Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Unidentified staff/AV technician]: You're alive.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I wanna thank everybody for coming tonight. This is the Senate Transportation Committee, and we have been taking a lot of testimony on inspections, and we welcome to our public hearing for the changes to the DMV inspection manual and S-two 11, which is the two year inspection bill. We are talking about, as a committee, adding language to the miscellaneous DMV bill on the inspection manual. And so that will be the focus of what we're taking testimony on tonight. My name's Richard Westman. I'm the Senator from Lamoille and the Chair of the Transportation Committee. And my colleagues are

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Good evening, Harrison. I represent the Windham District.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Good evening. Thanks for coming on. I'm Andrew Perchlik. I represent Washington District.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And I'm Becca White, I represent the Windsor County District, and I'm the vice chair of the Committee.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: And Pat Brennan, I represent Grand Isle County in Colchester.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: From this hearing, each person will have three minutes. Matt will run the timer, and Matt's with ledge counsel over here. And Senator White will call the names of each person. She'll call the immediate person, and then she will also say the name of the next person that will speak after that. If you are testifying on Zoom today, please mute yourself and keep your camera off until it is your turn to speak. When it is your turn to testify, please unmute yourself and turn your camera on and begin speaking. If this is your first public hearing, please note that our job as legislators is to simply listen to your testimony. We will not be asking questions during the hearing. Finally, if your time is up and you have, more you'd like us to know, please submit your testimony via email to Megan Connell up, who is our staff person in transportation. And I would tell you that I always do what Megan tells

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: me.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And we wanna thank everybody for coming. If you wanted to start the list.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And I wanna start also by apologizing. If I butcher your name, please correct it. We have first up, we have Liam Liam Hogan from Barrytown. And then on deck, we have Ike Debouille from Essex Junction on Zoom.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Right there.

[Unidentified staff/room moderator]: Welcome.

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: Good

[Liam Hogan]: afternoon, chair and members of the committee. My name is Liam Hogan. I'm a resident of South Barrie, Vermont and I own Hogan Group LLC of Vermont, a Vermont based web design and development firm. I'm here today in support of moving from annual vehicle inspections to inspections every two years and to encourage consideration more flexible compliance model. Each year it becomes harder for many Vermonters to afford inspection related repairs. While a cigarette sale may be modest, the repairs required to pass inspection can quickly top ten days and sometimes over $1,000. At the same time, more Vermonters are driving older vehicles, not by preference, but because newer vehicles are increasingly affordable. As vehicle prices rise, families are relying on higher mileage cars that are more likely to need work to pass inspection. When that happens every single year, it creates reoccurring financial strain. In some cases, that strain leads to people to delay or skip inspections altogether, because they simply cannot afford their repairs at that home. That puts residents in a difficult position, risk riding without a valid inspection, receiving a ticket, or lose access to transportation and cargo. In a rural state like Vermont, a vehicle is not often. It is essential for work, health care, and daily life. I would also encourage consideration of a conditional pass off for non critical issues where a vehicle could receive a sticker along with a written notice identifying items that should be repaired within a reasonable timeframe. That approach maintains accountability and safety awareness without immediately sideline someone's only means of transportation. This is not about lowering safety standards. It is about balancing safety with economic reality and ensuring compliance remains achievable for working for non Anderson. I respectfully urge the committee to consider moving to inspections every two years and exploring more flexible compliance options. Thank you for your time. Yes,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: and usually we don't react as a group.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We might say thank you.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, we say thank you. Ike Dibole. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing your name. But Ike from Essex Junction who is on Zoom. If that person is not available, Will Dodge of Fairhaven Motors. Fairhaven, you're up. And then after that is Isaiah Casey from Westmore On Zoom.

