Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: We are live. Hey. Good morning. We are back in the senate judiciary on March 20. We are taking up an amendment to S one ninety three that was made by the health and welfare committee in collaborating with the institutions committee. I believe the deadline for committee amendments is passed. It's just the individual senators of those committees that have signed on to this bill and it's draft 5.3 that we're working off of. We have DMH and DOC in the room and on Zoom and we're going be hearing from Senator Lyons probably around 10:15 and in that I bring we'll also hearing from Legis Council, but since we have DMH and DOC available now, we're just gonna get their take on the amendment and hear their perspective. So there's three of you here, don't know who wants to go first or how do you want to handle this, but up to you folks.

[Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Mental Health]: Sure, go first. The record, For Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Department of Mental Health. Since we were last in here, we've spent lots of time in the health and welfare institutions. They were really focused on ensuring the political aspects of the future facility. So what you see in front of you are changes based around that. So it's flushing out a little bit more how it shall be operated in terms of it being therapy and recovery oriented and trauma informed. We did work collaboratively as an agency and reviewed all of this language, much of it language that we proposed, and we think those are things that make sense for this facility. Again, our goal is to ensure public safety and proper clinical treatment, including the availability of 20 fourseven same care. It also added a couple of reporting requirements, so an interim report due in October, giving the agency time to work together to come up with more of a solid plan as to a potential of a patient staffing needs, those sorts of things. And then there are also changes to the rulemaking sections and the effective dates acknowledging that facility wasn't going be able to be open and operational by 07/01/2026. So that gives us more time to do rule making. There's no need for emergency rule making. We could do the regular rule making process and then push out those dates. So we are in support of the amendments. We think it strengthens, though we appreciate the amount of time that the committee has put into ensuring proper clinical oversight and believe that it's a good medicine and be able to help answer.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: I guess my general, I mean, think I know the answer, but just want to make sure it's clear. Based on hearings and health and welfare changes that are made here, this increase the focus on therapeutic healthcare and mental healthcare in these facilities?

[Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Mental Health]: Yeah, so I would say that the language in here was always the plan of the Agency of Human Services, was to provide this level of care, but it documents it in statutes. So yes, understanding that I think that was our goal always was to provide good clinical care but it certainly strikes that it makes it very clear in the statute that those

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: are requirements. Okay, very good. Any comments? Just on the effective dates, is there any change from the original bill that should be commented on? Or is it more or less, I'm thinking if it's included in this amendment there's changes to the effective dates.

[Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Mental Health]: Yes, so it has section two going into effect on July 1 and that was the one that really wasn't about the friendly facility at all, but that was about if you timed out with a misdemeanor, it would be dismissed. And then the rulemaking in the interim report sections take effect on July 1. It says that the sections around the friendly facility would be 01/01/2028. So giving us time to operationalize it. And of course, we can always come back if we think it would be operationalized sooner. And then the annual reporting is 07/01/2029, getting a year of data to be collected before that report. Does that answer

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: your Yep, absolutely. Thank you. Any other questions?

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Thank you. Appreciate it. And who wants to testify next? Is that yeah. We declare

[Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Mental Health]: We should have commissioner Murad joining in just a few minutes. We just spoke, and he's walking up from the Tax Building. So if you all don't mind sitting patiently for a few that'd be great.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Welcome Commissioner. Do you need a second to

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: No, go ahead.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: We're just transitioning from witnesses here and we just got a general overview from DMH about the amendment that was sent over from health and welfare. We're going to have center lines that are here in about fifteen minutes or so and then let counsel as well to walk us through. But, you know, since folks were available, we just made this time for the vote to testify. And, yeah, if you have a perspective or any thoughts on the amendment that they've created, happy to hear.

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: No, I actually I am grateful for the opportunity. For the record, John Murad, I'm an insurer for the Vermont Department of Corrections. I'm grateful for the opportunity, Senator, to be able to confirm that the DOC is supportive of this language and supportive of this bill. We, as I've said in other testimony, we are currently fulfilling this function. We have no issue with continuing to fulfill it in the way that we have with the added ability to provide competency restoration services. And that obviously will probably require an amendment to our current contract with our current healthcare provider, but it's a service that they do provide in other locations. It's one that we are prepared to roll out in our own facility, and we are supportive of this. I think that it will actually remove the certain amount of ambiguity about where people, the very small number of people who are accused of these really horrific crimes, where they go.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Any questions? Yeah, just have a quick second question.

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: It's probably too early at this point, so I'm wondering, in your opinion, when they talk about initial staffing considerations, staffing levels, whatever else, are we referring to well path employees or DOC employees also? Would assume that those staffing considerations would apply to both,

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: but really primarily health care. We don't necessarily need, we don't envision changing the number of correctional staff that we have, security correctional staff, would be our CO1 and CO2, who's our supervisors. Again, the majority of the people that are accused of these crimes currently, and are not currently competent to stand trial, are in our custody. And we are meeting those custodial needs with the researches that we currently have, and what I believe this envisions is the addition of new resources to assist with the restoration of that competency.

