Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Real life. Good morning. It is January 27. Senate judiciary sergeant, the late start of the defense and technical issues. We have Beth St. James, religious council, to talk about one narrow piece of this regarding schoolness and the definition of schools. And so the floor is yours. Thanks, Beth.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you. Beth St. James, office of Lent Council. So I have paired for you today a handout with some potlanks and a possible definition on page three that we can whittle away at until you're happy. But I just want to start by saying there is no universal in title 16 definition of stool. That is not a defined term for the entire title. There are individual places within Title 16 where a sub chapter or a chapter or even sometimes an individual section does define school, so that whatever the concept we're trying to apply is, the universe that it applies to is clear for whatever school means in that context. So that's a very long winded way of saying, I suggest that you all create your own definition of school, and we will add whatever you want to add to that definition, so it includes everything you want it to include. And so what I've started with, and I don't this is my first time comparing the year to date, do want me to share my screen, do you want to go off of the handout?

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: If you don't mind sharing the screen, think Senator Rajoski may not have the handout right in front of us. Thank you.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. I started with the master definition statute in Title 16. In Chapter one, Section 11, Title 16, there is a master list of definitions that apply to the entire title unless obviously the context otherwise clearly required. Anything you see that's underlined and highlighted is a hot link. So that'll take you right to the statute. Statute. All I've done here is use my own judgment to pick some terms that may be applicable to this discussion. So for example, public school means in title 16, an elementary school or secondary school operated by a school district. Pretty self explanatory. Independent school is going to include both approved independent school and recognized independent schools. School district is a defined term. Adult education and literacy, I think, is going to be an important concept, potentially depending on your goals here. And then I pulled out the definitions for recognized and approved independent schools, so you can see that there are two categories of independent schools, even though the term independent school encompasses both of them. Home study program, I just added it here because it is an option under our Pulsory Independent Rules, although I don't know what your goals are here related to home study. Supervisory union is a defined term. Supervisory district is a defined term. Tutorial program is a defined term that may be applicable to what you're talking about. Pre K may be applicable to what you're talking about. And approved education programs to teen parent education programs may be applicable to what you're talking about. So, and I see Senator Klipsch, get her hand up, and I don't Senator Hoesch.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Member)]: Yeah. Absolutely. Given that I'm not looking at section one six the cross reference on the independent schools, I'm just wondering if that would apply to only schools that are approved to receive public funding or all independent and private schools.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The term independent school encompasses all approved independent schools and recognized independent schools in the state regardless of whether they're permitted to receive public tuition. Okay, thank you. The terms I've included here are basically, or actually, let me take a

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: step back.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Vermont has a compulsory attendance law. If you are between the ages of six or 16 in this state, generally speaking, you are required to be enrolled in a public school, an approved independent school, a recognized independent school, or a home study program. As long as you're enrolled in one of those things, you're being in a compulsory attendance environment. So when you are talking about school, those are the first kind of places that I think of. Public schools, independent schools, and schools. But then from there, especially when it comes to the public schools, students may be, they may need extra services or they may be in a position where their most appropriate program for them is not in a public school or an independent school. And that's where you get pulled into, or that's where you pull in the definitions for tutorial program and approved education program, which includes teen parent education programs. Teen parent education programs are a part of approved education programs. Under the statute that dictates which educational programs a public school can pay tuition to in Title 16. Approved education programs and tutorial programs are included there. So to me that means there is an option for students to be educated in a tutorial program or an approved education program that's not going be a part of the public schools and not going to be a part of the independent schools. So I would just suggest that if, depending on the population you're trying to connect, those are two types of educational settings that you may want to think about including in your definition. Clear as well? Yeah. Okay. So that's title 16, master list, K through 12. Title 16 also covers higher ed. There is a general term, a definition in title 16 for higher ed, and that's post secondary school. It means any person who offers or operates a program of college or professional education for credit or a degree and enrolls or intends to enroll students, that's going to include public and private post secondary schools. So again, depending on the population you are trying to predict, post secondary school may be a component of your definition from school. K. Pre Pre Another Hand by Sunny Durbin Hochstrad.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: That sounds really good. Thank you.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Member)]: Yeah, absolutely. This was a question that I asked, I think it was Friday was the last time we discussed this and was told to sort of wait for you, and that was kind of around public university versus private university, and if we have any ability when it's a private university that's not necessarily receiving any field mark state funds to tell them that they have to do this?

