Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: We are here. This is the Senate Committee on IT and institutions. It's Friday, January 31. We are here to learn more about the Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility and to get an update. I think, as if you

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: know us all. Yeah, you have a brief introduction. That's okay, Chair?

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: No, I, of us.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I actually don't, I don't know everyone yet. Okay, then let's do it. Yes. Great.

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Senator Sanders

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: from Aldi's County.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Joe Nader from Linden. Senator, if you're looking for your And

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I'm the policy director at the Department of Corrections. So we're making legislative contact. I'm sorry, couldn't be here last week, but excited to talk about CRCF and the broad opening of the project. I'm also joined by my colleague here from the Department of Corrections, Kathy Szaborski. She's our Director of Women's Services and also the Commissioner of Women's General Services.

[Gail Zas (Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence)]: My name is Gail Zas, I work with the Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence. Oh great, thank you for being here. So

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I think very quickly I just wanted to talk about the Correctional Center project we have here to replace CRCF. Certainly an object of much conversation in the state, so just kind of wanted to give you a very quick background on this project, which has been going on for a number of years. The Department of Corrections is really the why behind the project, and we work really closely with our partners at BGS, which is very much the what and the how. So the structure itself, the zoning, which we can get into later. But really kind of want to talk about the philosophy of why we're looking to replace this building. So I'm not sure how many folks have actually been to the CRCF. I know Senator Harrison, you have been. And it's a very dated structure, about half a century old now. It's outdated in terms of its replacement timeline. It's got about, I think, 12,000,000 or so in terms of deferred maintenance, and it costs about $3,000,000 a year just to keep the lights on, which is by far our most expensive correctional facility to keep running. When you look at it, it was originally built in the early 1970s as a detention center for men, and later housed both men and women. So it was never meant for long term habitation. So it was much more of a jail setting, free sentence, than a kind of traditional correctional facility thinking about prisons as, you know, fifth for long term habitation. You know, it also had that fencing, rows of fencing, barbed wire, razor wire, kind of hard surfaces. You've spent time in the building. You've seen what it looks like on the inside. It looks like a jail from the early 1970s. That's kind of the philosophy that it was built with. At that time we weren't really thinking about the healing and rehabilitation of incarcerated folks. It was really meant to house people, warehouse people. So you know, very little natural light, bars on the windows, does not really afford us the opportunities we'd like to work with the women who are incarcerated there. So this is what one of the larger cells in the structure looks like. So you can see the poor quality of light. You know, there's been some attempts obviously to try and put paint on the walls and brighten it up. You'll see some beautiful murals that have been painted over the cinder blocks, but paint is really only a temporary measure here. It has hard furnishings, blind corners, the bunks themselves, There you've noticed no ladders, no ligature points, but very difficult for someone who's experiencing health issues to get to those top bunks, which is something we hear a lot. And you know, cold surfaces as well. So this looks very different from what we're envisioning for the next chapter of Correctional Facilities in Vermont, structures that I think really reflect our values as a state and how the values have evolved since the early 1970s. There are also major issues, mechanical issues in the building in terms of leaks, things that our staff have to deal with. I think we talk a lot about the conditions for the women who live in this building, but it's important to note that we also have a number of staff. DOC is the biggest department by staff in the state. We have hundreds of correctional officers in six facilities across Vermont, and we have a number of folks here who have to contend with some of those difficult conditions. And so when we have a building issue that BGS needs to work on, we have to move staff around the building, which is very difficult when you have such a limited footprint. So office space here, this is the administrative part of the building. When that leak happened, had to move all the folks out of that part of the building and house them elsewhere and make shift offices. So it's just very disruptive to the structure of the building and its operations. So this, to kind of change pace, this is sort of what we're looking at, a completely different template, completely different look of design. And this really reflects, again, updated research, a really different palette. We're looking at higher ceilings, natural light, as the BGS folks have kind of laid out here, sensory boundaries, identity anchors, nested layers, much more modern structure. So these are just some pictures of kind of more modern correctional facilities across the country. You can see again some of those natural landscapes that have been fitted into the structure, places like light wells, high ceilings. A lot of these spaces are designed to also give folks more agency so they can kind of choose where they want

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: to go throughout the structure. How many what's the right term? Because I want to get the right term. Incarcerated individuals. And the inmates that we currently have at the facility. Yeah, now

