Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Is Friday, January 30. This is Senate Transportation. We are here with the traffic court update from Terry Carson. And I think I'm gonna drop it off and let you go ahead.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And thank you for his cookies.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Welcome. You, senator. And and Terry Carsohn, State Court Administrator. And is Joanne?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes.

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: Joanne? I'm here.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Hi Joanne, thanks so much. Is the coordinator for different courts, including the judicial bureau. And knows the data much better than me, but I wanted to at least just give the basics for the materials that are in front of you. Joanne and I had come on January 13 to provide information regarding unregistered vehicles and speeding violations. And in the course of that presentation, there were some additional data points that were requested. So the supplemental information is basically to respond to request. And I'm happy to just go through a brief link that would be helpful to you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That would be great.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Great. Oh, did you turn it

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: over to She has to go. She has to introduce a bill.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Okay. Hold on. The first date of placement was requested was display of the license plate. And this is during the past ten years so that it would be roughly sort of the COVID era in between. As we noted last time, were definitely fewer tickets issued during the COVID years. And in some instances the numbers have gone back up to pre COVID levels and a lot of instances they have not. For the display of the number of plates, you'll see that in 2016, May. And at this point we're roughly a little less than half of that, a little more than half of that at February. So that's the number of tickets issued for license plates display. And within that, and I think one of the data points was whether or not there were both the rear and the front license plates displayed. It's a smaller number and this number is within the number for the overall display of number of plates that somebody had asked for that. So just to show you that the number of tickets issued, it's gone down in the last ten years. The number for the display both has gone up. But it's subsumed within the other numbers. And then the next data point, expired inspections. And that has gone way down. And I'm just guessing, to me that's been, a law enforcement might see a tag on your window that shows the month that's due, but apparently they're issuing far cure. Almost nothing. Aspiring inspection. Ticket.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. It's

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: statewide. Yes. Although I talked to a sheriff's. They were like, we can't see it. You know, like, before that

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Oh.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: The the ticket in up by the rearview mirror that was colored, they could see it. But now they're like they're all yellow.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: When did they move that?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. That sticker change for

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Pretty recently.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Was pretty recent.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I remember.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Because my my now, I didn't notice.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Sticker on the.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Pretty sure it was when I was here. I

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: feel like we talked about it, but it may have just been implemented.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, it wasn't the most recent.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I was just trying to figure that out.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, connect it to the 2020, yeah.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: They went way down during the COVID period and then have stayed down and decreased. Sorry

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: to go back. The number of plates in the display rear bolts,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: what's the difference between those?

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: I guess, John can probably explain, you're supposed to have them on both, so it might be either that they didn't have the rear plate or the other category I guess, or the violation is that they don't have both.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: But one thing says rear slide, while the other one says display of plates.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Right. That would probably to violation. Joanne, do you

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: do believe the first chart is the front plate. The next chart is failed to to display the rear or both.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Oh, okay. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's the one thing that published. That's that's going up.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. And it seems like I see more of those. And maybe that I think around this twenty twenty one, twenty two was also we made it easier to print your own temporary.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So you started seeing people print those out and then just keep those for way past the expiration date. Oh. I think that's been something that happened, unfortunately. It's easier to enforce because it's it's so obvious when they don't, hopefully.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Were there any other questions on that or I can I guess for the things the expired inspection, we talked about that, and that's interesting because I guess I noticed the same thing? I don't pay attention to it before because it's almost, if I remember, it's like a dark number on a dark sticker. Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: If you wanted people not to notice it, we did a really good job.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: The next data point, it's called obstruction of windows, that must be the tinted window. That actually is higher now than it was ten years ago. The number of tints. Two sixty nine statewide. And then the last would be operating without insurance. And I think the mention was made that normally that wouldn't even be ascertained unless and until you were stopped for something and they ask you for your insurance. But that number is down.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It is down, but it's not

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: crazy

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: down. That's

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: a percentage, but it's still a thousand.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: So those were the additional data points. Then someone had also asked if it was a municipal ticket versus non municipal, how was the $162 average ticket price divided? And it looks as if it's divided up exactly the same except if it's within a municipality then $87.5 roughly half goes to the municipality that's outside then it goes to the state transportation fund. Can I say that and I apologize? Joanne, I should clarify. I say within a municipality but maybe it's whether it's a municipal law enforcement officer that issues it? If they issue

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: a local ordinance violation.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Oh, okay.