[Will Dodge]: Yes, my name is Will Dodge and I own Fairhaven Motors in Fairhaven for a while. I've been in the automotive business in Vermont in one capacity or another for fifty years, that ranges from service manager, used car manager, new car dealer. The only exception to that was the year that I was in Florida, which has no state inspections in Florida, And I was in a position where I was taking vehicles in on a new car dealer and looking at four or five, six year old cars that would come in trade, but they had no inspection. I can assure you that those cars were much less safe than comparable vehicles in Vermont would be. By that, I mean, proponents of the front end suspension, tires, brakes, things like that. The last gentleman's point is well taken with the cost, I realize that, but this is some people, but this is Vermont, BSI, we're coming in Vermont state inspection, shouldn't it really be Vermont safety inspection? Isn't that what we're all here for? It remains vehicles, roadways safe, whether they're driving or whether they're pedestrians. The whole issue here is time, way we see is vehicles that pass inspection today aren't necessarily gonna be, they may make it a year, but are they gonna make it two years? The brakes are okay today for inspection, but two years from now they're not gonna be. We take a lot of vehicles in for inspections that they're long overdue as it is now. People don't get inspections in their registration stickers anymore, so there's a ton of cars out there that aren't registered and if you start telling people that they've got two years to get their vehicle inspected, they're never gonna do it, they just gotta put it off. Ever since COVID, there's been a drastic amount of confusion as to when vehicles inspected and so on.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Beyond that,

[Will Dodge]: there are things in the manual, know this is the manual that is my service manager certainly, but if you want to make things more affordable for your constituents, there are things like rusty pickup times and farming a brand new truck that don't need anything to do with safety or as far as that goes, of taking things like that away. When I was starting this business 100 ago, these holes in the vehicle could not go into the passenger compartment, so there wouldn't be any exhaust, know, kind of thing getting into the passenger compartment, and that's kind of falling by the wayside, we're getting involved in a lot of things that we shouldn't be, so I think we need to go back and look at that basic, at that time inspections were every six months. So I would urge you to not bring in every other year, two year inspection. Thank you for listening.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'll just say, I'm if you're there, we're happy to hear from you. Isaiah Casey from Westmore, also on Zoom. Oh, okay. Deborah Doyen Doyen Yes. From St. Johnsbury on Zoom.

[Deborah Doyen]: Yes. I'm here.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yes. You're welcome to speak.

[Deborah Doyen]: Thank you, Madam Chairman and committee members. My name is Deborah Doyen, and I'm a native Vermonter and I reside in St. Johnsbury, Vermont. I believe that the Vermont Vehicle Inspection Program is flawed and should be eliminated entirely. Requiring state inspections every other year is not gonna solve the problem. It will only compound it. The costs associated with each inspection go well beyond the 50 to $75 fee for the inspection itself. They often include repairs mandated by inspection results, which are added financial burden on vehicle owners. And some of these repairs seem arbitrary and unnecessary. There is a significant conflict of interest when the individuals performing inspections also profit from the repairs. This arrangement raises serious questions about the objectivity and fairness of the process. I have experienced a situation where my two year old vehicle failed inspection due to surface rust on some areas of the brake rotors. The inspection requirements state the presence of rust or pitting on brake rotors by itself does not constitute a failure for the purpose of the annual safety inspection required under 23 VSA section twelve twenty two. I took my car to another mechanic to validate this finding and they agreed that it was only surface rust, no pitting and not on areas where the brakes contact the rotors. However, because my vehicle was flagged as failed in the inspection system, I was unable to obtain an override and pass the inspection. My options were to drive an expired inspect with an expired inspection sticker and risk fines, or to pay approximately $1,600 for new brakes and rotors to ensure passing the inspection. I felt my options were unfair and that I was being taken advantage of within the current system. Additionally, I encountered issues with required repairs such as having the brake pads installed improperly and the braking problems when aftermarket parts were put on instead of the OEM parts that I requested. It took six weeks and multiple visits to correct this issue. And I wanna make it clear that my vehicle had dealer installed components and was breaking great prior to the inspection. The inspection process did not make my car any safer. Changing the inspection frequency to every other year does not address the systemic problem. It is merely a superficial change and I see it as just rearranging the deck chairs. A straightforward solution would be to eliminate vehicle inspections altogether. But if inspections are to continue, they should be conducted by independent state operated facilities with no ties to repair shops to prevent these clear conflicts of interests. I urge the legislator to consider these issues and to take action to reduce the financial burden on Vermont residents. And if you need video, photos or receipts, I can provide them for you. Thank you very much for considering my testimony.

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: Thank you. Thanks.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you very much. We have, again, if Ike or Isaiah show up, you're welcome to raise your hand, flag us down. But next up, have Noelle Westman of the Source Foreign Cars in Berlin, and then on deck is representative Daniel Noyes of Walcott.

