Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Right, Tina. You're live. This

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: is Senate Transportation Committee. We are Thursday, January 29, and our first witness is Rich Savella. And miss mister Savella, are you there?

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Yes. I am.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: senator White wanted to say a few words before you came on, but you will be first. And when you do come on, you'll need to introduce yourself and give us a little background about yourself before you go into your testimony.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you Mr. Stable, thank you for coming on, Davila. This gentleman found out about this issue from Reddit. So I wanted to just tee it up a little bit because what the purpose of our conversation today, so that you don't have to carry the weight of the mini truck association, is to address that exact question. Is what are mini trucks? What are K trucks? How do we define them in Vermont state statute? And how do we properly make sure they're registered? And this witness in particular will be talking about their experience of having one of these vehicles and attempting to get it registered. And I know that there are many other Vermonters who've reached out or are on the Reddit thread related to the K trucks that have had diverse experiences, but at least not consistent experiences when they attempted to get their vehicles registered. My hope in the language that you'll see from Damien that he was kind enough to draft is to clarify and reiterate what we actually have already heard from the DMV commissioner, which is in correspondence over email with the chair of house transportation, which we can include on our legislative page, was essentially the sense that, no, they're not trying to stop folks from registering paying trucks or limit the driving of those vehicles in any way, but rather it seems like there's just some lack of clarity. So that's really what I wanted to tee up and thank the developer for taking the time. And there's another gentleman named David from, who runs an advocacy organization named Lone Star K Trucks, and he provided us with some materials on our legislative page, which I'm happy to talk through, but it just says like, what is a mini truck? And it includes a letter from SEMA, who is the assist, if you've ever been to the SEMA conference, it's that organization, the Equipment Manufacturers Association, they also have a letter to provide to us.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Perfect. I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: think we're ready now.

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Well, good morning, chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Rich. I am a Vermont resident, and I am the proud owner of a 2,000 Subaru Sambar k truck or minitruck, as it's been called. And I'm here to describe my firsthand experience registering the vehicle here in Vermont and why that experience has convinced me that clear statutory language is needed. I began my registration process in 2025 around September, October. And before importing the vehicle, I did research, Vermont laws, specifically to determine whether, k trucks were legal for road use. I did this multiple times throughout the process, and I could not find any statute or regulation that made them illegal. The only relevant law I did identify was h seven two nine, which restrict their use on interstate highways, which that restriction makes sense to me, and I agree with that. And I planned my use of the e vehicle accordingly. Once the vehicle arrived, I began contacting d m the DMV to schedule my registration appointment and confirm what documentation, would be required. And during those calls, was repeatedly told by different DMV staff that k trucks were illegal. When I asked for specific statutes or regulations that made them illegal, no one I spoke with was able to provide one. In each case, once I pressed for a legal citation, the conversation would then shift back to discussing the paperwork I was requesting information on, that I needed for the registration. I was told multiple times that the vehicle would either not pass inspection or that it was illegal to inspect. Again, no statute or written rule was cited to support those statements. Because of the conflicting guidance, I had to call multiple times just to determine what was actually required of me for this. And during these conversations, several DMV employees told me that there were strong rumors that k trucks would soon be banned outright in Vermont because they were considered dangerous. I was advised to contact the state house for more information, and when I did so, legislative clerks told me that they had heard similar rumors and advised me to contact my representatives. After not receiving response responses from my local representatives, I contacted the governor's office. In that conversation, a member of the governor's staff initially stated that the DMV had effectively banned k trucks by instructing inspection stations not to inspect Japanese domestic market vehicles. After further review during the call, he acknowledged that there was no state or federal law authorizing such a ban and that this position was not supported by the statute. He also confirmed that he heard similar discussions about potentially banning these vehicles in the future. When I eventually went to the South Burlington DMV for my appointment, the employee at the check-in counter stated these Japanese trucks are illegal. When I asked for the law that made them illegal, no none was provided. I proceeded with my appointment as scheduled. The DMV employee who handled my paperwork on both visits, it was the same employee, had very different understanding. She was familiar with the with the current law, reviewed my documentation, explained what additional information I need to bring back, was and able to issue me my temporary registration so the truck could be inspected. Without her knowledge and without her willingness to rely on written law rather than informal guidance, my registration would not have moved forward. When I brought the truck for inspection, the inspection station told me that they had been informed by the DMV that JDM vehicles were not to be inspected. However, after reviewing the actual statutes, my paperwork, and the vehicle itself, they were able to inspect it. In the end, I was able to register my vehicle legally, but the process was far more difficult than it needed to be, not because of missing paperwork or noncompliance on my part, but because different people within the system were operating under different interpretations of the law. My concern now is not just what I experienced, but what this uncertainty means going forward. When legality depends on who you speak to rather than what the law says, residents are left unsure whether they can rely on registrations issued in good faith. Based on this experience, I'm asking that the committee, consider codifying clear definitive statutory language regarding the legality of Japanese domestic market vehicles and more specifically k trucks for use on Vermont roads so that residents, state employees, and enforcement agencies will all have the same understanding of the law?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I would say the first thing that we're going to do is have DMV in and ask about not your own situation specifically but the situations around these generally. But go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Just thank you so much for your testimony and that is a very reasonable request. And I'm honestly sorry that you have to make it because our it should be clear to customers when they go to any of our agencies.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It should be clear before you bought the vehicle that you knew you could register it with.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, yeah. So thank you for your testimony.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Are there any other questions? Pat? Yeah. Just can you buy you bought it new here or used?

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: It is a used vehicle. The federal guidelines are, that these vehicles, when imported, have to be twenty five years or older in order to be imported under the exemption that would allow them for for road use depending on, you know, your local state laws. So I did purchase it used, and I imported it myself.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And did you pay purchase and use tax?

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Mhmm. K.

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Yes. I paid all all applicable all applicable taxes and tariffs associated with both registering the vehicle and bringing it in.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, I just wanna say thank you again for being willing to speak on this and for also going through every channel possible to try to communicate that there was a lack of understanding at the ground level. I wanted to ask just like as an owner of one of these vehicles, I seem to be seeing more of them. And I'm wondering if think that I mean, even based on the virality of the conversation on the Vermont Reddit thread, it makes me think that people are buying more of these. We're gonna see these continuing. I'm wondering if you as an owner could just talk about, is there a growing, are people purchasing these vehicles more? Are you seeing it growing as a trend? Or is this just like a random fluke?

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: So I I I think there's a lot at play increasing with with the increase in purchase of these vehicles. The current state of the economy where, you know, you're looking at either paying $600 a month even for a pre owned vehicle or just spending outright. I think I I put in maybe $6,000, to get this truck. I have something that is, very much applicable to my needs, in being able to use it on my land for for farming use and also be able to go up to Lowe's and and get some supplies, some building materials, and throw it in the back. They're very useful, and they do look awesome and there's a bit of a reality in how they look. But the parts are also easily accessible, not expensive, and maintaining them is not hard at all. So it's there's a lot of factors at play as to why we're seeing more and more of them.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Can I just ask a follow-up?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Did you say they have to be 25 years old to come in?

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Yes, 25 years or older in order to in order to come in under the, exemption, two a, on the NHTSA form, which would allow them for for road use and also exempt them from certain, EPA standards as well.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: So they don't have funds or concerns.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Right. So they can Do they are they still making them?

