Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is Senate Transportation, and we are going back live with Damian Leonard from of Ledge Council, and we are going to finish up today, at least today's case on s two eleven.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Hey. Good morning. For the record, I'm Damian Leonard from the Office of Legislative Council. So as I think was commented on during the earlier testimony, this is a pretty straightforward bill, at least in terms of what's written on the page. And it it really shifts the vehicle inspection requirement from once each year to once every two years. And then it would update the charge from $8 to $16, and you heard a lot of testimony from DMV earlier as to how that would impact their finances because of the sort of staggered nature of the inspections between new and existing vehicles. The transition period there, so this language, when senator White and I worked on this language, we set the default date of 07/01/2026 knowing that it would probably need to change. So that date could be updated to 01/01/1926, 01/01/1928, whatever becomes appropriate. I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: think we can't do a 01/01/1926.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry. 01/01/1927.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I think that's a little Wow.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think '27. But

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Fair enough. Yep. And I'm not sure

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: retroactively. I'll see myself.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I'm sorry.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Not that easily.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the the bigger legal questions here really come with the question of how does this so there's the big policy issue of should we keep safety inspection? Should they be every two years? The enforcement issues that you raised, some of the procedural and sort of operational issues like stickers, color of the stickers, where they're located on the windshield, as I learned this morning, the adhesive of the stickers, how long that lasts.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: there there are a number of issues there. From a legal standpoint, there's also issue of federal preemption on the emissions inspection. So currently, Vermont has submitted a plan to the EPA as part of our air quality implement plan. So we've submitted part of our state implementation plan is around inspection and maintenance of motor vehicles, and that ties in directly to Vermont's current annual inspection process where we do emissions inspection. We are in what's called the an ozone transport region for purposes of the Clean Air Act. And because we are in the ozone transport region, we are required to have a state implementation plan. And part of that plan is the inspection and maintenance program. So you likely have heard that New Hampshire, our neighbors to the east who are also in the ozone transport region, recently repealed their, annual inspection requirement. They got rid of the inspection requirement altogether. Are currently, they have currently been sued, by the maker of their emissions inspection testing equipment. And I think that lawsuit has been joined by a group representing inspection mechanics or inspection stations. But the lawsuit hinges on whether or not they get a waiver from their EPA requirement. And they have, applied, as of November 5, they had a a release on the New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services website stating that they, are currently in the process of, asking EPA to eliminate the inspection and maintenance requirements of their state implementation plan. It's not clear if that will happen or how quickly it will happen, but if the EPA approves that, then the lawsuit, as I understand it, and I have not closely reviewed the papers in the lawsuit, but my understanding is contingent on whether or not that's there because the main claim is that they're in violation of the Clean Air Act. So this is something that you need to look look into. DEC would likely need to come in and speak to the issue, and it may be something where looking at the implementation date going forward, you may wanna push out that implementation date if you wanna allow time to request the waiver, or you can do the New Hampshire approach of repeal it now and ask for permission after the fact. So

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Go ahead. Is our plan been adopted?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I was looking on the EPA's website for approved air quality implementation plans, and I do not see the inspection and maintenance portion of the SIP on the website. I don't know how frequently it's updated, and I don't know what the status approved for,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I don't know, a decade.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So the There are a variety of documents here. Many of them date back to the last decade.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I see We can have a DC because when we talked to DC DEC about this before, at that time, which is maybe four or five years ago, they were saying, oh, we think our ship's gonna finally get approved and don't do this because it might jeopardize or should be approved. But I thought I heard that they still haven't got approval.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I don't see any approvals from the twenty twenties here. I see and with motor vehicles, the last approvals I see are from 1980. Yeah. Actually, my birthday. I'm not gonna say that on on the last.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: My understanding that since it hadn't been approved part of the plan, we wouldn't be in violation, but we could submit a new plan that doesn't include it, and that can also be under review for the next twenty years.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But I think at this, you know We could you see us.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. They they would be better

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: experts on this. We we got to get that it would be some it would be interesting if there was somebody that could talk us through what's happened in New Hampshire and what they're I really don't understand the inspection, the on the ground system. I do know they plugged the car in, they have the whole electronic system that is there. Does that get affected by going to two years? So I hadn't even thought about that until you just talked.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. The it's a good question. I have not had a chance to read the 119 page SIP on a downshift and maintenance.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But you said when when I clicked in my mind when you said New Hampshire in the inspection stations, I think we paid for the equipment to go in the inspection stations. So And I I think that's right. If we didn't pay for all of it

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: They had to pay for the tablet. They might have had to do that. I I

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: think the inspection station paid for the tablet. We required them to pay for it. It was like a thousand bucks or something that day because they put up a big

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: See, I don't understand all of exactly what that is. And and if if the inspection stations are suing in New Hampshire, does that mean they're suing to get back their money for what could happen?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So I I don't know their specific interests in the case. I think with the equipment maker, likely, they're losing out on ongoing revenue from replacement maintenance and supply of equipment. And with the inspection stations, it's likely if if they join the suit, which I think is what I heard, it's likely they're arguing that they're harmed.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: There's somebody from that we could talk to that understands this from New Hampshire?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think we could certainly reach out to them. I don't know a specific person off top of my head, but it looks like their Department of Environmental Services is the group that is reaching out to EPA on the Clean Air Act end. And I can look see if I can get Megan some additional contact information, but I'm not sure who the person would be.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Expect expert at BEC on this. I will find out. I'll talk to

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: our attorneys in house. I know I've I've been working internally with Ellen Chikowski from our office who's works on the Clean Air Act issues for us, and I'll ask her if your counterpart would be over at, DEC.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. It used to be Megan and then she's gone.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thanks. So, a question about just comparisons between Vermont and New Hampshire. Can, and this might be a question for you, is a way, know we can, it can be done, but it would be really helpful to have a list of all of the most relevant items. So inspections, but also registration and know what New Hampshire's doing, what Vermont's doing, New York, Massachusetts, just the floor.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think you're talking to him.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Am I talking to you? Because you're talking to JFO thing,