[Noelle F. Funk]: Evening. My name is Noelle F. Funk. I work as a service writer for the Social Line Cars, a locally owned garage here in the capital city. I attended the Central Vermont Career Center's Automotive Technology program when I was in school. I am here tonight on behalf of my employer to speak in opposition to this bill. In preparation for this statement, I read several other opinions on this matter. One really interesting point I read was in terms of vehicle safety, vehicles are safer than ever because of these better crumple zones from passenger safety and impacts and better driver assist programs like blind spot and lane departure warnings. However, this doesn't change the fact that vehicle inspections every two years instead of every year will lead to more dangerous vehicles on the road. The reality for state inspection stations is that many vehicles only come once a year for the inspection sticker. This is increasingly true as newer vehicles often have extended oil change levels. In the past, changes were necessary every three or 5,000 miles, and garage would have the opportunity to look for other safety concerns at the same time. However, many new cars only need their oil changed every 10,000 miles, which has the side effect that maintenance of wear parts like brakes, tires, and suspension is often neglected in the meantime. And we see customers for state inspections with tires that have parts showing or brake pads that have worn to the metal backing. If unchecked any longer, these parts would provide serious danger to the drivers as well as other end users. To put this in better perspective, the average driver travels between 12,015 miles a year. With inspections every other year, this would mean about 24,000 to 30,000 miles between inspection intervals. With rust, hills, mud, and other factors that make Vermont roads more hazardous than other areas, this is close to the estimated life of brake parts and over half of the estimated life span of tires. For example, if we're required to pass brake pads at the current inspection threshold with the expectation that drivers may use them for two more years, this would likely result in brake failure long before the next inspection was due. On the other hand, if the inspection standards for these brakes were changed to accommodate for a two year interval, we would be required to fail parts that had plenty of life left, which is a financial strain on customers, as well as a poor environmental practice. I'm very concerned by the suggestion to loosen regulations for tires, especially with the proposed two year inspection. The suggestion to pass any tires that do not have deep cuts or visible cords is very dangerous. Most tires will be worn past the point of safety long before they reach this point. And anyone who's driven in a Vermont country can understand the importance of traction on our roads. Even tired right on the threshold for the current inspection standard may be unsafe. You.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you very much. Representative Daniel Noyes is up. And then after that, we have Rep. Ken Wells.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes]: Thank you, Chair Westman and members of the committee for taking the time to hear my concerns about Vermont's vehicle inspection requirements. While I believe Vermont should consider following the lead of states that do not mandate annual inspections, I recognize the competing interests at play. The transportation fund relies on revenue to maintain our roads and bridges. There is also a long standing belief that inspections are needed to promote safety and many small businesses across our state depend on this work. Those realities matter. At the same time, we do not stop vehicles at our border when visitors arrive from states without inspection requirements. We expect, as we do of all drivers, vehicles operating on Vermont roads are safe, and we already have laws in place to address unsafe equipment. This raises a reasonable question about whether annual statement mandate is the only way to achieve that goal. Owning and maintaining a vehicle is expensive, particularly in rural communities where cars are essential. I firmly believe drivers should keep their vehicles in safe working order and take responsibility for maintenance. Whether that means learning basic upkeep or bringing their vehicle to a trusted mechanic. The issue is not whether cars should be safe. They absolutely should. But whether the state must require an annual inspection to ensure the outcome. I appreciate the thoughtful changes commissioner Collier has proposed and support moving forward with an expedited rulemaking process. I would also suggest several other adjustments, eliminating the high mean indicator like requirement, moving certain instrument cluster issues to advisory rather than automatic failure, allowing vehicle frames to be repaired by welders with an appropriate certification and ensuring rust on non structural components is not a cause for rejection. I support s two eleven as introduced by the senator from Windsor as an important first step, particularly in rural Vermont who feel the accumulated impact of annual inspection costs. If we are serious about addressing affordability and the cost of living, these small reoccurring expenses do add up for working families. I would also encourage including direction Including directing the agency of natural resources to pursue amendments to our state inspect implementation plan with the Northeast Ozone Transportation Region. So emission compliance can move to every other year and explore how other states in the region achieve federal compliance without relying on annual inspection mandates. Finally, I recognize it would not be in the best interest of Vermont to undermine the transportation fund. If the committee moves towards a mile based user fee in the future, a mission compliance could be included in a sworn affidavit, verified through OET2 scan at an auto shop, a dealer or a parts provider to ensure emission systems are functioning properly while ensuring costs maintain, while reducing costs and maintaining accountability. Thank you for your consideration as we work to balance safety, environment, responsibility, and affordability for Vermonters.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Next up, we have representative Ken Wells from Brownington and on deck is Newton Wells from Morrison.

