Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: It's a special You are alive. You don't want. No. I'm here, do you?

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: You're alive. I'd like one.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: It is tricky.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Then I don't have to give my own. And I'm not good at I'll tell you what I'm not good at, and then we'll go, is I'm not really good at online writing notes on the page. I just that that's the one thing I can't And, you know, some people like you are really good at. That's the one thing I'm not really, and I find it a lot better to scribble my notes on. Oh, good.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: I just always gotta be fun.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: I'm sorry, Ken.

[Senator Becca White (Vice Chair)]: I'm The teamwork.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: And with you offering to help me, I'll take help for you anyway. It is Tuesday, January 13. We are here with the traffic court and Terri Corazon, and I will have to admit, thank you very much for your cookies.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Oh my goodness.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: We love them and you're world famous for them, and and we really appreciate it.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: My pleasure.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: We as a little background to this and part of the reason we wanted you here, we went around the table as, a group and talked about, transportation and what our priorities were, and one of the things that came up is safety. So what part and anecdotally, I think there is some concern out there about the speed that people are traveling, how many people are out there driving, with unregistered vehicles and, everything. So what we thought was a good thing to do is where are the tickets? Are we are we back to where we were before COVID? What is that that picture look like? And therein, we, asked you to come. And I see this is fairly long and we've got a half an hour, and if we don't have all of it, we may ask for somebody, you or someone in your office to and we I'm sure we're probably gonna have backup questions.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: That's perfectly fine, and it looks like a lot, but it actually is not a long presentation. I just wasn't sure what level of detail you'd like, so hopefully

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well you may, you know, we may go further in detail into this and there may be further questions because there was a lot of about the safety aspects soon and there are a few pieces to this.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Okay, great. Well, thank you. Terry Perchlik, State Court Administrator. And Megan kindly provided some guidance in terms of what information you were interested in. In particular, the number of unregistered vehicle violations and the number of speeding violations over the past ten years. So this data is geared to that request and I've done a kind of page by page in the hopes that just makes it easier to follow. But in terms of unregistered vehicle violations by calendar year, you'll see that there definitely was decrease during the COVID years. And actually the number of those violations has now reached pre COVID levels. There's been an increase since COVID. So the first slide does show the decline but then right now, at least for the most recent information for calendar year 2025, it's basically very similar to the pre COVID levels ten years ago, or from the registered vehicles, yes.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: This is tickets written or

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yes. This is based on judicial bureau data. So tickets that went through the judicial bureau. Okay.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: It doesn't really matter if they were challenged or not. If they were like because at one time I didn't have my registration in the car, it was registered, and they gave me like a week to get it, just bring in the registration. I assume that those kind of things went You to

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: know, Megan, Joanne Charganaut, who's the manager of the judicial bureau, is she connected? She is on there. Okay, so let me just clarify. Joanne, can you hear me?

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: Yes, I can hear you.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Hi Joanne, do you happen to know, and I apologize, will you see what's on the screen if you don't have the paperwork? Because Linda had provided it. Is that the number of I'm going say conviction versus

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: You were right the first time Terry. That's the number of tickets that were filed with the judicial bureau. If if there was some kind of an agreement with the officer giving him a certain time frame before they filed the ticket, we wouldn't have that information.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: This I'm assuming it's a very small challenge on our unregistration. Okay, thank you.

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: Thank you.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: It's a little successful challenge. Alright. May I follow-up on that?

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah. So, might be a hard one to answer, but I think it is worth some conversation. Do you have a sense of how many, like what proportion of unregistered vehicles are actually cited? Because I think with the change of the colors, it wasn't as apparent to folks when a car was not registered. I think we may not be getting

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: There may be unregistered vehicles that never got a ticket, for example, but I don't know if I would be able to identify that number.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yeah, maybe we can think on that because there might be a way to do some sort

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: of Or maybe that is if if you bring in law enforcement, they may all caps some insight into that overview.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think we've looked, some of us had peeped ahead in your report. I think that will bring law enforcement in.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Okay. So this is basically the slide that addresses unregistered vehicle violations. And then the rest of them have to do with speeding violations. And then the next page by calendar year shows you again a decrease, roughly half. Half of the number of speeding violations now in ten years ago. And showing the decrease of COVID and leveling off if you will. From the COVID years to the present. However, the subsequent slides which are broken down to categories of, for example, if you were speeding more than one to 10 miles per hour, 21 to 30 miles per hour, etc. There are some categories where the numbers exceed the pre COVID numbers. So I thought if we went through those you could look at that and draw whatever conclusions. But in general, in total, for speeding violations, they're half of what we were ten years ago for the speeding violations.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: This

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: brings into, what's the monetary value to the state of the tickets that were written, say, ten years ago versus this to make a comparison in how much revenue less is this on on the revenue side?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Versus 10. I don't have that off the top of my head. I was actually asked by someone recently in terms of fines and fees in general, which would include judicial bureau. And I know that and Joan, I didn't bring that paperwork with me, but Joan, I know you're involved with that. Do you by chance, would you know the revenues from traffic tickets, say 2025 versus ten years ago? We can certainly dig that up and provide it.