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: They issue it as a local if they adopt the state rules and issue it as a local municipal ordinance.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So that would be the municipal distribution that's accurate.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So they're, like, only, local speeding enforcement?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Local speeding enforcement if

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: they did, a local basic rule speeding violation.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Right. I when my town has a contract with the sheriff, the sheriff will send you over for speeding in the town. The town would get that $87.50. But, otherwise, if it's if it's tinted windows, this municipality wouldn't get any money even if they did it in the past. That

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: is accurate. They would not get it. It's it's all based on how they charge it, the violation code where the money is distributed. So if they issue it as, like,

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: a local basic rule violation, it would go to the municipality. You're correct. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: it really has nothing to do with who writes the ticket?

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: No.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And because my I have one town that has a contract with state police, and they do some of the municipality enforcement. So that would go under the municipal stuff.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Can a municipal officer write a ticket for a state violation? I assume so because they're sworn officers.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Can Yeah. Is that is that the case, Joe? Yes.

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: As long as they're sworn officers, that's fine.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's a good question. I doubt it happens very much, but

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: it's good that it can't. Every once in a while I've seen the Waterbury Police out on the interstate. So, and, you know, you've got Route 100 running through town and and Route 2. So I suspect if they write a ticket on Route 2, you're in the Waterbury municipal, it probably goes it's not under the municipal, but if you are, you know, on on a side road or you're, you know, in Waterbury Center, not on the 100, it's probably municipal. Is that what you would think too?

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: That's my understanding, Joanne. Is that correct?

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: It all depends on what code they choose to charge the person. It all goes through the code.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So it follows the code that they put in, not where it is.

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: So it like in the town, the municipality, and it was a local officer, and they wrote it as a local ticket, and they've adopted that state speed limit, then, yes, it would go to the municipality.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: K. Do

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's interesting. I I I would have thought if it was on a state road, it would have but, anyways, that's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Do the I know this might not be a question for you all, but do officers all know about the revenue? Probably not. Right? I mean, that wouldn't be their job.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: They probably do. Yeah. When I was on the

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: select board when we talked to the sheriff department, they were very well, very well aware of that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So I'm sure the sheriff does because they go in different places. I'm just thinking about towns with police departments.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I'm pretty sure they do.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, and I would hope they would only be doing things that would benefit the municipality. Or when they could, I would hope that they would

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: choose that. The municipal code. Yes.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: That's where they're getting it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. I would hope that whatever gets done across the state was consistent from town to town.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes. And it's fair. Yes.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You know, whether you choose that it's a municipal officer writing the ticket so it would be municipal, or you do it by, it's a state highway, but it would be nice if we were clear it was consistent.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Much of, what amount of revenue is this? Because It might be going down a rabbit hole for something that's not that

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: It's about half the

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: ticket. Sorry, just total revenue.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: We do have that figure. Joanne, do you have any handy? Because we provided that in another data request for last year for example. What kind of impact is this having?

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: You talking about what we collected?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: We had been asked what was the percentage of collection. So I think, Joanne, if you have that figure, and I didn't bring that file with me. Were you part of that email stream? We can find it from someone else. Or I can No, it was a different committee that had asked. Joanne, were you part of that stream?