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Yes. Yes. K trucks are still very very much used in in Japan today. As a matter of fact, the more, every single year, the next version gets to be imported, I have the 2,000, which is the latest that could be imported, and the more the more we we step forward, the safer they get and the more features they have. I have an airbag. I have, DOT rated glass. Mine is is up to up to par with a with a with an older American vehicle than any other model that could be on the market. So I feel safe in mind.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: That was going to be my next question. Did they meet all the crash standards for inspection or for, well, not inspection for. They don't need to if they're 25 years old.

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Would be exempt from that. Newer models do have crumple zones and are a lot tougher than than some of the older ones, but the assumed risk you'd be taking with the older ones is just about the same assumed risk you would have hopping on a motorcycle and driving that that down the road, except you're more visible in the truck.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: What's your what's the top speed on on yours?

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: God. I think with mine mine, I'm able to hit around, 80 miles an hour top speed.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, okay.

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: And there are supercharged models that could go faster. But, all of them all of them can go over 50 miles an hour and and meet the, meet the requirement for being able to be on a 50 mile an hour road.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: And, Rich, when you said you agreed with the prohibition on interstate highways, why was that? Is it because of the speed or the

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Yeah. The those those roads tend to be a lot faster going over, you know, even though I can go 80 miles an hour, I definitely don't wanna go 80 miles an hour or have people going 80 miles an hour around me, the vehicle just from just for the sheer fact of its of its size, not that, you know, it's it would be unsafe to do so. I just I I think that's a reasonable a reasonable give.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: think, we will be looking to take testimony from DMV about this. So thank you, Rich.

[Rich Savella (Vermont resident; mini-truck owner)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. I,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Googled it, and, in AI, gate trucks are popular in Vermont for farm hunting and local use, but registering them for on road use is currently challenging due to shifting DMV policies and potential upcoming restrictions.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: The AI is more than we do. I I just I was glad it's that period.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Well, we we asked the commission We know. Commissioner, he said, no. There's no problem. You can register them. Easy.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And we

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: He says, well, I think we're gonna have to have a apparently, there's some question about that. So we will have to dig a little deeper in this.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: If I just say got some language from Damien that he's drafted, that I'm hoping we can consider in the DMV bill whether or not it's this round because I think we have to vote it out today. Yeah. So if we're willing to put at least some version of it in whatever draft we can come up with, that would be appreciative of it. Although the draft doesn't include a request for like a memo from DMV, I think that's something that I'm gonna ask for from the commissioner specifically as well.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. I think you wanna move there or you wanna sit here? Yeah. I can go up there too again. It doesn't matter. We're doing flotation. I should go up there? No. I should go up there.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So the next thing that I was hoping we could talk about is S 172, which I think is why we have folks in the room now, which is related to requiring the use of personal flotation devices during cold weather. The reason I think this bill is relevant for our committee is, although it may not seem like a DMV miscellaneous bill inclusion, it does relate to boating and being out on the water, and that is our purview. And I know that the house transportation side of things had considered it, but we're hoping to see us potentially work on it first. And the reason I introduced it was largely because I agree that drowning is a terrible, terrible thing that happened, and it's a tragedy in our communities. And so Okay. I would oh, thank you. This is the K trucks that I can purchase. So I would hope that we could consider any law that would help prevent drowning, especially if you've ever fallen into cold water. You know that your body reacts a little differently, or at least mine does, than warm weather. So I was very surprised when it was brought to my attention that we don't have the same requirements for personal flotation devices during cold weather when it would seem like an even more logical thing due to how your body's been reacting cold weather. So I'm really looking forward to hearing from our witnesses on this. And Yes. We also have representative Ray Garapano who introduced the same bill on the outside. So we really appreciate you. Doctor. Sopster.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Damien, you're next on the schedule. Okay. So if you wanna just kick us off and

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: You wanna walk through the language? Sure. Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm gonna take off now. So if I

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I'll be back. There. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: There's three pieces of material there. There's, like, the key truck explainer, the letter of postsema, and a letter from the. Yeah.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: That's good. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: And you like to thank god. Alright.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Good morning. For the record, I'm Damon Leonard from the Office of Legislative Council. This morning, we are looking at s one seventy two, and the bill is pretty straightforward. What it does is it amends the equipment law with respect to boats. And this this particular section covers everything from, like, the lights that are required on certain motorboats and sailboats and where those lights have to be and what colors they have to be to things like personal flotation devices. So what this would add is a new requirement that so currently with with personal flotation devices, you're required to have the flotation devices on the vessel. And for children, I believe it's 12, they're required to be wearing a flotation device when the vessel is underway. What this would do is it would add a requirement that before May 1 every year, so January through April, and then after on or after November 1, so November and December, so really a six month period, all individuals aboard a vessel that is underway, if they're on the open deck, would have to wear a properly secured personal flotation device. And it's important to note the next section in here, inspected commercial vessels. So these would be your Lake Champlain ferries are not subject to this requirement. They have an exemption. So those are US Coast Guard inspected commercial vessels. They include things like the ferries, passenger ships that operate for hire, cargo ships, working boats, that sort of thing, that are required under federal law to be inspected by the coast guard. They're not subject to this, but this would be other vessels. If you're on the open deck, you'd have to wear a personal flotation device. So that would be the the major change there. Obviously, in Vermont, some of those months, many years, the lake is iced over. So But it's not

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Could be any body of water.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Could be any body of water if you're on a vessel, and it's underway. So Like, in vessel, could be any could be a paddleboard? Yeah. Let me pull up the definition out of here just to make sure I don't misanswer that. Vessel is defined as Every description of watercraft other than a sea plane on the water or a racing shell or growing skull occupied exclusively by individuals over 12 years of age used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water. So it includes outboard, sailboat Kayak. Kayak, motorboat, etcetera. So but, yeah, thank you for checking on that. But, yeah, so this would basically so if you, you know, now if you're on Lake Champlain and you're on the paddle board and you're you're over 12 years of age, you can have your PFD strapped to the the front of the board. This would basically say if you're out there in April, you would need to be wearing your PFD. K. Other questions?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you for writing this stuff.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's my job.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, is mister Johnson here? Yes. I'm here.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Good

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: morning. This is my first time doing this, so I'm prepared.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You're welcome here anytime. I do need to give your name and a little backfism and

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: go right into it. Thank you. My name

