaints about that we don't have good information. So who's eligible to receive it? Just the community? Or if the community wanted to say, we've had a number of communities. Brattleboro, Morristown Mhmm. Came in.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: They Rioton?

[Richard Westman]: But they they came in.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. They got in the bridge.

[Richard Westman]: But they it it but those two communities did assessments of the condition of their roads, which is helpful within the planning process to get the community to make it difficult. And the the question is if we were gonna try to get money out to help communities better do an assessment, and maybe the regional planning commission would work to be able to do the region so everybody's gonna get done, would this be a place that would lend itself to explore that sort of an

[Joel Perrigo]: I don't believe so. Not in this program. Not

[Richard Westman]: in this program But but going forward, if if we were gonna look to address something like that, we're would this be some place that we might might look to put funds to change this? Not in Better Connections. No.

[Joel Perrigo]: I don't believe that would be the notation. I don't know the the right program or if the right program even exists.

[Richard Westman]: Yeah. I'm I'm just saying with lack of information about how does a town budget Mhmm. If they can't make an assessment, How will we make an assessment of how to help communities if we can't get the information? I'm just I'm looking for where that conversation might fit. Right. So and this is one of the

[Wendy Harrison]: few programs that has a different set of funding source because it has the ACCD money. Right? So there's

[Joel Perrigo]: some It's done in conjunction with ACCD. It's actually I believe it's federal highway funding, though. I still look into that.

[Wendy Harrison]: Is the it looks like something that would be the the transit what's the word? The transit based, plan development. That's my That's the next one? Okay. So that might be what

[Richard Westman]: we would wanna look at. If we can't the first step in planning is knowing what your problem is. And if I can't do that for all of my communities in the whole state, it's hard to assess what the problems are, what we need to do Yeah. And put together a plan. That's why it you know? And Royalton's so small. How could they do that on their own?

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. They're not able to do it on their own. Yeah. I think we haven't really discussed it, but I've had conversations with Jeremy on this topic. But it is concerning to me that I have constituents who are going to be without a bridge, which there seems to be no grant program that really aligns with their specific need, and they're also unable to afford it as a community. And they're also on the hook to wait until, I believe, 2030 to even potentially get a bridge. And it just doesn't seem like we are prioritizing appropriately if I have over a 100 constituents who are without a bridge, which is delaying access to EMS, access. We had a business that closed because the the bridge is gone, a farm business, an on farm business. So if you care about agriculture is my pitch. And then we are also having another business closed because they are told that they won't have their bridge back. So it really doesn't bug me that we have all these great programs, but there's still this glaringly obvious need in at least one of my communities. And with the transportation revenue shortfall, as you're very aware, there's no end in sight to it. And so I am concerned that we don't have appropriately sized grant programs to meet the needs of our communities. And that's not your fault. That's, in fact, the opposite of your fault. You're really doing the work. So there's not a lot of questions I can ask to that point. But if there are creative solutions, like, I appreciate what the chair has been saying. Like, is there a way that we can address this through the creation of our future grant programs where either we're getting assessments and understanding the scope of town need and rightsizing the grant programs to meet that need? I don't know. But I'm just pretty bummed by the bridge, the box Dan Bridge in Royalton. And when I went to town meeting, I got swarmed by people who

[Andrew Perchlik]: that bridge right by the box.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Jeez. Yeah. I mean, it's soggy. Soggy. Well, I can explain. I'll show you how

[Andrew Perchlik]: I know that.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: And it is gone. Oh. And they

[Wendy Harrison]: thought they

[Andrew Perchlik]: were Is it gone?

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Or It's gone because well, it's unusable.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: This Like, you're not It's

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: not gone. It's yeah. State closed.

[Margaret Clark]: Yes. Yeah. And they were

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: The town closed it out

[Andrew Perchlik]: or because you said it was, you know, horrible. Yeah.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. People don't fall on the river. Good good thing. And they were told that they could wait to get a permanent bridge, and I think they need the calculus to not accept a temporary bridge because they were told they were gonna get a bridge. Now the scoping is happening in this year, but they're not likely to get it funded until till 2030. So you're gonna see me in the detail. Get a temporary. Well, that's a I think they're open to any conversation because people are freaked out.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: So they're appreciates. Yeah. So so I'm

[Richard Westman]: in a little bit

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: off topic, but so, yes, we did we did approach the town and offered a temporary bridge. Now the temporary bridge was, we thought, roughly $3,000,000. And, you know, we would have to go through some design and and permitting process to get that. What the town ultimately chose is not to put in a a temporary bridge because not only would they not have to pay a 10% share on the temporary, but they wouldn't have to pay a 10% share on the permanent. It would be cut to 5%. Mhmm. So there is a significant financial incentive for the town not to install a temporary bridge. Now senator White is right that currently we're showing funding available in 2030. Realistically speaking, the design could be done in twenty seven ish, and we are it's the number one town highway priority right now, and we're trying to move things around within the bridge program as a whole because we do recognize the the impacts to the community. Yeah. But but currently, she's definitely correct at showing up in 2013.

[Andrew Perchlik]: That doesn't pay for the temporary bridge because those are reusable. I assume that $3,000,000 is in in rent.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Correct. Exactly. Oh, in installation. Do they have

[Andrew Perchlik]: to pay rent on the paper?

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: They do. It's nominal. In that case, I don't know because it was so long. I wanna say it's a 120 feet. Right. Don't know if we were gonna actually use something different than our stock just because we didn't wanna do clean our stock.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I think we originally were gonna do that. I don't was gonna be done. I was like, you guys, we're more temporary than this.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Hayes, we'll take one, I think, is where we're at.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I don't think they're that.