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: to to have all that information would just be really helpful to have

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you You're looking for a breakdown of what the requirements are in our New England and New York

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I want the rates. The the the dollar. Well, the dollars, Logan's gonna

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That's what I was thinking.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We we need a fiscal note for Yeah. Yeah.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So Logan can address internal fiscal issues. Either one of us can pull up statutory rates for you. It it will take some time, and we do have a lot on our plates right now. So I just wanna, you know, note that. I have numerous drafts, both your motor vehicle bill and the t bill, which are being introduced simultaneously that I'm I'm working on. And I know Logan's working on fiscal notes for each of these or fiscal analysis for each of these pieces that comes in, but we can try to pull that together. I know you have, you know, you have to introduce this bill this week, but then you'll be able to continue working on it. And so we could put this together, you know, with enough lead time. I just I just can't prompt

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: you. No. No. And I wouldn't I I wasn't thinking that you would be

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: the one who would pull

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: that together because it's it's really the financial stuff.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Oh, Logan, it's gonna have to do and her when she came in, if we need on the record, but what she said this morning about

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I came in at the end of that.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: But

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: That was not

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: She didn't she verbally talked about, but it would be helpful to have it down on paper or, you know, someplace so we can post what she did and then behind it, a fiscal note from Joint Fiscal talking about those pieces.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So just to note, the ozone transport region for purposes of the Clean Air Act is New England and then down to the Mid Atlantic as far south as Maryland and Virginia. So that's it's sort of the Northeastern quadrant.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: States that have eliminated inspections. What are they doing for alternatives to emissions and inspection?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So it it really varies. My understanding is that at last count, and I don't know if this includes New Hampshire or not, Kelly Blue Book had, as of last year, said that 29 states require emissions inspections. Yeah. And I think senator White testified earlier today that rough roughly half of states require safety inspections. Is that right?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, I

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: just wanted to say Vermont, UVM, they're students that will study on this exact topic, and they it was published in December, which actually breaks down all of what they do. So I hope that you won't have to spend a lot of time on it, but I asked Megan to post it. But yeah, there are 15 states that have non every year safety inspections and also do and this is where I don't know. Biennial, I believe, is every two years. So okay. So there are 15 states that have biennial emissions tests along with no safety inspections.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And then it's worth noting too that there are also some states where the emissions testing is only in certain counties.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. Just out of apartment. They just out of.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: it's a metropolitan metropolitan statistical area. Seeing that. What would be interesting to see is those states that don't have in inspections that are part of the 30 odd states. There must be but there there must be some of your 29 that do have emissions. So if we can isolate the states that don't have inspections but still have emission standards, what are they doing? They must have an answer to the question.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. And UVM did a whole study on this exact question. And so I'm having two I had two copies printed to come to us, but I can have one for everyone.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's great. Because if we had that and we can isolate, we could find somebody, find out what those states are doing because they must have a bad. Yeah.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah, and when you said 15 states have a biannual, think 15 states have biannual or annual, there's some have annual, some have biennial.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So, says, so here we go. What it says in the report is states with emissions testing, so they found that 27 states have some form of legislation that require vehicle emission testing, and it varies. And then it looks like this is from we're gonna have to read it because there's Who?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Emission Who wrote vehicle for ABOVMs?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Transportation Center? From

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: the title of it is the legislative research service.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So Could we get them NCLS did for half an hour and and talk about the report.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: I think NCLS has done work. Yeah. Did they say? Yeah. Said LS. Okay.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: But it looks like 15 of the 27 states that have annual requirements for safety inspections also have an emissions test.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: But it's not statewide. Possibly. They

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: call out a special list of folks as well.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Sometimes it's just that they are pushing going bad in their metropolitan area so the rest of

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: the state doesn't have to do emissions.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, 22 of 27 states only require emissions testing in counties that include or surround major metropolitan areas. Most of those areas are designated as non attainment counties or Nantuckas.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Can you track

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: down I've lived in front of the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: UBM report or from NCSL or or and we should probably get a few minutes where they can highlight what states it does.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So I'm seeing

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I k. Great. I I think it would be good to get either the UVM report and get somebody in here or we don't have to spend forever on it, but if they've done the report, they can highlight the report to us, and we can isolate those dates, and we can at least have a conversation based upon because there has to be a path here in there. Someone else is dread.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So the report is up on the committee web page right now. Yep. And then, Megan, do you have a contact with the legislative research service? Great. Perfect. So that would be my my best recommendation, and then I will dig into the data that's in the report and start looking at the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: whole think we you you know, I'll say this for Megan. I don't think we need to have, you know, this is not at all a morning thing, but I think they can give the highlights to us in half an hour. And then we can figure out who we might talk to based upon that.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And I'll plan to email Megan information on the DC contact person. Mhmm. And I'll see if I can find any information on New Hampshire. It may just be reaching out to the commissioner's office and asking them for someone.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Mister chair, I'm wondering, I know you said we were gonna have a hearing potentially on this.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: So I guess what when you said hearing, do you mean a public hearing? Because that that would be I think if we scheduled that, that would be

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. We have this. I I see no way that we can move ahead with this without scheduling the public hearing.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Maybe we could do it with our house rents as well. Would be great.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There are several bills in the house as well, including a two year inspection bill.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Oh. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Wait. I think you're right.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I know it's got introduced. So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: yeah. I if we're gonna move the bill regardless of what anybody else does, I think we I'm off depending on what DEC puts forward in here and depending on I'm more interested in seeing if natural resources would be at a hearing with us because I don't want them standing up on the floor and questioning. I, you know, I want I want the committee across the hall, and I suspect there'll be people at a hearing that might be interested in the admissions piece. Patricia.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Did you all talk this morning about just the impact on the EMBA of not having Okay. So that's that's that's something we need

