Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Live. I

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: know, but

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: This is Senate Transportation, and we're resuming our testimony. And we have Kayla Grant from the Public Transit Agencies Association, and you're on.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: Thank you. For the record, Caleb Grant from Rural Community Transportation, chair of the Vermont Public Transportation Association. Today, addressing a $800,000 request in the Budget Adjustment Act to address losses from the Medicaid NEMT or non emergent Medicaid with transportation through Diva for budget year 2025. Just as a reminder, we are on year five of a three year contract that we responded to an RFP with Diva in 2021. So you can imagine how much has changed in that time period. The legislature does have a track record of intervening to address losses with the NEMT program, 2023 and 2024. Last year, we were optimistic and tracking well, but trips increased significantly through the remainder of the year, so we did experience pretty significant losses. Typically, when transportation agencies face losses in the Medicaid program, we go to cash reserves. The way the NEFT program works, it is a per member per week distribution, but that doesn't account for the number of trips or the cost of those trips. So there is a a track record. We were optimistic in 2025 and did not seek an adjustment in the Budget Adjustment Act. This is to kind of rectify those losses, and it would be a $800,000 BAA line that would go directly to Diva, and then they would utilize increased payments to distribute that to the public transportation providers. There is language in the house version. There is a slight revision that came through senate appropriations yesterday, which did a slight adjustment to the language, change it from, supplemental to increased payments. That's really semantic and really just speaks to the mechanism by which this would be distributed, but I'm happy to answer any questions, but just a reminder, this is under the DIVA program as opposed to a B TRAN program. So BPTA is the contract the current contract holder for the NEMT program.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So the $800,000 is good for you to get, and it meets your full deficit?

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: So the $800,000 addresses our 2025 deficit. We do have projections on '26. We remain optimistic. Historically, members of the senate transportation or or finance committee have put in incremental increases to address future shortfalls, whether that wanted to be addressed, but at this time, we're just seeking those $800,000, which are realized losses for 2025, which we are currently just carrying by diminished cash reserves.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, I'm personally very supportive of this being in the house, VAA version, and I don't know.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: These three, this is a group, this is the conversation for your other room, but Right. So I don't wanna wait.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I would just say that there has been no attempt to, but I thought that we should have be able to stand up on the floor and There's take an update so everybody on our committee would be interested. We spent quite a lot of time on and will continue to. And I'm supportive. Yep. Yeah. This is just to give the update. Go ahead. Good.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Could could you talk about the little tweak we did down the hall? I don't recall. Maybe I stepped out

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: of it, but

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I don't recall. Was it in you said appropriations. Was it in finance that they the senate?

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: No. It was it was from

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We had a tweak of the language.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: It was a it was a tweak of the language. This just spoke specifically to it was part of a larger tweaking of the bill, and this just spoke to our part specifically. And if if you see the language adjustment, it just changes supplemental to increase.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Okay. Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Which was meaningful for someone. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes. It was. I think that didn't that come from finance?

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: It did.

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: Yes, sir.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And so when That's the way we got Aggression was in it, and he had the list of things that he went through on it, so I can see where you might have missed it when he did his list.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: Yeah. And it it speaks specifically to the mechanism by which DIVA can ensure that the VPPA members receive those funds. Perfect. Thank you

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you. For the update.

[Unidentified DMV official]: I appreciate it, and thank you for your support.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You'll be back.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Looking forward.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I don't know how you

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: get your job done. If you can't hear it. I get it.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: Well, the the benefit of our expansive service territory is that I go down to Montpellier's, and I immediately either go to Saint Albans or Morrisville. Typically, I don't follow the Newport location up for this trip to to more or to Montpelier, but it does give me an excuse.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Kind of necessary. With the universe.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: You know, I find that increasingly every

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: day. Thank you. We are about five minutes early, but I oh, you're where's your?