[Rep. Ken Wells]: Thank you, chair and Windham, assistant chair. I used to work for the automotive business, so we ran into a lot of inspection obstacles over the years. These are a few bullet points. Inspections catch life threatening mechanical problems like tire tread separation, structural brain rust, brake failure, things that a driver can never see on their own. Reduced income for shops that perform these inspections, keeping our roadways safer, it costs them a lot of money and not have those inspections. Environmental compliance inspections would make sure vehicles meet emission standards. If they go two years, anybody that's pushing a green campaign has to be against that, because that's gonna create more pollution. Community benefits, stringent inspection standards will contribute to fewer abandoned or unsafe floating time bombs on the road improving overall public safety at all times. Not inspecting your vehicle would be like skipping your yearly physical to sue humans. The yearly inspection keeps your vehicle running in its best. With all that said, I certainly do not want a $2,500 bill because a light on your dash is on or six inches of body rust fails you for the inspection.

[Will Dodge]: Thank you for your time.

[Unidentified staff/room moderator]: Thank Thank you,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Wells. Up next another Wells, assuming not related, Newton Wells. Not related. Related. Not then after that, we have Alexander Knight of Alberg.

[Newton Wells]: All right. Well, good evening, folks. Thank you for your time and your patience as we all beat the same dead ones. My name is Newton Wells. I'm from Morristown. I like safe cars. I'm such a proponent of studded snow tires that my friends say I suffer from snow tire use disorder. I tell them just use the acronym and I'm okay with that. Being nothing more than a safety item, snow tires are not even required from state inspection. I suppose state inspection has its benefits, though. The question here today is, do those benefits outweigh the costs to working Vermonters? For people who can buy new cars, state inspection is nothing to worry. For many working Vermonters, they don't have that luxury. If you're driving a 4,000 car you bought a marketplace with 200,000 miles on it, and you need that car to get to work, get to the doctor, or take care of your family, inspection time is stressful and expensive, often unnecessarily expensive. There are plenty of Vermonters who live this reality. As vehicles become more complex, inspection has become less about safety and more about technical issues. With my last truck, I'd have to replace two or three sensors every year at 3 or $400 apiece. The associated systems were in good shape. The catalytic converter worked as it should, and the exhaust system was tight. But the O2 sensors would fail every time requiring annual replacement to pass state inspection just because of that dash. When I took my current truck in for inspection last summer, it needed brakes, tires, and exhaust, all safety items. I dropped the estimated $3,500 to get it inspected. But when I went to pick it up, they said it just needed one last thing, the little blue indicator light that tells me that the high beams are on. For this, it would need to go to the dealer in Burlington on the other side

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: of the mountain to have

[Newton Wells]: the dashboard removed to fix it. I drew the line. The truck is safe, but I had to choose between breaking state law and dropping another grand on an unnecessary fix. We know this comes down to revenue and that the state is currently using all of the purchase and use tax, including that from vehicles, to fund education, leaving a hole in the transportation budget that we need to maintain our roads. Why not take the $8 the state gets from inspections and add it to the registration fee? Inspections cost 10 to 100 times that $8 in unnecessary repairs. This is a regressive tax on working Vermonters. Vehicle maintenance should be a personal responsibility, and driving a car that is not safe is already illegal any. It's time to end the sticker extortion. S-two 11 is a step in the right direction. Please support this bill that will make Vermont more affordable for working people. And thanks again.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you, Newfoundland.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Wells. Next up, we have Alexander Knight of Alberg. And then on deck is Jacques LeFrancois from Milton Ansein.

[Alan Knight]: Good evening. I'm Alan Knight of Alberg.