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: is Jess Lucas, and I'm the director of Aquatics at the Greater Burlington YMCA. Thank you so much for not only having me, but for the clear and serious recognition you're giving to this very important bill. I am here today in support of that bill that proposes to require all individuals on board a vessel between November 1 and May 1 to wear a personal flotation device. We do not talk about water safety the same way we instill in adults car seat education. We do not talk about water safety in the same way we fit children for bicycle helmets and tell them why it's so critical to wear them when riding. We do not talk about water safety in the same way we explain to look both ways before crossing the street. We do not talk about water safety. Drowning is a silent tragedy. Prevention of drowning is also possible, but it requires time, coordinated effort, money, and state level leadership, as stated in the 2022 report of Water Safety in Vermont published by Safe Kids Vermont. What began as a collaborative partnership between the Vermont Child Fatality Review Team and Safe Kids Vermont has grown into the Water Safety Action Committee, which for the past three years has worked to identify reasons for the morbidity and mortality of children and adults from drowning in water recreational activities. Vermont has limited state level legislation related to water safety. As a result, guidance often relies on local ordinances, insurance company mandates, and or personal choice. The Water Safety Action Committee works through a coordinated partnership that includes State Kids Vermont, Vermont Child Fatality Review Boards, the Greater Burlington YMCA, Live Like Benjo Foundation, Gaslino's Children's Hospital, the Vermont Department of Health, University of Vermont Network, Vermont State Police Marine Division, and Swim Lake Annie Incorporated. Together, we are working to reduce unintentional drowning deaths, hospitalizations, and emergency department visits throughout the state. Our goal is simple, to prevent drowning in our communities. Vermont has 7,100 miles of rivers and streams, 242,219 acres of lakes, reservoirs, ponds, and 300,000 acres of freshwater wetlands. The moment the sun comes out and air temperatures rise, we are enjoying the outdoors. We do not come inside until the snow falls, and even at that, we still venture out. Currently, only children under the age of 13 are required to wear a life jacket when boats are under wet. This bill proposes for cold weather on or before May 1 of each year and on or after November 1 of each year, all individuals aboard a vessel while underway and the individual is on an open deck shall wear a properly secured wearable US Coast Guard approved personal flotation device as intended by the manufacturer. As a committee, cold water life jacket legislation became a primary focus because of its attainability. There are zero reasons to not take this small step to protect one another. It is simple, it is effective, and it saves lives. Cold water shock is a major factor in boating fatalities when water temperatures are less than 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Cold water shock causes an involuntary gas, often resulting in aspiration of water, hyperventilation, breathlessness, and a reduced ability to control your breathing and swim. A life jacket greatly increases your chance for survival in cold water while also increasing the amount of time to be rescued. A life jacket buys us time. It keeps you afloat if you lose your sense of recognition of what to do next. When disorientation or panic takes over, a life jacket can help. In cold water, when the body and brain are no longer working together, a life jacket can mean the difference between life and death. Life jackets are the extra layer of protection that could save us. In closing, as a representative of the Water Safety Action Committee, I believe safety is all of our responsibilities. I support this bill because we truly want everyone to get home safely each and every day. Thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: You're not tripping. It's it's not being very school without watching a six foot five human being. Go down.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yay.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: You pull the handle, you will get a

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: really big surprise. They don't recommend it right now. Any time.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I think for the afternoon.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, wow. It comes with pride in my

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're morning committees, so there won't be any good here.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: No. And you already

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: need some some good. Alright. I'm going to

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: do. Nice.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: I'm gonna get some maybe

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Something nice to

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: hear. He's down.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: The Vermont voting laws and responsibilities handbook?

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Right.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Can put this bag in your bag. Don't shut yourself, James.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Oh, I wanna pull that thing better.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: I think that's great. I don't peek it over to myself. Oops. You did it.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Fuck out of all that. Okay. What was other lesson?

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Yep. I'm a MS Teams guy. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'm here. It's on your Can

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: you see it?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, okay. Okay. Perfect.

[Megan (Committee Assistant/AV support)]: He just x out.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Of this. Yeah. I think.

[Megan (Committee Assistant/AV support)]: Okay. Then you can go to your PowerPoint c.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Yeah. I'll put it in full screen right there. Yeah. That's on there now. Yeah.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Plus we have it too. And you have it. That's enough.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Very good. Okay. For the record, my name is Al Johnson. I'm the voting law administrator, also known as the BLA for the state of Vermont. I'm based in public safety, and I'm part of the Vermont State Police Marine Division. We're here to talk about s one seventy two, the importance of life jacket wear in cold weather. I'm gonna go through some of the science and the reality of what we're doing here. So physiological reality, this is about cold shock. Jess mentioned a little bit cold shock is the first initial response when you go into exceedingly cold water. She mentioned 70 degrees, you know, that that, oh, that's refreshing feeling when we all jump in in June when the lake is still kinda cool, and then below 50 when it's really serious business. Aversion of cold water causes involuntary gasping reflex, and gasping reflex often makes people intake or aspirate water, and it does not take a lot of water to be aspirated to begin a drowning sequence. Even a strong swimmer, the the myth of being a strong swimmer in cold water is is quite problematic because, the different stages of cold water shock really render you helpless in the water, even if you're physically capable. So the first minute is the cold shock response. Cold incapacitation, cold water causes blood to rush to the core. That that blood is trying to protect your vital organs. So what it's doing is it's starving your legs and your feet and your hands and your arms. So if you're in the water for that first ten minutes and you're trying to tread water, you're trying to self rescue, you're trying to swim, you have a very small window of being able to help yourself.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: It's 50 degrees. It's kinda Yeah.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: I've got a slide. I'll show you. 50 but 50 degrees is that that really dangerous zone, and it coincides with the dates that are proposed in the language in the bill. And then misconception about hypothermia. Most folks believe that they will die of hypothermia hours later. Most water fatalities happen far before hypothermia sets in. It's a really cold shock, cold immersion that really causes drowning in cold water. So this one-ten-one principle explains the timeframe. It is controlled breathing to avoid drowning from the initial shock. That initial shock, some people actually go into cardiac arrest also and that's obviously not something you can prepare for. It's a dice roll. Pendance in is where swim failure happens. If you're not out of the water and trying to get warm or have somebody helping you, you are really in trouble, and that's about the end of the line for a lot of folks. And then an hour later is hypothermia when your body temperature, your core temperature really starts to slow down, which ultimately leads to dizziness and unconsciousness. So the water doesn't need to be freezing. Cold water shock can happen at 70 degrees or below. It's very severe at 50 degrees. This chart shows the the average temperatures in Lake Champlain. If you think about the smaller lakes and ponds in Vermont, a lot of them tend to cool down actually faster in the fall and warm up a little slower in springtime because the ice goes out later. So this red line here on the slide is that 50 degree Fahrenheit lines. So November's here. Cold, cold, cold, cold, and it doesn't get back up to 50 until May. As far as data and effectiveness go, the high fatality rate without life jackets, this is in broad brush strokes in all recreational boating. The data indicates that seventy five to eighty seven percent of drowning victims in boating accidents were not wearing a life jacket, and that's from the coast guard's data. Life jackets do save lives. The coast guard estimates that eighty percent of the boating fatalities could be prevented if people were just wearing life jackets. And it's accessibility versus wear. This is just like when you get into your car before you drive the down the road, after you start it, before you put it in reverse, what do we all do? We put our seat belt on. If it's a windy day and you slide off the road, you don't get to buckle your seat belt when you're in the process. Even worse, if you were to be in a head on accident and you did not have a seat belt on, there's no chance it's going to be applied. That can impact your life, your health, and can impact the way the systems of your car are designed to help keep you safe too. So a life jacket is doing the same thing on the water. If you don't have it on and something happens rapidly, especially if you're alone on the water, you're kinda out of luck. There's some great videos on the Internet of folks that you test with five or six healthy average people. They say jump in the water, and they throw them a life jacket, and they say, okay. Put it on when you're in the water, and it's a very difficult thing to do. I'm a lifelong boater, a lifelong surfer. I've tried it. It's really hard. And I'm fully tall too, so that that's that's even worse. And then the behavioral impact here. The research indicates that mandatory legislation is the most effective way to affect to affect behavior change. And behavior change is really what we're after here. Want other people to kinda wear their, like, jackets consistently and ideally in all weather, not just cold weather. Safety versus convenience. The false sense of security is you know, this is really I've got some anecdotal stories here of a couple of these, which are unfortunately related to PALI's. Warm air temperatures in the spring, which are common in Vermont where the water is still really cold. In, April 2021, there were three boats that went out in a rowboat on Lewis Creek. The air temperature was 60. The water temperature was 35. There was a youth on the boat wearing a life jacket, and he was with his two grandparents. The boat somehow went over a small sluice way, and everyone wound up in the water. The grandfather was able to save the child and get him to shore. He went back out to rescue his wife, and they both perished because of the cold water. And it's it's absolutely heartbreaking because for that young person, that is a memory that never goes away. The next one is the heavy heavy clothing trap. When you're recreating on the water in cold weather, you have a lot of layers on. If you go over the side or you you somehow get in the water, those layers immediately absorb water. They help pull you down because of the weight of the materials on you. And that's during that ten minute period where you're trying to do anything you can to save yourself. In October 24 on Roode Pond in Williamstown, we had a gentleman out duck hunting, and air temperature was 50 and the water was about 40. This person was not a great swimmer, was wearing a life jacket. He wound up capsizing, and a rescue attempt was made from shore by family members with another kayak, and it happened so fast. By the time they got to him, his layers of warm clothes were saturated, and he was not a strong swimmer anyway and came on a crowning. And then paddlecraft are the ultimate risk because the chance of self rescue for paddlecraft is very low. Canoes, kayaks, stand up paddleboards, the risk of capsizing is super high. Requiring mandatory use here would really help these folks if they find themselves in a bad position. Policy and practicality. So this is the existing precedent. These are states of the Northeast Region of The US that currently have mandatory cold water wear periods. Most of them are around November 1 to May 1 like we're proposing. This map is from my national organization, NASBLA. It's the National Association of State Voting Law Administrators. So each state in the country has a voting law administrator like myself. We gather and we do work, on all kinds of levels. So the the exceptions in the Northeast are Vermont and New Hampshire. Policy and practicality continued, so these laws protect voters during the most dangerous time of the year. We're gonna simplify compliance, a mandatory where a law removes ambiguity. Everybody just needs to have a life jacket on, ensuring all passengers are protected rather than relying on quick decision making during Yeah. Mhmm. It reduces the burden on rescuers. A life jacket increases visibility in the water, making rescue operations faster and safer for emergency personnel. Personally, I part of my team at at the state police is the underwater recovery team, and the less they go out, the happier I am because they are not going out to save people. They're going to recover by the set. And then enforcement, as far as enforcement goes, although enforcement is not the primary goal here, behavior changes. Vermont Game Wardens are often on the water, especially in the fall season of fishing and hunting. They can conduct compliance work through their regular checks that, you know, extra need for funding or staff, which is part of the checklist when they encounter somebody on the water or at the boat ramp, you know, during fishing season or waterfowl season. And then this is a success story about Pennsylvania, who in 2012 instituted a law similar to what we're talking about. In the last few years, they had a fifty percent reduction in coals water deaths because of mandatory life jacks laws, and that's per the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission. I talked to my VLA colleague yesterday in Pennsylvania. He said he was, you know, very happy at the way it's been going. He says he can't believe why more states don't. Just as far as other information is concerned, this is a project I did in collaboration with my former colleagues at the Vermont Health Department where I used to work. This is expanding and refining recreational voting data in Vermont. We received a grant from the Safe States Alliance to kind of broaden the scope of what we know for injuries on the water. The Coast Guard and their their accident reporting system is a very narrow view. This report covers other data sources, Vermont Vital Records, Essence, the SIREN EMS data in Vermont, walk in clinic data. And this is so we can get a full view of what the actual number of incidents on the water is. This doesn't change the number of deaths because wild statistics is the record that we use. However, the numbers that we found in this pilot project were that there's a 10 x time a 10 x occurrence of incidents on the water where people seek care or are injured or there's property damage that is basically not reported through the Coast Guard system. And then there's some other voting information here that you're you're welcome to look at. The Vermont Voting Statutes are in type 23. The public use of waterways. Those are crafted and run by environmental conservation. Our marine unit has a great web page. Fish and Wildlife has a great boating page as well as education information. Now as well as my national organizations out there, the Coast Guard Floating Safety website is quite valuable as well. That's all I have for you today.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Question. Given the law the way it is now, and we just check to make sure we get this right, kids have to wear flotation devices in the summer. There has to be devices on on a boat for everyone. Correct. How much enforcement is going on? Are game wardens and the state police, and have there been tickets handed out? What's going on? Yeah. So as far as patrols go, through