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: You just stepped

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: out for a for a brief meeting. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: if he was here, we put him in the chair and we'd get going. What's the Could you grab his presents? Speech? No. No. We're a little bit we're a little ahead, but we I figured we might as well keep going. Because we, as a committee, need to take a break at eleven for about fifteen minutes. Absolutely. And you're here. So section 18? Yeah. Section 18. I don't think you touched that. So

[Unidentified DMV official]: we've had some update update language, and I know last time there was concerns on the, I guess, legality or or just having our counsel come in and chat, and I wanna make sure if Matt Neso Patrick Neso comes in as well. So this is we're not really trying to go outside any normal parameters. This is a lot like when we suspend the hours of service. When we suspend the hours of service for trucks that go across New Hampshire to haul salt, for the propane trucks, it's the same decoration that is assigned to the commissioner of DMV from the governor's office to make those determinations. This is following that same of rubric, if you will. We still would work in concert with FMCSA who, when we do these decorations, are notified and if they have why not if they have to go in or anything or changes. We we do work with them behind the scenes before these

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: are immediately issued. So it's not

[Unidentified DMV official]: stepping out out of bounds with any federal regulations on this. So I know I was concerned the last time we were in here,

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: but the two more experts on this are are here. Do you have any?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I want you to know that we we in the last forty eight hours, they've imported more from more chairs into the end because somebody was stealing our evidence. And at least we've got seats for both of you, which is good. I appreciate the chairs without my arms on.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, we've had

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: a terrible time keeping chairs. People have been we get chairs in the room, and they seem to migrate someplace. Operations. You can both give your name and.

[Angeline James, Assistant Attorney General (DMV)]: So, good morning, members of the committee, Chair Westman. My name is Angeline James. I'm an Assistant Attorney General for the Department of Motor Vehicles, and I need to, as a caveat, warn you and remind you that the attorney general's office has no position on the DMV miscellaneous bill on the language I'm discussing here today. Okay. So Good

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: morning, senators. My name is Matt Finesso. I'm the chief of safety for the Department of Motor Papers. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the

[Angeline James, Assistant Attorney General (DMV)]: commissioner asked that we take a look at the language that was originally submitted. We've made some changes to the language to provide a little more authority to make all of you more comfortable. And we are relying on 49 CFR 390.5 for some of that language. You like me to Pardon? Oh, no. Was just gonna say, are you is this on our website already, the amended suggested language? No. It is not. Oh.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Do you have the language that you could share?

[Angeline James, Assistant Attorney General (DMV)]: I can read it to you. I apologize. I didn't bring enough copies. Read it all easily. Well, we can have

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: If you could explain what it does and Sure. Give us a little

[Angeline James, Assistant Attorney General (DMV)]: Okay. So, what we did was we went back and looked at the definition of emergency in 49 CFR 390.5, and we also looked at the definition of a direct assistance when individuals are providing assistance during an emergency, and we also looked at an emergency condition requiring immediate response, and revised the language to allow Well, I'd like to read it. Is that okay?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, yeah. So,

[Angeline James, Assistant Attorney General (DMV)]: the language right now, as we are proposing, reads for subsection D 41, oh, section forty one zero seven. The provisions of this section during a weather emergency, as defined in 49 CFR 390.5, for an emergency condition requiring immediate response, also pursuant to 49 CFR three ninety point five, a declaration issued by the governor or the governor's appointed representative, an employee of a state agency, or a Vermont municipality providing direct assistance, as defined by 49 CFR three ninety point five, may specifically, if specifically set forth in the governor's emergency declaration, operate a motor vehicle with a weight of 26,001 pounds or more, without being required to hold a commercial driver's license, as long as the emergency is ongoing. Great. The language also does state that an individual operating a vehicle pursuant to the provisions of this subsection shall be required to hold a valid operator's license issued pursuant to Chapter Nine of this title or the applicable law of another state. So, that is what we are proposing and we can obviously get copies for all of the.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, thank you. I think you definitely addressed, I mean, I want our legislative council to take a look and make sure that it aligns properly, but I like that you narrowed what a weather emergency is because I think that was our main concern. But perhaps I missed it, maybe it's just later on in your change. Do you still have to have a medical card? So, you, there are provisions where as long as the individual is operating in intrastate and they are exempt, they do not need to have the medical card. They went to New Hampshire with it. They, that would be a problem. Okay. I understand.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Oh, and

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: also governmental vehicles in general, like even our our current VTrans employees who drive trucks now just for regular maintenance, they're already exempt from meeting medical requirements as part of the federal regulation. So the only time, like like our counsel said, they would need it is if they were doing something that was not

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: government work.