[Alan Knight]: Over the course of the last three years, I've cultivated a protest group with the intention of removing Vermont vehicle inspections. We started as a group of 30 people, and today measure over 3,000 people across the state, with recent growth rates exceeding 9% per week. At this time, low, middle, and no income Vermonters are being victimized by a broken and unjustified vehicle inspection system. It has been proven that state inspections do little to nothing for road safety. Most accidents are caused by operator error. S-two 11 is a half measure that delays inspections for those who don't need and can't afford them by a year rather than removing them altogether. The bill that makes sense for Vermonters at this time is H-six 90, which would be completely justified and statistically supported in removing the burden of state vehicle inspection requirements for all road vehicles under 14,000 pounds. I have multiple copies and a PDF has been provided of a study funded by Brigham Young University with me today that verified my statements. I would encourage you to read it. I would be more than happy to share it or discuss the matter with anyone who would like more information. I encourage you to table S-two 11 and to do the right thing for Vermonters by voting yes on H-six 90 to eliminate vehicle inspections for most non commercial vehicles. That's all I got for today.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: You. Thank you. And I would, it's two things. I would say if you have materials you want to share with the committee. I believe

[Unidentified staff/room moderator]: you guys have been provided with

[Alan Knight]: a PEM. Anybody else would

[Unidentified staff/room moderator]: like a physical copy I have?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. And then this is so Jacques de Francois from Milton, you're on Zoom. And then we have David Ellenbogen from Callis, also on Zoom. And then after that, we have no other assigned spokes. So I don't know.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: At that point, I will ask if there's anyone else in the room that would like to speak.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So Jacques Lefrancois, if I'm pronouncing your name correctly.

[Jacques Lefrancois]: That is correct. Thank you for allowing this time. Background on myself, I started in the automotive industry in 1991, working at new and used car dealerships. And I had a Vermont state inspection license for about twenty years, plus or minus, and had been in the car business until about 2019. One of my reasons for participating today is after I got out of the car business and depended on other shops to inspect my cars, I was, let's say, dismayed at the interpretation of the inspection manual and what was considered a failure. And after bringing some of these interpretations to the attention of the shop, all of a sudden my car passed without an issue. Additionally, 39 states, I believe it is, do not do state safety inspections. And while I believe this bill is in the right direction, I'm with the other folks that believe that, like most other states, we should just eliminate Vermont safety inspections on that. My observations over the years are that the majority of the people bring their cars in for regular services, and even if you're in for an oil change or a tire change, you get a de facto safety inspection from the shop that would like to sell you some more work, looking over the same thing. Often at no charge, instead of a charge if you go in for an official state safety inspection. So I think the majority of the people on the road take responsibility for their vehicles, and there are just some folks out there that just plain can't afford to maybe do everything to make their car 100%, but they still need to get to work, they still need to get to the grocery store. And obviously, as we know, in most places in Vermont, public transportation is not really a viable option. So I'm encouraged by the direction this is going, some of the things in the inspection manual that are proposed to be made advisory items instead of failure items. And let's, again, I encourage just abolishing the whole program. I have submitted separately a PDF that shows a study in the state of New Jersey that abolished inspections in 2010, that really there was no substantial increase in incidents or severity of any accidents, and that the whole program was financially not a responsible spending of government money. So thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Then we have David Ellenbogen from CALUS on the SIM.

[David Ellenbogen (Vermont Sierra Club)]: Yeah. Hi. Am I audible? Yes. Okay, great. Yeah, I'm with the Vermont Sierra Club. I've served on the Transportation Committee. I was on the Executive Committee before. At one point, I was chair of the Vermont Sierra Club. And we oppose moving to two years on both environmental and safety grounds. Back in the 2000s, I studied at the Gund Institute, ecological economics, and there's the cost of air pollution and the cost of noise pollution. And both will increase if we switch to once every two years. And if you think noise pollution is not real, talk to somebody that lives on Route 100 in Stowe as motorcycles and trucks go by. The fact that these might be illegal vehicles doesn't mean that police are pulling them over. I spoke with my mechanic about this bill yesterday, his shop is within two miles of the State House. And he does not mind losing the business of doing inspections, he finds it somewhat of a nuisance. However, he pointed out to me the safety and environmental damage that will result from going two years instead of one. And for example, within the motorcycle community, it's very easy to change out a muffler system and to do that every year is more of a nuisance. Mufflers can get removed and put back on rather easily. So violating the state standards for mufflers on a motorcycle is easily done by somebody with mechanical inclination. Doing it every year to pass an inspection is more of a nuisance than going two years. All right, so there's the cost of inspection, and then there's the cost of hospitalization or death that can result from a crash. There's the cost of air pollution. There's the cost of noise pollution. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and cars cost money to own and maintain. It is not right to endanger others, including pedestrians, cyclists, farmers, and other vulnerable road users to save a few bucks on inspections by going to every two years. So in the name of safety, in the name of minimizing air pollution, in the name of minimizing noise pollution, and in the name of minimizing the number of unsuitable vehicles on the road, we encourage you not to switch to biannual inspections. I'll stop there.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you, David. Is there anyone else in the room that would like to speak? If you come up here and you need to state your name and same terms, three minutes, and then we'll see if there's anyone online.