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: the through the grant that I administer, it funds patrols on Lake Champlain and all the other ponds and waterways in Vermont, and that includes the state police, fish and wildlife. We have a sub grant with the Colchester Police, and they have a full time person on in Colchester, Malice Bay area, which is the busiest marine hub on Lake Champlain, sees the most traffic and the most incidents, and also the Grand County Sheriff's Department who covers all the all the area up in the islands, which is a great deal of coastline and water access. We are patrolling from May 15 until September 15. When you're on the water, once you get to the to about Labor Day or the week before, the traffic level really goes down. Yeah. Goes down. And the amount of traffic on the lake is an important part of being rescued if you find yourselves in the water. Once everybody puts their boat away and the kids are back to school, there's very few people out there. So any kind of preparedness or prevention activity you can undertake is gonna help your outcome. So do you have any idea of how

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: many tickets would be able to get out of?

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Oh, so I have I have full data on that, and if that's something you're interested, I can show it to you. Basically, what we do is we do vessel inspections and then we do stops when the officers are out patrolling. I'm not a sworn officer, I'm a civilian, but I work with all of them very closely. So mandatory wear, if they do a vessel stop and there's a mandatory wear violation, there is always a citation issue because that is that is the most important responsibility a parent has for a child 13 or something like that on them. That and, you know, the whole gamut of of violations, veterans, statute. If you want numbers of damage, just

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: let me know, I can get that for you. It would be helpful. Bet the back of the Yes. Sure. I guess

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Unless if people do patrols not understate control, but the coast guard is outside there.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Yes. The coast guard is is out there. You know, they have their one installation in Burlington, or Lake Champlain, and they also have boats trailer boats to get to Lake Memphremagog because that's a federal waterway, and they have a response. And we have a boat up there too, but they are also responsible for that in Wallace Pond. But yeah. So we have the boats spread all over the the lake to fill in all the spots and have the ability to respond quickly to incidents on the water. Once once our boats are out

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: of the water, it's a

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: completely different scenario. At all of our barracks in the in the patrol season, we have small vessels. They're they're basically 18 foot aluminum boats without boards, and they can pull them right behind a cruiser. There's one at each barracks. If there's a local emergency, they can get a boat in the water. Once it's the off season, those boats are stored away, so everything changes. And then your map on

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: the Northeast, is that are those the states that have this law nationwide, or are you just focused on the Northeast? There are other states.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: These are the ones that are nationwide. It's interesting that in the northern tier in the central part of the country does not have this type of law. The way voting programs are run-in different parts of the country are very, very different from Vermont. You know, we are a small state. We're a seasonal state. We are a freshwater state. My colleague across Lake Champlain, Alexis Howland, who's the VLA in New York, has the Erie. She has Long Island Sound