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: it's about 120 to 130 on any given day. CRCF has 177 beds, so we're not nearing capacity, but we have seen an uptick in the number of women who are housed at CRCF recently.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: We're

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: also looking at facilities outside The United States to give us that more modern template for design. So this is a prison here in Norway, Halton Prison, which is actually a maximum security facility. You can see on the right, this is an image down a hallway with the natural landscape in the background, lots of natural light, and on the left the dining hall area. And you can see there's kind of a difference in seating, so some folks want to choose seating that's just maybe with one other chair, they're able to do that. There have been larger tables if people want more of a group. So we're trying to give incarcerated individuals the opportunity to make choices for themselves, which, you know, right now is somewhat limited given the architecture of the building. Scandinavian facilities also have built into them dedicated programming space. So here we see a kitchen and a pottery studio. We're still very much in the draft phase of the project, so we haven't made any explicit decisions on what kind of spaces might be available, but certainly this gives you kind of a sense of what these facilities look like and how they feel. These are just some floor plans, but again you can see it on the left, a facility in Reykjavik, Iceland. Again, of natural space, courtyards. And on the right is a psychiatric center in Copenhagen. Again, lot of built into the natural landscape, lots of light, not those kind of long institutional corridors that you might see at CRCF today. And here's some pictures from that psychiatric center in Copenhagen. So again, a lot of natural materials, softer materials. Another facility that we're looking very closely at is the Southern Maine Women's Rancher facility that I know the Senator has been to, the Chair has been to. We invite anyone who would like to go, we usually do an annual trip up to Winderm, Maine to see this facility. It's It's about a 100 bed facility, just about fifteen minutes outside of Portland. And many folks when they walk by it don't even know that it's a correctional facility. So the doors are unlocked. Women can come and go during the day for jobs, appointments, to see family, and it's really designed as kind of a step down setting from the more secure correctional environment, which is just up the hill at their state prison complex. But you know, when you go inside that space, I think for me one of the most amazing things is the difference in how women feel when they're there. You can see it when they're smiling, they're joking, they're talking to the correctional officers, it's relatively quiet. The staff will tell you that when they moved into this more modern facility about ten years ago, five-ten years ago, experienced such a, the staff experienced such a different level of stress. It was much reduced. The radio traffic for correctional officers changed completely, and you know, it just became much calmer. It's a much better environment for staff to work in, and it also requires fewer staff. So this is as if you were standing with your back to the officers podium, and with this layout you can actually look into all four living units. So there's one on the left, one on the right. If you turn around you can see the other ones. These clear lines of sight make it easier to staff facilities when you have limited staff to do so. So it just makes it a lot easier for the facility to function.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Can you talk a little bit about what reentry is? Yeah, absolutely.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: So I'm going actually turn it over to my colleague, Kathy. Do you want to talk a little bit about reentry? Sure.

[Kathy Szaborski (Director of Women’s Services, Vermont DOC)]: At the main facility, women are allowed to go out to work and they have great relationships with the employers in the area. One thing that they had pointed out to us is it's a little bit moved out of town, so transportation for the women to get to work has been an ongoing challenge and one of the things that we keep in mind in terms of where we wanna site the new facility. But they are able to go out during the day on their own. They've arranged transportation in a number of ways. I think when staffing got became challenging, employers were willing to come and get the women to pick them up and take them into town. And they're really allowed to pretty much work any time of the day. They don't have specific shifts or anything.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah. Me just step back and then one sec. So a reentry facility is something that where folks go to near the end of their sentence and the goal is to get them ready to reenter. Absolutely. So I just want that to be clear.

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: And the chair goes on this, right, because we've said it before, but just for the new senators and new board member and the new committee members is exactly what you said about when we've asked them what is the worst thing that you did wrong and it was that it should have been two miles closer to transit. That's the worst thing they did. That's So how important it is. Yeah,

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: and I just want to add on to that. We also heard that it was less expensive than regular, than normally built facilities.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Right, well it's not a hardened facility when you think about all the concrete and rebar that go into a more traditional correctional facility, a lot of this is a stick build, just cheaper to construct.

