Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

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[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And it is Friday the twentieth, and we are the senate transportation committee. And we are here with Damian Leonard from legislative council, and we are talking about s three twenty six.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Morning. For the record, I'm Damian Leonard from the office of legislative council. You should have draft 2.2 in front

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: of

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you dated yesterday at 04:41PM. So the first three sections, you heard from chair Evans from the house this past week about the changes they're making, and these have been updated to match what's what's in their version of h five forty nine with the addition in the first section of the technical changes that were proposed on non driver identification cards to clarify that you can't have both a non driver ID and an operator's license at the same time. So the the changes from the, on the issuance of non driver IDs to individuals who are either sentenced or detained in a correctional facility. Begin down on page three. So in m one, the only change from the underlying language that we had is changing committed to the custody of the commissioner of corrections to intercorrectional facility. We're going to define correctional facility to match up to title 28, and, the submission of documentation required for non real ID or real ID is language that was from the underlying miscellaneous motor vehicle initial draft. And then in on lines eight through 12, the old language said, that the Department of Corrections would inquire with an individual, about their desire to obtain a nondriver ID or any driving credential. We've updated that to nondriver ID, operator's license, or replacement learner's permit just to track the new language that's being added in the sections to follow.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Next. What page are

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: you on?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry. This is page three.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, I'm wait sorry.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Page three. Page three twelve.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, I see. And this is I apologize. I was not here for rep Evan's testimony. So Okay. If I understood you correctly, this is all reflecting what they were hoping to see.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Okay. That's really all that I would

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Essentially essentially, what I did is I worked with my colleague Hillary, and I took the language that she worked on with the house corrections and institutions committee and from subsection m onwards in section one, it reflects their work. Before subsection m, it reflects your initial bill. And so that the additional work from them that you had not seen before is starting on line 17. This provides that an individual who is detained for six months or more in a correctional facility is eligible for a non driver ID and is oh, if an individual sorry. Been morning already. An individual who's detained for six months or more in a correctional facility is eligible for a nondriver ID, the Department of Corrections, as soon as reasonably practicable, shall obtain the documentation required. And then going on to page four and provide the individual with the documentation of the time of release. So the reason for the difference here is because when an individual is detained, you don't know exactly when they're going to be released versus when they're sentenced. You have a clear release date. Yeah. And and that was

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the main point that that was raised by, you know, chairman Evans. Mhmm. Or chair owners.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. And so the, the application would include the post release mailing address and proof that the individual is a resident of Vermont following release from the correct channel facility. And then upon proper application and submission of the required documentation following release, an individual who was detained for six months or more would be provided with a nondrug right knee for a fee of $0. So, essentially, with an individual who's sentenced, the work is done ahead of time so that they can be given a non driver ID on release. With an individual who's detained, they have to go to the DMV following release to get that non driver ID because you just don't know when the release is happening.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. Think this is good, it's definitely better than what happens now. Sometimes sentenced people are not you know, don't leave automatically when they're sentenced so I just don't

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: want people to think about, you know,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: to think that that's always the case. But this is definitely better. It's important for someone to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: be able to do My a hope is in the timetable that if we're already resolved except for the language about inspections, you know, in in that that we would have the hearing in the next day unless we heard something that we needed to react to in the hearing, this mean we'd vote the bill out, like, on Wednesday. So that would mean probably not until, like, the end of that week, Friday, that we would be up for reading. So if your committee could just breeze through this and just Right. So if anybody asked, we could say that you