[Steve Doney]: Thank you for having me. I was out of town the last week. My name is Steve Doney. I own Hometown Tire and

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Auto. Could you say your name one more time?

[Steve Doney]: Steve Doney, D O N E Y. Been in the automobile business for a long time. I used to buy cars from Will Dodge in Randolph, Vermont, Falls Auto Sales. Thank you, Will. I've been around for a long time. I own Hometown Tire and Auto in Williston, Vermont, and fifty one years in the automobile business, thirty five years employing five people. Going into, I don't know if anybody's ever heard of this,

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: I doubt.

[Steve Doney]: Ascension time saves nine. Now, you can't tell me, I see cars coming in and I'm not for every six months, but if people like miss Doy on, who miss their lot from Vaughn's or whatever, or a guy on the from Milton, they've been going to the wrong place. Let's find a good, honest guy, start from there. And I don't know dentistry, and, evidently, the first gentleman that talked to us, and he's gone. Now car business needs to be looked at by an honest person every year. Because what about Toyota? When they recalled over 1,000 frames at Heritage, tens of thousands of frames in the Northeast. Now do we all remember what a mess it was with cash for clunkers? Do you remember that? That is what's gonna happen if we do not look at cars within two years. We are going to see the cars. Now what makes a difference of a person going to a place and having a 200 repair or waiting to two years and have a $700 repair or $1,100 or $2,500 repair? I don't have many of them as we catch those stitches. Now here's the thing. When you get into having a $2,000 repair, I take it extremely serious. I go over my customers, I look into crystal ball, I tell them what may be happening in the future, and I'm aware of the way the roads are. I remember way back with Brian Searls and Sonny Odette and many of the people in the Chittenden County area, and Joe Flynn, his dad used to come to me. Bottom line is we have roads that are in rougher shape, and we have cars that we're seeing sway bar links by the drumful, and I don't put them on unless I need them, and I have people that have worked with me, five guys, and I have two of them that are 45 years old that have been with me for twenty seven years. They came out of the bog church, South Burlington, or Burlington now, Burlington, and they moved down to the Larry Karen building for a short time. But we are honest, and I think we're not getting looked at the way that we should be. We're going to the wrong place if we're not checking everything, and the other thing of it is is just should be done every year. And it's stitching behind safe zones. Pretty simple.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Steve Doney]: Okay. Thank you very much for having me,

[Frank King (King's Garage, Chelsea)]: let me talk. I was

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: vaccinated with a phone of a needle. I have no problem with that. I don't have an auctioneer.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Sir, if you'd come up. Name and

[Frank King (King's Garage, Chelsea)]: Frank King, King's garage, Chelsea. I'll take you back to the sixties when I was in high school. Just my voice. I have a little problem with sinuses. When I was in high school, we were inspected every six months. It was cheaper to do it back then, but we found a lot of problems in just six months. When I opened my shop 05/11/1970, I started doing inspections right away, and soon after that I became Vermont Dealer May, so I had the best of both worlds. I recently gave up the inspection, so maybe I don't have a dog in the fight, but I would like to tell you what happened over the years. I had people come in for inspections. If I found a loose ball joint, if I found a loose tie rod, I would not inspect the car, because I didn't plan on it going to here. I just recently bought a car at an auction that was inspected in August, I brought it home and thoroughly went through it, had a loose ball joint. Maybe it would have made it till August, but it sure as hell wouldn't have made it till next August. So, you know, I'm very opposed to it. I had people that would come in for oil changes, I would take the time to do a quick inspection, look around to see if there was anything else. I would find coil springs broken and rubbing on the front tire ready to open. Tell them about it, they would obviously want to get it fixed. So, brake lines, rust, there'll be brake lines that have rust on them. That don't mean they're not solid. You can tell, I'm a pretty good judge of character, I've been doing this for over sixty years. Tell your customers if you find something, let them know, say, you know, within a year, this probably isn't going to pass inspection again. You really need to think about looking for something else. You can't tell that in two years. You can't tell what's going to happen in two years. Coming up here today, the roads from Eastbury to Montclair, I'll tell you what, I've seen plowed fields that are much smoother, and that takes a toll on struts and coils and tie rods and ball joints. Tell your customer if he's got a rusty exhaust system. Say, you know what? It's it'll pass, but a little later on, it's gonna have a problem. You're gonna you're gonna hear noises. So, I think that's about all I have to say except that I am deathly opposed to two year inspections. Thank you for your time.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: This point, is can you help us, Megan? Is there anyone online that might like to testify?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Gabriel Cole, if you're on Zoom still, we're happy to hear your testimony. Yeah, this is Hi, Cole. Oh, we can't hear you. You're muted.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You're still muted. Now you're muted.