[Kathy Szaborski (Director of Women’s Services, Vermont DOC)]: And as Isaac had mentioned, because the staffing is less, that's a huge piece too, and cost. And the other thing I love about this facility that we keep in mind was it's flexible, So there's sort of like four quadrants and I don't think I've ever been there when it's been full, but they just have a lot of flexibility in bed space, which is another really great component. Women are able to wear their own clothing, they can bring their own bedding in their rooms. So when you look in their rooms, looks more like a dorm room than any correctional facility rooms.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: They also have a programming space, so this is where mothers can meet with their children. We have a similar space at CRCF. We had to retrofit part of the existing gym so that Lund can operate the Kids Apart program, which is a really wonderful program. But again, we didn't really have dedicated space for that, and so we had to take away some partial reparation areas so that we could build that out. And so I think that's the difficulty that the department faces right now, is CRCF, our existing facility, so outdated and so inflexible that we had difficulty really dedicating the space to these kind of rehabilitative programming needs that we really ought to as a system.

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: They have

[Kathy Szaborski (Director of Women’s Services, Vermont DOC)]: a great culinary program too. One of our visits they literally had a menu at our seat and the woman came in and took our order and then brought it back. It's really great to interact with the women in that capacity. You can just see the pride they have in what they're doing and it's normalizing the environment,

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: which is important. And you know, get to practice some of those culinary skills with local employers. So actually the Bush family, which is a compound in Hinnabogwart, their pastry chef trains the incarcerated women from this facility and helps get the job training skills, culinary skills, and those women are very highly sought after by local employers because of that skill set and training. So we're also really hoping that this, you know, our version of this facility, which we'll talk about in a second, I think really acts also as an employment mechanism, way to strengthen the workforce in Vermont. So looking across our state, I think probably the closest analog here is the River Valley Therapeutic Residence. This is the DMH facility on the former Woodside site in Essex. So this is just if you're by the St. Mike's Fulchester campus, it's kind of right down the hill there. And this facility is built, I think, using again those evidence based design treatment modalities that we would like to employ in a correctional facility. So our facility would look a little bit different, but it would draw from the same palette. So here you see a community kitchen, again those have nested layers, higher ceilings, lots of natural light, natural materials, this is a group space, again, forward ceiling windows. That circular window on the left is actually a security window, so that's where if you go back one slide you can see there it is, the staff can actually look directly into the room and see what's going on, but at the same time it's kind of created in such a way that it looks more decorative than functional. RVTBR Building also has a beautiful artsy buildings mural that at first is quite surreal in the winter. It has a garden space. It is a secure facility, you'll see the fence there, but it's not that kind of razor wire that you might see in a traditional correctional So this brings us to what we're kind of imagining right now. Again, we're very much in the early stages of this project when it comes to actual design, but we're thinking that it would kind of have a core for the infrastructure, there would be those services, you know, like healthcare, vocational services, risk intervention, recreation, chapel, dining, food, all that would be kind of clustered in the center of the building, with housing for incarcerated women surrounding that. Some administrative space, and then also that reentry setting as well, which you can see up there. And we're still trying to figure out exactly how all these pieces fit together, and working very closely with our partners at VGS to move this forward.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: So

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: we are looking at some potential sites in Essex. I think one that we're very keen on is a site that's state owned property, it's AOT land from the old Cirque Highway, which is off of 2A Susie Wilson Bypass. So this is kind of right now sort of scrub forest. There's a gas line that runs underneath it, although that wouldn't affect the construction. There's some vast trails as well, and those I don't think would be impacted. But we're looking at some of these sites here in the southern part of this about 50 acre parcel. So still a lot of work to do on the zoning front and working with the town of Essex on this, but that's sort of generally kind of where we are project. I'm happy to

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: answer any questions, talk through that. Yes. Thank you. Having gone to controversial structures in in, towns that that I've I've dealt with. I'm sure this is one Mhmm. What has been, one, the municipality and and two, the the general feeling of the residents in that area. Yeah,

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I would say this is certainly a really controversial policy area for the state of Vermont. I understand that no one wants to build prisons anywhere in our society. At the same time, I think the Department of Corrections for its part, you know, we have a fundamentally different philosophy, I think, than some folks who say that we don't need any prisons at all. Some people, I think we've heard from some pockets, think more fringe elements, special interest groups, prisons have no place in Vermont. I think we struggle with that, especially when we hear that women don't commit crimes. As folks probably know, we are holding an individual who is allegedly involved in the shooting of a border patrol agent recently, fatal shooting, who is an incarcerated woman. So I think we really struggle sometimes with these difficult conversations. They're very emotional, very volatile. However, think it's very clear looking at those images of CRCF, and for anyone, staff member, an incarcerated woman who spent time in that building, anyone who's visited that structure, it is globally outdated. And that we have an obligation as a state to treat incarcerated women and staff in a more dignified manner. And I think that means making investments in infrastructure.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: So obviously the next is the cost. We estimate the cost of it?