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to talk about. Mhmm. Yeah.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: I asked that question. Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. And I think your next witness is Patrick Murphy who can also speak to that issue. Mhmm.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. And but, you know, we're gonna have to talk about timing of the hearing. I have a with white mask if you want it. For who? White mask. Did I give you that?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: It's not that

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: simple. What's what's the Megan, what's the time when we post that hearing? How long does I

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: think you have to do it a week in advance.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Can you check that out for us?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yes. On the document that I wrote.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. I

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: don't if you know where to

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: find it. I know. I don't. I have to

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is there a night It's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: a at least a week.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Is there a night of the week that's better for men or something for men?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Or not better. Sunday week. Maybe Wednesday.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: K. Well, next week. Or the week after. But but I'm just asking, is there a night that's totally out for anyone? This is where

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Well, just a suggestion. Wednesday night's Farmers'

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Night, and it's pretty tough.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Oh, yeah. That's true.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Parking wise and stuff. So Wednesday Thursday

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: sometime during Yes. And then Tuesdays, we have chairs.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But But chairs meeting only goes to and Yeah. And I would think, particularly, you have people that are working

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We probably not don't wanna start at six to eight would be better. Yep.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Six to eight on Tuesday. We if you tell us what Thursday we can Okay.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So this would be a public hearing that people sign anybody sign up.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep. Anybody sign up for it.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And we don't comment. We just take We don't. Input. Yeah. But I Oh, you could have offers.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I thoroughly expect when we figure out from DEC what that all looks like, that that it may be too full. You may have people asking about or commenting about the environmental piece. And probably have a lot of people show up. That we

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: need And this one's for inspection? Well, it'd be for inspection. Station that we have at 266.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: S 266 is inspected. It's anyway I

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: have something in natural resources.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Hero.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So there. Yeah. He wrote through. At some point So today being a health of job. Mhmm. Other thing we're going to you me is a framework for the section by section of the dismissal of the DMV bill. I think other than hearing back on the two sections dealing with licenses and restrictions, other than hearing back from your committee, I feel pretty confident that we're ready to go. We want to hear back from you, particularly if there's there was a suggestion about some language changes. Yes.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And we

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: talked to folks in the hall, and so I so we're gonna schedule a time for them to come in. I don't know what the like we're I don't we're not taking possession. We're just talking about it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But give us some language. We can tuck it in here. Okay. And if anybody said anything, we can get the chair of of institutions to stand up on the floors. You took Sure. Get that committee to get up. Done.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. With respect to the issue identified on the the language issue, the I've been speaking internally. If the the the their concern is about going providing the access to this to detainees because you don't know when they're coming out or going to be released. And so the language that currently exists for the non driver ID, which is an individual sentence to serve a period of imprisonment of six months or more, I believe that will work, and I can run it by them. I've also been in contact with our judiciary team on this, and then the house has scheduled me for Friday afternoon in house corrections and institutions on this issue, but I know we need to move the bill sooner. So we can either move it with

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: When do we have to get that out of here?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You need to have the bill introduced by Friday, which means I think it needs to be out of here by Thursday. We should confirm that with the senate secretary.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yep. Actually, I think Saturday is our deadline.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. But you don't have a floor session on Saturday, so you need to have it on the floor introduced by Friday.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I I don't know why we did it on Saturday. You

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: but we did it. Your your rule says January 31, so it changes from year to year.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I we're not the bill's not gonna be perfect when it's in No.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And we can always leave it up.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And we've got a couple of issues that when we I I need from you in my a chart. Here's where we are, and we'll get this start, and we'll get it introduced. You know, I need it. It's all gonna be there are a couple that we had I wanted to have you draft in some minutes. Yes. There's So I Yeah. I we we need we need to get some form where we are, and and so you and I need to talk about that. Is there anything in the bill so far that anybody around the table has seen that they are just totally dead on, and they don't want us to dodge that? I'm I'm not in favor of moving to what?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: To what? One place. Yes.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, we're gonna have a broader conversation about all of that. If it got drafted with that That's right. And and oh, but we here's what here's the other thing we can get. We can get it drafted and have that put in front of the committee as an amendment, and then it's not in the draft to start with. And but knowing that we're gonna we've I have asked the commissioner what's your position what's your position on the bill that's on the wall to I expressed to him today when he says, well, we'll just do something where everybody can print their own planes. I'm kind of not in favor of people willy nilly printing plates to put on the front cars, personally. The committee may come down someplace else, and I but I I just don't like that idea, and I would have to be convinced of that. They will present their proposal on plates, and then we can have a general conversation about what blades will look like. I quite frankly just say this to the committee and the reaction from here, I thought the Vermont Strong thing was pretty well done when it was done. And if we did something that was like Vermont Strong, and Corrections Industry printed those plates too, I believe. Can you remember? Well,

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: the Vermont Strong, I'm not sure where those came from. They kind of weaned themselves out of that deal, haven't they?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Corrections has reduced a lot of they've gotten rid of almost all of the workshops that they had because

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But they still do play

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I don't think they do. Three m three m

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: does Or that maybe they supply the materials for they were. But three m Who prints the plates

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: for the I I I don't know because I but I do I'm, you know, 90% sure that corrections doesn't do that anymore because that was Windsor, actually.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Some of them check into it, I I remember, you know, the white the license plates that you can't read anymore was a bad run from three m, and then replace them for free if people would just ask. So that's how I know three m is