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: You. Sarah, I was just noticing here in the language I do. I And I can okay. Sure. Says, bottom of page one, lines, 70 to 91. It says, and to otherwise address clinical stage or operational considerations as appropriate, possible operation of multiple facilities. And I'm wondering if required by the clinical needs of transferred persons, I'm just wondering about that because I don't remember our discussion touching on multiple facilities. Is there Thoughts on that? Well we do operate at multiple facilities right

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: now in that we have a female who is accused of crimes that fit the parameters of this proposed statute, and we have males who are accused of crimes that fit the parameters of this proposed statute, and therefore those are in separate facilities already. And so some are obviously the females is at our Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility in South Burlington, which is our only women's facility in the state, and I believe all of the other persons accused of crimes of this type but not yet sentenced are at Southern State Correctional Facility in Springfield Community.

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: When it says that we'll establish and operate a locked secure forensic facility, that's in addition to what we already have and you're saying that the local facilities referred to here are already partially in operation? No, I mean that we operate secure facilities where individuals would be for this kind of treatment are held. Okay, and maybe I'm certainly not being clear, but in other words, are we establishing one new facility here and then there are a couple of already in place holding the people you're talking about or are we talking about opening several new facilities? Well, that latter question would certainly be a much larger question than any current budget in the context of that school. That would be a tremendously large Right, but it's, I'm asking because I don't know if this is, was this in the earlier jobs mentioned in all of the slides?

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: No, this is, 5.3 is the

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: That's what I thought. Yeah. So in other words, we introduced this phrasing of because it's a shall, the forensic facility shall provide for the safe housing management of persons, blah blah blah, including the possible operation of multiple facilities if required by the clinics and needs of transferred persons. Does that in any way obligate us going forward to have more than one new facility? That's fine. Don't know. Okay. Okay. I'm I'm getting a head shake there.

[Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Mental Health]: So, I don't believe the intention is to obligate multiple facilities at all. I think there's an understanding that as this process develops, we'll be able to check-in. So, we're handling someone from the death room, like Commissioner Morales said, we want the ability to separate people by gender when appropriate. We want to make sure that people are in the most stage and appropriate location. So if there were the needs for something to be separated by sex, we would want that flexibility within this bill, which I think is what that language is trying to address.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah, I was also going to add, I think, and it's probably an Eric question as well. At least the way I'm looking at it, that this could also allude to the possibility of providing competency restoration services and the less restrict the lesser restrictive environments. Because I know there's we created the possibility that a person could be technically committed to a place that isn't jail, that's my understanding, and at the same time they could still get the competency restoration services that we're describing that are applicable to the life events situations. That's my take on it without having heard of White Council, but

[Karen Baruth, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Mental Health]: Yeah,

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: I just, I do think there's an ambiguity there, but it seems like everybody involved doesn't doesn't believe that it's pointing toward multiple new facilities. So

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Any further testimony?

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: No, sir. Not unless there's any other questions still. Why don't you circle it because you just act.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: So, no. Great. Oh, actually, I guess one general question I asked a similar question to the MH. You mentioned ambiguity earlier based on what you've heard in health and welfare and what you're seeing here. Was this clarify the ambiguity that the focus needs to be on healthcare

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: and By therapeutic ambiguity I think what I meant is that we have had and we can in the past instances in which people who are accused of crimes that fit these standards, It has been uncertain whether or not they should be inside a healthcare facility or inside a correctional facility, and I think this allows us to remove some of that ambiguity. Think it allows us still to have, as you have pointed out, the option of a custodial setting that is not necessarily a behind the double fenced prison, if other such facilities exist and can be monitored through the Department of Corrections via, for example, our field services or not.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: But in general, what I

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: meant by ambiguity in that particular context was the idea that there have been times where people who are accused of really terrible crimes in really credible ways are not, or move back and forth in in ways that I don't think are healthy for them and I don't believe are safe for the community. To move back and forth between one custodial setting and then a non custodial setting and then a factor custodial setting as their competency either waxes or wanes or assessments of that competency change. I think this is a more standardized and specific kind of situation and outlines that and says, No, when an individual is accused of these crimes in an incredible way, we're going to remain in this location and get the services that they need in order for us to be able to give them due process, where perhaps they are able to say, No, it was not IMDF. You know, the credibility of the acquisition can be dispelled in a court. But that has to be a due process, and that is what's currently not always available to privacy. I think this enhances their ability to access it. Thank you. Right.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: So we have Senator Lyons coming at 10:15 and Legis Council coming at some point in the near future depending on how the House

[Commissioner John Murad (testifying on behalf of the Vermont Department of Corrections)]: floor goes.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: So