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, the way I read S209, and I didn't write this so maybe I took a more cursory look at it than I should have, S209 is written as a prohibition against is not telling a school to do anything. Okay. Is that your reading?

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah. I I would agree. We're not telling schools specifically Right. To do something. Right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Member)]: Okay. That makes sense to me. I just wasn't sure if there was a differentiation because I know within our public and independent school system, that's sort of an ecosystem where lots of those schools get public money. So I just wasn't sure if that mattered at all when we came to the university level, but it sounds like it does not.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I would say the way that S209 is written now, I would say it does not. For my purposes, for helping you craft a definition for school. Generally speaking, if you, the state, and the legislative body who creates all the laws, you want to dictate what a post secondary school has to do in order to operate in Vermont, you can place restrictions on them or make them follow certain laws. So there there is wiggle room there just be just because it's a a there are we have many private schools and few public schools, you know. You can you can require them to do things in order to operate in Vermont.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Member)]: That is helpful. Thank you.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then, of course, you know, it's slippery slope as far as what you are required. But we'll we'll stay we won't go down that slope for today. So pre k. Pre kindergarten education. If it is provided in a public school setting, it's going to be part of the public school definition. But we have a universal pre kindergarten education program here in Vermont, which funds ten hours of pre K education that every student, basically to the provider of their choice as long as they are pre qualified. And so there is publicly funded pre kindergarten education happening in, I'm looking at number three here, qualified private providers, which are basically non public pre K programs. That may be a private, an independent school that runs K-twelve and also has a Pre K program, that may be what we think of at the daycare center or childcare center. So again, depending on the population you are trying to protect, while we're thinking of school, technically, when we're talking about Pre K, there is a portion of our pre K system that involves pre qualified private providers. So again, another term to think about for your definition. And then career and technical education should be swept up as the definition related to independent schools and public schools. I just included the definition of secondary career and technical education. Our adult education CTE is provided in our secondary CTE centers. And I think the most all encompassing term for career and technical education would be regional CTE centers. That's gonna be all of our good bar centers. So whether they are a CTE center operated by a public school, an independent school, because we do have two, or a standalone CTE school district, which there are three or four, I believe, I think four. So there are CTE centers that are not run by a school district. They are run by their own they're called school districts, but they are not municipalities. They do not have voting capacity, but they are just not run by a public school district in the same way that Milton Public Schools run their public schools. So I think, again, depending on who you are trying to protect and wanting to be as thorough as possible, you may wanna consider adding maternal regional census deception or referring to this definition just to make sure you're sweeping in any that there's no technicalities that someone can come in and say, well, technically this is not part of a public school district, so it's not run by a public school district. And then what I've done is I've added a couple, I've shown you a couple different places in title 16 where either the term education institution or school is defined for the applicable section or sub chapter, so you can get a feel for how broad these definitions are, depending on the law that is applicable to them. So for casing, harassment, bullying prevention policies, there is a defined term of educational institution in that subchapter, and that is Vermont Public or Independent Schools or post secondary schools. So pretty basic. Public, independent, post secondary schools. This is going to exclude your approved, or I shouldn't say exclude, it's not going to exclude approved education programs, which include teen parent programs. It's not going to include tutorial programs. It's not going to include pre qualified private pre k providers. And then the definition for in the administration of epinephrine in schools. This is there's a definition of school just for this particular section, and that means a public or approved independent school and extends to school grounds, school sponsored activities, school provided transport, school related programs. You'll see I borrowed some of that language when we get down to my suggestion to you all. Again, this is just public and approved independent schools. So so pre k through k through 12, pre k if you are in a public school, but does not apply to post secondary schools. So really, you can create a term that encompasses all of the educational institutions that you wanted to encompass, And that is what I have here on the last page. I have kind of done a brain dump here of every type of program I can think of related to holistically Vermont's education system. And you can whittle away at this, you can add to it, you can change it, but I would suggest that instead of school, I would say you use something like educational institution. You can really use whatever term you want. And then you just refer to already defined terms. Right? So there's a definition for public school. You just reference that. Independent school, reference that. Regional CTE Century, reference that definition. A group education program, reference that definition. Pre qualified private provider, post secondary school. Here's a term that we have not talked about yet, and that is Board of Cooperative Education Services, BOCES. That's a relatively new construct to our public education landscape in Vermont, which is essentially a cooperative formed by supervisory unions to provide shared services to supervisory unions. But they are their enabling legislation allows them to run programs. So it would be a program that is not run by a public school district or a supervisor union. And one of the areas where BOCES may be concentrating is in special education. So it is entirely possible that a BOCES is running its own special education program. And so I would suggest that you consider adding an educational program operated by a BOCES to make sure that you're sweeping in any of those programs that if they were individually operated by their individual school districts would automatically be swept in with public school, but because they're being operated in a cooperative setting, you may need to actually specifically call them out so that there's no loophole there. Tutorial program, we've already mentioned. Adult Education and Secondary Credential program. Our Adult Education and Secondary Credential program is a part of our education landscape. It is a program that is governed in chapter, or in title 16, part of flexible pathways. Part of its funding comes from the Ed Fund, part of its funding comes from the general fund. But the educational programs, the services that the participants are receiving are not happening in a public school, and they're not happening in a independent school, they're happening in their in adult education programs. There are centers around the state that apply to AOE for grant funding to run these programs. And so again, depending on the population you are trying to protect, adult education and secondary credential program, you may want to specifically call that out and sweep that in. Eligibility to participate in this program is as young as 16. And then I just loved this. I didn't write this, but my colleague Katie McLennan did that language. But I really, the term educational institution shall also extend to the grounds operated by, activities sponsored by, verification provided by, programs related to. Very broad. Again, you can beat this language up however you see fit. But again, depending on how far you want your protections to go and how the lead in language to this definition goes, right, if you're not specifying a specific distance around a school, well, then maybe extend into the grounds operated by is an important phrase that you want to include. But if you already have, you know, 25 feet around or a 100 feet around, you know, whatever that is, you don't need to say grounds operated by. Again, activities sponsored by field trips, sporting events, etcetera. If those activities are not occurring on the grounds of one of those places that fit within your definition, maybe you do need to add something like activities sponsored by transportation provided by kids getting off the bus. Right? And then programs related to it's a little broad, but again, you you see what I'm trying to say is just we can get creative depending on your ultimate goals. And I've done a lot of talking. I'm gonna pause.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate this explanation. So committee, what do we feel? Any initial thoughts or questions, comments, or best?