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: I wouldn't. Yeah. We'd have to run some data on that for is it for specific speeding violations or just the data for the revenue in general?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Did you want to limit the revenue to screening or any traffic tickets?

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: If I'm looking at, we'll take a year, we'll say 2019, which is the first year, is forty two thousand four hundred and fifty. What's the background behind that versus 2025 where it's 20,630 something?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Joanne, is there an average price per speeding ticket? Because I know they can vary and that way we can maybe

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: Yeah, they're around 162, some of them, most of them. They could be a little bit higher depending on the violation, how they charge it. But we can certainly get the revenue for you. I just wanted to clarify just around speeding and no registration, correct?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: So, if we looked at 162 times 26.3, that comes to 3,339,306. And if it was the same average 10 years ago, it's double that. So

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: basically

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yeah, ten years ago you might not know, Joanne, would it have been 162 on average, or has it gone up year by year, the average?

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: I don't think it's gone up too much.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Okay. So And remind me, all of this gets deposited in the general fund?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Joanne, do you have that? I believe so. Most of it's general

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: fund. There are some. You'll see the municipality ones, which is the local basic rules. Some of it gets to the municipalities, but most of its general fund.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: These all speeding tickets regardless of the officer that runs the ticket.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: This is all. This slide is all. And then the subsequent slides have to have broken down whether it's state or The next slide actually has to do with what's called the basic rule. And that's 23 VSA ten eighty one. And that provides that no individual shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than if reasonable and prudent to know the conditions. So you might have a posted speed limit but if the conditions warrant a lower that could be the basis for a speeding generation as well. So I'm gonna probably imagine weather. So these are speeding citations by charge for the basic rule. And you'll see again that there's a decline in terms over the last ten years tickets issued for violations of the basic rule whether it's a state police or local. I was trying to figure out why would there be that big spike for local. The only thing I can think is that maybe it was a winter that had a lot of storms, winter storms or something and there were more tickets issued, you know, based on this statute, I don't have an explanation.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Senator Becca White (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, McShare. Well, I two questions. First is, does this include sheriffs writing tickets?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: It could. I mean, because it does have local. That would be sheriff versus state police.

[Senator Becca White (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, know we've had different There's been different propensity to take it based off of the sheriff that's in office. Mentality. Right. Yeah. At least in Bridgewater or Vermont. Yeah. But I also wonder, do you have breakouts of anything to do with when workplace related speeding or cause it is a double fine is my understanding in work zones.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Zones. So

[Senator Becca White (Vice Chair)]: if you have anything on the work zones, that would be very helpful, especially since we're not moving forward with the pilot program. That would be an interesting thing to get data on. Then also

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Maybe we are.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Maybe we are moving forward with it.

[Senator Becca White (Vice Chair)]: We'll find out. And then schools, where I'm wondering when you have the local basic rule, is a condition the location like a school or mainly just weather?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Well this says, reasonable prudent under the conditions. Having regard for the actual and potential hazards that exist. So I'm guessing more the former in It terms of does talk about the driver of every vehicle shop assisted with the requirements of subsection A. Driving at an appropriate reduced speed when approaching and crossing an intersection or roadway crossing, when approaching and going around a curve, when approaching the crest of a hill, when traveling upon any narrow or winding roadway, when special hazards exist. So it sounds like more conditions versus the school or work zone. Julian, do you know, can we break it down? Do we have data points? I won't

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: be able to provide it right now, but I can provide additional stats on work zones and school zones if you'd like. Would be really

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: helpful because I think that's

[Senator Becca White (Vice Chair)]: two areas that I hear a lot of people and it might be that we just notice it more, but if there's real data to pack up that we're either not enforcing it at the same rate or even enforcing it more, that would be thank you.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yeah, we'll make notes as we go along and then provide it for you. The rest of the pages have to do with that breakdown I mentioned. How many miles per hour over the speed limit. And whether it's state, it's called interstate or state, or the local. This next page shows that again, for speeding one to 20 miles per hour more than half of a half as few for that. When it's 21 or more miles per hour it looks like it's getting back up to pre COVID levels. So for state issued violations, if it's 20 or more, it's on the bar with COVID. If it's 20 or less, it looks like it's about half as many as before. And similarly, it's kind of interesting. Next one is Vocal. One to 10 miles per hour, almost a third of the A big decrease from one to 10. The same thing for 11 to 20 local speed limits. This is statewide.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: So when it means local speed limits, would this be enforcement by local police departments? Local police. Or would that mean just local and enforcement across the board, state police, local police, sheriff's office?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: My understanding of the data, and Joanne, please confirm, let me know if I'm wrong is local would mean local municipal or sheriff issued tickets versus state police tickets. Is that