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'd like I personally find out. Order of somebody going through somebody if you're gonna have front plates printed would be a good idea.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. I think the state should maintain a fair amount of authority in that process.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's our job. I'm kind of there with you. I think that's what I'm saying in our digital. So we need to, you and I need to talk about Sunchart. What do we need to do and get a pathway on that DMV bill? And I think what I just heard from Andy is we should take and take the one plate idea, draft it as an amendment, and if we wanna add it in later, but it's controversial enough where the draft coming out about the miscellaneous DMV bill will not include that. We had a couple of judiciary issues. What was the third one that we had was that

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: We were concerned about the cost of the towing section thirteenth, but I don't

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: think we don't need to include it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. Think yeah. But there was a third one. Was it a natural resources issue?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Let's see. There was you had questions about the insufficient funds piece, concerns about that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, that that I think we can work out. You know? I

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yep. There's this.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. The stockages in smuggler's notch.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But we'll put that in. Yeah. Yeah. We'll keep that in.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: It would also be definitely in, but, yeah, just pick one out of room and bring the towing.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Let's see. I have to update the electronic signatures with language for salvage titles with changes from the department.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think we had some question about it doesn't say anywhere that they're salvage titles, and we've got people that feel like they bought a car and then afterwards figured out. So That may be more of a proceed operational question for DMV. They came in and they said that it was they say something about rebuild, but I think some people get confused.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So I think there's up in in in gonna come back to it with more information than you Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's what I thought they said.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well so, yeah, that's when you get when you have a you know, let's say you've got a flood vehicle, so it's toll loss, You get a salvage title. You can basically refurbish the vehicle and then get a rebuilt title for it. And I don't know how clear it is on the document. The you know, never having had title to one of those vehicles, but that would probably be be worth looking at the document and seeing you could add in additional language in the statute requiring changes to the document. You do have Let's see. The other piece in here, there were questions about that I raised yesterday about the purchase and use and sales and use tax overlap for trucks and the current regulations for the Department of Taxes has, then that needs to be sorted out. It doesn't necessarily need to be sorted out before your first draft.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No. That gets That doesn't have to there were a couple of issues. One had judiciary pieces.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Mhmm. Yeah. And you're talking about the language you wanted as a

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yep.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I would like that separate. There was another piece I thought it was with natural resources. It overlapped with them, but but not sure.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That would be the emissions testing, I think. Just

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: But I think what I've heard now is let's take the plates out. We'll do that and and have that as an amendment too.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: What I mainly was trying to do is make sure, like, in judiciary, that they don't get the we don't have to ship the whole bill over there. We can just put the amendment in front of them, and then we don't have to present the whole bill to judiciary.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Well There's

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: the DUI piece that we did?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yes.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Those are the DUI piece. Aren't even in the draft.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. There those are what we call internally orphan language. So it's it's something that can be added by the committee later.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. That's a new amendment.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So it would be a committee part of the committee's report if you get green light

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: from That's what I see of the amendment. And then they don't have to get our whole bill, but we want their opinion. Mhmm.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I mean, I I could see us voting out this bill now just so we can get on the floor. It was just a draft. Right?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: We couldn't we couldn't introduce it without sending it we don't have it out of committee by then.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You have to have it out of committee by tomorrow, so it can get on the calendar for introductory So

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: put a draft together for tomorrow Yeah. And then we will vote it out of here, then it'll be sent back to us.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So I can very quickly take what I've got, update it to take out the license plate language if that's the only change, and get that through editing and to Megan by the end of the day so it can be voted tomorrow. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And then we'll vote that out, and then we'll come back to us, and we can work on that draft. Thank you.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And then, you know, I know there are other proposals that are out there. I think you have two proposals from senator White on the calendar tomorrow and others.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So And you can add those on his amendments. Yep.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Great. K.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Alright. Patrick?

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Do you want me to stick around for this?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think you can even get your draft ready.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's not what I was saying.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Here's your time wisely.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Appreciate that. Yeah.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: He goes out of the bus stop all the time. It's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: a great bus stop. It's a great building, actually.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Traveling all the time.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Are you sitting on the street in front of there?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Find myself there often. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You need a hat.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Is the glare too much? Oh, for the record, Patrick Murphy, state policy director for the Vermont Agency of Transportation. We're just gonna pick up where we left off or thereabouts, from last week, and sort of work through any of the questions that that you all, have or or had as as you were listening to testimony from from other states and, consultants and the like. So I'll share my screen here. Can you see this okay?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yep. Yep. Great.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So where we had started the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: print's pretty small, and your colors are kind of fading into everything from an old person's eyes. Okay. Alright. Can you make it bigger? There you go.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Okay. So, where we had started last week was, there was a, mile space user fee or road usage charge guide that had been developed with the support and direction of consultants that we worked with on our initial design for the mileage based user fee, CDM Smith. And so this was taking the lessons that had been learned from other states that were early adopters of this and applying them so that other states could learn from it. So we did benefit a great deal from what other states have done that you heard from over the past several weeks. And then we had described sort of the comparisons between those different states and our initial process for coming to the proposal that we did. So we had a road usage charge study that began in the 2021. And that sort of narrowed down from a list of about seven different scenarios, what made the most sense from Vermont. And then from there, we performed more of a technical analysis. So we went through these slides here. And then we're just beginning to get into, sort of the decision making points that we had, from, from more of a technical policy standpoint. So the first was, this was the framework that we used, and that helped sort of develop the implementation plan that we submitted to the legislature back in 2024. So rather than read the whole report, there is a lot of information just packed into these, this slide deck that could be helpful to see where we made different decisions and why. So the first of these is just who would be the authorized agency. And as we talked about last week, the most from the cost effectiveness point of view, the most cost effective was just going with a state administered system. You saw from other states that they use a commercial account manager, in some cases, multiple account managers, and that that has not produced the kind of net revenue return that that we would expect here in Vermont. Sometimes like I think Utah had or Virginia had talked about as, as high as 40% administrative costs. And so this was a big piece of keeping things in house within our existing systems, within existing processes, trying to keep things as simple as possible also lends itself to making things more effective.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So Patrick, in that 40% number in Virginia and they're doing it, and I think the device in the car in Virginia was like, if I'm correct, $75 comes to mind or something like that. When we get Imba put in place in January, what will the administrative cost be to our drivers versus what it would cost in like Virginia?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, so in the case of Virginia, assume that the state assumed that cost. I think you heard in testimony. So, it's not being passed through, but what we're expecting for administrative costs on our end of things is somewhere between 3.55%. And then as you have more vehicles enrolled over time that that number comes down to maybe somewhere around 2.5 to 3%.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So, higher, of course, then.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: You've got a question from Andy. Two to 5%