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: I'll look for it, Terry. I mean, was not part of that. I think Kelly was.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Oh, okay. Our finance department have looked at because they were interested in how much was collected from Alliance One. Far less revenue is collected now because there isn't the for policy reasons they changed that you had to in the past pay your tickets in order to get your license reinstated. And then they for policy reasons stop that. So there's less motivation to pay the fines. Well that's interesting. So somebody was asking, you know, what's the percentage? The tax refunds is a more effective way for collections and then there is the Alliance One, it's like a collection agency that write a letter and we have it broken down. I can find that data in the center

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: of the information. I do have some of that data, Terry, and I'll forward it to you. I'll find it, I know which one you're talking about.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Okay. Great. And I'll send that to Megan, I guess.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you. Sure.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: That led them to, that funded a number of programs and that was also what funded our tech fund. And why we had the last year been asked for the tech fund to be supplemented by additional funds because the traffic ticket revenue had gone down so much. Oh. Yeah. It was, for example, last year I think a total of 700, well the share that we got was 750,000 and that compared to over a million or twice that, say ten years ago. Just from the number of traffic ticket, the amount of traffic ticket revenue. That's interesting.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: So, perhaps the revenue in the last ten years. Yep.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: It actually just gives you the breakdown of where other people that domestic and sexual assault fund, victim compensation fund, it's contract constitution fund. They were all dependent on the ticket revenue as well.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Not really.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: In my shoes. For the non municipal. Not that in

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: technology for them.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: But I I can we we just gathered that so I can give you the That would be great. Sure. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: From a very high level, if I put every ticket that was written for everything, can we get broken up how much was state police, how much was, you know, DMV, how much is the municipals, how much is the sheriff's?

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: I'll find out. Joanne, do you know offhand if we would have the ability to run a report along those lines in terms of the ticket?

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: I think that would be Kelly, the finance. We'd have to check-in with Kelly. Right. Terry, I did find that email and I just forwarded it to you for the revenue collected.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I asked that because in all of these categories, almost all, and there's you brought in one or two today that weren't but there's a dramatic drop off in tickets for automobiles and vehicles totally. And it would be nice to see if there is a difference between the different enforcement areas.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Geographic areas or

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: no? It's the whole state, is it? Yeah. Is is the drop off in tickets across the board, municipal, sheriffs, and state police, Is it one area over another? If we're gonna hone in to ask the question policy wise, why is this happening? Is it everybody? Is it is it just Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Is it just on the interstates?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. You know, but, you know I think what we've seen is enforcement across the board for for vehicle violations is dramatically down. Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just the number versus the revenue.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. The the number well, and I think we started into this talking about safety.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is that? Yeah.

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: That would be accurate. The ticket filings are definitely down from COVID. That's when we saw a significant drop in all tickets in general.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, but they haven't really recovered across the board, and what it's across the board at every single level, it's one question. If it's, say, state police versus municipals, it's another. And the question is, who would we talk to about you know, we anecdotally have got reasons in here, you know, educate we're doing more education versus but we haven't really I don't think we have a real coherent answer from somebody about why. And Kelly, joined

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: reference is in our finance department, so that's where we've gotten the data on whether or not our data is broken down by whoever wrote the ticket. I can find out and let you know. Today I'll check. I just don't know if we have that. Otherwise, it would mean going in each ticket and seeing it and then Yeah. I again, know, I'm I'm just asking what you have in a broad view. Right. Yeah. We definitely have the number of tickets and I I I see put it in a more straight forward. This was kind of broken down based on how much was collected by alliance, how much by tax refunds but I'm looking at it on my phone and I'm afraid I'd I'm hesitant to give you numbers without making sure I'm giving you the correct numbers. Yep. But we can do that very quickly to give you the total Yep. For the amount that was collected anyway.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: For the for the state police? For Well, for tickets

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: total. And I'll have to check with the person in finance whether we can break it down by person who broke the ticket for a category. Right. Right. Roughly. And do all these get reported to national organizations? I mean, if requested, but I don't think we regularly give reports or if we're asked to give reports, do you know, Joanne, to any national entities?

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: Not that I'm aware of.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: We get public records requests recently. Maybe there has been a request from, you know, in that

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: was only looking to see if what we see in violations tracks nationally, and we are the best place to be able to compare what's happening here to national numbers.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, we should be able to find things like that. Mean, I know that towns need to report different things to the federal government to get certain grants and a lot of that is transportation. Oh.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, I just, I find it, it's disturbing.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Yeah. From a safety perspective and from a resident perspective.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, yes. We started out from the safety direction, but there is a revenue impact to this. And I think it would be nice to be able to figure out why is this happening and are we okay with that?

