Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Kim McManus, Vermont Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs]: And now.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Okay. Alright. So we

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: are back in senate judiciary. It's still February 20, and we're on s one eighty six, and we have the defender general here with us.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Yes. I'm Matt Valerio. I'm the defender general. The the two ways I can kinda go about this. One is I can go through a bunch of thoughts about why my office doesn't like this so much, but I almost wanna jump to the conclusion more and just give you a suggestion before I talk about the bill specifically.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: I think that sounds good. I'm wondering if your conclusion might be the same suggestions we've gotten, but so I don't yeah. That's

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Yeah. I I don't know what your suggestions were, but there's a there's a group of juvenile justice stakeholders who get together periodically. It's been in existence since 2016. It includes DCF, DOC, confeder general, state attorneys and sheriffs, attorney general's office, the court, victim's advocates, some other interested parties. And typically, this kind of proposal is something that would be looked at by that group. It's not statutorily created, but that group was created around 2016. And it was convened to deal with, like, the raise the age stuff. And but it deals with other things somewhat regularly when they get together. Lindy Boudreaux at DCF, I guess, is the person who sort of convenes it and gets everybody together. Marshall suggests to me that this is the kind of thing that would typically be reviewed by that group. And that it's the kind of thing that in his view should be because it gets everybody in the room together. They talk about it and try to figure out you know, one of the things that they that I read it, and I'm like, what are they trying what's what's what problem or issue is trying to be solved here? I'm unaware of the problem, if there is a problem. And so I asked Marshall, do you know? And he didn't know. And so it would might be good rather than we I can go through the all the reasons why maybe this isn't such a good idea, but that group may have more insight than I would.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: And

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: I I see that you're the chick that you're the one of the sponsor of the bill. I'm sure you could tell me what you had in mind. Yeah. However, the maybe you should tell that committee, and then there are, you know, groups. Don't know. Whatever it is. Group of people who get together and talk about things. Because they have all all the various interests in there. And, you know, so that you know, in conclusion, to start everything, that's where I think rather than me just saying, now these are the things we don't seem to like about it, and have them report back, like, November 1 or October 1. I don't think it's one of those things that's gonna take, you know, six months of deliberation. But if you get all of those folks in a room talking about it and understanding the issue, then it's better than me just, I think, going through the details of this and, you know, why we think it might not be the best idea. Because it might be able to address whatever the issue is either in this way or in another way, and it it becomes a consensus bill as much as anything.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah. So what I can tell you is this came from a recommendation based on something I experienced and a few other defense attorneys in the have experienced where a situation arises where somebody is charged with a felony, let's say an ag assault, and they want to, at the consulting with their attorney, accept a plea of a simple assault or disorderly conduct. And they want to wrap that up in the criminal division, but then you get the plea all set up, you go in there and the judge says, this can't happen in this division, figure something else. That's the problem that it's trying to address. The recommendation that we got earlier was to make it so that this would only apply to a lesser included offense and that there's a nexus of conduct. So that somebody who is in that ag assault, the simple assault situation isn't also going to have other charges that are completely unrelated hanging over their head in some way by using this language. And then there was a technical recommendation made by Kim that I don't think I'd be able to rearticulate in the same way, but to cover one issue, don't know if you wanna repeat again what that was.