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: It's outside the purview of government work.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I actually didn't have strong feelings about the medical card piece. I think there was confusion on the committee about, like, who gets them in general, who already has them, and would this just be another barrier to someone in an emergency situation? I can understand why you took it out.

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: And it's a very narrow bandwidth of just employees of state government or municipal government under these rare circumstances. And if, you know, and and the federal regulations of 03/2005, when you look at the definition of emergency, it's very clear that it's tornadoes, hurricanes. It lists it lists out the the many options that it could be.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Does it include, like, fire?

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: Fire. It does. Yeah. And and makes it very clear it's for the purposes of preservation of life and property. So I I can think that this would be used on, you know, a rare occasion, but we have seen, unfortunately, you know, businesses where the problem could have been used.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Every year on July, this this will be used.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just a Oh, okay. Pattern and

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Does if they were to take those trucks out of the interstate, does it bump up against federal law at all requirements?

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: No. It's the intended use at the moment of the vehicle in question. So, again, with, just like our our current operating principle or the interstate itself, there's sometimes this misnomer that being up on the interstate makes it interstate trip, and interstate in the definition of what we're referring to means from one state to another state, one country to another state, interstate itself Okay. As necessary. Unless we were wish to put restrictions of our own further restrictions, I don't

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: think would be necessary. So the CDL requirements are even on a federal highway are our requirements. Well, they're federal. They're federal requirements. But so as long as they're not I that's my concern is if they're bumping up against any federal We're getting your testimony that on the interstate would be

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: a problem, but you're saying that's not.

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: I I don't, I don't know why the interstate would be a problem because the early states and our regular state highways are treated equally the same now as they are. The difference of it's semantics of the term interstate commerce or interstate travel. Yeah. A lot of times, for example, we'll get folks that will come to us to say, I can't be up on the interstate because I don't have a medical certificate. And the answer to that is, well, you're not going from one state to another in interstate commerce. And that's where the the miss the missing overcomes.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead. Thank you.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So thank you very much and the answer is much more clear and I just want to confirm that I believe it said that the governor's actual declaration would include this authority for the state and for municipalities. Well,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: declaration would have to specify what it is and what is being waived.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And I think We

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: have to clarify that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right, and I think that's really important. And so then we should just double check with the LCT. Yeah, we'll come back.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: PLTC did raise the issue of that if someone removed this debt, the insurance issue, and and they did raise that. This doesn't address that, but we may not be able to get to everything in this. But they did raise that concern in addition, so we will with them too. Thank you. Thank you. I do we appreciate you helping us with this because we really wouldn't want, in the case of a fire or I have a community in my district, Johnson, their fire department and their town clerk's office are in have flooded in the last two big floods. And if somebody I look. It it is trying to move a fire truck out of the way. I think we all we all agree that that's important. Yes. Yes. Thank you.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Alright. And that's my yeah. Close on sections. I think that was Okay.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: Sir. All right, Matt Russo. I'm Deputy Commissioner for DNB, and we are discussing K trucks, also known as Japanese mini trucks, which seems to be a hot topic.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: Prior policy and procedure was that a Japanese mini truck would be inspected. If the customer had a valid inspection, it would present at the time of registration, and we would register the mini truck. That remains the same. Nothing has changed. I believe the miscommunication was one off, maybe a couple here or there with as far as getting it inspected. Just like anything else. A large trailer that you make at home is gonna be inspected before you can get a VIN and a a registration. Same with a homemade vehicle or a street rod. The same goes for many trucks, just like any other vehicle. The only difference is that you're getting it inspected first to verify that everything is in place, and follows the inspection manual in order to get your registration. And that's the current policy.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: No. No. No. You go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Well, well, thank you. I appreciate that. And while I also respect you saying it's a one off, there is multiple people who've reached out just through the grapevine of hearing about this. So I do think there is a lack of uniformity of understanding this policy. So I've worked with our counsel, Damian Leonard, to draft language that reflects what we see in other states and also officially makes mini trucks, something that we define in Vermont state statutes. Sounds very exciting. So I'm wondering what is your receptiveness to having a clear set of guidance in our statutes on this topic?