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: of what? Do you

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Of the net, it's 2.5 to 5% of the overall revenue that's brought in, growth revenue.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Of the amount of fees?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah. So

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: higher than the gas tax, but significantly lower than some of the more technology heavy solutions that have been piloted elsewhere. So our model more closely reflects what you heard from Hawaii, and for that reason, it is, you know, Hawaii is moving toward a mandatory program and, found that this is for them as well, the more cost effective way to do things. Any other questions on sort of this slide here?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: No, go ahead. Thank you.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So we we, you know, performed a technical analysis. We've we've worked with, both, vendors to understand the their capabilities and where there were gaps, what we would need to to build off of. And in part, is how we also came to what our proposal is now for, for the initial myelospace user fee. So we, we already have, the odometer reading data that we would be getting from parts and who manages the annual vehicle inspections. And then because a lot of the work had been done to upgrade our IT core systems with FAST, we already are able to do the kind of basic things that we would need to, in order to implement a program where, where we development work needs to happen is in the being able to have the fast system VT trips receive that odometer data and then appropriately apply a MySpace user fee.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: What is the API?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Would have this. It's a basically, I don't know what the, off the top of my head, something processing, automated processing, something, but it's basically to be able to, have the two systems talk to one another, so that, you know, when you have odometer reading data that shows up in the parsons system, that it would be then able to send that to the fast VT trip system in an automated way, and fast would be able to receive that and and have it integrated basically.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Okay.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: He's got a question.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Just back on the last slide, those procedures seemed, it seems doable, which is nice.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm sorry?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I said I hope so. Yeah, that's

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, yeah, but it's not like we don't, I wasn't sure how we were going to get the revenue, but combining it with the registration process, that definitely makes a lot of sense and goes on the same invoice. So it's great. Thank you. Maybe I'll talk about that,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: but I think that's a question too.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Patrick, do you have

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: a contingency plan for say taking the photo of the odometer in case we go to every other year inspections?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: We are working through that with FAST. As I understand it, we do have the capability to be able to, to have vehicle drivers take a photo of the odometer readings and be able to then use that as a way to pay as you go. Because I do want to emphasize on Senator Harrison's last point that the, the true up is, happens at, the registration process. So any outstanding sort of balances would happen at the registration process, but the intent behind the fee is to, as closely as we can replicate the payment frequency of the gas tax so that people aren't having to pay up upfront in one big lump sum. And that was a key part that came out of the initial road uses charge study that from an equity perspective, we wanted to have people be able to pay as you go. So they weren't hit with that big fee. And so in our plans for the design of this, intended to have photo capture be a possibility for people so that they could pay as you go. I don't know. I can't speak right now to what the possible impacts would be moving to a two year inspection process. I think we have to get more into the development work to understand the different issues that might come up and how we would work around that. I can't really see all of you, so if you have any questions, just.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I don't

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: see any hands. We'll interrupt you when.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So determining what the subject vehicles were was obviously a key decision. The road use charge study was looking at both electric vehicles, but also plug in hybrids, and then just highly fuel efficient vehicles as the fleet has gradually become more efficient. It was determined that the, what made the most sense was starting with fully electric vehicles because they hadn't been paying any sort of fee up in to that point, fuel tax at least to a mileage fee. And so, with the plug in hybrids, there are complications of not knowing how much someone has traveled on electricity versus gas. And, and there are just more challenges with making a fairest system at this point when you move to the entire fleet to whether it be ICE vehicles, conventional hybrids, plug in hybrids. So the thought was start small with a group, make sure that we're able to do this well, and then be able to, phase some of these other vehicle classes in at a later point. Well, in terms of rate setting, we've talked, quite a bit about this at different points. UVM Transportation Research Center is working on, a proposed, rate setting, methodology. I just reviewed a draft this morning, and so you should have that within the next week or two for your consideration and, and if there are follow-up questions, so we'll schedule some testimony for those folks to come in, present on sort of their methodology and what they looked at to come to it. And then there can be some questions back and forth if you need more analysis to try and figure out what you all want to set as a rate to begin the program. But they'll also have some data and reporting on what the estimated or projected impacts will be on households of different types throughout the state of Vermont.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So this was done before we had the infrastructure fee. That's why it says it's there's no existing surcharges.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes. Yeah. This was, this is sort of the framework that we use to begin, working towards, that implementation plan that we submitted to, to you all in 2024. So before there is even any discussion of a of a flat fee. It's just to to give you a sense of the kinds of things that we considered. Yeah.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: One quick one, Patrick, the, on the other page you mentioned a surcharge, which we were just talking about on electric vehicles, would that, I think it's $89 now additional, does that sound right?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes, yep.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So that's the charge you're talking about,

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: not any addition to that?

