Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And they're live.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Think I'm finding good stuff. Alright. We are February 26. We are two days in front of town meeting brave, and we are first talking about s two sixty three, and the sponsor is a member of this committee. And we asked him to sit in the witness chair, and he said he liked it where he was. So I think we're Much more gonna go from there.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Thank you, chair. This is s two sixty three, an act relating to the use of automatic traffic law enforcement, ATLE, by municipalities. ATLE, I think it's important for folks to know the difference between ATLE and license plate readers, because people often think of them as the same thing, but they aren't different. There are license plate readers that law enforcement had at one point in Vermont attached to their patrol cars that would automatically just read the license plate and then find the information, and they would be right there on their screen. It's just collecting data as every car drives by, Our guys, the truck driver drives by. You can have stationary license plates on patrol cars. Have enforcement, I think the Essex Sheriff is the only law enforcement in Vermont that still has license plate readers, not at least last time that we looked at it. I don't know if they're still using it. But we had a lot of rules and a lot of discussion about public safety around license plate readers and where's the data being stored and obviously, so after that, we had a lot of testimony in here about accidents at work zones. We had a desk one year, we had this room full of flaggers, and this mother of the guy that had died, hit by a car. People saying they had to leap into ditches away from cars. So AOT had proposed to do automatic traffic law enforcement because we heard from others, it's kind of like the year, this year when we did different states on what they had done with them, we did that with automatic traffic law enforcement. There was really positive reporting, specifically for work zones or specific speeding areas. If you set it up and have the camera and the signs, that people slow down, and especially after they got tickets in the mail or even warnings in the mail. So we were going to do a system of three pilot, three work zones, we're gonna do it as a pilot. They were gonna use the traffic safety money that they had to do the pilot. Governor signed the bill, there was some support for it, but when it passed, there was a misunderstanding about what law enforcement would write the tickets because you still have to have a sworn officer view the video to write the ticket. The difference between ATLE, in fact, the difference between ATLE and license plate readers is ATLE doesn't take a picture of every car that goes by. They've spaced if it's for speeding, they will tell if the car is speeding and then take a picture, and it'll only be a picture of the license plate. It won't be a picture of the car, so you don't know who's driving it, then a law enforcement officer has to say, yep, the license plate is the number that the computer said it was, I'm hitting the buttons, and that person gets either a warning in the mail, and then when we set it up for the pilot, it was gonna be warnings for a while. Never needed tickets. True. After we passed the bill, there was a disagreement about what law enforcement would do. The troopers, although they had testified in support of the bill, didn't ever say they were willing to put an officer on charge of looking at these videos or images, although we didn't think it would be that much time, that they didn't want to commit to it. Then DMV said their officers didn't have the time to do it. Though we passed the law saying that they would do it, they just didn't get it. Because they said they could find the law enforcement to do it. After that, the city of Burlington expressed an interest, they had issues with not only speeding, but red lighting. To the point where it was very concerning about how many people were running red lights. So they wanted the permission to do this. So this is kind of where that bill came out of. If the state's not going to test it out, if a municipality wants to do it, gets a vote by their citizens, so it wouldn't just be the select board or city council. They would take it to a vote of their own citizens. The citizens are willing to have cameras for, this allows for work zones, areas that have increased instances of crashes or speeding, traffic signals, And then it also allows, if they have a municipal sound ordinance, they can use a sound camera. But this just basically allows municipalities to go ahead and do it and report back.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: This, the reporting in here And the ticket goes with this. Yeah. And they could do

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: it as they could do warnings or tickets. So it would be a municipal speeding ticket. It would be the same ticket as if you got pulled over, but it would be sent in mail. We worked with ACLU who was supportive of the bill when we passed before for the work zones, because the way the data is being collected, the way the photo is only being taken, and it was being deleted after the ticket was being issued. A lot of the language in the bill is from that year that we had the pilot and work zone. There's a lot of existing language that we'd already worked about how this is going to work and how we can do it to preserve Vermonters' privacy. The thing that's still in here that I heard from AOT is there's a report from AOT about what areas they've done ATLE and kind of the reactions, but since this is just being done by municipalities, they were like, well we don't want to do this report if it's not AOT cameras. So they said they would be neutral on the law, we took out that part about them doing the report, but otherwise they're okay with that. And they even said that they would be okay with going back to the highway work zones if we could figure out the law enforcement piece.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: They're not

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: opposed to that at this point. So that's the thumbnail sketch of it. Happy to answer questions. The Chief of Police of Burlington was supposed to be here to talk in favor and why they feel this is important. Unfortunately, he's ill today, so if we want to have him back or in law enforcement, we could do that. I know we're approaching crossover. It wouldn't need any other committees, although I could see because it allows a town to do this without getting their charter approved, it just allows them to do it. Bank of ops might wanna look at it, but I'm not sure about that. So so the the basic thing is it allows municipalities to use automatic traffic law enforcement in their own towns, on their own roads, by approval of their own citizens, and we're just kinda keep let's let's have the state get out of the way. You don't think judiciary would want to see it? They might. They saw the original bill, but it's a good point. They might want to look at it again. It's a different judiciary committee than it was when we passed it before.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I absolutely hate to bring this up because there are a number of communities that want their speed limits adjusted in their communities, and they're facing that. And it brings up the whole other issue. Do you think the pressure is on for those type things, this type thing, because we were seeing enforcement of traffic violations drop so dramatically. Oh, a 100%.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Yeah. That's

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: yeah. I think so. And I think a lot of times the towns that wanna lower their speed limit, they think that'll help the speeders. They're like, well, what can we do about these speeders? This would give them another so they wouldn't need to lower the speed limit. I think they'd be fine if people were just following the speed limit. If it's 30 and people are going 40, they're like, well, let's lower it to 20 so that they go 30.

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: That's my feeling.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So I think some of that pressure, I don't think it would

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: How expensive is this equipment? I

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: don't remember. You basically hire a firm.

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: You have a contract And in the are they accurate?

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah, they're accurate, they're kind of like the radar guns, they can be calibrated. There's language that we had from before about calibration of it's the, basically a radar gun that's connected to the camera that's measuring the speed. It's it's almost identical as a officer pointing a radar gun at your vehicle. That's instead of the officer reading the number and writing a ticket, it takes a picture and then sends that to law enforcement. And so in this this instance, so we just beat to the Burlington Police and the Burlington Police Department officer and look at the look at the images. Again, they're only taking an image if the car is speedy, so it's not like they have to look at a thousand images. They just have to look at the ones that were tagged as speedy, and you can set the parameters. When we did it with AOT, the work zones, it was going be only for cars that were going 10 miles an hour or more. And you could set a thought or a 15 to take a picture only for the super students or something. And you could also set it to send a warning.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Would this be only on state highways? Would you read the list. I

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: assume that this would only be on

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm not each municipal roads. This is not I'm not

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: this It ex it has he has you have it broken out between those work zones have different rules than the other ones, if I understand your bill correctly.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: There's there there's the it's it's it says it still has AOT language in here, this allows the agency to do it if they can figure out the law enforcement. They have told them they're not going to do it, but it's selected by the agency for a highway under the jurisdiction of AOT or a highway under the jurisdiction No, of Miss

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: not having

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And they have to have I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: think this is not meant to be argumentative for anything, because I can totally see in certain instances this might be good. We have a number of talents in the state that, back through the years, have hired some law enforcement people that wanted to make money for their towns and they put people in the most inopportune places. I would hate to see a community set on some hill where you know that and and Yeah. Get that. But you wanna be careful about how we did this.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yes. I I I understand the concern. I mean, right now, they have to have an officer there. This would make it easier for them because they could they still have to pay for it, but they could have a camera

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: and just be This would have to