[Margaret Clark]: I mean, they'd have to

[Richard Westman]: I I don't want it to look like they're gonna be done with theirs after I mean, just of the temperature. Yeah.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: I mean, that's the bridge itself was certainly the minor cost of that. It's just Right. Again, even if we get on the bridge, launching a 100 and, I'll say, a 20 foot bridge, all the site work, obviously, we'd want that out of the way. So you're creating a new alignment. You know? So I think I think that was estimated to be about a $3,000,000 endeavor.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Yeah. See amendment, the t bill that I'm gonna be introducing. I like hearing it's the number one priority, but it does add thirty minutes of time for an ambulance to get to this part of their community. And there are many elderly people who

[Richard Westman]: live there, and they're very freaked out.

[Andrew Perchlik]: We can vote. There

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: if we can get this bridge, I will be the happiest person. So but it doesn't bother me that there was not an ability for them to get a kind of grant to support us preventing this scenario from happening. Like, if they had been able to scope it out a few years ago and felt that they could afford to do it, I think we wouldn't be in this situation.

[Andrew Perchlik]: About the condition of the bridge prior? I assume they were.

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: Yeah. I I don't know the full history of it. It is a historic trust. Right? So I don't know what the instruction cycle was on it, if it was two years or more frequent. But I think, intuitively, we knew that it was coming. Whether or not we said, hey. In six years or ten years, you're gonna need to do something that seems unlikely. But

[Andrew Perchlik]: Right. Well, I know my dad asked Richard like that when they're, like, well, don't know. Doing their transportation budget. They're like, hey. They worry about us. Pretty soon, you know, in the next ten years, we're gonna have to we're likely gonna have to do this. Yeah.

[Margaret Clark]: Stop that.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah. Good night. I'm sick. Yeah.

[Richard Westman]: Cohort plan. Yeah. Fifteen thirty. So We're we're doing emergency energy. Yes. Yes.

[Joel Perrigo]: Okay. The next one is mobility transportation innovations grant. Admittedly, this is probably the one I know the least about about. It's not out of municipal assistance. So

[Andrew Perchlik]: this is

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: We love the program.

[Wendy Harrison]: Yeah.

[Joel Perrigo]: So you've heard about it probably more than I have. We

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: started it

[Joel Perrigo]: You carry it in the book because it's a grant program with MB Trans. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: This was created by the legislature. Okay. When I was in house transportation, and it funds things like the mover, for example, the Uber transit. And you are funding it again this in your budget this year. Great.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I'm sorry. How much? Yeah. Yeah. I don't.

[Rebecca "Becca" White]: Oh, you're not you haven't presented in the house yet?

[Joel Perrigo]: This is this is in our transit group anyway. So yeah. So I presented. The next one is the the highway safety our governor's highway safety program, NHTSA funding. A lot of these grants are with local sheriffs and police departments Good. Those sorts of things for, radar feedback signs, safety improvements. And then the the last one, I believe, is the state highway state infrastructure bank. Again, this is a these are low interest loans that are provided to municipalities for purposes of potentially a bridge. I know that the the last one that I worked on for this was the town of Berlin. They replaced their culvert on Fischer Road utilizing funding through the state infrastructure bank. The project has to be titled 23 eligible, meaning it has to be eligible for typical funding under Federal Highway, and it does have to go through a a project. It it's a a quasi funding development process. It has to go through NEPA. It has to be certified for the right of way and that sort of thing.

[Wendy Harrison]: So this this could have big dollars.

[Margaret Clark]: For how what

[Joel Perrigo]: I am unsure of the the requirement. And this is outside of the scroll.

[Wendy Harrison]: That's v dup?

[Andrew Perchlik]: Page before? Yeah. Can you just scroll back to 26? 26. Yep. 323%.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. So so that's the loan term.

[Andrew Perchlik]: 1% for municipal.

[Wendy Harrison]: That's nice. For electric vehicles charging stations.

[Andrew Perchlik]: And, yeah, for charging stations. But I think it could be for it's a municipal borrower. It can just be for that.

[Joel Perrigo]: That is all we have. There's some resource information in the bags that I need to document. No.

[Richard Westman]: I I Yeah. I don't

[Andrew Perchlik]: know how much money that we

[Jeremy (VTrans Chief Engineer)]: had if there's limited.

[Andrew Perchlik]: I know the the electric charging, they only have, I think,

[Richard Westman]: a certain amount of money.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. Vida only has a certain amount? Yeah. We're gonna have to find that.

[Richard Westman]: The actual town highway, which we didn't talk about, which is roughly 35,000,000. I think this is Ashley's area.

[Joel Perrigo]: It could actually, I would carry the budget testimony for.

[Richard Westman]: Yeah. Okay. When you come back Mhmm. Because we we need the details of how the calculation is done for each now And you've been through that in ages. K. And it would be nice to know what's covered, what's not, and and what the mileage is and the details within the number. K. And within that number, you should be able to tell us how many in each category miles of road there are statewide. Yep. So the details within that are that's the largest single program of any that we're gonna see in the budget.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yep.

[Richard Westman]: But as we look at that formula, it would be nice to understand the formula.

[Joel Perrigo]: Yep. So quite a few years ago now, senate made an amendment to the t bill to to add some money to that program, and we built a a spreadsheet, if you will, that basically said, if we wanna add $3,000,000 and they could see the results from it, I could probably

[Richard Westman]: Well, yeah. And and it would be nice to understand if we added money in that area and and and what it would do based upon which miles are covered and which are not. Yep.

[Andrew Perchlik]: Look at that. That's all I had. We had. You were You're your

[Joel Perrigo]: Yeah. I Good run upstairs.

[Richard Westman]: Coming back. So I think it's probably time for the old person to have a little break.