[Frank King (King's Garage, Chelsea)]: Can you hear us?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, but we can't hear you unfortunately, don't think.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We can't hear you. Yep. You're welcome to submit testimony. I don't know how to help you if we can't hear you. Thank you very much.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, and we do accept written testimony as well. Oh, she's got to help her. Well, if you wanna turn your video off and try again in like five minutes, maybe log out and log back in and we can try again.

[Liam Hogan]: Anybody

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: here? No, I have

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: a constituent in the audience.

[Alan Knight]: This person Just

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: come up here and give us your name and

[Kevin (last name unknown)]: It's Kevin. I've been in the business for forty years. And it's auto. Westport, Vermont. And I believe that inspections are very important. We have a lot of cars on the road that are super brewers especially with rest of K brains, A brains. The biggest issue I've seen with all the suspecting stuff all of a sudden is the last five years, no one had to do it. It hasn't been enforced. I'm telling you, if you take any of these old cars and you put 15,000 miles on them a year, things are gonna go wrong. It's mechanical. You can't change that. Carries back in the seventies and eighties, you know, you'd be lucky to get 60,000 miles out of them. They were junk. Now I run these cars 200 plus thousand miles. Over these roads in Vermont, we've had a worse winter this winter than we have had, of course. And the manufacturers as far as rust goes, cars are just made to rust. They don't, you know, they're just not like they used to be. It's that simple, and most Vermonters don't even wash their cars. I really want to be honest about it. And I inspect cars, obviously. I don't really care if I do or not. I'm mandated by the state of Vermont to do so, but you have to explain every day you're going to. And I've used a lot of common sense in my time doing this. Rust sounded very great break order. That's brilliant. A lot of shops have really taken advantage of this. It's a tablet. A tablet made these guys be able to say, I have to do this. Well, the rules have been the same for forever. Just now, they got to just say, hey, we got to do this. So, these people are all being taken advantage of. There's nobody in the department of motor vehicles that will stand up for any of these people. You can call there and they will actually laugh at you. And that's just not right. We had a woman in here last week. They said $3,000 to fix her 2018 Malibu, the check engine light, dollars 37 purge valve. I put in it, I said come back next week, gotta run this course, get back to where it's supposed to. And guess what I did today? I started that woman's crack. So what I'm telling you is if the state of Omaha would stand up to all these places that have taken advantage of all these people, we wouldn't have half the problem we got. It's that simple. It really is that simple and it just needs to be done. But I've talked to people over there and I've got one guy, Vicolet, he laughs, which makes me very happy. And I've stated it and yeah, it's just a tough deal. I think that it's not so much shops, so much taking advantage of all of them. But you take a big one. I'm going give

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: you a good one for if I knew.

[Kevin (last name unknown)]: So you just take these big dealerships, sell 5,000 cars a year. I figured roughly it cost them $65 a piece for having their employee inspect these cars, and they're giving them for free. It's over 300 and something thousand dollars a year they're giving away. You really believe in that? Absolutely not.

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: Think about that one.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Kevin (last name unknown)]: Thanks for your time.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I didn't catch his last name. Didn't catch your last name, Kevin. I'm sorry. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think it Gabriel, are you back? Can you Yes. Hey.

[Unidentified staff/room moderator]: There you go.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You got three minutes.