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: But it would have to be on a town highway. It has to be on a highway controlled by the municipality. So they couldn't do it on state highway. It must be a state approval.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That doesn't the communities that have been pressuring me, if then they have a main street that's rigged on a state highway.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. They could do it on if the state highway goes through town. It has to be on the town that the municipality is the controls versus whatever the legal attorneys. So they would have to get approval from AOT if they wanted to do it statewide. So it's on Ohio even the jurisdiction of a municipal law enforcement agency. Okay. So they would have to suck it. And then have to go to town voters. So if it's on a town road, which you would think would be mostly town people, they would have to vote for it. So you have to get a positive vote by these people. They're kind of voting like, we will do this. There might be instances where there's a town road that's a main thorough fare and somebody could abuse it to put it one mile over the speed limit and just send everybody a ticket to try to make money off of it. I think we could either address that through an amendment to the law or I don't think that, you know

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, I think report back. This is gonna take some

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: test. Yeah, so I was hoping that we could take it up, because I think it is a safety issue and the committee expressed safety as a top priority if we have time, and since it already, a chunk of this has already passed, if there's an opportunity to put it in D bill, which I think it was originally, or maybe it was in the D and B bill, I can't remember, but I don't think it was a separate bill when we passed it. Okay,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: go ahead.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you. I'm supportive of this effort for sure. I mean we know that speeding is causing lots of problems, so I'd like to take it up and I'd like to get into more of the details about just making sure that it can be effective because just in my area it's the state roads in and out of town. I mean, you're always in a town, right? There's not a place where you're not. But in downtowns as well as the outer areas.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm gonna go to a town meeting and they're gonna, their select board is voted and they're at odds with AOT because it's Route 15.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right, right. And then just for pedestrians also, pedestrians and bicyclists, we've had a lot of those, and our rates are just, as a country, going higher. So I'd like to take it out.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I'm really excited I've about this been following this topic. I like the story arc you gave because it reminded me we have been talking about some slice of this exact issue for the whole time I've been in office at the state level. And we have tried so many different attempts to either give the tool like this to communities that are in need or have the state be able to operationalize it for their own projects, and it just hasn't happened. And so I really think this is a elegant way to resolve a need that I've been hearing for the last eight years. So I'm really grateful that you introduced this bill. I think if we are to take it up, I think we should hear from ACLU and to Senator Brennan's point, maybe that's what judiciary wants to hear about. I think the conversation has shifted since we had that conversation a few years ago, where we are now on camera being recorded. All of the culture around that has shifted pretty significantly. And when you go through a toll booth now, you're not paying someone. They're taking the same level of information that this would be. And so I think that there's a different conversation that could be had. So I don't see it as much of an issue, but I appreciate that you took some due diligence to look at how is the data stored, because my big concern would be that the federal government would use that data against people who, they deem to be risky. Right. Whatever that flavor of the week is now with Donald Trump. So that's one piece I'd like to spend time on, and I'd love to get the ACLU's perspective on it, whether it's here or judiciary. And then I wanna know more about the sound camera piece because we passed our noise pollution prevention bill. It's stuck on the wall from outside, but I know multiple communities that are wanting to enforce already existing ordinances and have a You got one more. Then it's three.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: I can go for it, ma'am.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I'm not gonna. But the sound cameras were the main tool that the different advocacy groups had noted to us, and what we heard from the state was, oh, we don't wanna buy them. They're too expensive, essentially. That's why we can't do it. So if the town is really dealing with it and wants to enforce their own ordinances, by golly, this could be the way to do it.

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: So

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Very interesting. The sound camera technology is pretty interesting. We're good. We can talk about it. But, again, it just allows municipalities Yeah. To do it if they wanna do it. They don't want to do it. There's also is a a field in case people are worried about this kind of being a runaway train. It's it's in 2029, so they would have some time to do it. I don't know if that's the right date, but it would it would we have to the legislature then actively extend it to keep it

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: going. Oh.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Can I, but can I just say

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: one final point of I the

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: think this should be a priority bill for us along with super speakers? I think both of those answer like the safety conversation we've been having And I hope that we could consider either of these in the T bill rather than as separate bills. Because I do think there should be life beyond this week for this bill. And I'm wondering if we have the ability or if we know if the House has a vehicle other than that that's coming over

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Good point.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: At this point, I think we're gonna move on. Yes, Kayla, anything?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Let me check. Oh, right there. Know. I

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: brought friends.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No. There's there's another. There's over there. So in case

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Two.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So two of you wanna be

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It's 09:30. Dad, get timing.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, yeah.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Study out.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Never. It's a study out. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. It makes a difference, isn't it? Mhmm. Yeah. And twenty four.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Here, the question we I asked of the public transit agencies. We did the effort last year to put in money and create an effort around volunteer drivers or medical transports. And we we touched on that with health and welfare down the hall, but I think what we need to hear is specifically exactly where we are, where that effort is, what will it take to continue that effort on into next year. If we're facing a year where January 1, we're facing significant Medicaid cuts and there's a contraction of medical services around rural Vermont. We can't offer medical transports without people. So the effort we started, I think we're gonna wanna make sure in this committee that we find a place for the continuation of this effort and at least continue it at the level that we started, if not grow this. And so I asked Caleb to come and talk to us about where we exactly are, what problem, what do they need, what can they accomplish going forward and put in front of the, the committee. What are the opportunities for us to do that? I will frankly tell you from my point of view, it's scary the thought of losing services. My local hospital, voted this fall to end births, And if I have Yeah. Births at the heart it But births at it it's an interesting thing because all of the services up to the birth could still be done in the community, the coordination of all of these services is vital to people being able to get to a point.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. So if you could help us understand where we are and what we did and how to move how would we move forward with this, and what are the options?