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes. And it would just be choose.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. One Just the corrections.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's actually sections one through six now.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll see. One through six.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We'll update you.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Things have had to get split out because of timing issues. So one of the things that I wanna highlight here is that section one and then the other sections on detainees all have a January '7 effective date in the current proposal. The sections on sentenced individuals for operators licenses and learner's permits are 07/01/1926, and that reflects how quickly DMP and DOC think they can implement this proposal. So there will be extra time needed to implement an MOU and and working procedures for detainees is my understanding. So That's back here. Right? Yeah. So the one question that I think I would raise with section one is whether it needs to be split into two sections because of the real ID language and what and the not having two forms of ID language, whether we need to do that on July 1 instead of letting that wait another six months. And I I would just defer to the DMV to weigh in on whether they think that needs to be split. It's a very easy change for me to make to the bill before you vote it next week.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So if we do it.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then as I mentioned, on the bottom of page four, we're defining correctional facility to have the same meaning as in title 28 section three. And so that was the that's a standard definition there. So we're not we're not having any confusion about what we're referring to here. Section two is the replacement license language that, was in the that you've seen before. So this is for an individual who's sentenced to serve a period of imprisonment. The only changes here are the use of correctional facility rather than custody of the commissioner of corrections. And then we tweak the language a little bit around post release mailing address and proof that the individual will be a resident following release from the correctional facility. House corrections and institutions just wanted to be really clear about when are they a resident of Vermont for purposes of getting the ID. So that's those are the changes in this section. In section three, this provides the replacement license language for an individual who's detained. So the language tracks with the prior section in that it provides that they would, to the extent practicable, seek to get the documentation to the individual to then provide it to them upon release, and then that the individual would have to include their post release mailing address and proof that they're resident of Vermont following release, and then submit the application themselves at which time they would get the replacement license for $0. And, again, using the standard correctional facility definition. And then in sections four, this is the learner's permit language for incarcerated individuals, same as before where we just updated the term correctional facility and clarified that it's post release mailing address and residency. And then in section five, this does the same thing for detainees. Again, tracking before where the documentations provided on the lease, and the detainee goes to the DMV to get the credential themselves. And then in section six, this is an update to title 28 section one zero two, the responsibilities powers of the commissioner of corrections, and it adds that the commissioner is charged with the responsibility to and I'm on the page eight now, to coordinate with the DMV to provide eligible individuals with non driver identification cards and documentation pursuant to 23 VSA one fifteen m and m, replacement operator's licenses and documentation pursuant to 23 VSA section six thirteen c and d, and replacement learner's permits and documentation pursuant to 23 BSA six seventeen g and h. So this is a sort of technical change that I would have overlooked. So appreciate my call and catching that. So that is the credential sections there, sections one through six. Questions? Unless I hear anything,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we would like you to look at it before we get to the floor in institutions. But Yeah. I think we're all ready to go with this.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. Yeah. Everything is good.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. The next section is open.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. And this has not changed. This is the insufficient funds received for fees section where it's being expanded to electronic funds transfers, including credit and debit charges. Yeah. We the committee is waiting to hear more in front of the department on this section. K. And it's holding the government for the time being. Section eight is the smuggler's notch.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think we I I thought those these sections were I wanna focus in on those sections that we are we had a disagreement around. So we've got Okay. Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: To that point, Chair Westman ish, I'm assuming that every section that we've kind of gone through that we've talked about is kind of a check yes. Yep.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: We're done with.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yep. Is that a good way to think about it?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's a good way to think about it. I thought when we get to Wednesday after the hearing, we'll settle the I don't like and then we'll do one final lunch and then go.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. I guess what I'm

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: saying is I would vote for all the sections we've discussed at this point. Right. So that's kinda how

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm We not gonna do have we we do have the trailer issue. Yeah. We do have the issue of the car in it it we we have a few open. I'd like to stick to those open plans right now.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Right. So just just to clarify, we just left seven open waiting for language. Seven is far.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And it's I think it's that one is more waiting for additional testimony from the department. Yep. Yeah. Good.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Damien, do you are you able to make one of those sheets where it's, like, set that?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: He has a sheet like that.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Can update it this afternoon.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yep. I mean, that

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Would be very

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm I'm booked until about 01:00, but after that, I can work along.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So you can email it to everybody. I can.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Hallelujah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: The next open Let me

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: put a reminder for myself after I get back to my office today.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I have the open sessions, but I gave my notes on the to Megan.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I still have it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, thank you. There we go. Yeah. Insufficient funds, and then the purchase and use piece, which is 13 and 14. Mhmm. And then the section 16 CDL and emergency vehicles.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So we are actually the numbers have changed because of the additional sections from the house. So purchase and use is back to well, it used to be 1516, then it was 1314. Now it's sixteen and seventeen. So and with purchasing US tax, I understand from the department that there is another proposed change. So this language here tracks actually what you saw in the last draft. My understanding and I'll defer to the department on this, but my understanding is the proposal is to go from shipping weight to a gross vehicle weight rating or GVWR, which is a a rating of basically max load capacity for a vehicle that's produced by the manufacturer and to change the threshold on that, I believe, to 13,500 gallons Right. Versus shipping weight right now, which is essentially the unladen weight apart from engine fluids.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Can you point to where

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So on page 20 K. We would be striking shipping weight, the definition of shipping right there, and replacing it probably on the prior page with a definition of gross vehicle weight rating. I think I don't see

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think your page numbers are a hair off.

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: They're they're not ready.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I got that on page 21 at the top. Oh. Line two twenty one.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep. Something rain is

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I am sorry. Sorry. The not sure why that happened. Oh. Two point My apologies. My laptop was just updating slowly. It told me I'm still on page 20.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But We're working

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: on it. You're right. Line two of page 21, shipping weight. Okay. So that definition will be struck, and then a new definition of gross vehicle weight rating or GPWR will be added. And then going into section 17 on also on page 21 line 20, we would change motor vehicle with a shipping weight of up to 10,099 pounds to motor vehicle with a GVWR of up to 13,500 pounds. Wait.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I don't

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We don't Yeah. We don't have that specific language in We have demotor vehicle?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So motor vehicle. Oh. So you would strike shipping weight and replace that with GVWR. Oh, we have And then strike 10,099 and replace that with 13,500. Oh,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: so it has

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to be done. This is the department's proposal. Oh, okay. So and I'll let them speak to that. Yep.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Do we have to copy of that?