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: Well, think it

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: would help. I think right now it's we've sent out communication to staff saying this is what prior what was given to you prior for procedure and policy. That has not changed. This is what we require. It was bulleted in our employee bulletin just to make sure that everybody's on the same page. That went out to all staff. It's there's nothing in statute that says that we can't do that. There's no reason why we can't register them. There's no reason why we can't inspect them. That remains unchanged. So as far as putting it into statute, I say we're neutral.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I would feel better if you could take your language and put it with them outside Okay. Of the then if we can get you all in agreement about the language, that, you know, we'll bring it back to the committee and let the committee decide. But, you know, from my vantage point, if you can all agree outside of the room, I think that would be great.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I'll send if the Damian has language drafted, so I'll send it to him.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: That would be helpful. Go ahead.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: And I just wanted to make sure that there isn't an inspection problem. So I thought I heard from somebody that it took it to get, whether that DMV to get a register, was at the inspection station. It could have been emissions because they would meet the aid requirement not I to need don't know, we don't require an airbag or inspection, so I don't know what it might have been, but wanna make sure.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: There might have been other caveats. I'm not sure. Yeah. Glass thickness for your windshield, for instance. Right. I'm not sure, but I'm sure there were other small it

[Matt Finesso, Chief of Safety, Vermont DMV]: was definitely not the patients.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. For sure. So if I don't know if your language answers that, but maybe we don't need to. Maybe it was just one inspection station. I never seen them. Was worried about inspecting it because it was like, well, this doesn't meet federal requirements, so should I inspect it? That's fair. Also, I wonder if there's any issue about always using the trucks because there are vans and even cars

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: that meet this requirement. I don't know. Japanese mini truck is very narrow. Right. I mean your vehicles. Right. Right. Yeah.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I know we had one of the little delivery vans. So I don't know.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'm gonna send it to everyone too because there is some there is a little it it's the language is based off of, I believe, what they have in I wanna say we went with Virginia is what

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: they to the used trucks.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: They had they call them mini trucks.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: So I don't know if we need, there's a question for Damien if that's a term of art and it includes a van or a car.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'm gonna send it to him because it seems to be. Mini trucks is defined pursuant to subdivision 89, and then it basically is it means a motor vehicle that is designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property that has four wheels, an engine displacement of six six six hundred and sixty cc or less, an overall length of a 130 inches. You get what I'm saying? Like, could that be a van?

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. It'd be

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: a goal. Yes.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: With that with that definition of something, it could be

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: It could be a lot of things. It goes on to the size. I I do think we should have that discussion. Yeah.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: This is for

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: transporting part of it that I wonder why we need to add in there.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: There are quite a few states that do register these vehicles with certain caveats, not on a highway for some states, only on in certain transports for some states. I was on the subcommittee for an Ambitus, so I do have a of background on this, especially from other states.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Are you guys recommending eliminating the registration?

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: I think I'd like to I I think we need to do some more research on that. I don't I I know that there are many trucks that can go

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: up 60 to 70 miles an hour. Right. The one customer we got was like, I can go 70 miles an hour, but I don't I don't

[Unidentified DMV official]: really Right. Is it worth can you actually go down? Is

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: it safe? I don't know. Having other big vehicles driving past you at 75 miles Yeah. Per but we can

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: move. It to does limit 55 miles per hour. It does actually

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: get rid

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: of So some of

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: that's yeah, I hope it's a more permissive, but it also allows for the traffic committee to have a have a decision around ordinances for municipalities. Okay. So, yeah, or legislative body of a municipality. That some, I guess, places maybe have one.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Oh, like municipalities.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. So your select board can decide to limit their use as well.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Honestly, golf carts are a thing. I've been in situations where people wanna drive golf carts everywhere and use it for their regular transportation. Well, no, but four wheelers are a separate thing. That has its own issues, I think as specific as we can be is really important. And there are some, I mean we have to care about safety, that's our number one, so there are vehicles that should not be on the interstate, and I would say golf carts should not be on

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the interstate.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Hopefully they're not allowed

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: right

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: now. They're not. Okay.