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Thank you, chairman. For the record, Caleb Grant from, Rural Community Transportation, chair of the Vermont Public Transportation Association. Thank you for the opportunity to follow-up on the investment that you wisely made in volunteer recruitment across the state. Let me first begin by, framing the value of volunteer driver program. RCT has proudly been one of the state's leaders in volunteer recruitment and providing services. So on any given day, RCT will give anywhere from 900 to 1,200 trips. Typically, six to 700 of those trips a day will be done by volunteer drivers. So building out capacity while maintaining, a workforce that is resilient through fluctuations in demand, volunteers can be critical. The other value of volunteer drivers, often you'll find they are the least cost option. My kind of pushback on that is, you know, volunteer programs also come with a great deal of administrative burden. I'm joined today by our volunteer coordinator who I'm hoping you'll be open to hearing from later to talk about kind of the ground experience of that. But one of the greatest values of volunteer drivers outside of the cost savings of that lowest cost option. As a reminder, volunteers are reimbursed miles. We do not pay volunteers. They're reimbursed for their mileage on at the federal rate, which is constantly increasing. So if you ever see her throw her hands throwing up and say we can't control costs, oftentimes, it can be federally determined rates. But, you know, with the consolidation of health care services across the state, volunteers have become a critical aspect of that. At any given moment, we'll have two or three drivers at Dartmouth, at Boston, at UVM, or in Albany. And if you send an RCT professional driver, you're taking both that driver and the vehicle out of circulation for the duration of the day. So when one driver may do 40 different trips in a day, if they're taking one trip to Boston, that can be detrimental. But if you can satisfy that with a volunteer driver, that cost can be controlled, you can maintain the vehicle and the driver, within the system. So that's kind of a general overview of the value of the volunteer programs. Where we saw the impact of the $600,000 investment was, it differed from agency to agency, and Ross McDonald's here from B TRAN to help give a better overview of where the specific funds went into. But we, as agencies, did have a make a strategic decision for what could have been one time funds. You make a hire that you don't know how to pay in the future. RCT specifically submitted two applications to the $600,000. One of those investments was making our recruitment and supervisory efforts more cost efficient. And we invested in administrative vehicles for volunteer coordinators. Volunteer coordinators had historically done everything from going to recruiting events to doing vehicle inspections to, you know, going out into the field to field complaints or do ride alongs with people all in their personal vehicles at a federal reimbursement rate. So being able to put them in an administrative vehicle without reimbursement A lot of the cost curve in all efforts, whether it's administration or recruitment significantly down. The other effort, I'll leave to Bobby to cover more thoroughly, was trying to create a more universal and accessible training platform for volunteer drivers. That is a big burden is one, how do you make sure that this is done comprehensively as well as consistently across all of our volunteers? So we, working with Saint Jay Academy students in the film, are actually creating with all the other volunteer coordinators across the state of training video for those initial trains. Where I think it's important to kind of discuss the future of this investment is how do we sustain that capacity. It's not one of those things where you can go out and make one time gestures, obviously, with the investment and becoming more efficient in those efforts, with some of those, funds. That is an investment that sustains over the lifetime of the vehicles. But being able to continue those investments and those efforts are gonna require sustained investment within that program. So any future investment would I would imagine, and, again, this is the determination of B TRANS going through a similar competitive program where individual agencies could put forward competitive ideas or bids that show and and can be measured in how we can increase that volunteer recruitment effort. At the end of the day, investing in volunteer recruitment is investing in the capacity of our agencies to continue to provide rides. Chairman Westman, you know, framed it perfectly when he said there's a number of different aspects that are gonna be happening in the next year, whether it's health care consolidation, whether it is, federal changes in Medicaid eligibility, whether it's refinement of the O and D program under their financial constraints, the best investment you can make is within the capacity of the agencies within your state to be able to provide those services both efficiently and effectively with fluctuating patterns. So an additional investment would allow those competitive ideas to continue to be funded as we increase that capacity. The other thing to consider is once you've increased capacity, what's the next additional step? So how can you kind of take that additional step beyond the investment in volunteer recruitment and increasing that capacity, and that's making the capacity you do have more efficient. So, you know, I I really wanna recognize the impact and the efficacy of the $600,000 investment. I would certainly advocate that you continue that investment in a competitive bid process so that the best ideas continue to rise to the top in a measurable way. But I would kind of encourage you to consider the next layer of that, which would be mobility management. And that feels like a really kind of one of those terms that only the transportation providers would say in front of you. But what it really means is putting an intense focus on best utilizing your capacity to most efficiently and effectively give trips. So having that individual who can develop the relationships with providers to think about scheduling the work of Section 28, continuing that effort, but really looking from a 30,000 foot view of how do we take the 13,000 trips requested for the day at RCT, form those partnerships with health care providers, with care providers, and I'm drawing that distinction between the health care industry and the individuals within the homes of those needing services and connecting all those dots to put those vehicles, those volunteer drivers, the most efficient use of coordinating across the state.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Go ahead. Thank you, mister chair. So on that point, we had the public meeting or joint meeting where we talked about the outcomes of the work that you had done, not just you, it was a committee or a task force. I don't remember the exact titling. But what I took away from that was we should focus specifically problem, which is how are the hospitals, how are the healthcare providers actually scheduling their appointments to support you not having as a transportation provider bouncing back and forth at random times when you could be having multiply stacked appointments. And the report seemed to show that there were ways to move us to that, like especially around dialysis. Although you had pointed out that heartbreaking story of the person who, if not more than once, at least once had a cardiac event because of the difficulty of that gravel. So that is where I would like to invest our money and time if we can because that was the most compelling piece coming out of it. So is that what you're describing when you're saying mobility management, or is that a totally different concept?

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: It's an

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: aspect of it. And and I think it's really important to recognize that, section 28 great gave a great opportunity for us to have a broader conversation as to efforts that were already happening.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: You

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: can't go a day without having those conversations with hospitals about, you know, we're gonna have a vehicle here, but really holding everybody accountable to that shared dialogue. So I think health care is a critical piece to mobility management. I can proudly say that in our month and a half of providing services in Franklin County, we've gone from three of 25 dialysis clients going to their services in a shared ride to about 16 or 17.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, wow.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Which is, I I I think, provides a better experiences for those who are going through difficult times, you know, have a a shared experience and and be able to kind of create that journey together, but it also creates greater efficiencies. But under the braided system, it's not just health care. I mean, obviously, those are accountable partners who are here and who you can call us, testify to money. But it's also things like grocery trips. It's it's working with adult days. It's figuring out, you know, how can we work with human services, health care, our our nutritional access programs, all of those types of opportunities within the brain and system, bringing value beyond just the health care providers. But I think the health care does have a critical place given the direction our healthcare providers are going with places like birthing centers closing, with consolidation of services, with privatization of critical care services, all of those are going to prompt a critical and urgent conversation as it relates to healthcare.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Kind of related to what United Westman was saying

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: at the beginning of the consolidation. Thank you. This is great. Thank you so much and I'm so glad that the two committees got together and asked you to do this and I'm really happy that it's working and thanks for your leadership. A couple of questions. So, when you talk about mobility management, I start thinking about access to education, access to workforce. That's probably in the future or maybe in the future, but the more we can get folks as part of the system and there might be other revenues in those other areas. So you don't need to talk about that if you don't.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: No. I I think mobility management really boils down to the interconnectivity of the services you provide.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: So if it means, you know, childcare, if it means education, if it means mental health access, you know, one thing we never talk about is access to the court systems. You know, how do you make appointments and the court dates? All those types of things. And you see it in a this is gonna sound redundant, as a microcosm in some of the microtransit service is you have this low barrier service. And I when I say low barrier, I mean, the trip and the individual do not need to qualify. They just have access. And you see the fluidity of the services. It's meeting a friend for lunch, but it's third place, you know, preventative health care. It's just

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Taking me from the top of the hill to the bottom of the hill.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: There you go. It it is it is that diversified demand, that really gets included in that. And I think a a critical aspect of the mobility management is not just working with providers or capacity or riders, but dealing with those situations which make our algorithm algorithm our efficiency algorithm more difficult. Right? You have mental health, so the human health and social services. You know, an individual may not be able to ride together because of their mental health challenges, behavioral interventions, all those types of things where a mobility manager can help work through those cases to make our kind of larger, automated systems much more efficient by working through those individual surfaces. And then just

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: one other question. So you're probably doing this, but if you could just keep alert to places where you're sending a lot of people back and forth between two, like between two hospitals, for example, where where a fixed route or a semi fixed route might make sense and be less expensive.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Yeah. I think there there's opportunities for you know, I I think the challenge of the funding system is that those fixed routes are kind of this enormous barrier. And I I I think it leads to you know, you wanna hold on to those once you've accomplished the you know, creating the the case for a a fixed route because the possibility of a new one in the future, but being able to be responsive. And I I think what is often think of as a fixed route is often determined in ride sharing. Right? Like, Franklin County, we may take 20 different individuals to substance use disorder medical assistant treatments. And is that a fixed route, or is that efficiently

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Right? And and so I think there it is happening to a certain extent, maybe just under a different taxonomy.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. And and I think it's probably better if it has a different name. Yeah. And because then it could have multiple sources of revenue. Yeah.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Yeah. It it's more specialized and determined by the individuals as opposed to having an empty bus rolling and Exactly. Individuals over there.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Mhmm. Thank you.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And this is a title of Medicaid transport, everything you said would be for O and D and that they're not in emergency medical transport and volunteer drivers participate in all of that.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: That is the beauty of the braided system. I will say that one of the challenges of volunteer, both recruitment and management, is satisfying the compliance and the regulatory demands that are related to Medicaid specifically. Right? That is the the the highest threshold, and Bobby can speak more specifically about kind of the administrative challenges both in documentation and mileage tracking reimbursement and just eligibility. Oftentimes, when we go to agencies with large volunteer pools, by the time they hit the end of the Sinky charter or Blinko board of eligibility of all regulations, you may have one or two people who actually can And that's background checks