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Sarah Mattos. Absolutely. I think I don't think it's covered in here, but expanding kinda like on the pre k, but to just early childhood care, how that fits into school.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I would suggest you talk to my colleague, Kate McLinn, on anything related to child care.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That would be outside of my portfolio, and

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: I wouldn't want to

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: provide you with wrong advice, but absolutely she would be able to help you with terms related to child's care.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: So, or, still I'm understanding, are you talking about, like, early childhood education, everyday? Infant and

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: toddler care versus, just like three and four year olds for pre kids.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: And because you're looking for

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: go ahead.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: No, was just gonna say because I,

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: you know, in my mind when I look at this, I'm looking at, you know, protecting the children. So, know, one, two, three, four year olds Yeah. Kids in public schools. So whatever we define the school as, that type of thing. Excellent. Clarification on that.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: If I may add?

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yes,

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: please. An intersection there that I'm it's just I'm just thinking of it now, which would be great to get Katie's take on, is, like, Head Start programs. Those are those are outside of prequalified private kindergarten providers.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Again, depending on the population you are trying to protect. I think when we think of Head Start, generally speaking, we think of school.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But I don't think it's gonna be swept in in any of the definitions that I have provided.

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Thinking along those lines as well, so like after school, that falls into the school related activity. Right? Or is

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: that

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I same I think it depends on how the language in f two zero nine is worded. If you're talking about a place and after school is provided at a school, it shouldn't matter who's providing the programming because you're talking about a physical location, a public school as defined under. But if you're talking about the program itself, then yes, if an after school program taking place either at a school or at a park or a municipal facility, then it would not be covered here. Those would be covered under childcare. Yes, I think they would be covered by DCF and childcare regulations and not by FCC.