[Gabriel Cole]: I don't need three minutes, but I wanna agree with that last gentleman. The dealerships are taking advantage of Vermonters by offering free inspections. And I see it all the time that customers of of mine go to the dealership for their free inspection and have a 2 or $3,000 bill and then they come to us and we find the problem and it's 6 or $800 or $200 or whatever it might be, but a fraction of the cost. I think that is something that should be addressed, but my biggest point that I'd like to make is rust and rust is is the biggest problem in Vermont and I think that your time all would be better served addressing the rust problem. And one idea I had is a state sponsored rust prevention program. Maybe at AOT garages or something they could do a undercoat at a lesser charge than a normal garage. Undercoating is huge. We need to promote that more than anything. I was kind of shocked to read that let me see

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: if I

[Gabriel Cole]: can pull it up. I was kinda shocked to read what you guys had written about the tires and things like that. It just seemed silly to me. But that's all I got.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you, Thank Mr. You. I wanna thank everybody for coming tonight. You? Yes, will.

[Will Dodge]: Okay. First, I'd like to

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: ask a question right here. Have you got a list of all the states that don't inspect vehicles?

[Will Dodge]: You do?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We have. We have all

[Will Dodge]: of that.

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: You might want to mention that. Everything someone said here is

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: right on. You mind? John Peters.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And you're from? Contra.

[Liam Hogan]: I talked to you last night.

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: Will I talk again?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[John Peters]: Everyone's done a great job talking. I'm not a very good public speaker, especially when I'm on camera and people around me. Rust problem is a big problem. That last guy, I thought he was right on, about doing some rust. My biggest problem with inspections is trusting the person that does it. I go to a place, will not admit to it until where I go. I go every year, charging me $70 doesn't even look at the lights. Now he knows me and I know him and I keep track of my own vehicle. Maybe he knows that. I was on my way to Lebanon, New Hampshire, Room 4, just where you get

[Will Dodge]: the fat hat. There was a

[John Peters]: young girl there with a flat tire. I stopped to help her. She was probably 17 or 18 on her way to work on a Saturday morning. Well, I looked at her car, she had some tires, a back seat, but the two tires that were on the passenger side were down to the wire. I jacked the car up and the ball joints were shot, just about ready to fall off. And I told her that I fixed it, we need to get some air in the mobile station there. And I said, go slow to work, now falling, go slow. And I felt so bad before I looked at my wallet, I had two $5 bills I gave that to her. So it's costing the person to do it,

[Frank King (King's Garage, Chelsea)]: It wasn't gonna cost I mean, I had a sensor on

[John Peters]: my truck, got back from out west there in the summer, and the brakes weren't working on my trailer. I took it down to what was it? T Chevrolet, Windham. And they said, well, that's probably the module for the brakes. That's what they thought it was. But we won't know until we put it on the computer. And between the module and putting on the computer was $300 I know cars are expensive, they're getting more and more expensive. But something else got them down. I I'm four inspections every year, but it's not I was in here town in here and the same thing in Woodstock, now I know has an older truck, and both just in here in town, and this one, behind the rear fender on the driver's side, because it's completely rusted out. The car, know I'm forcing it. The sticker I got, I just bought a brand new, I got my truck I went out west with, it's 2014, never saw the saw, and I've had no gold choice. I just got a new truck, and I've got to add to my ones I have. And the sticker on it, it's fake. It was the sticker of one month old and you can't actually read it. Same with the sticker I got eight months ago, can't read it. So there's another problem. These stickers are being printed in the shop. So there's a problem there. Thank you.

[Will Dodge]: Thank you. At

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: this point, I think we've covered everyone and we thank you all for coming. It's our intention to work on both issues from DMV and the manual and work on 02/11 and then decide exactly where we are as a committee. And we should have something out by the end of the week, but we're gonna wrestle with this issue, and we thank you very much for helping us with that tonight. One short thing. Okay.

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: I would have felt

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: so much more accurate if you and Chad our representative would have chatted in a short area, more bus guys that are actually owners of the shops. I think this gentleman said it correct, know, with my key and so on and so forth. When I look at a car, well key looks like a car, two different eyeballs. So, you know, on an individual basis, I think we can be inferred a lot more accurate than we can here that says,

[Unidentified audience member(s)]: we might have had a time to look at a better place than we shouldn't have expected.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think that on an individual basis, send our DMV guy, otherwise Scott Davidson does a wonderful job, send him and some of the DMV people get our opinion, see some of the bad brains, see some of the stuff. But I think you'd be more accurate than you would be having a meeting with 35 people.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think there are people here listening tonight. We do have the chair of transportation in the house here and the DMV commissioner and the deputy commissioner are here. So I think people are listening. Good. With that,

[Unidentified staff/AV technician]: I'm