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: and all that kind of stuff. Right. But enroll Yeah. You do that though anyway for the program, like background checks and

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Yeah. We we maintain that, but there's also vehicle inspections. There's insurance requirements upon the individuals who volunteer.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: That you impose just because it's a smart thing to do now because there's a federal law.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: It is required under the contract. Yeah. So a certain a certain level of

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: insurance coverage. But that's what you do just to protect yourself, not because of like, a non medical thing or if you're taking somebody to an adult day, you don't need to do the same kind of level of background check and requirements that you do for Medicaid.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: So typically we we because we are rated services and you never know with funding source service. Yeah. We default to that baseline. I think there are opportunities to think about volunteer reimbursement rates for o and d or or other programs where maybe you can have more highly incentivized. But right now, it's really defaulting to that baseline.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: When you when

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: you say inspections, is that in addition to what the vehicle is earning, you know, the state requirements for inspections? You have your own requirements on Correct.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: So we require documentation of state inspections, but we also so volunteer coordinator would actually inspect for things like cleanliness and, you know, making sure that there's not we we're people are entrusting us to get the backseat of a private vehicle, and we wanna make sure. And and doing spot checks and and follow ups to complaints are all a critical part of that. Because I I those who ride with us often don't have a choice. And so I think we have a higher kind of duty standard and duty of care that if an individual has no other choice but to get in the RST vehicle, whether it be a professional vehicle or a volunteer, that when they get in the back seat that anyone at this table

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: would feel comfortable doing that. True.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And I love what RCT does. The overall numbers when you give, here's our total rise. Here's the ones that are volunteers. It'd be nice to have what's that for the whole system. Okay. And and the statewide piece. Mhmm. And I don't know if if this is the time that we should move into Ross and and in that piece, it would be nice for us to be able to for me go to the floor if if we include stuff within the budget, within the t bill, however this gets included, if we could paint a picture of exactly how many we've got. I think that last hearing we had the number was thrown around. There were 17 people that we had been able to bring on board. So if you guys wanna sit together, if however you wanna do this, We just need and then my goal is in this that by the end of this morning, you've talked to us about what are the physical things that we need to put within a budget or within wherever the language engine up with the dollars to figure out what we should do, at what level could we do to move this up. We certainly wanna continue what we're doing, but what are the pieces beyond this? I think we've heard that building systems whereby hospitals, the public transit agencies collectively around the state all can talk together is would be an ultimate goal, but we need to be able to physically figure out how to do this Mhmm. And figure out and then we'll figure out what we can afford within those pieces.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Thanks for context guidance, mister chair. For the record, Ross McDonald, public transit program manager at B TRANS. And jumping off from what Caleb eloquently described as the volunteer program in 2025, 44% of all demand response trips, whether it was Medicaid, non emergency medical transportation, o and d, and as well as the newly established program, recovery job access program, we were at 44%. Pre COVID, we were in the low fifties, and those average trip costs were around $23.24 dollars pre COVID. We're at $54 now. And some of those costs, the rates of the GSA rate is also 30% higher, and our own rates and wages. It's been really helpful to juxtapose and to amplify the Section 24 volunteer investments with Section 28 coordination with the healthcare folks, and that is the nexus between capacity and mobility management. But for us, when we received the T bill language, we immediately went out to the providers and act for an overview of number of volunteer coordinators, number of volunteer drivers. We had 5.5 volunteer coordinators in July and 159 drivers. We used to have about 300 pre COVID. So that's what we were talking about last year.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And December this on if I you're reading off your sheet. Do you have this on a sheet for

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Absolutely. Afterwards, what talking with Caleb and Michelle. I can't remember the details. That's right. What what I'd like to do is, you know, hear from the committee and then follow-up with a package that's responsive to you. I mean, what to leave in, what to leave out, all those same questions. And with the guidance that Michelle gave us, which is deep dive on section 24, what are we seeing? Is it lessons learned? What's the return on investment? Those types of things. We'll go through that in narrative, and then the information will come to you in the next business day or two pending your approval. So when we went from 5.5 to eight providers, when we originally looked at the bill in section 24, it was for volunteer coordinators fired with grants provided pursuant to the section shall be responsible for building the volunteer program. Our providers responded in a disparate way. Some said, well, we already just hired a coordinator. What we really need is more outreach. What we'd like to do is use some of those funds to advertise and to do the front porch forum corridor outreach, those types of things. And so we did determine that we would inject those funds through the Mobility and Transportation Innovation Competitive Grant Program and open up the scope and scale to what those regions thought was going to improve their volunteer program best. And so as a result, we purchased some vehicles for RCT for those purposes that Caleb outlined. We invested in outreach. We invested in more coordinator positions. And based on that, in December, when we said, okay, we're getting ready for the legislative session, give us the update, there was 190 from one fifty nine, so twenty one seventeen increase. Those awards went out in October because of the timing of the MTI funds are generally on the federal fiscal year. And so we were using FHWA funds to help us manage those programs. And the timing works pretty well with everybody getting their ideas in in order. Those scopes that we were awarded were two year scopes, understanding that we didn't want one time funds to blow through and get out some momentum and then not be able to fund this. And so we did ask for two year scopes and are proceeding that way. When we talk internally about what what this means, It's difficult to assign a number on the savings that you get from a coordinator. If we receive 21 new coordinators, some are driving five days a week, and some are driving one day a week. Back in the napkin and calculations that we've been using is the average volunteer driver can save up to $10,000 a year if they're doing three or four days, if they're doing those Boston trips. That's saving a lot more money than than if somebody's moving around in town. So it's difficult. We will be able to see when we take a snapshot of '26. How we deal in '25, and that Luke LaPorte report has its flaws, but it also has the value of the same metrics being calculated for twenty, twenty five years that that is allowing us to look at the changes through these programs, and it's not enough. When we look at demands and cost and Colchester and other plays there.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well done.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: And well, okay. But all of our regions are trying to figure out what are those constraints, are they okay for now? If we get two or three new dialysis patients, that's going to really change their abilities to continue the current constraints. A few folks move or drop off those roles. Well, now maybe they can do some more social personal. And that's how we get to this point where there's so much latitude or agency to agency or region to region. Some have an incredible amount of adult day trips because they have adult day facilities. Some have none. And so we do try to work with folks to ensure a baseline of services. Is it at least four to six trips a month for medical and social? Is it unlimited critical care for dialysis and for cancer treatments? Are we ensuring that people have access to food and nutrition? And then we start talking about the social personal, was added seven, nine years ago when we knew when all the studies showed the determinant of health care outcomes are as positive through those types of trips as going to the doctors. But right now, we are considering that type of guidance and wondering if there's a if this is the appropriate time through the advisory council, public training advisory council, to ensure that our applications that we get for '26 include the budget for a baseline to ensure this body and the state and all of our residents of of those types of baseline trips that we can provide throughout the state, and then the nuance occurs. That's good, but these need more adult day trips than these folks. These people rely on a lot of social trips. How are we going to, you know, manage those? Is that going to continue to be a priority? We also added the recovering job access program. Those trips are for folks in recovery and or people who are trying to access a job opportunity. Nobody works that program better than RCT and connecting people to court so that they can get their license back. Bring them down to across the street so that they can get their license. Those are capped at 10 round trip per person, but there's a process for us in the Department of Health where we share the non federal match for those trips to allow for some more flexibility because everything that we're talking about is that nuance and those scenarios that you can't capture through an algorithm a simple program. Sometimes they just need three more trips, and then this carpool starts. And so we do have that latitude again. So without being too prescriptive from the agency, we're trying to maintain the flexibility while ensuring a baseline of services can be met. Now when we say, well, have we grown the volunteer program? Yes. Has that resulted in a decrease in cost? At this point, it doesn't appear so, but we only have a, you know, a few to several months in FY twenty six to look at. We'll we'll get a full assessment in a couple months. Another question is, you know, has this appreciably changed the denial rates of folks being told, hey. We don't have the capacity for this trip or that. Since August, the average has been about 206 total denials throughout the whole system for the OND program. Very few denials occur in the NEMT program because that's an entitlement, and they get first light at the capacity, and that's appropriate. So we go from 206 average in January, it was down to one sixty one. It's bending the curve a little bit, but not in a way that we could confidently say this is making a huge dent in those challenges. But it's something.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I mean, just a few I get that we've handed out a bunch of grants. We've stabilized some of the services for people and I said, come on. There's gotta be a way for you to able to say to us in some sort of a bullet form, here's a picture of the overall grants in in something short, sweet. When you tell me you gotta it will be two months before I we'll be out of here. Yes. Mhmm. Between now and then, we're going to have to pass budgets. We're going to have to be able to defend the movement forward with this. I don't think anybody expect expects wholesale savings of money in this program. Yeah. Here's what here here's what I'm going to tell you. I think we expect with Medicaid cuts, with consolidation in health care, in the direction that everything's headed, that they will create savings in the services that are out there. But what that's going to do is put pressure back on things like the public transit agencies to be able to offer more rides. If you're offering more rides, it's not gonna be cheaper. And so they push over here, it's gonna bump out here, and we can't provide the rides without bodies. So if you can summarize in a in a less than a page, that one of us could read on the floor of the senate when we're defending something. Here's the areas we've done with grants. Here's the direction we're moving to try to get more drivers, but we're just getting started. I think people get it. They need to know we're working on this issue because this pressure's gonna come theoretically from the they try to create savings in the health care business, it's gonna push back on