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Mhmm. It it may be connected to just, I know, challenges in terms of law enforcement With fewer personnel, they may

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: be prioritizing other areas. Well, and then the question, do do we have less off officers? You know, what does our staffing look like now versus ten years ago? And and and and that that's not a question that you can answer for us.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Well, do know just from our, the court security perspective, we definitely, there's been a decrease in the share of personnel who have historically provided all courthouse security. We've had to supplement it because there just are counties where they don't have enough sheriff personnel to land the courthouses. So we have court security officers or private security. So I know in the sheriff's department there definitely have been lower numbers. I'm gonna guess It municipal They're in. We, anecdotally, have So got all of it. You

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: how do we create culture and and you know, if it is personnel in that it's one answer. If it's we've chosen not to be on the highways, it's another answer, you know. You know, it's not as easy as just so it'd be nice to have a fuller picture.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Right. And if there are, for example, the sheriff's association or state troopers, they may would probably be the best answer in terms of the priority. Yep, but

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: that would come after we know. Is it because less tickets are going out from sheriff's offices, less tickets going out from the municipals, less tickets going out from the state police. You know, why is this happening and what's the answers to it?

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Well, I will get the numbers in terms of amount collected for tickets this past year and over ten years and whether or not we can differentiate among those numbers who wrote it or not. Would be great. The next time we'll have Kelly also participate in the link with Joanne so that you're getting more immediate information than what I'm able to provide.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, it doesn't hurt. You come in and you bring us cookies.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: But you don't have to.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Well

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes. That's absolutely true. You don't have to. But, you know, we all kinda like it.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: I figured at least something small that I can do to express appreciation because I look at what you all do, I mean, day in and day out, and

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: it's so remarkable. Is there anything else that we should be asking?

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Don't hesitate. If something comes to mind, feel free to email. We're right next door. I'll email Megan with the revenue numbers and whether we can differentiate. Hopefully, because I'm thinking if there are codes, that usually enables us to run a report. So if there's code that is specific to the type of person, we can.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. You.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: My pleasure. Thank you. You. See soon. See you, and I got working on the letter of intent.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That was really good, Robin. Thank you.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Sure. Thank you. Joanne, thanks so much.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you, Bo.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Joanne.

[Joanne (Judicial Bureau Coordinator)]: Thank you.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Thanks.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Are you there, Cindy?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: I am. I was trying to change my name. Hi.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, it's been a long time.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: It has. It has. And by the way, I was going to bring you tangerines from the co op. Instead of cookies this morning. Anyway, it's great to see you. Cindy Locke, executive director of the Vermont Association of Snow Travelers Vast.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're very glad to have you here today, and it's great to see you.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: It's nice to see you all too. It really is. And no matter what WCAX says, we're having a great season. I don't know if you saw the news piece from the other day, but