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: It would be an addition.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: It would be an addition to that.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, so the way the language is written in last year's T bill, as well as how we have thought about it, is that the mileage based user fee would replace the annual EV infrastructure fee, because it is a fairer method to be able to capture somebody's actual usage of the highway infrastructure.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: So now I'm on partial electric vehicles?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: The partial electric vehicles would remain in place according to the

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah, that's what I was talking about, so that's an $89 surcharge.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Right now the, the, the plug in hybrids are charged at half the, battery electric vehicle rate, so they are at 44 and a half dollars.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: And that would stay, stay that way?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That would stay that way unless you all decided to change that in any, in any way.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Okay.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: You know, there are different ways of, you know, to calculate out what the lost revenue is. And so there, you know, I think the way that the committee came to the EV infrastructure fee was as a bridge to this bridge, where there was a desire not to establish a fee that was so high that it would you know, be unfair and a lot to take on right at, you know, all at one lump sum, but with the Myospaced user fee where you're able to space payments out and more closely reflect how people pay for the gas tax, that we can get closer to what people are actually using in terms of transportation infrastructure. So I think those, to to your point, I think that those two fees were set intentionally lower than what the, you know, sort of what we're losing in, potential revenue.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: I didn't want to muddy the waters, but I'm thinking going forward in the future, I'm just thinking out how you would assess a hybrid plug in that's currently paying $44 You know, if we went universal on this in the future, it wouldn't matter I guess, but I was thinking just some of those, I'll give you an example, my wife has a hybrid, gets 14 miles to a charge, Don't ask me why, what good it is, but that's what it gets. So it wouldn't matter going forward, guess. Unless I'm missing something.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, so

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: you can have a plug in hybrid that, you know, doesn't have a a huge amount that can travel on electric, charge, but in some places, many of your trips may maybe as as many as half your trips are gonna be sort of shorter ones, maybe the grocery store or, you know, something. So you'd you'd be surprised how how much mileage could be done even on a on a lower level of charge. But but other states that have come in to to testify recently have also different methods for trying to account for the difference with plug in hybrids, and we talked a bit about, you know, the notion, I think, of fuel tax credits, where you can calculate out what that difference is, based on a mileage rating, and, and then be able to assess a fee accordingly. So, we can talk more about, that as, as we get into the statutory framework and, and what if any, changes you might want to propose to the plugin fee.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Go ahead. And Patrick, are you guys going to be submitting a statutory bill or language for the T bill or maybe you already have in house that would outline some of the stuff?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: We haven't submitted it yet to the house. We will be. In part it's contingent on to the direction that, the committees want to go in, in terms of the rate setting. So we're going to, ideally be able to submit rate setting report memo, what call what you will in the next week or two, and then you'd be able to have some discussion around that and that would influence what statutory language we would propose.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: If you want my 2¢, we should always start with EVs and figure that out and not the complications of the plug in.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, in

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: the high mileage. You know, hybrids and stuff, I would wait for that until the second stage.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That, that is our proposal that this will start just for electric vehicles. We, we learn from that initial group of, you know, what's basically about twelve thirteen thousand right now.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: And then, and then, you know, we can we can talk more about how you stage a transition, but

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: it 12,000 EVs or does that include the plug in hybrids?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: There's, yeah, the latest numbers I think are almost 13,000 fully electric vehicles.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Okay, good.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yep. So we're at about 21,000 plug in electric vehicles altogether.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And they have to have our approval of the rates to be able to institute this in January.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Correct. So

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: we can dive into the rate setting more in about a week, week and a half or so when you have time on your schedule. User choice was an important part of the discussions that we had about the design of this. There, you know, there are some limitations because with user choice there, there are more costs. So when you're, you know, allowing for the more technology heavy devices, either to be installed or to be able to pull the telematics data from the vehicle that becomes, you incrementally more, more expensive. There was the decision to use just the odometer data, but then also to hopefully be able to provide a photo capture and reporting system to people to be able to pay as you go. It, it was a really important piece of this to have payment frequencies, different payment frequencies allowed. So some might want to just be able to pay right up front at at the point of registration or renewal, but others might just feel more comfortable to pay as you go, or to set it up as a monthly payment. So that's what we'd like to be able to provide. And then there's, you know, we want to be able to sort of follow all our existing processes. People should be able to pay using the same methods they are able to use right now for other fees at DMV. And that was, you know, also an important choice to keep everything as work into the same sort of business model that we have now at DMV. Privacy was a big issue that was identified in our survey work and for that reason, and in a lot of other states jurisdictions. And so that was one of the primary reasons for singling out the odometer based method is as our chosen one. But there are things that, you know, obviously, we have to make sure that we protect as part of the program whenever you have personal data, and so that will will be addressed through the design of the program with our two IT vendors. And then compliance and enforcement was another thing to tackle that we talked through and, you know, we, we want the to recognize that it's the vehicle that has to come into compliance, not a person. So we ruled out sort of early discussion of being able to suspend licenses. And this was more about if a vehicle hadn't paid for its impact upon the roads, then it made more sense to focus in on the registration process. And so that has a built in accountability that we talked about where there, if there is an absence of a vehicle safety inspection in the last year or two, whatever the timeframe comes to be, then there would be the ability to just default to a flat fee that would be at a much higher rate, hopefully than most drivers would would be paying up otherwise. So there was also, you know, in keeping with the rest of the approach, a desire to, to just follow our processes, be able to have an appeal process if there are sort of disagreements about what the odometer readings are and, and to be able to make sure that there was full confidence in, in the fee that had been applied. And then program evaluation is important not just for our federal grant, but just to get better at doing this. We explicitly have tackled the group, smaller group of vehicles to be able to learn from it. And so we have to understand how things are rolling out, be able to, to address issues that come up and, and learn from that for any sort of future rounds or, or, or an extension of this to other vehicles. And then there are other, so as part of the process that we'll go through in the design of the program, there will be user feedback to understand how people interact with the system, and then on an ongoing basis after implementation, obviously, to understand how user friendly the reporting and paying of the fee is to be able to make adjustments as needed. So this slide is getting back to that guide that you all were interested in seeing and how our work has fit into it and sort of where we are now. So we're really in this, you know, we've done a lot of, and it's not linear, but we've done a lot of the planning and policy work for this, and are very much in the, in the phase of, being able to, first of all, legislation to implement, but then design and set this system up. And so there is, this is giving you a side by side view of Hawaii's process, where they are, with things, they have now implemented as of Y1 twenty twenty five, but they're still, you know, working on a lot of other elements, including a transition strategy, which is something that we talked about quite a bit.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: this is, I think you all have seen this slide before and simplified way of going how things will work, where you have an odometer collection to the safety inspections. That record is then updated. That's this piece between the record update and the issuing of a bill is where the API has to be built out, and then the payments collected and you have the the various processes, and it's expected that folks will be able to do this through their myDMD accounts. And it may be just a sort of ancillary result of this work that we are able to encourage more and more folks to use MyDMV as a, as a way to, to, do business with, the state. You heard this from other states. It's really important that there'll be a lot of public outreach and education around this. And so this isn't referring obviously to education funds. This is, you know, really making sure that people understand why it is, how much people are paying, why it is important that we're supporting the transportation network. So there's some larger sort of issues that we'll be able to to help tackle with the communication strategy that we roll out as part of this grant work, and so that we can help not just with the understanding of why we're moving towards the miles based user fee for electric vehicles, but more broadly with some of the all the funding questions that that you all have been grappling with. And so these are examples of what other states have done. Having landing page, having sort of brief explainer videos to, to frame the problem, and then having a place where people can go to input their, their own, you know, mileage data and get a sense of, what they might be paying under under a new, fee.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Andy.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Patrick, I would just wanna put a plug in for real media and local fact based papers and other radio stations, I think, and not just folks on