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: We had emailed it last night.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: It's like an amendment.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So So

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: on thirteen thirteen five.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: GVWR. GPWR.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Gross vehicle weight. And so without going through every instance where that will show up, this will get repeated three times throughout because there are three different ways the tax is applied depending on whether you're whether you bought in state or out of state, etcetera. And I think that's the change on, otherwise, the language is saying as is, but, I'll defer

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to the department. That's the main part of this. So why don't we, at this point

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You wanna

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: get both swab. Yep. And we're gonna wanna hear from both of you. So however you wanna do this. It might.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: There is some.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. Take your care of them. Oh,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: is this takes you away. Oh, no.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: You said the thirteenth before today, and this isn't. I'll go start. Okay, that would be awesome.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Good morning, Andrew Perchlik, Richard DMV. Matt Cota with Meadowvale.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: As Damian mentioned, we discussed yesterday, we also brought in Vermont Trucking Bus as well for some consulting on this. We decided to go with the gross vehicle weight rating, which is a sticker that's on the side of the vehicle, and it it gets us out of what we consider the plagiar vehicle section. Most one tons when you crew cab with dually, the max is 14,000. We brought it down 500 pounds just to capture because I know there's some dualies that are out there that are more commercial based for use. And it it'll probably still be a very, very small slew of people that could I won't say exploit that, but utilize that section. But I think we're not we're intending this to not hang up industry or commercial customers. So we think that £13,500 number is the right number, at least for right now, and you can always revisit this at a later time if needed, but I guess an an important change.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Really doesn't change any of the present policy, but it narrows the loophole. Correct. It doesn't totally close off the loophole, but it narrows it significantly.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Significantly. It to a very small band that, I guess, who have who are able to drive a literally, a one ton dually that would call in a 13,500 or or higher category, which is a very small number of vehicles.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So can why don't you however you two wanna talk, introduce yourselves speak about this, and then we'll we'll open it up for questions.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Matt Cohen, Meadowville, behalf of the Montpey

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: and Palm Orchard Association, I think this is a a good compromise. I think the ability to use with the MSO, and I have an example of the committee would like to see what it looks like. It's an official document, looks like a title. It's much more persuasive and much more grounding than perhaps it. It's also an excellent idea, which is an affidavit of purchasing or a potential that's a great pathway. But having an actual certificate, MSO, from the manufacturer that states what the gross vehicle weight rating is. I think it's a more official document, a more accurate document. I think this is a good compromise.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So is this the sticker on the inside of the door?

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Yes.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Okay. It could be an MS, if I may. Yes. It all looks like that. So this is the Freightliner.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, that looks very

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: This is the Freightliner M2 that I was referring So it states very clearly, Freightliner M2, which

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: But is it the same as what you see

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: on Yeah. It's also

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: vehicle, like, when you buy it?

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Yeah. Flackered. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Usually, the door panel, but it could be much less.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: And and when someone purchased that vehicle, it will say what that shipping weight is, and it will also say what the gross vehicle weight rating is.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So those are two different numbers? Yes. Okay. So that's where I'm getting confused. So if I purchase one of these, I I buy a cab in a chassis or whatever, inside the door, there's like a little sticker. Which one is that? Is that your gross vehicle weight?

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Yes. That'd be your gross vehicle

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: weight. So that is lower typically than what you're saying is on this other document?

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: So the manufacturer statement of origin is an additional piece of paper. It may also say that on the side of carpet. It's an additional piece of paper that would, as a purchaser or a truck, you would acquire. That essentially says what you can put on the back. You're buying a cab and chassis, just steel on the back. There's nothing on it.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Why would they be different then?

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: The shipping weight is the actual weight of the vehicle that's delivered to the truck dealer. If you're talking a cab and chassis, it is just the cab, the chassis, the tires. A gross vehicle weight rating is the amount that you can put on that cab and chassis in order for it to be legal. You couldn't put more than that. You could put less than that.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I thought you got that information from the vehicle basically. The only reference I have is when you open the door and you look and it's got that info. So that's where I'm getting confused. This is a completely separate document that you would buy probably if you're only a commercial purchaser. So you don't get this if you go to the dealer.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: If you're buying If was

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: someone who didn't have that piece of paper, how would I prove this information?

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Widely available online, but The manufacturer statement of origin would say exactly this vehicle, this VIN number.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So would I need that to get? Yes. So this is really only for commercial folks, which feels like an advantage to commercial folks over, you know what I'm saying?

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: We we need to establish something that's that's official document that determines what the weight of that vehicle is.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So if I'm not a commercial hauler, how would I get this documentation to prove it to you?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I get I'm getting yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I'm getting a little lost.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think anybody that buys this, just the cab only with a frame on it, wants to do something else with it, would definitely want that document

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Because they already know what they're gonna do with that Mhmm.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Truck and what that weight how much weight they're putting on it, how it's gonna end up.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: And if I were the welder that was assembling a something to go on the back of that of that chassis Right. I would want it either I mean, many of them do do the same trucks over and over again, but they would definitely want an episode to make sure that they are putting it on in accordance with the manufacturer's requirements.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And what you're saying is anybody that is going to add stuff onto the back end at the point of purchase, they would ask for this document. So anybody could ask

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: for document.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Yeah. Yeah. Because they wanna pay less. If they wanna pay

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: the back

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: tax. But anybody for her Yeah. That's fine. For the question that that senator White is asking, anybody that walked into a dealership, I'm buying this regardless of whether I'm a commercial operator, whoever I am, you can ask for this document. Yes. Oh, great. Eric.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: I'm from it. Matt Russo, deputy commissioner

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: for DMV. It's also available on JD Power.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: You can look it up in