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: and all that area. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Lake Lakes and Bogey and the cold. Yes.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Maybe it just freezes so fast out there. I'm I'm not sure.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, first of all, thank you so much for the work that you do in general. It's always interesting to me where folks are in state government. And I appreciate that your position exists and that you're able to provide us an overview. We had a very unfortunate drowning in my community over the summer of a young person, and it was devastating for the community. I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to what had surprised me, which was basically the cost associated with responding to a Dremenade. It required multiple vehicles on-site, multiple responses from different communities. It required lengthy work afterwards and also, like, just the shock to the people who were the first responders on scene. I'm wondering if you could just kinda quantify that side of things because I think what I hear from folks who would be against this is like, well, I don't wanna have to be required to wear a life vest. I'm a good swimmer, whatever. I don't need it. Why is the government making me do it? But my thought has been, well, you haven't been there when the first responders have to come out and the devastation didn't follow. So I wonder if you can speak kind of to that side of it.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: It's funny because what you're talking about from my work in public health, it included prevention work related to tobacco. And one of the most powerful marketing programs that they had was the truth campaign, truth from real smokers who have disease. I mean, you could do something like that. But to give you an example, just kind of a scale scale of a of a recovery of someone who's drowned. A couple of years ago in Mallet's Bay on fourth of July weekend, there was a real tragic incident where a father and his two kids were out on a a blow up raft. It was a real Whitney. The dad went over the side and wound up sinking and was lost. The kids were luckily recovered by a good Samaritan sailboat that was anchored nearby, and then the recovery began. And because of the wind and the kind of the turbidity of Mallet's Bay, the body drifted pretty far. The water there is 50 to 60 feet deep in the inner bay. The visibility is generally 10 feet or less. So the first part of the recovery is making sure any survivors are safe, getting our underwater recovery team staged in there. So that involves a couple trucks, a couple trailers, inflatable vessels. In an area like that, it includes patrol vessels to block marine traffic and create a search zone, and then the searching begins. And we use divers. We use underwater sonar devices that are towed, and we do search patterns. And and that recovery took days.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Exactly. And and that had a response from Colchester, the state police, Fish and Wildlife, and the Coast Guard. Everyone kind of was involved in that because it was about two and a half days until they recovered the body. And, you know, if you can picture Malope's Bay, if you're familiar with the area, there's a whole section of the bay that was unavailable the fourth of July weekend with just boats and lights and people in the water. While quantifying it, I I wouldn't wanna put a dollar amount on it, but it's it's significant. And there's the maintenance of equipment and maintaining a trained dive team that has to do this kind of hard work. Does that answer your question?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: That that does. And I think

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: It's little graphic, but it's it's

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, I mean, think that's what people don't realize is, like, you might think even, you know, it only impacts me, but whatever happens on the water, there's tons of people who have to shift whatever they're doing and and respond. Right. If you have a life jacket that can kick out, that's a lot better

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: than Sure. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So thank you for that, and that's really tragic. I had not heard that story.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: And, you know, our goal is, at the end of the day, is that everybody comes home at the end of the day to their family from a day on the water. I I'm attached to a lot of groups on social media, and there are Lake Champlain boaters out there currently asking each other, where is their open water so I can go fishing? They're out there right now in the parts of the lake that are not processed. And they're right now, they're starting to run out of boat ramps, which is probably good for their safety, but it's not good for their their fishing hobby, which I understand. We all have hobbies that we're passionate about.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. And I can I can tell you for a fact that that was an eye opener? I live in Mount Svigg. Okay. Yeah. So drove by there during the search, knew the father. So that was that was a community devastating to the community. So and I didn't realize that well, I guess I didn't realize that it wasn't mandatory. I knew it for adults, but having seen what went on there, I said, you know, if I ever you you're not gonna find me out there in November. Probably if you did, everybody on the boat would be wearing, not just seeing that flotation device. Yeah.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: I mean, the life jacket I handed around to work with.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: It's in the bag.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Okay. The great thing about that is that is a inflatable life jacket. You can leave it on manual and pull the t handle. You can set it on automatic. If it gets wet, it will inflate so that, you know, in the winter, that's an ideal scenario, especially if you're alone. You need every advantage you can get. And if if you're an outdoors person and you're you're hunting waterfowl, they come in camouflage. I mean, they're they're part of the whole costume to get you to be successful in your hunting trip and keep you safe. And, I mean, Valentine's Day is coming coming up, all the people in each other's lives, it would be a great

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: time to do it.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: You know? If you're a hunter or a fisher

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: You can love both.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Get your partner a life jacket that inflates, and it's camo cool, and they can still, like, be who they are. You know? There's no reason that's the thing. There's no reason not to do this unless you wanna be stubborn, I guess. One more question.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I was given three of those Mhmm. Red ones just like that. Do they

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: have an expiration date? They don't have

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: an expiration. There is a a gauge that goes from green to red of when the cartridge, the CO2 cartridge that inflates it has to be replaced. Oh, okay. The cartridge generally will have a date on it as well. So it may read green. It's the same with a fire extinguisher. It might be dated, but it still shows green. So if you look at those and you just put in your calendar, check every year, check the date on my cartridge, on my lifejack, and replace it, they're really easy to replace. They just kind of screw in there. Yep. Other questions?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think we're done, and you've been very informative. Awesome. Thank you

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: for your time. I really appreciate your attention to this matter. It's something that's very close to to my heart and and the way I recreate and the way I do my job. So thank you. Thank

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: you for the sheets all thermals. They're my favorite.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I did not hear that.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: It's leaking. That was pretty bad. I drove by that every

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: oh, I dropped out there every day, twice a day, and I saw it was sort

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: of going over the. Thank you. That was Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I not realize until we had, like, every it felt like every vehicle.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Megan? Megan. Is that okay? Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You're fine.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Okay. Thank you so much. Appreciate the assistance.

[Megan (Committee Assistant/AV support)]: Okay. Thank you

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: for the safety data thing I got.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm sorry. Grab this. Okay. Yeah.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I have to do it. Thank you.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Yep.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: It's very easy.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: You're supposed to tell us about seeing a thing that we build across the. No. No.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So Well, the answer is each question.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Have. Ready? Usually, you don't

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We we usually do gas.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: You have been there, is it? I

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: do not have a handout today. Oh, no. No. So for the record, Logan America joint fiscal office, I don't have a fiscal note for you yet, given the sort of state of the bill and the changes and stuff like that. We're also waiting for some data, working with the DMV. But I am going to walk you through the sections that I've highlighted that will likely be in the fiscal notes, mention the rough estimates I have now, and update any questions if there are questions that please. The first section that I wanna highlight is section two and three together. This is the replacement license and then the learner's permit. You all heard, I believe yesterday, from a couple of groups about this. This would expand sort of the replacement that these individuals can receive. So they could get a learner's permit or a driver's license. You heard that there's estimated about 500 people per year were eligible for this. There likely won't be much of a cost associated with these sections just because they are already doing this for the non driver ID. The only real revenue loss that they could see is that, as it is right now, one of these individuals would get the non driver's ID, but then they would have to go and apply or buy the driver's ID. So there might be some loss in revenue related to these individuals not.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Do you know the fee for a driver's ID?

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: So there's a two and a four year. I believe it's like $39 for the two year and $62. So I think if all 500, my rough math is all 500 went and got a four year driver's license, that'd be around $30,000 a year. So relatively minor. I do want to still look into this a little bit more just to make sure I'm catching everything there, but that's sort of the rough math on that one. Oh, I should also mention I'm working off of draft 1.1. I saw there was an updated one on the agenda, but

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I have 1.1.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Okay. Perfect.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I have 2.1.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, yeah. 2.1.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: 2.1 is the same to that.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Oh, I should I did

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: not have that when I was going through this, so I'm working on 1.1. Hopefully, Damon will go through any changes, to the extent that it's changed since 1.1, obviously, my status will need to be effective. The next section is 5. This is the license plate. At 1.1, it is sort of the elimination of the one license plate down or two license plate down to just a single license plate. I spoke with DMV and got some data from them. This made us around it would save around $175,000 a year due to manufacturing cost reductions as well as mailing reductions. We'll get into more specifics on that, but we're going with around 170,175 thousand as of right now if the state were to go to one place.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Go

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: ahead.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: So do you mind just going, I'm a little confused. So it's a savings of $175,000 overall. Yes. And they had that, how does that show up in their budget now? Do they make those savings in their budget?