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: David, I've seen people out on the rail trail a lot.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Yeah, I actually had to drive up to Waterford yesterday up on the New Hampshire border and saw a lot of trucks and trailers at Marty's and you know, and and people riding all over and there's so much snow. It's wonderful. We're very excited.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: I'm sorry?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: What was the CA they said it wasn't a good year? It was too cold or something?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Yeah. They well, you know how they interview you and then they only take what they wanna, you know? I I even said something about our volunteers aging out but that's why we're recruiting young people and families and they cut out the whole part about recruiting young people and families. So, I'm kind of over it at this point, but that's just what happens. You guys know what it's like running and for getting interviewed. So anyway.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So we have a section and we're talking about, I think it's section 18 for us and there were some fines in there and they said it was suggested by, the increase is suggested by VAST.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Yeah. I believe it's section 17. It might be 18, but but anyway but, yes, you are correct, senator. So we've been talking about this for a few years now. We are grappling with the same things that you are, that I was just listening to and I was listening to earlier this week in your committee. But basically, we have folks that have decided that they'd rather chance coming in to Vermont and getting a ticket because the ticket for no registration or no TMA trail pass is a little over $200 I think it was $2.00 $5.02 $0.03. And our regular season trail passes range from 195 to $2.35. And so it's actually they're taking in the chance. And where we come from, it's not a huge revenue thing for us. Tickets, I mean, we we make about $10,000 a year, and that goes completely back to help support law enforcement. But for us as well, it's a safety issue, just like what you're talking about. You've got legal riders out there that are insured and doing everything right. If they get hit by somebody that doesn't have all of that, because like in Massachusetts, Massachusetts, you don't have to have insurance. New Hampshire, you don't have to have insurance on your machine. New York, you do. Vermont, you do. Quebec, you do. And so it's really a safety issue for us. And we we hear it from law enforcement, and we also hear it from our legal riders that have people that join their groups or that they see at a junction. And the people are like, yeah, whatever. I'm just gonna take my chance. So we're looking for a fine increase on no TMA, no registration. And we worked with the commissioner, who I see just walked in, regarding this and his legal team. And we just would like to see an increase for no registration, no trail pass to help encourage people to ride legally so they're safe.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And just remind us, all the money goes into enforcement?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Correct. Yes. So enforcement receives we hire, we contract with all the law enforcement, and we actually do track who's writing all the tickets. So for us, even though we're on a smaller scale, what you were just talking about, we do do that. They have to give us reports, and then I can pile all of them at the end of the season to show how many tickets the sheriff's wrote, how many tickets state police and fish and wildlife and police departments write, and what they're for. And so, in addition to the fine coming back to us to support law enforcement, we also receive $5 from every Vermont registration. It's in statute, goes into our law enforcement program. And so our budget, like, for instance, our budget this year is about a $106,000. That includes paying law enforcement to be out there, and it also includes grant, we give grants for their equipment. So if they need a snowmobile or trailers, we have a committee of our governor's council that approves grants.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So 106 is the whole enforcement budget. And you contract out with who do you contract out with?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: So we contract out with the Vermont State Police, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife, Vermont Sheriffs, and we also have a few police departments like Morrisville and Hyde Park.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Go ahead. Thanks for being here. Can you tell me how many tickets have, like, the number of tickets per year? What's an average number of tickets that you keep?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: I would say an average number of tickets is about it depends on the snow year. Last year, I believe there was about 800. And we have about we have about 20,000 members, which is what we've consistently had over the years. We had a little bump during COVID when all of outdoor recreation exploded and now we're just where we were before COVID.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: And when you I should know this from past years but is are members separate than those that buy the pass or do you buy buying the pass, you're a member?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: By buying the pass, you're a member.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Cindy, if you get picked up for both, it's a four not having either one registration or trail, it's four fifty. Is it four fifty if you have one and not the other? Or is that possible to do?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: It's 450 if you have one or not the other. It's 450 times two if you have two, but it's up to the discretion of the law enforcement, officer. So they can say, okay, look, buddy, you know, you're you don't have both, but we're gonna hit you for one. Don't let us find you again. The the problem an issue that you might think about, because I don't know and this is something for a question for DMV or how it's tracked. We we built a system that we really tried to encourage law enforcement to use on the back end that they can, track. And so let's say a fish and wildlife officer picks somebody up in Bennington, and the next day, this sheriff in Windsor County picks up the same person. It how are they communicating that this person's already been stopped and get got a warning? So I'm not really sure, but we do have we did build a system that law enforcement there's a QR code on every trail pass, every sticker, every trail pass. They can scan that with their phone and they can pull up real time data on who that machine belongs to when, you know, so somebody can't say, Oh, we bought it, it must be in the mail. No, it'll show right there on the database the time and date that they bought the pass. They can also, sometimes they'll call me cause I tell them my phone's on volunteer time. Even on the weekend, they'll call and they'll be like, we don't have a trail pass, but we've got a registration and we can't find it. Can you see? And I can go back to my database and see where that machine has because in Vermont, the registration number stays the same. In New Hampshire, it's different every year. But if it's a Vermont sled, I can kind of go back and say, oh, that guy this guy sold that sled, things like that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Wendy, what?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Hi, we haven't met Wendy Harrison. I'm in the Windham District. So thanks for being here and that sounds like an amazing database. Do you get the information from the state on the tickets? And then do you have to manually put that in or? No. Yeah. How does that