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the code by then. And if it's all listed there, all the information.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Is the thing. It's their approach. I'm like, hell, who's getting I've never seen this.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's the that's the birth certificate of the vehicle.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: The birth certificate. Okay. Thank you. This makes me feel more comfortable. I appreciate that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, so now we're

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: in here. Go ahead. Matt is correct. Bill Smith from Montruck and Bus Association. Matt is correct. The numbers are easily verifiable by DMV if somebody comes in and wants to register a three quarter ton pickup truck and it's going to be, oh your GVWR is $11,500 you're paying full tax. Conversely if you're buying a cabin chassis that might have a shipping weight of 9,510,000 pounds but it will say on it this truck can be configured to haul up to 26,000 pounds whatever the month is. But that's typically a good range you can figure on. Which also makes sense because the way that the federal government classifies vehicles from class one through class 10, or it's like a class eight tractor trailer. Class three would be sort of your heavier trucks from 14,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating up to, I want to say,

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: 18 or 19. I could

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: be wrong. The classifications go three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten above sort of your pleasure card type trucks that you will be capturing here. So somebody's driving around a three quarter ton pickup truck or a one ton pickup truck that's not with dual rear wheels, they're gonna pay full 6% tax on the purchase price. That's the loophole that's being closed here. I don't like to use that word because it's it's a policy decision made by the legislature over the years that if you wanna change it, change it, but don't treat it like it's a sneaky thing because people are following rules. And now they're gonna have to follow Google. Wow. Which seems to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: be fair to the industry. Yeah. The industry. You can

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: whenever I look

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: rules, I know. For people look for little ways to take advantage of them. They want to take advantage of it.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: All right, this is really helpful. I hope that we get to have an example. It sounded like you might have had an example of what is current and what is proposed.

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: I can give you a verbal sample.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, would like to have it

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: for on example, a sure.

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: Say one of the members of

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: the retail

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: lumberjacks, they'll buy a chassis and a frame. That might weigh 95, 100, 10,000 pounds. They're going to take that and put a flatbed on it with a crane that can pick up, bumps a sheet rock or hitch into the lumber on a job site. So they're going to custom build that above and beyond what they buy from the dealers, one of mass dealers. So they're going to get that truck, and it's gonna have that statement of origin on it that's gonna say, this truck weighs 9,800 pounds roughly. It's gonna have an exact number. You can add to this up to the maximum weight of 26,000.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: If I may, sir, this is sometimes it's confusing. So this is a cab and a chassis. This is Freightliner m two.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Okay. You can't really don't don't get groceries with this. This is something that

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: you build on top of. Look good when you're back.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: But the but the shipping weight is less than 10,099 pounds.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. Because yeah. So because the shipping weight is the actual Yeah. Weight of the vehicle.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: It's a

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: naked vehicle. Naked vehicle

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: with nothing on.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: When it's in the boat coming over.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Right. Then but the gross vehicle weight would then would then insure. So so someone could legally buy this, pay the max tax, put a plate on it, drive it two counties over, put a put a bed on it or a dump body on it or or a tanker on it, and then everything would be legal and it would be effect effectively paying.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But up up until this time, age 50 did not have something official to be able to claim this. Now will say you have to have this document to be legal to claim.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, well, think it would still be helpful to just have an explanation of this in words on a piece of paper because I think, aren't we dealing with two different ways, the weight of the vehicle versus the capacity of the vehicle to haul? That's where it gets challenging I think.

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: Well I think that I do agree with that. I think that the capacity of the vehicle is the number where the industry's all used to dealing with.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. That's what we want to know how much you can haul.

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: And you also need to make sure that your your brakes, your transmits, your engine are capable of handling whatever you're gonna haul maximum amount.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right. And that's actually what is impacting the roads too. So that's what we should care about.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, let's get down a bit. This I'm asking for

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's the what I wanna

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: There's no expectation that this will bring in less revenue.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: No. Okay. Well, just answer the question.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's my bottom line. So That's your bottom line. Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But it certainly won't generate revenue that is

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. But it Well it clearer for everybody.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes. Yes. It has been.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Just like that. I think

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: it's weird bringing in some revenue because no one can

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: the DMV changed that policy in January. Isn't that why we're here? So we had closed the loophole already. We're actually, in a way, kind of like moving it, is what it feels like.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: There we

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It wasn't our, I just wanna

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: be clear, it wasn't our intention

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: we're we're closing it for people that were abusing it. We weren't trying to affect industry, and that's where we

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: are Yeah.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Unintentionally kinda caught some vehicles in that crosshairs

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: while as we close it.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So Okay.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: This is clarifying it, and it's putting it clearly in document, which we have our draft, which

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So don't have this draft. Or not draft. Sorry. Yeah. Post. If we could I think Megan now has it. Yes. It's posted online as well. Okay. Why don't you just email it around all of us too? So we've got it two ways and but the intention of what they are working towards, we're comfortable. Yes. Yes. Thank you. And I we appreciate you going out and working out something that's worth it. Thank you,