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah, I might defer here to our partners at BGS. Think some initial estimates, but we still have a lot of So, work to prove on

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I will the last number I mean, I just for the record, Wanda Mignoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services. I had the opportunity on my second day or third day of employment in this position to go to a meeting with the team from Corrections regarding this project. And I'm like, I have a number in my head, Isaac. I'm not sure if that was an internal number or I

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: think we're still circling around the exact estimates as we get closer, I think at least 70,000,000 That's the number I have in my head. Probably more, and I think the important point to make here is that with every year that we wait to build the structure, construction costs will only increase, think they go about what 7% or 10% a year? Missing all sorts of things. All sorts of things, but and you know, and the longer we wait, only has it become more expensive, but the longer that the folks who live and work in that building have to remain in that structure.

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I'd like to add, though, one of my understanding with the committees of jurisdiction in the last couple years, you know, we've gone out, we've looked at sites, we were asked to try to identify sites that the state already owned that had some infrastructure connection or some of those other costs to do that. And so in this this presentation, also to be mindful of where the current employees work and that we reflect, you know, look in the that area because those the individuals currently working in South Burlington, obviously, it's probably not in the best interest to go to the other end of the state.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: Right.

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: So using those parameters, we identify property the state owns in assets. Mhmm. And there's a couple of parcels that we own, that we've been looking at and exploring. And currently, we're trying to get a we're working with Essex. So just ask for some more information on a zoning request for the property. Mhmm. And that's really gonna make a difference too, as you well know, and what is our final cost and what does it look like, because that's a piece of it, we're looking at savings on that end.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: So it looks as if there have been preliminary drawings

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: and the like for the facility. I think we've discussed and looked at the models that Isaac was just showing you, and I haven't been there, I've love to go, but the Maine model is something that the department is philosophy and the policy around that is something that we are trying to adopt and bring into this design. Is that a

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: fair statement? Yeah, absolutely. Think when you speak to the folks who run that facility, the Maine Department of Corrections, you know, they'll tell you that the recidivism rates for women who go through that building are extremely low. And especially for women who have access to a lot of that rehabilitative programming and education, you know, it's near zero percent. Right now our recidivism rate in Vermont is around forty percent, men and women I believe. And so we see this as a critical investment, not just in infrastructure but also in public safety. I know WCAX did a piece recently on the facility in Maine that Commissioner Rule is talking about in the slides, and a woman who actually was in both CRCF and in the Maine system at the reentry facility, and she talked about how she would so much rather be incarcerated in Maine because of the access to that kind of structure and the ways in which collaborate or participate in programming and rehabilitative services that we just physically can't fit in the building. And we have amazing community service providers like the Vermont Network that runs the DIVAS counseling program. We have Lund, like I said, runs Kids Apart Mercy Connections, Vermont Works for Women. They're directly embedded in the building, but they just don't have the space to run the kind of programming that they would like. And so we have a stakeholder group that's been working with us for the last several years now to plan this structure, and something that they have said very clearly, kind of two things: one, keep the facility as close to its current footprint as possible. It's right now in South Burlington, so try to keep it in that general area that's accessible for folks who work there. And then also to make sure that it has the adequate programming space to meet their needs, some of the needs of the incarcerated women.