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: all work?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Good question, Senator. So no, what we do is we have a reporting. We don't pay invoices unless we have actual reports from each department. So, so, the sheriffs will tend to, invoice a few times during the season. Usually, Fish and Wildlife and Vermont State Police wait till the end of the season. And so they send me all their reports, and then I compile it in an Excel spreadsheet and to, you know, to track it because we are also responsible to the state and feds for know? And so we have to we have to supply reports regarding all kinds of things including law enforcement actions on trails like how many if there are accidents, how many rescues, things like that.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Wow.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: But this is, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: No. Please finish with me.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: So our database is Salesforce, which is a really great database sales system, and it was built in house specifically for VAST by one of our employees. Like she really like flew the plane while she was, you know, going to school for it and building it. And it's tied into our financial system and everything. So we have a very, you know, and we started it right in COVID, the beginning of COVID because we couldn't sell passes in person any longer. And we had already had the technology for a year or so, but it really got us to move completely online. And now we have searchable, traceable, we even have GPS units in all of our groomers so we can show where those are. You know, people can look at our trail map and be like, oh yeah, that trail was just groomed an hour ago, that's the direction I want to go.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's amazing. I'm impressed. So, how's we're talking about this session about safety a lot in this committee. Are there any safety trends happening in your world?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Personally or professionally? Personally, I think what you guys are on track, I'm very impressed with. I think that safety on our roads is really important. I think that a lot of what I hear from law enforcement, you know, off the cuff is that they're frustrated and you know, just with with cars and registrations and all that in general. So, I think you guys have a huge task on your hands. Ours is like a micro cosm of what you encounter and we've been able to just kind of stay on top of it and keep building these systems because we're not as bureaucratic, you know what I mean? We're so much smaller. But safety is a big concern. We have very strict policies. We know ice is safe ice to us. We don't have any trails that go over lakes. There's lots of ice fishing out there and all that kind of stuff, but we stopped doing that. We have a zero alcohol tolerance. We have a safety ambassador program. I've got 40 safety ambassadors statewide that wear high vis vests that look like cops. So as a visual, you know, it's like in the old days, and I joke cause we have a safety governor's council where we've got members of state police and fish and wildlife and actually in Senator Brennan's on it too. That, you know, in the old days where they used to put a dummy in a cop car on the interstate and would just slow everybody down. That's what our safety ambassadors. They're really ambassadors just like ski areas have, but they they they know they're not law enforcement. They're really out there just to help people and guide them and, you know, if there's a sign down, fix it. But it really does. I wear one of the vest too, and it does look like you're law enforcement and people automatically either try to wave you by because they know they're illegal, know, they know I'm fine or, they really do need assistance or it just slows them down.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Wow, and then in terms of accidents out there, are they same or more or less?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: You know, I don't want to jinx myself, we didn't really have any last year. We have small ones. Usually, people are riding either beyond their ability or beyond the ability of the trails themselves. Like for instance, the snow we just got, you'll know yourself from being down in Wyndham County that there were some areas that were pretty bare until we got this foot and a half of powder and powder is not conducive to grooming. It's hard to groom until there's more moisture in it. Or alcohol, people drinking and then riding on their own property and having an accident. That's more of what happens.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Yeah. Thank

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Anything else?

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Well, I just thank you for all you do? I really do follow you guys. I'm like a fan.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: We should send you cookies. Well,

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: I've known Senator Westman for a very long time. Was very, very time. Long time.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Would love to see you again.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Thank you. Alright. Well, if you need anything else from me, please don't hesitate to reach out to myself or Frank. As Senator Westman will tell you, I'm rather opinionated, but I am pretty informed. So I enjoy

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: watching what you guys do. We've always been active, and it's great to see you.

[Cindy Locke (Executive Director, Vermont Association of Snow Travelers - VAST)]: Great to see you guys too. You take care.

[Teri Corson (State Court Administrator)]: Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Alright. Bye. We have like fifteen minutes.