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: us. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: and we need that picture well before the two months from this day. Understood. And I'm sorry that our timetable doesn't fit yours, but it is the way the budget process will work for you.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Understood. Thank you, mister chair. The the budget discussion that I'm charged with from the agency is to support the budget that has been presented. I am. You you yes. And so for us, when we look at the two year investment with Section 24, if we're building that capacity and that's concurrent and that goes on, this is when we're pivoting and asking our providers, along with Caleb and VPTA's leadership, is what does mobility management look like? Section 28 absolutely is part of that. What else can we do? What is that going to look like? We do expect to be able to use these funds to support an increased effort for mobility management. When I provide the summary, we're less than a page. We will outline what we plan to do with with these funds moving forward, and the Section 28 recommendation that we maintain the working group is in part so that we have ready made route to address these dynamics through the legislative process and reacting to changes at the federal levels. In addition to that, I've met with Brendan Atwood, the policy director at AHS, and reviewed the rural health care transformation projects and programs. And we are considering the interagency working group on transportation so that their programs, it could be DCF, it could be DOC, it could be Medicaid. Are we do we

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: have the right folks in place to identify these impacts and those related services? And I say to you, I think from this committees, we're gonna get Jill Mazza Olsen in here, and we're gonna talk about where you see this fitting. Mhmm. And and some of that, we certainly understand your constraints around your budget and where all of this. This is a moving target. The the whole position of what happens with the 190 odd million that they're getting over five years in that. Yeah. Certainly is a place that I think if you're consolidating healthcare services, you have to look at how people are getting here. So that will be a part of her question from us as to where you see this fitting. You can't eliminate services and not

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: and I'm sure they're aware of that and I'm sure they're working with you. We are starting those conversations about when we are at the table to ensure that the transportation impacts are addressed. We did do a very good job of that with the aging in place so many years ago, and lessons learned. And so we are trying to get out in front of that. I think we have the right people in place and that working committee with the health care and human service association members that will continue. So that's where we are with our current funding levels going forward. If we are able to save some money on some underperforming routes or underperforming aspects of performing routes and look at our O and D committee and ensure that we maximize the recovery job access program. I'm hoping to have some more funds for mobility management. That is absolutely going to have to be part of the process. We can have the pay the discussion at the table, but how does that go down to the actual management of those trips and of those funds that are supporting those transitions. So I will add that in the summary and where we are with status.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So just Ross, per usual, you're extremely insightful and you know a lot about your programs. So I don't have all the information that you have and you are going to provide to us kind of the breakdowns. I'm probably not going to come up with any unique conclusion to what you have already seen as you've been looking at these programs. And you might not be able to answer this, so you you can punt. But it seems like the governor's recommend budget does not actually meet the needs that you're describing.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And We're close.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: We are close, senator. The idea that a $36,000,000 budget is at in 2020 is now 53,000,000. Our the budget committee at V Trans has heard that we are a program of services, not projects, and that we need to sustain our successful services. And we know that in '28 with G and T Urban's concerns, that those are our concerns. And so what can we do to to address those gaps as well as our fifty three eleven rural services? So we continue to push on those underperforming routes and the mobility management to try to be more effective with the dollars we had.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Can I just ask so you had said earlier that the ride cost had gone up 24 to what? $54?

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: That's correct.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So that budget change doesn't actually feel that significant when you think about the costs that have gone up. So I respect your and I love that you you're good. You're got such good optimism and diplomacy. I always appreciate it. So I realize I can't pick at the question too much deeper, but I do worry that we as you described with the federal picture, we're gonna need something. We're gonna have to plan around this topic because I think there will be less money. And with the way that AOT's budget looks for projects and the $33,000,000 shortfall, I worry that we don't have a consistent projected revenue source for public transportation. Mhmm. And it sounds like from what you've described to the committee, we're gonna be getting some kind of report back coming out of this conversation. And I know AOT has not taken a position on a revenue source in the past, but that's a conversation I think we need to have. So and and I don't know when we have that conversation or where we have it or if it's happening in house transportation, but I think predictability is extremely important for your ecosystem of services. And I'm concerned that as we continue to see AOT's budget decline, although you've described you're getting close with the governor budget, I worry that we're gonna see cuts and that's going to be an early place that we see cuts and I want to avoid that. So I don't know how we have that conversation or where we have that conversation. Maybe it's this committee this year, but I want to feel ready for that conversation. I guess is why.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Legislative report says to date, I think we're up to more than the dose

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: of twenty twenty years. Yes.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: And the good news is the current funding formula has allowed us to grow the program from $18,000,000 in twenty years ago, oh my god, here to the 53 with that current funding formula. It's inelegant. It is disparate around the state because some rely on all the towns. Some rely on the businesses, the resorts. Donations do well in some areas. But for whatever flaws that current approach has worked to dictate. Sure. But we understand that all of those funding analyses show it won't take long before the you know, we're at we're we're busting its seams a bit. And And

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: we're seeing that. Different providers already.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: And we certainly are are seeing that and appreciate the consideration. I'm certainly deferring to the Vermont Public Transit Transportation Association, Steve Fogle, who's who's done many of those reports. They have a a recommendation ready for you to consider or a series of recommendations, but it's not part of the B TRAN recommendations. That

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: is I would just ask that in relation to this conversation, I do wanna hear those pieces. I was really appreciative of the long conversation we had earlier, like the long form of time that took for the workplace cameras and just seeing how it happened over so many years. I think we need to take another bite at this apple this year even if we don't come to a conclusion. But I would like us to spend some time. And I I don't know if you've been in house transportation a bunch on this, and they're chewing on it. But