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: No. So the DMV budget is based off of the forecasted revenue for the entire team. Bump together, they get a portion of that. It's not specific to fees or revenues that they collect. I don't imagine they have included this in the forecast estimate. I'm guessing they built their budget off of the forecast estimate. I don't know that the savings would generate a change in the forecast next year, but it would be a slight reduction to their operating

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay. It's interesting.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: But it isn't directly in their budget this year, I guess, if that answers your question.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you for that clarification. I was wrong When I said that to the DMV, we wish for that. Good to be corrected.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Okay. Section six, this is the smuggler's notch penalty. The GFO doesn't estimate out the fees and penalties just because the ideal amount is $0 but likely increasing this will generate some additional revenue. Hopefully no one- We hope it doesn't. Hope it doesn't, but I just want to point that out there. After that section 13, this one I need to look into a little more. This essentially adds that state agencies to this list of people in which the commissioner of money vehicles are notified, the commissioner of finance and management who shall issue payments, services, state agencies as applicable. I'm not quite sure the scope that this would apply to or how much it's $125 as of right now. I don't imagine this will be a large cost increase, but highlighting that here. And then the largest one that I noticed in this draft is section 16, and that is related to the purchase and use, and specifically adding trailers to Well, clarifying that trailers are under the purchase and use tax, but then also, as it stands now, trailers are capped at the amount of purchase and use. They they reach that pick by the number here. 2,000 whatever dollars. 2,486. So current practice is they pay purchase and use, but only up to the cap of 2,486. This change would add them into those list of vehicles there that are not essentially under that cap. Vehicles that, if you do the math, 6% of their purchase value is greater than 2,486 would going forward have to pay the full amount. They would no longer just be capped at 2,000. So this would generate some revenue for the state. I'm working with the DMV to try to figure out numbers on trailers registered and that pay it every year. And then also the average certain values of trailers so we can try to determine how much more purchase and use tax this would generate for the state. You did hear from a couple of people, I think yesterday, maybe, that were also talking about this. Those are the ones that we need to dig into a little bit more and look into the data before I can present a solid number.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Most of the trailers around here are registered in May. Yes. That's it. So it it would be helpful to understand what Maine does, And and I hear complaints from people all the time Yep. Saying that Okay. Know? And Maine has got some corner on the market around it, and I don't totally understand what I know that their rate is way lower than everybody else. But it would be nice to understand why the whole country loses business to me and what they do. So Sure. I can look in the main hand,

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: bring some information to the committee on that.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: That was my exact question.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Because will we get some will we lose even more people to be at the other states if

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: we don't

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: do this? Like, that's we might get a little maybe a little bit more, but we're probably gonna lose people who are registered.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: What do we gain by doing this in in you know?

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. We talked about that years ago. Right. And I think it's got something to do with you don't I don't think you have to be domiciled in May to register a truck there. That's why. Here's I think you do it. Well, no. You don't because they they just set up something in May, but, yeah, it's done.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It would be interesting to be able to it may that may be a Damian question to figure out what yeah. That's somebody to to do that. But it would be nice to expand a few minutes just to figure out what it is. I hear about it all the time. Yep.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: But she was going to.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Continuing on 17, this is another penalty for snowmobiles. So, again, just wanted to point out that there likely be some, hopefully none, but likely some from that. And then lastly, section 19, which adds this sort of one year fee for a non domiciled CDL license. Producely, we only had four and two. This would make it a little higher per year charge. I think the numbers of people that issue these every year are very low. DMV said point nine five is 16. So again, this would likely be a very de minimis.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I'm wondering when the word de minimis would come. It'll be there.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: So those are the main sections. Again, there's still some outstanding questions and some data that I need to put together an official and final fiscal note that I'll be working to get you all that shortly. Then I'll work with Ledge Council on the main and trailers, and we can work into that as well.

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Sure. Yes. I think

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I was reading something else on the snowmobile app. Did we have number of penalties?

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Didn't just because we our office doesn't normally, like, estimate out penalty because you then that one does it. I could look into that and sort of see what we have this year. I'm gonna ask to

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: ask when they came in.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah. They might be a good resource for that as well.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So we have a schedule? Yes.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Good. Tomorrow

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: morning. Perfect.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: And I also look into, sorry, 2.1, the updated draft, to the extent that the language has changed and the impact of any of the fiscal estimates with that. Thank

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: you, Mr. Chair. I'm wondering, since we are discussing the every other year inspections piece and kind of that general concept, have we gotten some numbers from the the chief financial officer yesterday? I'm wondering if we can request some kind of fiscal note or consideration since we are going to be having that conversation in general.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're gonna spend a lot of time.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Believe that I'm in on Thursday to speak about it.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Well, then find that. It's already thank you.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You're welcome.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: That's all. I had any third questions. Happy to answer them,

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: and I'll work on those things as requested. Thanks. Of course.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. Good morning. Again, I'm still Damian Leonard, still from the office of Legislative Council. So you should have a new draft 2.1 of the miscellaneous motor vehicle bill. Couple of changes that were made since the last draft. First, I added a statement of purpose since that needs to be in the bill draft. So that adds about a page to the draft. The next change in the bill and I'll go back through the sections one by one. I just wanna highlight where the changes are. In sections two and three, based on the DOC concerns raised with the language around licenses for inmates and learner's permits for inmates, the renewal of those. I've updated the language so it's tracked with the existing language on non driver IDs so that the language is the same now. An individual sentenced to serve a period of imprisonment of six months or more Yeah. Committed to the custody of the commissioner of corrections. So this would exclude detainees. I have not had a chance to run it by DOC yet, so you will wanna get them to check this. And I'll I'll touch base on that as I go through the sections.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Is this for 2.1? Yes. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, yeah, you all have a little chart that includes section by section summary and then bullet points on outstanding issues or notes about the section.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The other change here is in section five with the license plates. The section is still there, but we've taken out the proposed language that would shift us to a one license plate requirement. And so now it, again, goes back to the existing language, which says either one or two license plates as the commissioner may require noting that there are certain laws that do require two plates.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yes. It's a question for the committee, also you didn't why would we have that as one or the other?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is there ever a

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: time that would only be one or is that like the tractor trailers where they they don't have the fat plate because they have a trailer plate?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think they actually do have a fat plate. They also have it.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: They're driving

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They just want they're driving without a trailer.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Is there ever time where they would issue just one plate?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So we have created exceptions for one plate for, like, the Vermont Strong plates.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: There are two plates. Mean, I the has to be in front of the plate. So I'm just is there an ever a time where the commissioner would want or need to issue this front plate?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So there are sections of the statute where it's silent as to how many, and so I would read it as it could be one or two. There are sections of the statute where it says two plates, so I would read that as two. So the statute currently provides discretion in some instances to the commissioner. So I would propose that we clean that up if we're not gonna move to one plate to also have it to where the commissioner just that part of