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: correct? That's accurate.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Go ahead. Sorry. So to clarify, it's the officer writing the ticket, not

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Yes.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Which statute, like, whether it's a local speed limit or a interstate

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: No. It's there because the state place would have jurisdiction Right. Right. On some different parts then. Okay.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Right, so I've just two more questions. So just to be really clear, so local speed limit does not mean necessarily the speed limit within the town or it could mean that. Would mean a

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: local officer enforcing a local speed limit.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay, within a town. Yes. I mean, within a town. But

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: a Burlington police officer could write a ticket on the interstate. Yes. Right. Or DMV officer could write a ticket on a local town run. My understanding.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yeah. Joanne?

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: I think it was slide four, which deals with the basic rule and the local rule. The local basic rule is where the municipality adopts state ordinance so they can issue tickets. But yes, any officer can issue these tickets.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay. So the titles are based on the location of the violation.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yeah. And I apologize.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: That was my original question. This is not about who's doing the enforcing. This is whether so for example, in my town, the the school is not on a state highway, and but so if they went speeding by the school, it doesn't matter who gave the ticket out. It it it means local means that, not who's handing the ticket out.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: And and I apologize that I misunderstood. I assume local meant local municipal enforcing the local speed limits. But that's I think I'm wrong. Okay. Is that so Joanne, is that kind of the vast majority though? I I don't know. Would you have a state trooper issuing local tickets within a municipality typically?

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: I wouldn't think so, but probably that would probably be maybe law enforcement question.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Probably not,

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: unless it's something really egregious. But does the revenue go to local if it's

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: local here? Do you know the breakdown, Joanne? I

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: do not know the breakdown.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Guess I'm not from finance.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: There are a handful of communities that still have contracts with the state

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: police. Yeah,

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: yeah. And

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: when they do that, I would suspect if the school's not on a state highway, that So, but this is now, we'll dig deeper into this. This is across the board, whether it's state police, sheriffs, or All the tickets are in there, but this is probably something that's not on the state highway system.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: It's a local road.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Maybe that's the way to think about Right,

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: yep.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Sounds good. Maybe, yeah. Or the highway would be the other.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: The interstate.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Alright, well we'll know more. For more excessive, state limit violations on the next page, 131 or more, there is less of a decrease. And actually for the 31 or more it's pretty level. Even during COVID.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: But there aren't many of those.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: No, two ten per year.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Which is really Far fewer. Out of even 20,000 that's not.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yeah. Yeah, there is that difference. Think somebody mentioned that's really egregious. Looks like that would be caught.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: That's 31. That's 91. Yeah. Or or I was, say, a 100. Yeah. Pretty close. Yeah. That happens. I don't know

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: how I mean, I drive a lot. Wow. 89 to 91.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: But I'm It's there. I get past a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going under the speed limit. I guess continuing on if it's for the lower level, one to 10 miles per hour, it's a quarter of what the pre COVID level was. This is for state speed limits. 11 to 20, about half. And then I think you'll see and you can follow along the trend. Then the last page just shows a bar graph in versus the in any other tab.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Same data.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yeah.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: So I don't know how hard it is to pull these up. I don't wanna pretty much work for you, but I wondered if you had similar charts or tinted window violations.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Joanne, do we have that data point?

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the question.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: I've got three other data points I was wondering about. Tinted window violations, any kind of license plate, like the license plate's not there or it's not visible or it's covered, any kind of license plate violation, and then lack of a valid inspection. You can be registered but not inspected. So I wondered if we had data on

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: How about snow insurance?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Joanne, do you are do you, Joanne, do you have a handy the list of data points that we would be able to identify?

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: That would be the waiver penalty schedule. There is some codes that I can look up for the tinted window. License plate not displayed and lack of valid infection. That's the three you're looking for, correct?