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: John. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And give us a. And as I said, we will go through the complete draft on, after we have a card hearing next week. And my intention will be at that point to pass somebody and make a motion motion to move this.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, I didn't say.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes. Yeah. After we but after we've done the hearing. Oh, I see. K. The CDL piece?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. So section 19, which the language draft is which page? The the language itself really starts on page 25, but it starts bottom of 24 on the 25, and the the words are there. So this is the emergency exemption here from the CDL requirements. Mhmm. So it not withstands the rest of the section regarding requiring a c d l and says during a weather related emergency declared by the governor, an employee of a state agency or a Verma Vermont municipality may operate a commercial motor vehicle with a weight of 26,001 pound or more pounds without being required to hold a commercial driver's license while the emergency or emergency condition is ongoing if they're expressly permitted to do so pursuant to the terms of the governor's declaration. And so I think this could be a blanket permissions. The governor would say, we're waiving CDL requirements for response to the flooding or the snowstorm.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Fire.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then the fifth individual is performing official duties or activities related to the execution of emergency governmental functions. So go keep going. Pursuant to 49 CFR three eighty three point three d two. And I took that language from New York's law to create that creates an exception for state and local emergency employees from the CDL requirements in an emergency situation. And then we've added kept the language that was in prior versions requiring a valid operator's license under Vermont or another state's law and defined weather related emergency to mean a situation or condition resulting from atmospheric conditions or a weather event that involves significant imminent or ongoing risk to public health and safety, infrastructure, or property.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So Go ahead. Wonder if we're going to do this if we want to limit it to weather related emergencies. If there was a non weather related? Fire. That's what we're talking about.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, non weather. Earthquake.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So It's not like

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It could be

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: In that case direction. What what I would say is that you could say during an emergency declared by the governor, and then redefine emergency to mean a situation or condition that involves significant imminent don't know.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Would it be better to have natural disaster? Because natural because that's an earthquake. I don't think

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: a fire is a natural disaster.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: It's time for a fire.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There's there's already No. Go ahead, Brian. If I may, there's already an exemption for firefighters and the National Guard from CDL requirements. That's an existing law. So firefighters can drive a large fire truck without having a CDL. National Guard can drive a large military vehicle without having a CDL. This is extending it to other state and local employees to operate other large vehicles in this case. And so these are these are, as we were just talking about, heavy duty vehicles.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: And it had to be especially permitted in the governor's.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the governor would basically have to say that for purposes of this, we're waiving CDL requirements. This is different from a waiver that can be granted under federal regulations for private sector CDL drivers who are bringing supplies in. So for example, after the flooding, the governor already has authority under federal law to waive CDL requirements for, private truckers from the hours of service requirements so that they don't have to rest every so many hours, but instead can run do more runs in a short period of time. But this this is kind of a tailored piece, and I tied it back to the federal regulations too because, there is some ambiguity at the federal level. So if they choose to clarify this one way or the other, this will keep us in line with them without having to revise those. But the question that you could the New York law, if I remember, does not say weather related emergency. So can double check. Illinois. I mean, she's not concerned.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. I think we could just say if you got an emergency declared by the governor Yeah. Strike weather related. Yeah. And make it just emergency declared by the governor. Could be a. With the Volcano?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's the thing.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Yeah. But

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I'm sure White. I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: do I do wonder in a smaller the government would probably call an emergency.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Well, it's like a horse well, a large eagle horse.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, it's very can't can't make talk to numbers.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So New York law Yeah. York's law works a little bit differently. They exclude from the definition of commercial motor vehicle. So vehicles where you're required to have a CDL to drive them. What they do, what they say is a vehicle or combination of vehicles owned and identified as being owned by the state or a political subdivision of the state or an ambulance service. Sorry. Have to skip ahead. Or emergency medical service to perform official duties or activities related to the execution of emergency government functions pursuant to section three eighty three d two of title 49 of The US code of federal regulations. So they're basically and then I think as far as the emergency definition let me pull up that document. So emergency operation is the term they define, and they define that as the operation or parking of an authorized emergency vehicle. Oh, except this is a narrower definition here from a different part of their law, but it it includes responding to or working or assisting at the scene of an accident, disaster, police call, alarm, or fire, actual or potential release of hazardous materials, or other emergency. It also includes transporting organs for transplant where undue delay would risk the health and safety of an individual, blood and blood products.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think that's saying that has to be a declaration that the governor Mhmm. Just say if the governor declares an emergency,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: we're not And then get rid of weather related Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We don't care about that. Sure.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Can I ask a question? So did this kind of legislation come about because of some emergency and then the insurance company wouldn't pay something?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I would ask the DMV. So the original language was proposed by the DMV, and we've been working to just make sure that we true it up with the federal requirements so that we don't end up with the the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration citing us. Because if they cite you for a violation, they can also try to withhold funding from the state. So we're trying to avoid that issue. But the actual impetus for this, I don't

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: know. So Which is we

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: It's just I mean, I won't and and we need to stay in our lane