[Kim McManus, Vermont Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs]: Well, I'm just for the record, Kim McManus, Department of State's Journey. And sheriffs, I just noted, the defendant general, that the way it's worded could be read as you could only plea to an offense under them, one that you were brought into court for, and I just didn't want it's if the idea is to give the juvenile and their defense attorneys some more choice in where how they're resolving the case, I didn't want that to unintentionally take away potentially that pleading to the charge defense might be part of the resolution.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: This is actually interesting because we've been here before. There was a period of time, so during, like, the Dean administration, I when was very first Defender General before the first. And two in five males between the age of 16 and 25 were under supervision of the Department of Corrections. Why? Because there was a we had furnishing and possession of malt beverage as a crime that was on the books at the time. And the legislature gave a choice. Basically, you could go to diversion and do a program they had set up at diversion for these folks, young young people. Or you could say, I'm gonna plead to the criminal charge. And a large majority of them said, I don't care about the criminal charge. I'll just take the conviction. And, unfortunately, that also ended up in a suspension of their driver's license, which then led to a ballooning of DLS charges. The whole point of this is not like what happened there. Juveniles, when they're making these decisions, it's not so much the more difficult crimes, the more severe crimes, But it's an easy way out to say, I'll just plead with a criminal charge. And it's not even in their best interest, but they just see it as it's quick. It's over. I don't have to screw around with conversion and do the the, you know, the things that I need for, like, substance abuse education or whatever in that particular case. But it had these collateral consequences in the system where it is particularly for the more minor charges, but that it was easier just to eat the misdemeanor without any regard for the collateral consequences as opposed to having the case you have to do some work and not and not end up with a charge but ending up in in the juvenile court on in this situation or, in that case, going to go into diversion where down the road, they wouldn't have a criminal record. They wouldn't have their license suspended. They would have been, you know, kind of good to go, but it had this ballooning effect on the system. And we got this whole group of young males basically who over a five to ten year period during the Dean administration, you remember, he was around for eleven and a half years. And it all came about in the early part, 1991, I think, when we changed, and Senator Norris would probably remember this, we changed the DUI laws. That's when we reduced, like, the DAC from 0.1 to zero zero eight. We created these little suspension procedures. We did a bunch of different things at that time and at the same time it was that. And when juveniles are trying to make these decisions, they want to think about, they think about historically, and they did in that case, how do I get this over with as quickly as possible to get the hell out of here, which is not always in their interest, legally or personally, they don't think that far ahead. So, you know, one of the concerns about the bill just as a matter of policy is that it allows, it puts that decision making in the hands of people who are not really mature enough to make that decision. Mhmm. And traditionally, judges make that decision. You know, they decide which way it's gonna go. So this is part of the discussion that like I said, without going through the details of the bill, the discussion of the policy is something that I think this group of stakeholders might have some legitimate input on. And I'm not saying it's the wrong thing necessarily to do, but there might be safeguards to it or, you know, a judge might have to make specific findings to agree that that whatever is going to be put in the in the criminal case is, you know, kind of in the interests of either resolving the case, this juvenile, that it doesn't do any harm to the juvenile, those kinds of things. Criminal records as, you know, in our state we do have sealing and expungement that seem to constantly be under attack at at some level. And, you know, getting a criminal record for even for something minor can have some pretty severe consequences down the road even if you can't foresee them at the time. So, you know, the suggestion really of the office is as it sits, they're not too keen on it, and they didn't understand what the problem was. I understand what you're saying now. But our experience with making those choices in the way that, you know, in the past, and I've actually I haven't had to talk about that. It's such a huge number. I I was stunned that, like, forty percent of people ended up on probation with the Department of Corrections because they they picked up violations along the way with these minor charges. In any event, you know, it's kinda one of these things where once you're in the system, it's hard to get out of the system until you hit your early forties. And that and we followed a big bump, like this kind of lump of cases that were the dean administration alcohol and d u I d DLS cases that were just flowing through the system as people picked up other violations along the way. And a lot of what, like, justice reinvestment one was about was ways to prevent that and keep those people out of the system. This might be kind of going back to has the potential to do that, but I'm I'm not gonna tell you sitting here today that the stakeholders committee, if they took a look at it, would come to the same result. They might say, well, maybe we tweak this a bit, there's a way to do this that satisfies all of those interests and particularly the best interests of those individuals making the decision at the time. So I guess

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: a comment and maybe a question. Mean, I I get where you're coming from with, you know, juveniles wanting to wrap things up and move on. And I think also often applies to adults too sometimes,

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: And the lawyers. What was that? And the lawyers.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yes. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, this situation though, at least in theory, the juvenile is gonna be getting counsel as to whether or not going the ag assault route in criminal court or going the simple assault route in criminal court, know, which one is in their best interests. So so I guess that's just a comment.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: But Well, putting putting down it, if there's no decision about what court you're gonna be in, you know, you you said criminal court in both instances. I mean, clearly, you're a lesser charge in criminal court is always the better result.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah. But that can't happen at the moment. Mhmm. And so that's that's what this is trying to get at.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Well, because it's because it would go to juvenile court. Is that what you see, that's where the confusion Yeah. It it would go the mutual