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Ryan, also, did you say no insurance? No insurance. No insurance.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: I've had a number of people that I know that have been, had incidents people, then rear ended, and then the other driver didn't have any insurance and they're stuck with Bill.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Or hopefully they have under insurance covered.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Right. If you do that too many times, your insurance goes up.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Is effective, right. In terms of the no insurance, we would have a code for that, but I think that would only show up if they were stopped and asked to provide for insurance and didn't have it. You know, that's when, because otherwise you wouldn't have any way to

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: I have a few times in my life been pulled over for speeding. Not many, but, and every time I've ever been pulled over, they ask for the first thing they ask for is your license and proof of insurance. And registration.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Yep. Yep.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: So we would have that, but it would be hard to tell what the no insurance

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: is.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Well, it'd just be interesting to see if we could compare that in the past to where we are now and what the trends are.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Would you like this for ten years ago versus today for

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: each of Yeah, if we could have all of that brought in. Sure. And we will, if anything you can produce for dollar amounts around what each of this is, because we will have law enforcement.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Oh, great. Okay.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: And it, you know, I'm sure it would be interesting, you know, on the revenue side, what this would produce, you know, conversely, think somebody in the state police for is gonna say, well, it costs this much to do it. So it it is trying to figure out the balance and understand the reasons why these are down.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Mhmm.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: You know, because I I'm just gonna speak personally for myself. I can't believe there's less people speeding.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Well, one and to that point, I was listening actually on the radio driving here today, there was a gentleman who was talking about transportation issues. And one point he made in terms of the fewer number of tickets was that possibly could be due in part to the number of remote meetings that people have now. That there are fewer people driving to meetings and all, which actually does make sense. I know in the courts, we have remote hearings, but I think in the business world or wherever, whatever.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: I I have to say, if you look at all of the charts for the estimates of vehicle miles traveled, we were we had a dip during COVID, and we were now back up above Oh. The number of vehicle miles traveled versus pre, and and we're on this track. You know, the estimates are and and I use this a lot. In 1980, the average car traveled 10,000 miles a year. The average American currently has 13,500, but it's always been an upward track except for the two years in the middle of Coke. Interesting. And that was the only time in our history. So I think I and I and I'm not really dived into this furna to make all of this jive in my head, but

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: That's interesting. So we both need a disorder selling a head wound patch.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: It might affect business people in that, but I'm not sure. I think we need to get into this further.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Okay. Well, we can certainly gather that. Did you have in mind next week to have follow-up?

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Yeah, we probably won't get to it this week. If you could.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Okay. And what I can do is let Lincoln know when we have it. And then I am happy to either send it in or come and present it, whatever you all prefer, whatever your time allows.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Or we can put you, you know, if it's trouble for you to get here. Oh, it's not right next door. Yeah. I know that, but, you know, we all get busy.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Oh no, that's fine. We should, Joanne, we should be able to gather this quickly as we think.

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: Sure. Rick, don't take too long. Thank you.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: So we never move ahead and forth.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Something I might want to ask for in the future but not necessarily now but just if you can just check if you can do it is data by county possibly so that we can just have a geographic sense of it. Yes. Competition. It's

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: my industry factor than you're in.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Well, actually what I see is from Montpelier to Burlington, things really speed up because I used to drive from Proutyboro to Woonwski a lot. And so I would just note the behavior got really interesting and reminded me of others' case when I was passed So

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: it speeds up who you get to Senator Perchlik's district.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: It's a

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: world that becomes faster in Senator Perchlik. Only halfway.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Joanne, I assume we can do it by county.

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: We'll have to check on that or, you know, like agencies. We definitely have reports by agencies, but I'll check on the data for by county. I'm not 100% on that.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Okay. Anything that would just show the geographic representation because the different barracks might have their own data too. You might be able to sort by that.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Okay. We will find out.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Thanks.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you. Did really good. Yeah. Started right on time and you're two minutes left.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Oh, boy. Pretty much.

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: Well, thank

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: you very much. I'm I'm I brought over the appointees for the Vermont Supreme Court positions, and they're in senate judiciary, so I'm gonna guess they're still going. So I'll return return over there then. I really appreciate the opportunity and your interest and we'll follow-up with the additional data. And if anything else comes to mind, don't hesitate. Just let us know.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: If anything else, the rest of you have anything that you think we've missed, Megan will be in touch.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Sounds great. Alright.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Clerk)]: Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: To see you all. Yes. Joanne, thanks so much.

[Joanne Charbonneau, Manager, Vermont Judicial Bureau]: Thank you.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Thank you. Chair, so I'll just let the committee know that I did ask Logan for information from DMV on the number of inspections and then the number of registrations because I thought it would be helpful to prepare.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: Yep.

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: Are we just also getting less people registering as well as less taking the I don't think so.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: I think it would be good to have that information.

[Teri Corsones, State Court Administrator]: That's a good idea.

[Senator Richard Westman (Chair)]: Thank you. Thanks again. You. We're going to go

[Representative Pat Brennan (Member)]: off