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: by the transportation. Commissioner beat the comment. Alright.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: So we're past center. So this came from the agency side of AOT, they're not game planning. They're they're preparing for instances that could additional resources could be needed. So this is where this stemmed from conversation.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, alright. It just seems there are so many other regulations that you would, in an emergency, you do what you need to do, and trying to a little bit of treatment.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: We're trying to find a series of this exercise.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: It's just like if something isn't in here, does that mean that we know that we have to do it and it's not allowed to be ignored in an emergency? This is just the kind of list that can never be completely answered. But that's okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think emergency is broader than weather related. Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And I, in the case of a fire, I want them to be able to move.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And I think they are, some attorney needs this to happen or some insurance company needs this to happen, so.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It's a weird litigious society. Yeah. Do you wanna comment? I I

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: it is all the attorney's fault.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No. It's

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the attorney's fault. So I I would just say that the new definition would define emergency to mean a situation, condition, or event that involves significant imminent or ongoing risk to public health and safety infrastructure or property. And so it's one of those, and it gives the governor discretion to waive these requirements for public employees only during that event. So it's a broad range of conditions, I think, that involve imminent or ongoing risks. But it's a narrow group of employees, and it has to be following an emergency declaration. So this does become a judgment call. We won't be able to define every category, but now you're not limited to weather related. So, for example, we wouldn't have to update this if there's, I don't know Interesting. A human caused emergency like a fire that requires moving the trucks out of the path of the fire, something like that. And you don't have to parse whether a wildfire that may have been started by someone is a weather related emergency. And, yes, we do have wildfire risk. Sure. So but it's like, you know but this, I think, is as broad as we can go. This would capture meteor strikes. This would capture the unfortunate instance of an earthquake, a volcano. This would not be a It's too bad. See. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I I will just say is I feel a little touchy about this with, representing a town like Johnson with the fire station in the flood plain. Oh, yes. Yep. And and so I'm I totally get where this and I'm I I wanna at least I'll I'll vote. And I understand where you are. But but

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: but so exam so there could be a private person, not a state employee, who has a CDL. So we couldn't let that person

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So they're try to charge.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But but that's

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Part of part of what we're doing here too is trying to create a path through the federal regulations. The federal regulations say that you cannot have a state employee operate a CDL in these circumstances unless the state has adopted an exemption. So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: so so there is So

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: there is is legal regulation, and and I apologize if I was a bit glib a moment ago. So But there there is a federal regulation that we do have to create a pass through Okay. Before we can avoid running afoul of the federal regulations and risking consequences from the feds if they decided to.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That makes sense.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: so I think we're you heard the change suggested by senator Perchlik.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have it already marked up in my draft. Well And it'll be in the next version.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It'll be in the clean, and I think we're okay with

[Bill Smith (Vermont Truck and Bus Association)]: this. Yep.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: The next thing I had was the draft language around the people that wanna hunt and fish in less than three feet of water. Yes. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's section 22. Hey.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm I'm with you.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Sounds funny, but it makes sense.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think you should probably

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's section 22, which starts on page 31 if my if my laptop is updating pages fast enough at this point. Yes. And the new language is on page 32, which adds a new subdivision b that says the requirements of this subdivision shall not apply to an individual who is aboard a vessel that is located in water that is not more than three feet deep and is actively engaged in hunting or bow fishing and holds a valid permit issued under NVSA card four. So the last bit of that language was recommended by Mike O'Grady in our office. It covers hunting and fishing. And so this basically means that you're you actually have a permit from the state to be hunting and fishing or fishing, and then you're engaged in hunting or bow fishing. This will leave out individuals who are fly fishing or lure fishing or otherwise, but it will cover hunting and bow fishing.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I would just say I am not supportive of this language because I think this group of people also should be wearing light vests, especially people who are deaf hunting. I think that that group of people we heard specifically had a death in their community due to drowning during a wintertime event. But if this is important for compromise purposes, I'm looking to accept it because it's my point. And I appreciate the

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: The conversation.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I do support this language, but I'm just wondering I don't think it makes a big difference, but when you say valid permit, it's it's a license. Does that make any difference? Fishing license, hunting license.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll ask Mike. So I I Care. I used the language that he he gave me, and I don't have expertise in that area, but I'll ask him.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So I don't know if that's

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a term of art within that. It could be title, and we call it a license, but the statute call it permit.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I have heard one or one against our we as a group okay with this. K.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you all for your willingness.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thanks, sir.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Next is 23.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Pay vehicles. Yes. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Can they go faster than 55?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Apparently, some of them can.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So I've never spent so much time on cave vehicles. I hardly knew when they were myself. I thought it was to see that they had little pickup little dump trucks with them. It's like, woah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I so if if I can speak personally for a moment, I think it would be fun to get all the vehicles that we're addressing in this bill. Have a day here at the state house.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I don't I don't think any The split rate vehicles over 10,900. Oh,