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Well, if plea agreement can't happen is is the issue if if the kid wants to take a misdemeanor charge.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: You're trying to say that say the case was in criminal court right now that and, like, the kid is not, like, not eligible for a usual offender or Yeah. Whatever. You can't take a lesser included you can't plead to something different? That's that's my understanding. That's not true.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: And I can say that unequivocally. So and if if they are eligible for youthful offender I mean

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Well, let's assume they are eligible for youthful offender. Then it's treated as a regular criminal case in adult court, and they can do whatever they need to do. Go to trial, file motions, plea to a lesser offense, enforce any of their due process rights that are just to anyone. Okay.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Who who are these other folks on the this committee that you mentioned?

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Well, it's DCF, representative there, Department of Corrections, my office, state attorneys and sheriffs. Attorney general's office is there. Judge has been on it, and I think judge McDonald Katie is maybe transitioning on. I know the victim's advocates are on, and there are other interested parties that also participate. I could get the and and I know that Lindy Boudreaux at DCF is the one convenes the group and sets and you know, with the assistance of others sets whatever the agenda might be. And the the thing about the group that this is I was aware this group took place, but, obviously, the juvenile defender is the one who usually handles this. And since Marshall does both serious stalking unit work and juvenile stuff, he's obviously the perfect example perfect person on that group. But it has been a very stable group that got together out of mutual interest to deal with the raise the age issue in 2016. But because these issues of mutual interest have kind of continued for the last ten years, they have dealt with a lot of other stuff and made some suggestions to court legislation and commented on other legislation and rules changes and the like. And, you know, Marshall had suggested that and sounds reasonable to me, but, you know, you're the legislature, that they report back. It doesn't have to be a long time, but then you're do your study committee or something, but have them take a look at it and and come back in the fall. Well, you know, I mean, it is the second year of the biennium, so I some people may exit. I don't know.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Well, I think we'll put a few of these folks on the agenda to at least hear from them and then determine after we get some changes that were proposed. We'll hear from them and then make a determination if it really is something that needs

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: to go to the study or if it's straightforward enough. You know, this is the kind of if this bill as it sits wants you know, you want it to go forward, I'm happy to come back and give you all the all the reasons why as it sits, it might not be the best idea. But I needed to understand kind of the policy of, like, what was driving it. And I think I do understand that. And now I also think there might be some misconceptions about what is driving the policy. But might not be the might not be the way to go, but it might be a way to satisfy all of the interests, you know, with what you're concerned about and in the interest of others who are commenting on. Yeah. That makes sense.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: I mean, we'll be getting some changes here, which, you know, I wouldn't want you to come in and comment on the bill as introduced. We're gonna be getting some changes that I think will clarify it a little bit more.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Yeah. Very much so.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: But I can let you know when we get the new version and then see what we can do moving forward from there. Committee, any questions from that?

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: Just a quick one. They have an official name for this committee? Or They just call themselves the juvenile list, the stakeholders group, and and they they've been getting together, like I said, for ten years. But it's not it's not a legislatively creating committee or a committee of the court or anything else. It's just it is informal, but it's pretty stable and pretty active around juvenile justice and youthful offender type policy. And actually, you got Wendy Baruth's name. I could Yeah. Alright. So Wendy? No. Yeah. Wendy Baruth, b o u t r e n u. One more question on

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: a different topic. I know this is short notice. We are picking up 193 in about ten minutes or so. Any chance you can stick around for one particular question? It's gone through a few changes at this point. Will you be free and available? Is that I'll just

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: like, I yeah. I actually plan to be here now, so I'm available now. Okay.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Great. Well, we are gonna take a five minute break just so we have on the agenda 10:15 for Jen Coleman, but then we can come back to that.

[Matthew Valerio, Defender General of Vermont]: That's the forensic. Yeah. Sorry. You still with those? Yes.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah. We can we can go up.