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Okay, so starting I can't remember Madam Chair, we did park some money last year. I think we did park some money for this prison, as you're looking on this year's capital bill, when you look at the extended range, can see where we plan to park some money up to $59,000,000 So we're working towards that goal of whatever the money is in, so it doesn't have to come all in one budget.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Right, and I just want to make sure that we don't just talk about the reentry facility at Maine, but the prison itself because there's a men's prison and a women's prison just up the hill and at least one of those is new and it's also much different. It has really good outdoor spaces, it has private spaces, it has places where you can talk to your lawyer or therapist. It's just completely different from what you'll see in Vermont, and it's also restorative and and and they have art and and that's that's where the the main culinary, classes. Don't want us to forget about those. When we go to May, we'll see that as well as the pre entry.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: Wow, there's heavy lift.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah, is a big app. It's a key part of our infrastructure, and it's our only facility for women in the state. We have five men's facilities, one female facility, CRCF, and CRCF really is our kind of folded structure. And so I know something Chair Edmonds has been very vocal about in house corrections upstairs, but very much, you know, this is a high priority item for us as a department. I think it's, if I can speak for the commissioner, I think he would say, you know, it's very difficult for us to meet our mission to the state, our mission as outlined in statute in Title 28, if we don't have the facilities to do that. We're trying to graft what I think is a very modern leading vision for corrections in The United States onto structures that are 50 years old. There's a fundamental tension there. You know, it's very, as some of the incarcerated women will tell you, it's very difficult to achieve rehabilitation inside of a concrete box. And that's what we're trying to do. So that we're really, you know, our values have shifted, We put together a strategic plan, we've published our vision, mission values, recent, just in the last couple of years that reflect a totally different ideology than fifty years ago, but we're still stuck with those buildings. So we're really trying to bring this system forward, and I think CRCF, the replacement for CRCF, this new facility, will be the template for what the rest of Vermont's facilities should look like.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Yeah, and it's not just old, it's bad.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Just, yeah, mean, correct. It's

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: punitive. I applaud anyone who can get better in that facility because I don't see that.

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Now the one thing that makes me feel good about it all as far as the new plan is that when everybody's on the cutting edge and wanting to be first, and Vermont seems to lead that in a lot of different areas, right or wrong, or more wrong than right, I think, sometimes. Trying these new ideas, this has been proven out. And and which I which I'm a very big fan of. It's proven out for a lot of different reasons. One is it's better for humans. The other is it's cheaper. Mhmm. And and the third thing and most important thing, there's proven success. And I think those are it's an important formula.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I think thank you, Janice. To Sandra's point, our goal is not to have women return to our custody. Yeah. Our goal is really, yeah, the commissioner will say, yeah, he wishes he could put himself out of a job tomorrow, right?

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: We also heard as well, to your point, you touched upon it, but we've actually have heard before in the two years previous that we've been talking about this where there were some women that actually didn't wanna leave the facility in May.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Right. Especially the reentered one. Right. Or Yeah. Which is a different situation because you're getting support and it's meant to be ongoing and the person themselves can decide when to go.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: Yeah, there are a lot of factors obviously, so you may or may not be able to answer this question. Mean, there are zoning factors or municipalities factors, there's budgetary factors. What you're testifying, so I'm gonna ask you this question. If you

[Kathy Szaborski (Director of Women’s Services, Vermont DOC)]: If everything

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: worked out, would you see this, the start of this coming on?

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah, that's a great question. And again, think I'll defer more to my colleagues at BGS, given that's more of kind of a how question, but I think we've said at least three years of permitting roughly.

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yeah, I think that's our first step of success in working with the community for this project is getting a zoning change. That's really critical. With everything, as we move forward, then we would move into the more larger permitting and more specific designs and working with the community and presenting those to them, to the design review board, to working with neighbors looking at the site. That's easily, I think, a year process. Two years and then comes the funding, right? Then it comes the final design and the funding and how do we advance the construction of that project.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah. Think the capital bill will be essential obviously.

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: It's my understanding, I believe you, we have 16,000,000 currently, roughly appropriated already for this project that will help us (fourteen to sixteen) to advance it, and I believe you did that last year or two years ago. So we do have some of that money sitting there. We have a great team. We are really at that critical point on all of our permits. And as you well know, that takes a good bit of time, and want to work with the community on going to the. And

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: it's a partnership. Oh, absolutely.

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: What's the distance between residential and the parcel of land? In terms of

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: the neighborhood directly around, I can flip back to some of those slides. There's a little bit, there's some residential area here. This is mostly, you know, lot of industrial, some medium density residential, though there's really been no housing in this plot. Actually, would say that CRCS, the current footprint, is far more residential. You've seen that, right? There are houses right next to the parking lot. It's directly across from a dance studio, Vermont Gas, Flickers Bakery. But that, you know, that plot, people have asked us, well why don't we just demo that existing building and build on top of it or retrofit the building itself? You know, actually probably more expensive to try and, you know, demo somewhere and retrofit some of it. Also, the footprint is too small, and it's built in a lot of wetlands, So which creates a lot of we really need to vacate that site. Think ideally So it's

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: built on wetlands, so it's Acton 50.