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: Good. At least the gas that I like here because there are

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: there we do register hybrid electric vehicles

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: Yeah.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Which are the bigger electric golf

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: carts with with restrictions. Golf carts are are not registered or not. Okay.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But the electric golf carts cannot go on interstate.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right? Correct. Good. So speaking of different vehicles, if you're in rural England and you're on the M roads and it's a trip when you see their tractors that are geared differently than ours. And there's a tractor, big, you know, a 160 horse tractor going 50. So they would but the tractors in Britain are geared and it's like, wow, look at that. Three

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: miles.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You know, it would be good to get some language that you could all agree on outside, absolutely. Particularly when you go on social media now, which I don't encourage anyone because you impaired information offered on social media, but there is a bunch on social media that really is quite conflicting about whether you can register or not here.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: We can clarify.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And if and if we and if we can create less confusion, I think that's probably good. Great. As long as we can all do it on the average.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And so I sent it to you. I don't have your email, but

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: I'll get all of that. I'll get

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think that this point, is Dan's not coming till 11:25, is he?

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: 11:20.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, no. 11:25. Right before Logan, right.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. He reached out to him. See if he's I don't know

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: if he's enough. I mean, he came out from him. He was pretty fast.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And my plan will be at that to take another fifteen or twenty minutes and fill up if you can. The treasurer is having that press conference off of my brain.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And that's what time, sir? Eleven. That's eleven. Okay.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Thank you, Sandra. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you. So still

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: be here back here at 11:30.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes. Okay. Yep.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: We

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: have. I will tell you, I have a letter that I'm signing on behalf of the Committee for Anthrax. Good. It was in the news. Yeah. I wanted to make sure that Dan before I signed it, because I haven't signed it, but before I sign it, I wanted Dan to just give us a two minute this is what it is.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Great. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Because I saw on the news that you and Matt had signed it, so I was like, oh, I wonder about that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. Like, it's that's what it looks like. Oh, great. It's not signed.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But I I wanted to before I signed it on behalf of the committee, I wanted Dan to give you a two minute update. Awesome. Yeah. The No.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Good. Because I was gonna sign one for them if I I didn't know if we had time, so I'm really glad that it's much better to sign it for the committee. He Well, some If

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: he can't come to the next ten minutes to to do that, then it will be 11:20 that I'd like you back here. Okay. But if he is he

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: No. I he was so fast up here.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Where where was he in the news?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: It was NBT Digger. Cool. But yes.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: We're still

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: They're gonna be oh, you're

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: still alive.

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: We're still alive.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh. Yep. That range

[Rep. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: is fine.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Mine.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'll talk trains. But they're saving twenty minutes is my understanding because they don't have to switch the engines, and then you you know, if you've taken the Vermonter, there's this weird stop, I think, in, like, New Haven. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: They it's a grant they've applied for, and we're endorsing the grant. I think that's And they

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: text us that and then Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And then, Matt Walker and Richard Westman had said that they were going to sign on. Good. I'll send it to you because I was I just delighted to see think

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I said I was gonna get to draft the language to do it and that I would take it to the committee, but I don't purely care as long as because I haven't signed it yet.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, that's

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: let's see if I can find it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. I'll I'll be able to find it. Better pictures.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yes, both chairs, Walker are oh, it says they claim to send the letter as an act is not that wordy.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And it hasn't been passed. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I do have the letter for me, if you want me to post it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. It's here. Right. Yeah. Can give a minute. As soon as as soon as hear from Dan, I'm on back. Can you hear from Dan, then post it? Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I need to have a different back. I'm on Digger. It's go to final reading.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, it's final reading.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: It's the one with the cars with the Hunza.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, that was something else. Yes. I'll send his pic. Yeah. That was a different

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, he's here. He's here. He's here.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Alright. Dan's coming.