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: social platforms. Right?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes. Yep. So this is, so this is just a graphic from I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: would agree. I do have a couple of local papers that a lot of people, particularly that are older still leave.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: We do too.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: And I have some constituents that are specifically trying to avoid social media, specifically also for news, and they don't appreciate the town or the school trying to use that as the way to contact them because they do still look at the paper or if it's been written.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, I would say my weekly newspaper and, Drum Porch Farm is used

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a lot.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So the communication strategy will definitely be, tailored to our own state, and we do have a strong local media presence, that will be a part of this.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Is that when you're going to come up with a clever new name for it?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That is. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: When do we new name?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Have you all been workshopping this in in the meantime?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Yeah. I'm starting

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: to hear it.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: Patrick, can

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: I just say this was a great presentation because you had stuff that I guess the committee talked about years ago, but just the how it's been determined and thoughtful and especially the there was a slide about the considerations of the of how the billing would be? I don't remember exactly what the words you used, but I hadn't seen that before. That was really, really useful. And the more we can, that's a lot to communicate to the public, but that could be a link to something. I think would be helpful to I the public to know

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: think with this, we can see the framework that Vermont fit in to move along into this. Did I miss it? So this all the collection will be based upon the odometer?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So the that is what we're using for the reconciliation, but in it is expected that we'll be able to, for those who want to use it and pay as you go, would be the ability to use, you know, a mobile phone photo capture and then report that, to be able to, pay for the mileage in between your, you know, your last reporting period, your last reporting data and, and the current. So everything is the sort of final true up is based on the odominant reading data through the vehicle safety inspection.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So we aren't going to have a system where somebody could just pay upfront on a amount?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, there, I mean, there could be a possibility of, of that. Other states have, certainly done that, but they've done that in voluntary, programs, where there was a desire to encourage participation in it. The state of Hawaii is doing that, but only for the first couple of years of their program. They intend to phase out that $50 fee, because they recognize that it will limit their revenue potential, and it would be then less just based on the actual usage of the roads and kind of a strange hybrid of things.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So you're not opposed to that in that same vein.

[Damian Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You know

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: that, you know that I do recognize that the committee was interested in the choice that that provides, and so if the committee is interested in that as a phase, you know, initial phase in approach, that might be something to look at, but long term it, you know, it just hurts you in terms of sustained sustained revenue.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Okay. I would think it would hurt us in the short term too as soon as the start. Sure,

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: sure. I mean, obviously I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: would think it would depend on where you set it. If you said to somebody the average miles traveled, we're gonna go get a 150% of that, and so you set the fee way high. Yeah. But I can see The 50

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: fee for wine is very low.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: That's pretty low. That's a No.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think 50 is too low. Yeah. But if you said we're gonna have the fee at $250, could see some people going, Well, I'm just gonna pay the fee because I don't wanna do anything about collecting any of the information. And

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: did it. So I, you know, and I'm just gonna pay the flat fee and it's double what what they estimate the cost would be. You know? There is the possibility of just, you know, being able pay something up front, and then you reconcile that against that, you know, you, someone is sort of estimating their mileage is going to be above a certain amount, so they're willing to pay a flat fee to begin with, and then it's reconciled at the next registration with what the actual mileage has been. For the Hawaii, I did want to just quickly point because that was noted by a number of you as being like quite low, and so when you see what our proposal for a fee is, it just looks quite high, but the, there are obviously fewer miles on average traveled in in Hawaii, but the this the the way that the state gas tax is set up in Hawaii, you have something like around 18 and a half cents or so for the state gas tax, but then the counties have their own gas taxes that they add onto it. So there's a four different, you know, counties, and those range from somewhere between like 16 or 17¢ up to as high as in the mid 20s. So the effective tax rate for Hawaii is actually higher than, than the state of Vermont. And with their mileage based user fee program, it's a little bit more complex because they have four different DMVs that have all their own systems. And so they're going to allow eventually those regional DMBs to also issue MySpace user fee. So it would be this kind of collection of fees that effectively will be likely higher than what, we're proposing. Is some added context for it.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I only asked the question in that I can't remember what state it was, but they were running very close, fiftyfifty, the number of devices in the vehicle versus the odometer, and they said it was seven times more expensive to have the devices, but people chose the device even though it was seven times more expensive for convenience. So in my mind, if we set a very high flat rate and said you could do the odometer thing, I could see some people just choosing it because they don't want to be bothered.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. So, I'd have to go back.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And if he'd set the rate high enough so, you know, if they choose it, that was only my question.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. So my recollection is this date in that situation bore the cost of it, bore the cost of the device. So to them, you know, in some ways they might have been getting a better deal because they were accurately counting their mileage. It was in Oregon, it was geo fence as well. So they were just capturing a specific set of miles, but they weren't actually bearing the cost, the much higher cost of administration for the device. So that's just a different dynamic, but I think I have, let me see, I have maybe a slide that