[Wanda Mignoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Well, they Well, we are we already approved for that site. So you know? But the site does not add you you know? So you would have to build up. You would have very limited outdoor space, which I think those doesn't align with the vision and the programming and what you're trying to do. I think part of the reentry, vision would be very difficult to do. I mean you'd have to give up some of your programming visions in order to utilize that site. Know, because I asked the question, but these sites provide more programming opportunity because of the size. It's not that we need it's not that it's all going to be huge and we're going to fill all of this. It gives us more flexibility. There's a good amount of land for there's two locations actually in Essex and they're both over 10 acres I believe, which is significant to the postage stamp that we have in in South Burlington, it really gives a lot more programming opportunities.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: And we'll go see it.

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: I want to add a little bit on that. I'm not asking for a comment from corrections or BDS, but there have been arguments in this building about bed counts and all of that, I don't want to get into bed counts, but I want to get into this. The thing what happens is when you build a facility too small is the first thing that it does when they need more space is they take the programming areas. And the success of these facilities, in my opinion, and what you've been proven out is what we've learned through what we've been doing this, are the programmings. As to allow that to have programming, and not to be stealing the spaces, the gymnasiums, or the areas to put more beds in as you need them. Again, I'm not making discussion about anything to do with that other than as we move forward in this, if we're all still involved with it, is to be mindful of the size of the facility to make sure that it's big enough to be able to have the successes that they're having in other areas. To Senator's point, you're exactly right, and one of

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: the worst things you can do in any correctional environment is overcrowd, which leads to just a myriad of issues. A very infamous case is the Plata decision, Supreme Court decision at the State of California, where they were just crowding those facilities and it led to violence, just really poor outcomes for incarcerated folks. The American Correctional Association, ACA, recommends that facilities are never filled, more than 85, that they recommend a 15% buffer so that when you have to close down a unit, a unit will do because there's a door issue or you need to replace something, you need to have slack in the facility for folks to move around. Otherwise, you're going to start adding three people to a cell, they're going be cannibalizing those spaces for programming and recreation and using those to house individuals. So rather than folks having their own spaces, now you have 20 or 30 or 50, you know, folks in a gymnasium, which is clearly not rehabilitated or appropriate. And so as we design this building, we're still very much circling around bed counts. I think a lot of it is going to depend on the site and how quickly we're able to bring things online. But right now we're hovering around that 130 women number. About half of those are detainees right now. The department has no control over the folks who come to us, particularly as detainees. And so we just need to make sure that we have the adequate space to take care of them when they come into custody.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Alright. Does anyone else want to speak?

[Kathy Szaborski (Director of Women’s Services, Vermont DOC)]: I would just add that although I know people are concerned that if the bed count's too high, that we'll fill it up. But we like to point out that the current capacity at Chitin is a 177, and we haven't I don't think we've ever been there, but when only the women were there at some point. And then just, we've never built a facility in Vermont intended for women. And the women have been moved around the state quite a bit and kind of shoehorned into facilities built for men. And, you know, one of the reasons, as we've said, that we don't wanna move the facility very far from Chittenden is they've been in that site now since 2012. And this is like the longest period we've had to really work with staff on the nuances of working with women. So the number one principle of gender responsivity is that gender matters. And there's so many differences of what incarcerated women need versus incarcerated men. And this is such an opportunity to be able to, from the beginning, build something that's going to address the unique needs of women and to give them an environment that's healing. Trauma is such a huge piece of what brings women into our system. So, you know, it just is important on so many levels and I think it's gonna be a real game changer in terms of recidivism and healing to be able to provide that environment. And once we have that established, I mean, a lot of the principles that we talk about aren't just gender responsive, they're trauma informed. And certainly the men in our system have experienced trauma as well. And I like to think that this facility is going to be the model for what we continue to see, what we provide in Vermont within our department.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Kathy Szaborski (Director of Women’s Services, Vermont DOC)]: Serge, did you want to? Okay.

[Isaac (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Well, if you have any questions, please reach out to me and very much appreciate this.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: Appreciate your time. Is it possible? I don't know if you is that

[Unidentified Senator (Committee Member)]: you can send that to us. Thank you.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Okay. So anything else, committee?

[Sen. Robert Norris (Vice Chair)]: I'm good.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Chair)]: Not? Okay. We are adjourned.