[Caleb Grant, Rural Community Transportation; Chair, Vermont Public Transportation Association]: So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: that was in the, oh, yeah. The inspection. I love the cars. I didn't know that was about trains too.

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: Am I there? I think I am.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: They drafted the letter for me to sign on behalf of the committee. Can you give us the five or the two minute version of what we're endorsing?

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: Sure, absolutely. A couple of years ago, just the background, couple of years ago, there was a federal grant that gave Amtrak a bunch of money to buy new rolling stock, new locomotives, new coaches, things like that. So basically that grant covered what was in place today for equipment. So basically one for one replacement. What Amtrak's trying to do now is they're trying to buy additional rolling stock to have in inventory as replacements. And also there are some services that are looking to expand in the next few years that would like to add to the rolling stock order. And that's what that is. So we kind of support that, but we don't want to fund it. So what we said was we'll support it, but we're not going to add any state match to that. If we ever needed some of that additional rolling stock in the future, we would negotiate the lease for that at that time.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So what enhancement of service would this allow for Amtrak?

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: Well, we don't have so right now, Vermont doesn't have a need for that currently. But if we ever, say, wanted to extend the Valley Flyer into Vermont, Some point down the road, we may ask for more additional equipment because it would need more equipment for that service. If we wanted to add another, say another Ethan Allen service, a second one or another Vermonter service, a second one, we would need to negotiate that. But that would be the only reason Vermont would need it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. So this would allow Vermont to consider in the future if it was inappropriate, the ability to expand service.

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: Correct. Now, other thing that Amtrak isn't saying out loud, but when all the existing equipment gets replaced, they're still gonna have all the equipment we're using today. They're gonna have spare equipment that if something broke down or whatever, they would still have some additional they're not going to retire everything that they replace one for one. So there's a couple of options in the future if we want to do expanded service.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Go ahead. So my understanding, Dan, is perhaps I'm misinformed, is that we're gonna get the Aerotrain on the Toronto potentially through this money. Is that correct?

[Matt Russo, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont DMV]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Where you're This going

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: particular grant doesn't change what we're already getting. We already, that money is already in hand. The order has already been placed. We have replacement equipment coming for both the Ethan Allen and the Vermonter already. This grant that they're asking for now is additional federal dollars to buy additional equipment beyond what's in place now.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay. I understand. Okay. Thank you. Go ahead. So

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I thought that we did have, mean, I understand what you're saying and I think it's an easy yes to support Amtrak in this effort because we want them to be able to provide additional service when we need it. But relative to and I don't think that the state needs to provide any funding now, but when we talk about future service my understanding is that our current situation does there are days when the train, there isn't capacity on the Vermonter, then there's other issues on the Ethan Allen, so I don't want folks to get the idea that we couldn't be helped by additional train sets, but I'm not advocating for that right now, but there are times that, we could use the, space, the capability.

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: Yeah, that it's not well, it's very it's more rare than not. It's holiday weekends, things like that, that we have capacity issues on a normal, you know, calendar day. We don't have that problem. But again, I think freeing up existing rolling stock when the new rolling stock comes in, I think Amtrak is going to be able to, you know, add a coach here or there, know, when the new stuff gets replaced using the existing stuff. The other thing I wanted to point out is the existing grant that we ordered, original order, the one for one replacement, that was 100% federal dollars. This grant that Amtrak is applying for that you're supporting is an eightytwenty, 80% federal, 20% Amtrak. So there is match that Amtrak is going to have to put up for that rolling stock. I sort of argued with the committee on why didn't, why wouldn't they go to the hill and say, if this was this important, why wouldn't they go for the additional rolling stock at a 100% grant? And they didn't do that. They're using an existing EightytwentyNOFO that's out there now, but.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: It's interesting.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Grace? I think we have enough, Dan. We appreciate the fact that you came early and brought us up to date. Thank you.

[Dan Delabruere, Director of Rail & Aviation, VTrans]: Thank you.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thanks.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: At this point, I think we were back here at 11:30. Logan will come in and we'll finish our morning then, but that gives us a chance to hop in to Great. Listen to a license plate idea. Yeah. Can you take