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: that statute just says two plates. Pete, what we're agreeing to end up doing is having a whole discussion about plates in general. And I will say I spoke with Damian this morning and asked him if he could research what some other states do, give us some options, or if because we have a number of plate things out there. Right. So we should you should it may not end up in this bill, but in general, we're gonna have and we'll end up spending a couple of days on where we really are as a committee on with plates.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Right. Well, talk to you about opposing. Mhmm. Yep. But that's it's always been a weird part of the statute.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well and and I've totally been to but I think I get it. The whole issue of plates because I think around the table there are a lot of people, all different positions all And we do have hopefully we will get a clearer view of what DMV feels about all of these plate issues on it, and we'll have a proposal. I think the commissioner might have suggested that on the front plate, might have a proposal, and haven't heard in detail or anything, might have a proposal about opening up, letting people do various assessments, and I'm not sure how this committee will come down with that.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But we're gonna we're gonna go through all of the scenarios.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: K. That's good.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the remainder of that section deals with the coloring or tinting of license plates, and so that was left on. Those are the changes from the first draft you looked at. I can walk you back through the, you know, section by section highlights and the notes that we have for outstanding items there, if that's helpful.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I have a question about securing the license plate. The statute says you can't obscure. Yes. In the in the commissioner's department's days as a trooper, said he'd written tickets just with a clear covering. But I wondered if I don't know if that there's ever been a challenge to that. But I wondered if it's if if a clear covering is considered obscure.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the language itself says that you cannot

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I'm talking about existing statute.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Okay. And it it is in the the bill itself. So in page nine two a, the current law provides that the number plate shall be kept entirely unobscured in the numerals, and letters on the thereon shall be plainly legible at all times. So I think there's two pieces there that it has to be kept unobscured. And I think you go to sort of the definition definition of obscure, but also plainly legible. So if the clear covering makes it so that it's not plainly legible, I think that there's also grounds at that point for law enforcement to cite you.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: But if it's not, it's legible to the human eye but not to account.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I I think that our statute is not clear on that. I don't know of any case law on this. So obscure means to keep from being seen or to conceal. And so one thing to consider here is that if your concern is with obscuring it from a camera by providing something that would, you know, have glare that would would basically blank out the numerals or letters for a camera. Something like covers.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Like, you can't see Exactly. This angle, but from this angle, you can. Exactly.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We could look at, better language or or changes to the language to make it clear that we're including cameras and we're also including things where if you're looking at the plate straight on, it's clear. But if you're looking at it from an angle and looking down or if there's a light shining on it, you know, a lot of the cameras wouldn't go through like a toll booth or, you know, when there's toll overhangs, there's a flash. And if there's plastic over that, the flash will reflect on that. We can look at language on that. I've not looked at what other states do on this, but I know that the coverings are prohibited at some, but not all states. Right.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: I would think New York would have something on it because it's just tolls on bridges and everything is such a big issue, and they avoid because cost is so high. It's part of being creative on how to avoid it. So I would I would

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I'm interested in looking at what they've been doing.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I will look at

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: You know, I've certainly had constituents who have been on the other end of that where a vehicle that is not theirs has gone through, and then it's because of something they've done to the license plate. It's saying it's their license plate, and then they're getting all these fees essentially from the toll booth. Yeah, I have had a constituent who's been trying to debate the Massachusetts government around. I've never been to this part of Massachusetts. It's not my vehicle. It's with someone else. And it's their understanding is because the person has some kind

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: of selective social covering. Would that include everything? Or

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Well, that's the question. What does obscure mean if you because there are some people that just wanna, like, I don't know, make them keep the license plate clean, or maybe they're trying to prevent Well plastic covering is I've

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: seen some license plates that are particularly on the front of the vehicle that have got so beat up that it's hard to read up. Yeah. And if somebody put, I don't know, some clear plastic over it to protect it

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: And maybe it's up to the officer whether they think it's obscured. It's

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. I I I I have no real opinion on it. I'm just asking.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: My main concern is if we move to automatic traffic law enforcement, which I support for such certain circumstances, this becomes an issue. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I I will look at that. I put it on what is becoming a very long list of items to research and and follow-up with you on. Both of miscellaneous. Yeah. You guys are gonna keep me busy for the next few weeks here.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So That's what you you know, I will say this is the time of year you should expect to be busy.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is. It is. It's good to good to have lots of interesting things like this to dig into. So I'll see what I can find out for you. I know there is some multistage data out there from groups like NCSL on one plate versus two plate states, and I'll see if they have additional information and then start digging into you know, for example, what are the one plate states doing about regulations on the front plates or dealing with, you know, some of that proposals we've seen around plates to raise funds for certain issues as well as what are the states that have automated traffic law enforcement or toll systems doing about obscuring or otherwise preventing plates from being read, whether it's by a camera or a law enforcement officer. So just to back up and go through the bill really quick. Section one, as a reminder, this was the non driver IDs, and it's adding language that would clarify that you can't have a non driver ID and an operator's license at the same time. And I believe DMV testified yesterday or the day before that this is to bring us into compliance with some federal requirements to ensure that you don't have multiple state issued IDs at the same time. Is that right? Yep. Right. Sections two and three were to permit individuals who are incarcerated, so sentenced for six months or more in prison to get a replacement license in certain instances. So with the license, it's if they have a current license or a license that has expired less than three years before. With the learner's permit, it's a current learner's permit for one that expired less than two years before. The DOC has recommended updating the terminology. The most recent draft includes that language. House corrections and institutions has this scheduled for review tomorrow, so there may be some more commentary from them. And my understanding is that senate institutions is planning to look at the language, but have not put it on their agenda yet.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, we got some time.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And, of course, the chair of senate institutions is a member of this committee, so she's very aware of the issue.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I suspect she is.

[Logan (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section four is the language on insufficient funds that permits DMV to temporarily suspend a license or registration if an electronic payment does not go through. They currently have that language for checks. There was some discussion in the committee about some of the issues currently with delays that banking institutions will put on actually making funds available and how that might impact it. You know, DMP also testified about their timeline on a fourth success. And let's see. The section five we were just talking about, that's the prohibition on tinting and coloring the license plate or the numbers or letters on the plate. As I mentioned, DMV has also requested to switch to a single plate. There's also the Vermont premium license plate bill, and as the chair indicated, we'll be doing a deeper dive on license plates. Section six are the increased penalties for operating a prohibited vehicle, so a a long box truck or semi trailer in Smuggler's Notch, and that is increasing the penalties by 10 times from 1,000 for operation and 2,000 if you substantially impede traffic, I. E. Get stuck, to 10,020 respectively and adding a moving violation there, which would allow them to assess points against the operator. We do have outstanding questions about whether that penalty may be too high, and I'm gonna do some research on case law around what reasonableness of penalties and when you may have a constitutional issue. There are also other concerns that have been brought up related to the Chicanes signage and the condition of the gates that control access during the winter months. So when you're on this sheet and you say too high, you

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: mean make up the thing.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I just Yeah. Whether the proposed penalty may be too high, I should have said, or may may present constitutional issues. Apologize. This was No. Not me writing this last night. I it sounded so. The language may be less formal than than we might like. Section seven relates to the moving violation that is proposed to be added in section six, and it would add a five point assessment. As a reminder, if you get 10 points within a certain period of time, and I forget exactly how short that is, your license can then be suspended. That's the lowest level for a suspension. It's a relatively short suspension, but this would bring you halfway to a license suspension. Section eight is the language that was proposed by Copart that would permit electronic signatures on certain documents needed to provide a salvage title to the insurer when a vehicle has been declared a total loss. DMV is proposing revised language. I have not had a chance to draft it and present it to the committee for review. That will be ready by next week. So that's just a flag that this is something we'll need to go back to. And I believe you've got testimony scheduled from Copart at this point, or you're trying to get them in. And then nine would be an update to the duplicate title language that would allow the DMV to hand a person to duplicate motor vehicle title if they're actually at a DMV location. Currently, they would have to mail it. So you'd go into the DMV, and then you have to wait for the app the duplicate title to arrive in the mail. 10 does the same thing for vessels, snowmobiles, and ATVs. And I realized yesterday as I was going back through the bill that the title definition for that chapter needs to be updated because even though the chapter relates to snowmobiles, ATVs, and vessels, believe my bullet here says does not include snowmobiles and vessels. I think it actually should say snowmobiles and ATVs. But either way, it only includes one type of vehicle, and I think that's just an oversight in the definition. So just as a technical change while we're in there, that should probably be updated.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: You say the section?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So that's section 10 of the bill.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: But it wouldn't affect section so that would also go with that would be section nine and section