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: yeah. Some big trucks. Could have a state house touch of truck day. That was one of the highlights of being a dad for me. So, anyway, getting getting back to this. So this would define pleasure car to include k vehicles. And then you'll notice with farm trucks, I've left in the term or k truck, and that is something that I wanna highlight because that's a policy choice for you. But what I've done is defined k truck as a k vehicle that's designed, used, or maintained primarily for transportation of property. Because with farm truck, we already call out motor trucks, which are sub sub subset of motor vehicles that are different than pleasure cars. And so this is calling out k trucks, which would be per my the dump truck version or the flatbed version as opposed to the k vans or the k sedans.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So so explain to me if I get one and I'm gonna go get my fence post with on this. It it it this does what?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So this basically says if you got a K truck, so one of the ones that has a flatbed Yep. Or other they're you know, they have all sorts of different versions. But if you got a k truck that's designed, got the little two person cab, and then the rest is for transportation of property in general, that's k truck can be registered as farm truck. So you're covered. What this would limit here, and this is the policy decision. So I tried to track the existing law. Mhmm. But what this would limit is so senator Perchlik mentioned the little k vans, which are Yep. Four seat and maybe even six seat, people movers, that have the same sort of, same dimensions, but it's just maximizing seating within it, and it looks like a van. This would limit you from using that or registering that as a farm truck. You could still register that as pleasure car for on road use. So it just separates the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It separates just that piece.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Because I can see in this these little gate things, if you're an organic vegetable farmer that's going to the farmer's market, one of these would be great. We've got them.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Exactly doing that.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And you Yeah. And you could I think here, you could call if you have the eight k vehicle where it's you know, the front seats and the back is enclosed but for storage, that would fall within the design, used, or maintained primarily for transportation property.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So I think we're ready. I don't hear any opposition to this.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the next section has also changed. So we Okay. This has struck the 55 mile an hour limitation. Yep. So if you have a k vehicle that can do 80, you can take it on the interstate. If you have a k vehicle that cannot do the minimum speed on the interstate, you cannot go on the interstate. But it would say that a k vehicle registered as a pleasure car would be subject to all the provisions applicable to pleasure cars. K vehicle registered as a farm truck would be subject to all the provisions applicable to farm trucks, and then it prohibits the traffic committee or municipalities from adopting any rules that would have the effect of prohibiting a k vehicle from being operated in the same manners or locations as either a pleasure car or farm truck as applicable. So you can have a universal pleasure car standard. So for example, you can close a street to vehicles like they do on Church Street in Burlington, and that could apply to all of them. But you couldn't just say, no k vehicles here, but we're gonna let other vehicles in. Does that make sense? So it just prevents you from

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Both.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Creating creating a a way around the law where individual municipalities could create a patchwork of where you can't have a cave in. So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just a quick question. Just about safety. So pleasure of ours, I presume, have more safety requirements than farming.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So with the inspections, there are different

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I mean, you don't have to tell me the differences because I'm sure there's a lot of them, but just is that accurate to say? Farm

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: trucks are limited in where they can be operated and how they can be operated.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But are there safety improved? Like, are are the safety regulations higher for the

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The inspection is the same process.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. Same safety and valves and

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So they're still looking at the equipment.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And these yeah. Again, these are 25 year old vehicles or or older. So, you know, think trucks from the nineties and cars from the nineties. Think of what you had there, and these have those sort of safety features based on the regulations in Japan at the time, generally. So most of these vehicles are Japanese Right. In origin.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But they have seat belts.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right? They have seat belts. Yeah. They they may not have the crumple zone that was required at that time, and they're lightweight vehicles. So they were certified under, as a JDM, I think, not under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. Okay. So they're it's a little bit different, but the federal law allows them to be imported if they're at least 25 years old. Okay. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So I'm gonna So now we're this word misses in.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is there anything else that we

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We're gonna skip over inspection manual, and then that brings us to the last couple sections, which are what are being termed limited use specialty vehicles. This is the split ray Okay. And other vehicles like that. So we're adding a new definition of limited use special vehicle. Alright. This draft adds a new definition of limited use specialty vehicle, which is a motor vehicle that is either built by a manufacturer that manufactures not more than 325 vehicles per year for sale in The US, so that brings it under the federal, regulations related to limited manufacture, for an individual and not for resale. So built by an individual and not for resale. So this would be a kit car, that sort of thing. It is maintained solely for occasional transportation, including exhibitions, club activities, parades, tours, and other similar uses, and not used for daily transportation. And so that tracks our exhibition vehicles, which are, like, your antique model t's and model a's and other older cars that folks will keep. And they'll bring them out occasionally, but they're not using them as a daily driver. And then we're adding a new section or we the draft adds a new section. I'm really trying hard to stop saying we. No. So it's Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We gotta get through this. So

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: Yep.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And this would say that the commissioner can register not more than 20 limited use specialty vehicles per year. And then a vehicle that's been registered as a limited use specialty vehicle shall not be permitted to be registered as any other type of vehicle. The intent of that language is to prevent you from registering it as a limited use specialty vehicle in year one and then registering it as a pleasure car twenty years down the road if there's an exception for the once you get past, like, the emissions exceptions or something like that. The annual fee is the same as for exhibition cars, $26 per registration. And then a vehicle registered under that section could be used on public highways, again, in the exhibitions, etcetera, and then for occasional transportation of passengers or property not to exceed one day per week. So you can take it out on Sunday drives. And I did use the public highways language to avoid limiting or having this be be able to be read to, like, with something like the split rate limit someone using it out of track day or something like that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So why would we, in this, have a not a lower number for the manufacturer that, manufactures the vehicles? The 325 versus the 20, why