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: So like, in my town we have mask program and Weldon after school kids. The community center provides that service, but it's done in the school, Therefore, it would be covered as a school related activity.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, I again, that's that term, I think I you can see me kind of shaking my head that, like, programs related to. That is very broad and very big, And you are the judiciary committee, so I'm sure you are well schooled in broad and vague terms and the dangers of using those terms. I think the safest way for you to go, so that no one can poke holes in it, is to be very specific about the programs

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Mhmm.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That you want to ensure let's see. I was s two zero nine, That someone cannot be subject to civil arrest while traveling to, entering, remaining at, or returning from. I think you can make an argument that if the after school program is taking place at the school

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That you are remaining at the school

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And therefore or leaving the school, and therefore you'd be covered, but maybe not in the municipal building. But why take that chance? I think it would be a stronger language for the specific of the programming and after school is definitely not something that I would cover today.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: So I'm

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: thinking like my nephew does summer programs. I don't think it's done by the school. It's not on at school grounds, but it's if it's cheltened.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. And I so summer camps is definitely Katie's portfolio, And after school programming, we kind of share depending on what the what the topic is. But if it if it's DCF licenses those after after school programs, so that would, I think, fall more to her. I'm happy to come in with Katie, you know, if you were to bring her in so that we're both in the room. But definitely, summer camps, after school, before school, head start, all of those things, I think Katie may be better to advise you on, but you are correct in that I

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: don't think we're covered here. So I think, Emery, if we can make a note, we can reach out to Katie and also at that second sometime next week. We'll figure that out for a job to find. So Senator Norris and then at Sarah Vyhovsky.

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Beth, maybe it's on number 27, where it says tutorial program, it's education provided to a student. I wonder if you could expand upon that a little bit for I

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: can't, unfortunately. Yeah, sorry. So it is a program that is, the state board needs to approve it. So there is a little bit more. Maybe I can follow-up with you and provide you a little bit more out of the state board rules. But a tutorial program is under 16 BFA eight twenty eight, which is the section that says what type of program a school district can pay tuition to. Tutorial program is an allowed program for a school district to pay tuition to. Beyond the black letter of the definition, I can't find any nuance today, but I can absolutely follow-up with you.

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Because I was wondering if someone wasn't doing a wellness school, whether or they had to take a summer studies, pay people through their own expense, I mean, how broad do we get with this? Is that technical tutorial of what they're paying for, does that fall under this?

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, so you mean like it would be paid out of pocket?

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: If it was paid out

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: of pocket. That's a really good question that I don't know the answer to. Let me look into that. I think that the key phrase that I'm seeing in the definition of tutorial program in title 16 is a student who is placed in. Okay. To me is a school district making that decision perhaps with an IEP team or a board, you know, some team supporting the student deciding that this is the best place for that student. Identifying a program that, you know, your parents decide you need some help at reading and you're gonna do this program over the summer. Maybe it's swept into this definition depending on how the state board license not licenses them, but regulates them. So let me look at that definition and I'll get back to you. Okay.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Haven't thought, but I forgot it. And and and Senator Vogelsen. Senator Vogelsen.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Member)]: Great. Thanks. So this is actually bringing up I don't know whose portfolio this is, but Beth, maybe you do or Senator Hashim, maybe you do. And that is sort of the definition of municipal building because I think some of the after school programs we're talking about might not be captured under school but would be captured under municipal building. But then I'm thinking of my own town, and is the Maple Street Pool a municipal building? Is the Sandhill Park a municipal building? And so I think that it also is going to make sense for us to get whomever in whose portfolio is that, and it may be Tucker, to help us define municipal building.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Member)]: Just because that brought that up for me. Like if they're having it at the town office, it's obviously a municipal building, but is a park community? Like I know that the town owns the Maple Street Pool, but is that a building? So that would be good for me to to understand as well.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: I I mean, we could have Tucker in as well sometime next week. Any anything else, senator Rommelny? Anything else from? Alright. Thank you. I think I mean, I'd like to start with the definitions that you have here on page five. I suspect it may be other questions or things that we want to change to them. And I think that we'll need more clarification on a few of the pieces, but you know, if anything, we are going to have to further define school. So I think that having the definitions that you've described on page five as a starting point, and then we will come back and revisit the points that we need to clarify, points that were raised by the members. So I think that's a good starting point. So thank you. That's very helpful. Does that work, Rick, for drafting purposes? That's fine. Yes. Okay. Fantastic. Do we have any other questions or comments on this particular piece?

[Senator Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Sure there will be, but

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I can't provide you a phone.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: No. Okay. We're we are actually gonna be taking a break here in a second.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Great. I'll wait outside. Yeah. Great.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Okay. So if we don't have anything else, then we can take a break and come back at eleven. We're gonna be hearing from general counsel from DOC.

[Senator Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: So Yep. Well said.