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: You're not proposing any sort of separate issue, proposing to try to address out of state travel violence.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Right, could you say that again?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: You're not going to propose this first part, two questions actually. One is you're not thinking or proposing something to deal with out of state traveled miles. That'll just be somebody lives in Vernon they work in Massachusetts and are driving 80% of their miles out of the state. That's just tough on them, right?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, right. You know, there, it is just, you know, one of those things that can't be worked out right away because no state has really figured that out except by using those very expensive devices and geo fencing things.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Sure, that's what I understood. Then my other question is on the federal grant.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Are

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: we required to get this started by 2027 or risk losing the grant money or like what are the some of other some parameters about that grant? The do and end up that pushes timelines?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: So our deliverable within the grant agreement is January 2027. So we align that with with the realities of when we obtain the federal funding and and what the legislature directed us to do this past year. That was we that was an amendment to the proposal that we had submitted initially, obviously, a couple of years ago to FHWA where we had, you know, as a deliverable January, excuse me, July, 2026. So we were able to work with FHWA to recognize the challenges and, and move the date. But that that is what is in the grant right now, 01/01/2026, 2027 deadline.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Okay. And

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: that's what we're working towards as well with, our vendors and ABS and DMD.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Patrick, I just want to go back to what Senator Perchlik said about the person in Vernon who goes to Massachusetts. I think we ought to be intentional and know our intent to find a way that could effectively address that kind of issue, just so that people don't think we don't care, because people need to know that this is a reasonable fair system. So there could be, a mechanism that they would pay for that they could put in their car and show where they drive and or there could also be a statement that they provide saying where they work and how showing the mileage because we do have a process in when you buy a car outside of the state. Oh, I'm sorry, no, it's in income taxes where you can say that you paid tax to a state and then you get it back. So there is a process somewhere. I think that's more awkward, but I think it's important that we have that as an intent because fairness matters.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, and that that has been our intent that we want to get, you know, we're moving towards greater fairness in this initial phase by getting electric vehicles to pay more closely what what their impacts are on on the infrastructure. We recognize that it's not perfect and it has to evolve. And so that is our intent to be able to set up a situation where eventually there there would be a potential option to to sort of limit it to in state mileage or or something to that effect. The, you know, the other programs that you've heard from over the past few weeks have recognized the the huge expense, huge administrative expense of being able to use the technology that that is available right now to account for those in state and out of state miles. And that is why there, some states are moving more in the direction of an a dollar based method, regardless of how you report that. Virginia talked about the same thing. I think Utah as well, there is, you know, right now with the gas tax, are paying for, you know, some miles out of state and in state. It's not it's not sort of a perfect system either with this mileage based user fee, you're paying what is the equivalent of what a vehicle is paying in state gas tax, but you're not paying that in the federal gas tax. So there's there, it's just recognizing that there, you know, it's not a perfect system, but it's also that vehicle is still not paying the full amount that a gas vehicle is, and we're going to have to be able to, over time, evolve in a way that does become even more fair in the future.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Sorry, I didn't hear that.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Vice Chair)]: I'm mumbling over here about air quality, Patrick.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, okay. Yeah, well, the air quality. We will have some questions about air quality and stuff from you, We just had a discussion, started the discussion about inspections and what other states are doing, so we may be looking for information.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: It might also be good to get folks from Department of Environmental Conservation in to talk.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We're gonna do that, but the question I think centers around those states that don't have inspections, that have committed to get the air quality pieces, what they do when they don't have inspections.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. So the state has what's called a state implementation plan, which is an sort of an agreement with the EPA and I'm not the best person to go into the details of it, but that is sort of where our current framework,

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: guess, and I will have to dig into that, but, we're going to be looking for some information about, There are particular states that don't have inspections that have gone into a plan and they must have some sort of a system and what do they do.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Sure.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think you're probably hungry.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: Thanks

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: for having me in, and like I say, we will circle back with you all and Megan, when we have a report to share on the rate setting piece.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: And that should be within a week or so?

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah, that's what we're hoping for.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: We'll be looking for that. And I think with that, we're gonna go offline.

[Patrick Murphy (State Policy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Okay, take care.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Thank Before we go, I'd like to let the committee know that the o and d program in Colchester with Green Mountain Transit has that whole issue has been taken care of.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Oh, good.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: The Hilton turned back a bunch of money. They could they didn't have it in their budget to match. So it's for a year anyway, but still. And they had to negotiate because we now wanted to repurpose that money, now it's been repurposed in a good way.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Member)]: So

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: all of all the

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: So the 89 people that that told they got no service are gonna be

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: They're happy.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Good. That's wonderful.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. Good. It's it's partially due to the discussion in here, a big part of it, I'm sure. And then Green Mountain Transit and now got together and it a negotiation for sure. Came to a good re results.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: And it was a good learning opportunity.

[Sen. Patrick “Pat” Brennan (Member)]: Yeah. It was because the Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Chair)]: Good. Keep that in your head. It won't be the last time we talk about it. Probably not. Good. Yeah. Medical transports are gonna become more a bigger and bigger issue. Yeah.