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's just section 10. So current section 10 is intended to allow you to hand the duplicate title for vessel snowmobiles and APPs if they're at a DMV location. However, the term that's used there, the title or certificate of title is defined to be the title of a vessel and not to include doesn't include titles to snowmobiles and ATVs. So for purposes of just ensuring the statute gets is clear and doesn't have a loophole in it that was unintended, you should likely go back and update the the definition because the whole chapter there relates to titling those three types of vehicles. Okay. But the duplicate title provision only applies to one type of vehicle the way it's written

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: right what you're saying now. Okay.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. And I

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm assuming that was just a drafting oversight as this was updated over time. So but I'll, of course, work with DMV on that language and make sure that there's no unintended consequences. So this was a, yeah, a late yesterday discovery as I was going through. The, section 11 is just a technical change to clarify which part of the superior court, the title appeals are filed in when you file them in Washington County. Section 12 is a technical change to clarify the exemptions from motor vehicle title requirements. This was a run on sentence, and so we've broken it into three parts just to make it clear what the three three items listed in the sentence are. Section 13 permits state agencies to seek a $125 reimbursement for towing costs from DMV. You got testimony about that yesterday. Section 14 is a technical change to the numbering and the section governing computation of diesel fuel tax, and this was just to split out the numbering so that each level is on a similar sort of so you don't have unrelated things at the same numbering level in there. It's just a clarity piece that DMV's counsel found. Section 15 is definitions for the purchase and use tax. It clarifies the definition of purchase price for outright purchase versus lease, makes technical changes to the definition of taxable costs for consistency with changes that we made in last year's miscellaneous motor vehicle bill around the process for determining the value of a vehicle that doesn't have clean trade in value in the JD Power values, and it adds definitions of month, year, shipping weight, and trailer. It's worth noting that DMV is proposing additional changes to this language, and I'm working with them on the language for those changes now, and that should be available again probably next week is my guess. We we have to find a time when we can sit down and work through that language. And then sixteen is clarifying how the weight is determined for trucks subject to purchase and use tax and clarifies that trailers are subject to purchase and use tax, and would exempt trailers from the cap on purchase and use tax. My understanding is DMV will be proposing or is proposing new language that would actually apply that max tax cap to trailers, and I'm working with them on the language around that as well.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: And I don't know if there's a way in the language to clarify what we're talking about trailers and trailers, meaning tractor trailers and trailer to all your two snowmobile.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. That there are ways to clarify that. And I think that is something that should probably be a point of continuing discussion. What are we trying to capture? And that's something I'll be working DMV on to get make sure that what I draft matches what they're intending to propose, and then whatever you approve matches what you intend to have people on. So that I I'm working just to try to make sure that we're clear about that. And this may also you may need to also make updates to make sure that we clarify when sales and use tax doesn't apply because we don't want to have a double taxation instance.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: But

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We will want to have a broader discussion to understand what other states around us have to keep the meetings.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And I I have a note to look at Maine. So right before I came up here to testify, I pulled up their secretary of state website for registration of trailers and semi trailers with the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. So and I'll start digging into what the law is and what their taxes are and so forth.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It's wherever you are, you see a main plate.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Right. And it's only on tractor. It's not what I've done. But I could be wrong. I think Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. And there It would it would be good to just get enough.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And this is also going to those tractor trailer plates are likely apportioned plates, which means they're under the international registration plan, and I'm gonna need to dig in more to make sure I understand how that registration works and why there may be a benefit to registering it in one state of government than the other and how how that might impact us with the fees and so forth. The, section 17 is, language to increase the penalty for a snowmobile that's not registered or lacks a, TMA decal. It's the trail maintenance assessment decal, and this was proposed by Vast. I think you have testimony scheduled if it hasn't already happened. Section 18 would permit state and municipal employees without a CDL to operate heavy trucks in an emergency. DMV may be proposing some revised language regarding how that emergency would be determined or the type of emergency there.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I got a a note, but I don't have initial language on that yet. So I just wanted to make sure that that's flagged in case they do end up proposing that language. And then 19 is the one year fee for a one year nondomicile commercial driver's license. And then '20 is the effective date, which is currently just set at July 1. Depending on what you add and what you do with this bill as we heard yesterday on the inspections piece, this effective date is likely to need to change or at least become, you know, more nuanced. Speaking of inspections, I wanted to note that yesterday, the federal court that's hearing the case on the New Hampshire inspections issued a preliminary injunction preventing them from stopping inspections while they're waiting here from the EPA. And I have not had time to read the full decision yet, but I can fill you in on that if and when you return to the inspection discussion. So we are gonna return to that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It does bring up the broader discussion of, particularly around, the environmental pieces. It would be nice to find some state that has or a couple of states that don't have inspections, how they handle that when they're they entered the agreements with the environment. So we have examples of what places have done.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I think the the UPM research outline Yeah. Highlighted some states that do emissions but not safety inspections. Yep. And that's on my list is to go to their laws and look at how they implement that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Get the people that put together that report from you. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: They can come next week. Yep. We should. There's of those states that do have inspections or have limited inspections, but also require air quality testing, 15 of them out of the 20 said do it every other year. So that is one thing, because New Hampshire's trying to make it. You don't have to do it at all. At all. But

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Look for your happiness. Yeah. I'm calling your. This is gonna get more reception.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We did.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I mean,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: you know, it's a goal to just get information so we have examples of and we can pick through. I think at this point, what really need is a motion to, you know, move the bill to vote. And I think

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Is she our clerk?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think so.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: She is. I have experience. You have experience. Yeah. You've got the

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: One of us make a motional of a mistake in those?

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Chair in my foot.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: No. You can't. Oh,

[Megan (Committee Assistant/AV support)]: do you want that? No. We don't.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Well, I'm happy to make the motional. Okay.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Let me get the Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: I would move that we introduce draft 2.1

[Al Johnson (Boating Law Administrator, Vermont State Police Marine Division)]: Yep.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Of the DMV miscellaneous bill.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep. And then we'll come back here. Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We have a motion. We have a second from. I think we need Andy and

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Some chairs might get some chairs. Alright.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Senator White?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Senator Harris? I'm gonna well, hold it open for Wendy. Yeah. We'll hold it up. Senator Perchlik?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yes. Senator Brennan? Yes. Senator Westman? Yep.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: K.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And I'll report it. But Oh. But, you know, it's coming back here anyways, and and probably when we get around to report it, we'll break it up a little.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: Good. And I'll be happy to report it. I think I just

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Just report will be that we're taking it back.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna go up and see, you know, just make sure that

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Think at this point, we should check with the secretary about how to process it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. I was if you give me the draft, I'll take it up. That's the first thing I was going to do.

[Sen. Patrick "Pat" Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. Do you have

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Vice Chair)]: a It has to go to draft. Yeah. But He has to write a draft. They don't I

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: think they go through to to print it, and then it comes in like a regular bill, and it gets introduced and then referred back. I will email drafting ops right now. I think there's actually, they've sent out guidance. I'll I'll follow-up with you on the not on video.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Slightly ahead of schedule. So why don't we take ten minutes, and if we could be back here a little before eleven