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Not on the funding element. We've been there seven or eight times on, you know, on a disparate items, including the budget presentation, updates on the MTI program, those those types of piece parts.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I would like an update on the MTI program as well. But if you're coming with a budget for that, then it doesn't need to be a separate.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So with this, I hear you need to keep the committee going. The grant program, the grants that you handed out, I'd like to see a breakdown of the budget for the grants, how much was asked for last year, and and the background information about the what you're doing, in outreach, and what you've put what's put in the budget, what people would ask for in outreach, then all of the stuff that deals with coordinated effort is there, functionally things that are in this budget. What are the functional things we can get the the agencies and the hospitals all to do to work together, what would that all look like? That doesn't mean that we would look to your budget to figure this out. We're just trying to create a picture of ideally what would be the functional pieces. I I I get in my head that you're talking about grants and consolidation stuff and new, vehicles and, you know, and all of that. I get that there's an outreach piece to this. I get that we've gotta have a group talking about where to go in the future. The big piece out there is how we spend our dollars right to get you to coordinate all together. I'm trying to create a picture of all of that. At that point, when we know what is in, what's not, but what we would look at ideally, it creates a picture for this committee where we can have a conversation and say, can we go? At that point, I really am gonna ask Jill Olson to come in and talk about in the transformation, does this all fit with with your thinking or in her thinking? Because this is not all just transportation dollars related. This really is about the transformation of a system. And if we don't know what to advocate for, we can't. We we aren't at the table.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Can I just follow-up on that? So something that's really important is understanding the levels of service. Right? So those fluctuate sometimes. And if the state has a required minimum, would be helpful to know that. And then it would be helpful to know how far from that agencies can deviate. And I'd actually like to know also what people are asking for so that we would know the demand that's not being met. Always

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: the tricky part, we do a pretty good job of being able to identify the rides provided. Right. Rides not provided. The ones who know that this is ineligible and we don't hear from, those are those are the gaps that are a little tougher to to drill down on. When we look at, you know, the overall demand response program, our first priority is to do no harm and to maintain the braided services. And so that means that we invest in a universal cost allocation program that is part of DEMA's expectations. We didn't come up with that, but we thought that was a good idea and it would be helpful for both of our programs. And the computers, the vehicles, those are the responsibilities we take on and then amortize through the cost allocation programs because we are keen on maintaining that braided service. And then for the last several years, we've been looking at those layers of needs that haven't been addressed, recovery and job access. Can we use those recovery and job access programs for DOC, folks being released from crisis beds? Conversations that we're having just this week. And so the real question is, you know, are what are the agencies and human services need? What do we have? What's our capacity? And how do we maintain this brigade system? Is the first thing. The second thing is, okay, now that we've got building capacity, and we've been looking to build our volunteer program ever since COVID came and went, is are there these mobility management pickups that we can find some efficiencies? And since I've been around for twenty years, when I go to the hospitals way back when, or the big doctor's offices, they say, We don't consider that. We just can't. And now we are filling out questionnaires that do you have an issue with transportation? They're trying to develop accommodations. Right now there is probably, in addition to the critical care dialysis, medical treatment for substance use disorder, we are now getting far more interest and willingness to coordinate, to help us advocate for more volunteers, putting our posters and RAC cards for community drivers into the hospitals, working with their volunteers to see if they would like to drive one or two days a week in addition to what they do with the hospitals, and then it's that coordination piece. And then we're wondering if there's a provider or two that could provide a license or access for the scheduler to take a look and see what's available and actually have some information available so that they could help us proactively coordinate better trips and put more folks in. They were very clear in section 28, the health and human service folks, is don't forget, this isn't logistics. These are people, their level of discomfort and abilities to hang in there for an extra hour or two while somebody else is waiting after their treatment is not something that we can consider in a vacuum. And so those are the types of fruitful discussions that we're having. To expand on that, we just expanded more dollars for our consultant associated with the Section 28 report, Steve Tollible, to work with the providers and outline a work plan for the next twelve to sixteen months on who are they going to contact, what are the goals, and to put that together for next steps that we can coalesce around at our quarterly meetings with this permanent working group that we're looking to put in place.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I just wanted to just be super clear. That's wonderful. I'm glad you're doing that, but the chair's list of basic information I think should include the level of service and who's determining that level of service. Yeah. So, but do you know what I mean?

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Absolutely, and you'll be at the Public Transit Advisory Council as a member, and that's what we'll be discussing. What we did when we started seeing everyone's request for their mid year adjustments for the O and D program was a little sticker shock, and one of the first things we did was work around and ensure what are you providing types of trips. Well, we only had a few that were providing a big percentage in social or vocational or something. What I found was a lot of similarities, where it's unlimited adult day, unlimited critical care, six to eight trips for medical and or shopping, food access, and then a smattering of social, very little vocational, and then there's the other pieces that that we're we're losing, whether it's because there's a special scenario or the the data forgot to capture, you know, purpose. And so we're we're really close to those. What I'd like to talk with committee council about is to ensure that we all agree as a council the baseline, and then we get the applications that this is our baseline to ensure the basics. And then this is what we need to continue our current program. And in that delta, I'm hoping to get further to continue the current services, but we will at least be able to see to what it would take to insure. $3,000,000 budget a few years ago was 4 and a half million dollars in '26. We provided over $6,000,000. We're upside down. No question. And and so we need to adjust our budget accordingly.

[Unidentified committee member (time-bound override)]: Pat?

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: In those when you do that, where do you see vocational services

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: play out? How do you how do

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: you see growth play out? Yeah.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: I I think those are moved to the new vocational demand response program that was founded a few years ago, the recovery and job access component. Those are the 10 round trips offered for job access, and those scenarios are varied. We also need to do a better job of mobility management with those clinics. And so, as you can imagine, are we looking at carpools? Are we talking to the businesses about establishing vanpools? Can they work with their employees and say, hey, we have all of these opportunities. We will give gas cards out, we will give preferential parking. Those types of demand management programs have been in place for a lot of years. We've done employer assessments, and we work with folks. What we are doing in addition is meeting with high mobility and ensuring that people with disabilities have the full measure of our respective programs, whether they are transportation or AHS related, so that they know their options, whether they can qualify for a special equipped vehicle, whether they can carpool. And we work with those communities, say, hey, we need carpools coming out of our area. We're only going in four or five major directions. Let's all try to share our our empty seats. So it's gonna be, you know, kind of a a smattering of those types of approaches, understanding that we're not gonna be able to get everybody to their jobs every day.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So when you say 10 round trips per month? 10

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: round trips per year unless other arrangements or justification can be accommodated. Correct. 10 per year? It's really job access, not commuter program. Job access is to get your car fixed. Job access is to go to the interview to find a carpool, to look and ask your employer, like, hey. This is difficult for us to get here. Can you share, you know, who is coming here? Talk to your employees. Put it on the bulletin board. It is not a commuter program. It is a job access opportunity. And so for somebody who is oh, let's say, hey. I need a ride a week for forty weeks. That's 40 round trips. And if we are looking at that individual and have the budget and we have the capacity, we can work and provide that level of assistance. But if we just said, hey, everyone gets these trips, we will be out of money for the critical care and the other competing trip purposes.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: I yeah. I get that. What

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: about the you're talking the o and d program.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: The o and d program is one of the three programs of the braided systems that we did involve ourselves in. The NEMT Medicaid, the O and D program, and Recovery and Job Access Program. And the Recovery and Job Access Program came from the Opioid Coordination Council work around the turn of 2020, and we sat committee on with Department of Labor, substance use disorder folks, and came up with this clarion need for more trips with access to recovery services or job access to keep people in recovery or away from addictive type of pressures. And so, so far we manage that jointly with Department of Health. And they are aware of the plans of potentially removing vocational from O and D and moving it to the job access component, which is, again, a graded service. The only difference is what are we billing it for and who's who's paying.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And how many rides are provided?

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: It's a $400,000 annual program, and we haven't spent those dollars to date. It really has revealed that the need for recovery services isn't as great as anticipated because Medicaid covers so many of those types of trips. And that there's other options to get to and from those group counseling sessions and the like. It really has been a job access piece to try to bridge the gap to get folks gainfully employed. And as I mentioned, that could be coming getting them down here to get their driver's license, going to a class so that they can qualify to get their driver's license. There have been folks who have taken far more than 10 per year because of those individual scenarios where you just need it for another month, and they will have, you know, a new job, and they have a ride to that one. And so that's that's where we are. So we're

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: your objective is to move that program, the ORD program, or the vocational portion of that. So what do I tell my seven or eight people who are handicapped, some are blind, can't drive? Mhmm. What do I what are they looking forward to?