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the the 325 tracks with the federal exception that was enacted in, 2015 for the low volume motor vehicle manufacturers. K. And so that is just tracking that number. The limited registrations in Vermont would allow the manufacturer to sell cars in other throughout the country. Up to 20. But in in Vermont, you can register up to 20, and that could be a few kit cars. It could be Okay. One or two of these specialty manufactured vehicles, etcetera. But it all it means that there's

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That it but what it basically means is they can't sell more than 20 a year any place.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: In Vermont. K. They can so your Roth Speed could still sell cars for registration in other states, and they they can figure that out, but they can't have more than like, they could sell register up to 20 of their cars a year in Vermont. But if there are other folks registering these specialty vehicles, for example, say you buy a a Ren Sport Porsche or something like that, which is another resto mod, you could you could reg that would count against the 20 limit for the state. So the registration limit is all of these cars for the state per year, and it gets to the next section where on inspections, the proposal is to do safety inspections, but not emissions inspections on these. And so you will likely want a reaction from ANR on that.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So just one quick question. Yep. So reading this, they can manufacture and register up to 20 cars In Vermont. In Vermont.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So they can sell them. They can sell? They so they can sell them in Vermont. Okay. They can register up to 20 in Vermont. They could manufacture and then sell and register other states. Yep. So you deliver the car flatbed to Florida or California. Other states that allow these cars to be registered, they can do that within that state's law. But the 03/2025 is tracking we're just trying to define these manufacturers consistent with the low volume motor vehicle manufacturers provision that was enacted in federal law for the purposes of emissions and other certifications that they have to do federally. And then the registration in Vermont, and this tracks what some other states do, is they limit the registrations of these vehicles in their state per year so that the impact on state emissions and so forth is kept at a relatively de minimis level or minimal level. Okay. Yeah. So

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: do I I remember if they had a problem with titling these things with that. Either that's not a problem or this doesn't

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So this I I am not sure what impact this will have on titling the vehicles. This is the language I was asked by the chair to work with Justin Johnson, is the lobbyist who was in here on this to come up with language, and this is what we came up with. I've deliberately been silent on the federal emissions because Vermont can't change the federal or California emission standards. So they'll still have to comply with those if they want it to be registered for street use. They could still sell a car that's a track car.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I have an issue of not getting a title for these manufactured

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: don't know that there is to us. Another year if there is. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: And, yeah, I would

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is specifically calling out that you can register it.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. That's fine. And I guess for the mission's inspection. Yeah. Yeah. Now why we do? Because we already have the number of years, sixteen years. But if it's an older vehicle, which I assume it's still be an older vehicle, it can have to remade it. It's already. One

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: of the things that we saw if you you had a chance to read some or all of the report on the specialty vehicles. Is so, there are different pathways already for them to get a VIN on these cars. And with the emissions, there are various requirements, that are already out there under either federal or California law. So you can have, for example, a compliant engine, an exhaust system, but it has to have all the components, so they have to be installed in a certain way. We can't change that for compliance purposes. Or there there are other ways they can do the certification. They're a third party lab, so that I understand that's very expensive. Okay. But then I've deliberately left the language silent because Vermont, our DMV, no matter what we want, we can't change those certifications. We have to follow either the EPA or the California certifications. Okay.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Why is that because we want this to be movable.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. No. But what this is doing is it would take them out of the emissions inspection, And I can't speak to what impact that might have on our state implementation plan or set up or etcetera. So, you know, this is where you'll there's language here for a reaction from ANR and from DMV.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. So And it does say, the commissioner systems commissioner not more than. What do we think? We've been around this one.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. I think it for me, it satisfies all the questions we had before. As long as they can get a Vermont title. Right. And that's what they wanted to, you know, have a Vermont BIN number, whatever, if that's the thing.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think we've heard from the representative for the No. I that they're good with this. Yeah. I'm sure they'll come back.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Sure. I'm sure they'll put a VIN number on it too now that they can Yeah. Actually register it. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We kept okay to go with this. Yep.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: Alright.

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: The

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: last section is the effective dates, and the only different effective dates are the ID sections for the kidneys. Alright. Thank you for bearing with me.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thanks for

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: your work.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Out there. That

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: was It's

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a short 38 pages. So I think we're shorter than last year.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: K. Well, we're not done yet. Let's work on quality. You know, we we are gonna have to do it. We'll deal with inspections. Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Could you check and see

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: if there's any active volcanoes?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. There are not, but we do have a we do have a where the Connecticut River is.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We've got

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: somebody to come on. Yeah. That's a whole different

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If she could wait, then we'll do her after the next one because we've got a gap from 10:30 to 11:30. Oh. So if that

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Where do She she stepped out. So we're still alive. Alright.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You've got three minutes to get right in here now.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Do we want do you want me to come and see?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. We'll wait every three minutes. It just

[Matt Cota (industry representative)]: What if you're waiting?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is this We've got two bills to take up.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Two bills that are on the wall. Our first witness is

[Matt Russo (Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV)]: not

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Us? Our first witness is not around one.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Martin, we've got what I thought was we let the person that's gonna be on the screen go because they're at 10:15, and then we'll we'll go find Martin.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: It's also can can we go off line for second? We can. Let's see if you were made. Oh, can I can I see you in the box?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Hang on. Let's that's oh, no.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Alright. Got a quorum. I think he does the other day. And who

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Good point.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Do you

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: wanna