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Yeah. We have offered to work with town and meet with these individuals and to determine what we can do through the Go Vermont program. Can there be a carpool matching service? Can Colchester help us say, hey, we need carpools. If you're going in these locations during these times, please let us know and share the ride. And idea that and hireability has been offered to meet with them to talk about their types of services and the employers that they work with to it's not so much these seven or eight, but if that was, you know, the next seven or eight, how are we gonna manage those expectations? And so we continue to work with town manager and his staff and providing information. And at this point, they've been most comfortable working directly with those individuals than to, you know, have them bring them into a video meeting or in their town offices with, you know, hireability and and all those folks. But we continue to work with through those scenarios.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Coaches should not be the only one.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I know. Can I follow-up have those problem Can

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I follow-up on that?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So, it's similar, it's similar conversation to what we had with the micro transit in Brattleboro that was terminated after a year and we might want to have the person who worked on that come in to testify because there were blind individuals, folks who just couldn't drive at all and they were working and they were working at specific locations. The employers did not want to pay for the service and it was being subsidized by basically VTrans and the provider and it was working really well It was only in effect for a year, barely even a year, and with systems like that you want to give it a little bit more time because we were getting more ridership, but it was multiple reasons for it stopping. But that was headed the right way and that's a model that could be used in other towns.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Even though this is the most well funded rural transit program in the country, there are tremendous gaps. We're not getting everybody where they wanna get to, including folks who are in areas not served by transit who would like to get to a job. That is absolutely a a big gap, evenings and weekends. Those continue to to to be gaps in our services. And so that's why we try to fill in those gaps with carpools and vanpools and other and communications with towns and those types of things because if we were to say anybody can use our O and D program to get to and from their jobs, we would be we'd be millions and millions of short of dollars shorter. We do have somebody within

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I I would just say we really wanna understand where we're going and and the pieces around this and compare it up to your budget is to discuss the need. I would just say to you, I and no one is saying that public transit isn't done well, and and I hear you, we're the best funded we're the most rural state in the country by census data. And when you're spread out, it becomes, an issue, particularly when systems outside of our control, in the world, and particularly health care systems, are dramatically changing. We can't sit here and be flat footed. It would be my hope that by the time, the week we come back, we can have a better picture how we would fit together the working group that keep keeping them going, funding the grants, funding the outreach that we need to do, and and how we facilitate and work the coordination and push that effort along. And at that point, I'd like to be able to talk about what all the pieces are to that and get the healthcare transformation people in here to to discuss. We might do that with the health and welfare committee or we might do it by ourselves, but we have limited time. And the week we get back from after town meeting, in that week, which ends on, you know, Friday the thirteenth is the end of that week, we'll wanna have those discussions because we'll wanna have it in our head what needs to be done. Maybe not how the money all works because the money in all of this now is, you know, with the transformation money that came is coming out of Washington. The question is, does any of this fit K? And this is no attempt to criticize your budget or anything. Is trying to, in a changing world, what does the need look like?

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I can attest that your concerns are the concerns that we're discussing internally and with our sister agencies. And we wanna be supportive. And you've been very supportive. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thanks. Would

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: you like to Thank you, Vanessa.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Good morning, chair Westman, senators. Great to see you.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: It's nice to be back. Yeah. For the record, my name is Bobby Farnes Rubio, and I'm the volunteer coordinator lead at Rural Community Transportation. And I'm happy to enlighten you on any aspect of the particular strand of braided system that I am in charge of now. I haven't heard it said today, but last year, RCT covered 3,000,000 miles. And 2,000,000, two thirds were covered by volunteer drivers. And I started my job there as the volunteer coordinator in July. And when I started, we had 47 active volunteers, including seven that we got from Franklin County on January. And since that time, if you include everyone who's in the pipeline for onboarding, we have 20 new volunteers since that time. So for a total of 67, and thankfully, that number is increasing at an accelerated rate because we have another volunteer coordinator, Gabby Levy, based out of the Morrisville office, and she's doing a lot of active recruiting in St. Albans for our Franklin County portfolio. And so when we added those two counties, Franklin and Grand Isle, we increased by 40% the number of people that RCT serves. And I'm I could give you lots of statistics, but I'm also ready to answer any of your questions about what it's like, you know, to manage a pool of volunteers. Yep. So you're at 67 now. Some of that increase is because you added territory. Well, there were seven at the Franklin County office. So but we had over 20 at the other two offices or at at in the other three offices, including Morrisville. So, yeah, we we're ramping up. We've lost a few of it. I you know, I have to dismiss a few drivers. We've lost some who leave for the season, and they or taking care of parents. So there's always a back and forth. It's never going forward, and we're always losing some. And yeah.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: But question was I

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: have a quick point. Sure.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Just as you review the statistics that are provided by the state, that is a net increase in volunteers. And I think that's

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is is from the net is from where?

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: So the the the numbers that you have been presented and will be presented in this fact sheet or the fact sheet that Rob and Larry put together are a net increase across the state of volunteers. Bobby can speak more specifically that your six six hundred thousand dollar investment in the volunteer program Yep. Has not only increased the capacity through net volunteers, but increased the quality through additional supervision, requires the loss of volunteers and results in a much less impressive net number, but a higher quality. And and I think the the gross increase in volunteers is much more so substantial than, you know, you've

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: because I'm kinda looking at if I did seven and eight and forty seven, I'm at 54, and then I and you're up to 67. It's all in the right direction. Yeah. And and we're moving in the right direction to do all of that. We just need to tell a story.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Right. Well, when I got into the job, I expected that recruitment would be my number one occupation, and I've done a lot of that. But the maintenance of the volunteer pool is a bigger part of the job than I had expected. I would say on a daily basis, about 25 to 30% of my time is spent managing issues relating to complaints from riders or complaints from drivers, making sure that, certain people aren't paired together again. I mean, we we offer the volunteers a pretty big promise, which is that they get to bespoke manifest. They get to choose the days that they work, and that's a lot of trouble for our dispatchers. So there's a lot of particularities. Every person has a list of things they can and cannot do, when they can or cannot drive. When I started the job, most of the information was kept in file cabinets or on this one major spreadsheet that was shared by many people. And I'm very happy that I was able to get all of the records digitized onto an HR platform that I can use my phone to see everybody's driving record, performance record. We created something called the driver performance.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Smile. The paperwork load has

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: been severely reduced, and everything is in an app that, you know, is very protected. Only a certain number of people have access to this information, but we can look up driver's licenses and insurance forms. And one thing I like is the performance record that we've created because it allows for positive and negative situations, so accountability for our drivers. And they can't say, oh, nobody ever talked to me about this because now we have it available on a list. So I'm happy to give you particular stories of things that I've dealt with. But that Bamboo HR platform that we're using, Marble Valley has also adopted it, and I helped their volunteer coordinator, Christy Bloomer, implement that working with that company because we had to have the database tailored to our needs because it's usually used for paid employees and have things like paid leave and all that built in. So yeah. That's Go ahead, Anthony.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: What would you thanks for coming in. It's helpful. What what would you say is one thing that we could do to get more on to members?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Oh, I'll spread the word. I even brought some of the rack cards that VTrans has provided me. If you don't have them, I have not

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: seen the posters.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: We've paid them.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: People aren't saying I would do it if I got paid or I have higher compensation per miles or if you didn't give me such a hard time with my dirty vaccine. It's really just not anymore people know about

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: the opportunity at all. Well, I've been very careful how we describe it in our, you know, job postings because that confusion happens about one out of 10 people still think of the job, and they're like, so what's this? I was like, yeah. I thought it was clear that it's a volunteer position with reimbursement. And then there are folks who are skeptical. They don't believe us when we tell them that this doesn't count as income and that doesn't go against their disability and other benefits. There's sometimes there's a little bit of incredulity, but I still find that

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: most people don't even know what we do.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: And they don't they see RCT's buses and they see the beautiful wrap in our logo, but they don't realize the strength of the volunteer program. Yeah.

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I just when I learned about the volunteer program a few years ago, was really surprised because it's not a usual program, I don't think, in other states. I actually had a concern that maybe we weren't doing enough for them, but then I learned that there are a lot of folks who don't want taxable income and the reimbursement is good they appreciate helping people and getting to know folks. So it's a great program. So I'm glad there's more administration and professional administration on it, know, so it's not random and I'm hoping that's going to go to all of the other agencies as well. But it's a really good program and it works for Vermont particularly.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Well, thank you, senator Harrison. I I would like to say that the two vehicles that we were able to purchase with the NTI grant that we received have this logo on the hood and the rear window and a QR code that leads to our recruitment page with an application. So I have tested it. You can even scan it from a moving car, and I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: would so no. Not as a driver. As a passenger. But

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: the the goal was that everywhere we drive, even when we're parked in front of a a a price drop or recruiting, the car itself is a recruitment tool. And so that's we were able to collaborate with VTrans and the Go Vermont program to get sort of co branding on the vehicles. And the other, MTI grant that we received that Caleb mentioned earlier is for the training video. I was able to convene almost all of the volunteer coordinators around the state because I want them to use it and not just to be RCT specific, but I want it also to be, funny enough to hopefully get some legs and maybe go viral if we keep out.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Do it.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: And and just let people know that the program exists. And, you know, that that's part of the goal of what we got with the MTI grants is to spread the word. It's great.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: When did we get her wife put it on me?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Exactly. I'm like, why can I share this video? Do you know when it's, like, gonna come out?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: So we're in the planning stages now. We're hoping to shoot once the school kids get out because our goal is to use the local high school students that are in video production as part of the parade. They get a production credit, and even they might help spread the word once they've been part of this. And, you know, I'm looking for not not too silly, but very relevant and also using it to teach our drivers how to use the upcoming HVSS reporting system, which is important to me because the portal and the route maps that we use currently is probably a lot of my time. Probably more than half my time training new volunteers is getting up to speed with the software, and I've, instilled a moratorium on the old paper system. So we have drivers that would quit before they would wanna learn how to use the website. But any new drivers that we recruit, we tell them they have to report electronically, and that reduces the workload and the paperwork for our dispatches a lot.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: What is the minimum At what age do you need to become a volunteer driver?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Oh, eight mean it is my yeah. I I haven't seen a hard and fast rule, but that's the rule I work with.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Do you have any young driver?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Not nobody that young. Our youngest driver right now is in their thirties, but, but, you know, we've been trying to recruit in places where younger people might be found. But, you know, I'll be honest, the the greatest pool of our volunteers are retired folks that we have in high proportion of veterans

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: that's affecting earning without affecting their Social Security benefits.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Absolutely. Yeah. We have drivers that make hundreds of dollars a day. We've had drivers that could make a thousand dollars a week tax free. Mhmm. So that's an incentive too.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, I have told me we in the small town I live in, we have a housing that has a little over 30 units in it. And a bunch of people drive each other, you know, in that. And they're in they're in their early seventies and they drive the other people that are older. If they knew if they knew about this and they knew they could get mileage in it, they'd be on the road way more than they are. You know? And they would spread out from the little housing development that they're in and and do that. It's, you know, it is, I think, a lot of getting information out there. And even what would they get paid is so economical compared to everything else. And it's just go ahead, Pat.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Well, I'm not sure if this is a question for Bobby or for Caleb, but in regards to the island, you you mentioned expanding into Franklin County. Does CIDR take care of the, volunteer drivers if there are any in the islands or do you?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: So the way we've set it up with CIDR is that they're sort of like a subcontractor. They manage their own pool of volunteers.

[Caleb Grant (Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association)]: Okay.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Although we do recruit in the area that CIDR might serve, so we would just send those applicants to CIDR for them to handle in their own methods. But they would take care

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: of it.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Yeah. But they follow the same rules and background checks that we do. So it's essentially the same same thing. Okay. And that the CIDR number didn't is was not included if another volunteer. So Yep.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. And then have you had trouble with background checks? You don't have to do fingerprints, or do you have to do fingerprints?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: No. Just the the background check involves, you know, the Department of Public Safety, the, Child Protection Registry, and the DMV. And then we have Just just one

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: check, or do you have to go to each one of those?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: No. It's well, our HR person manages the the but for the person, it's just one application. It's it's 24 pages, about 15 of which they have to fill out. It's a it's a part of the process. So do we do that during the interview phase? And one of the coordinators, myself or Gabby Levy, will make sure before they leave everything is spelled out correctly. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a net that catches a lot

[Ross McDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, VTrans/BTrans)]: of problems before, you know

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: They still have to pay the whatever it is, $35 of them. Yeah. $30.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Yeah. And so, you know, it's like there's a cost associated with background checks, but that's the first step. And then once they pass the background check, then we, the next stage is a two hour in person training, the four hour, online training, and then the final step before we let them fly from the nest Sure. Is a a drive shadow Ah. Where we go out with them for a a typical day.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So the state police does charge you for your bill for background check?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: You know, I'm not fully sure of that because I don't handle the actual processing. I just get them filled out, and our HR manager runs the background check.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Did get us that list. Yeah.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: It'd be good to know because we're talking the criminal record background check fund has a deficit. So the question about raising the raising the fee, but we're thinking, like, we're just raising the fee, but

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: then we have to pay more money than for If we if if we have

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to pay you to pay them to get and, you know, who's paying?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Well, perhaps we could be exempted from that charge given what we're Exactly. Or at

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: least not not pay the increase. Like, the money could should come from some some point of But it you you don't have delays. Like, it's working as far as from your knowledge. The system's working. Like, it's not a problem.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Oh, I'm happy to report that Vermont was the quickest state, but and usually two or three days, but we'll find out. But if they've lived in other states, New Hampshire, New York, it delays it by weeks sometimes. Okay. So it's just so I'm glad when their only addresses are in Vermont because I know

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And it's how is it how far do you have to go back?

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Seven years. So in the address, they lived for seven years. And we have drivers that have New Hampshire driver's licenses, and New Hampshire is a little funny about handling those requests because they won't send the documents to us. They have to send them to the driver, and then they have to give them to us. It just creates another hurdle. Mhmm.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's great. Yeah. I think at this point, then, you know, unless you have anything else you'd like to add, we're gonna take a ten minute break.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: Well, I'll just quickly end with, you know, one of my first recruits said that you'll need every walk of life in the in these rides. And I'm always telling our drivers that not only are they providing a service, but they're also they might be the only friendly face that our clients see the whole week. And so a lot of drivers take that very seriously, and they they give some pride. And, you know, I I would love to hear the reports, get lots of positive compliments, probably more than we get complaints, which is always nice, and I have a place to record them. So, you know, thank you for your time.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You're always you're always gonna get a handful of complaints. Yeah. And they're the ones that will stick out of your mind. You just have to think about the majority that are happy.

[Bobby Farnes Rubio (Volunteer Coordinator Lead, Rural Community Transportation)]: And no news is good news in in this world. Exactly. I have I there's a void exactly the same shape as the poster I brought for our community driver program.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Don't know if you'd like, if

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: you'd like,

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: but Nope.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That would be great. That would be great. Thank you very much.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thanks for

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: the good work.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. If you could take us offline, we'll be back at eleven Do you have a nine. We'll