Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay, we're back in Senate institutions. Today's Friday, April 17, now we are going to do a markup of H-nine 52, which is the capital bill. And we're also going to look at a few specific projects where we have asked for additional information.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Perfect. So, everyone. John Gray, Vice President of Council. We've got a Scott address.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: It's Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So I'm gonna screen share with you guys. This is the first draft of the this committee's proposed set of amendments to the county bill. You will note that this is not in the form of a strike call. I should think you're often accustomed to seeing that. This is just providing specific instance of amendment to the underlying capital bill from last year accurately sorry, to the proposal we come over from the house. So it's gonna be shorter than the full capital bill. It's just gonna include the sections that need addressing to include the directions that I have to proceed. And I called out in the draft the differences against the house proposal in yellow highlight, and then green highlight is reflective of various that that may be fine, but which I understood may have further direction coming. And of course, any of them could have further direction coming. These are just the ones where I heard some interest.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So just so you know, the paper copy is black and white. Okay. It'll be on Oh the good, that'll be It'll be on

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: the screen. Perfect. It will be okay. I'll also say exactly what I meant as we get to the language. So, again, the form that you're gonna see here is instances of amendment rather than a full strike all. If the the set of directions I received was really extensive, I wrote just on strike all, but because it was fairly limited in the sections that it has, this is a nice way to do it that reduces page counts, and also makes clear where the actual differences are between the House and Senate, which, of course, matters for purposes of the conference committee. So section two, this is amending the underlying act three, section two, your advice and sincere BGS section of the bill. What you first see in FY '27 is a reduction in the major maintenance line of 01/5000. So major maintenance has been reduced by 125 bonded dollars FY '27, so what this does is it frees up that 125 k for additional bonding in different line items throughout the bonded sections of the bond. On page two, you see one of the first places which that 125,000 is redirected to, and that is for Subdivision 12, the Montpelier State House entryway upgrades, design docks, Cliff Primates, party pipe, and delivery truck access, and now an expanded purpose and 2nd Floor fire escape design, adding the 25,000 of that 125 k you took from major maintenance to that line, leaving a 100 k bond dollars yet to be assigned elsewhere in the draft versus Worldcon two. But the two things to note here, you bumped up that line item by 25, so it's now at 1,325,000, and you said that one of the additional purposes for these upgrades is the 2nd Floor of fire escape design for the State House. And of course that leads to flow through changes in the aggregate totals for the second. The second instance of amendment adds a new section to the underlying bill as received from the House. It doesn't add anything to the underlying Act 33 capital bill, right? It's just saying, for purposes of this amendment to the capital bill, this section is added. And so the reason it needed to be added is that the House version didn't touch any of the capital appropriations in section nine from last year, so there's no reason for it to be present. So you've added that in now, and for this particular purpose, I noted that 100 ks was left over in bonded dollars, FY '27, from the major maintenance line, and now you see that total 100 k is appropriated FY27 to the agency of natural resources for technical support to municipalities to design and implement stormwater utilities. Of course results in a bump to the aggregate total again of 100 k for the session. So that ties out the 125 ks redirection that you saw in section Q, and it's really distributed across both the statehouse entryway upgrade for that 2nd Floor tire escape design and, for this AR technical assistance to the entities for stormwater capabilities. The third instance of amendment is a larger section. This is amending the House's proposal as to what to do with the cash sections of bill, which you'll recall that the underlying act from last year are in section 19. You'll see the changes in how they can. So, on page four, you have a new line item, and just to call out why I stuck this in the middle of the list, so just adding it to the end of the list, typically the presentation of the cast sections is less trackable in some ways than the way the appropriations are set out in the bonded sections that are divided up by entity rate, but if you look to the cash section, what you'll see is that the line items are intended to follow essentially the same section ordering that occurs in the bonded sections. So that's why this was added as a new line item, Subdivision 3, and what you see here is the addition of $1,000,000 to BGS for statewide three acre parcel and stormwater compliance. I think this brings this closer, if I'm remembering correctly, I'm sure it's not good for us to get the product development, closer to the correct on this piece, if I remember. And we haven't yet obviously gotten to the point where it was made where we freed up cash for this purpose, so just to spoil that, you'll recall that the House version contained a $3,000,000 appropriation for WiFi installation, where that has been reduced down to 1,000,000, so that frees up 2,000,000, and this, a million of that is dedicated here, right, to this statewide three year compartials from order compliance. The next piece that we come to on page five, subdivision nine, to PTS for HS for door control upgrades at correctional facilities. If I recall correctly, the health proposal had 700 ks cash for this, and you have added 1,250,000. It doesn't really matter where the bucket of funds comes from, but because I just said that you took 2,000,000 from the WiFi, applied 1,000,000 to the line item above, you have added 1,250,000 to this. Right? It was at 700 k. Brought another 1,950,000. So 1,000,000 goes here. Where does that other 250 k come from? Yesterday, there had been discussions about, I think, $7.50 k is pulled from Employment facilities. Yeah. The replacement appointments facilities. And so $2.50 k of that redirection was put here, totaling 1,950,000,000. Big moves to the door control upgrades. The other piece you're gonna see here, subject which is twelve and thirteen, these are both the ACCD, the District for Historic Preservation, $2.50 k to each of the Historic Preservation Grant Program, and the Historic Farms Preservation Grant Program. Those would be 500 k of that $7.50 that you pulled from the placement limits of the subject.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So that's the delta, not the that's the additional. Right. But that's the only cash. That's why it's just we're just saying 250,000. So the 300,000 plus the 250,000. This is just the change.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Right. There was already 300,000 in bonding. And since that's not changing from the bill from the house, there's no need for there to be words to say that it's still $300,000 It was just adding the $2.15 can repeat itself. Okay.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah, we're adjusting the cash section. Yeah. So you're not gonna see the comparable line items in the bonded sections for these purposes. Those continue to exist differently. Next piece you're gonna see is what we've already spoken about. Bottom of page six, subdivision 22.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Let me just, just to be clear, because this is a different way of looking at things. So, the, not all of the items on the spreadsheet are listed here. Correct. So, are the items only, no. So is this a list of just what the House changed from the Governor rec and what we are proposing to change?

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: This is So the way to think about it is that the House proposal you can see the full scope of all the sections in the House proposal. Right. What is being done here is I heard specific directives as to what you wanted updated. For those provisions that are in alignment with what the House has already done in the bill, say that you're already doing section three, there's no reason that section three needs to appear here because you're not changing it. These are instances of amendment that touch what the House proposed. So these are updates essentially to the House proposal is the way to think that you could cobble this together with the House's version to see what the whole package is. And that is also to say that what is set out is the entirety of each section in which you are amending what the House did, but it does not mean that everything in that section is something that you're touching. So any of the non highlighted figures are exactly as the House proposed. So in Subdivision 21, the five sixty six k climate control unit that's consistent with the House, the reason you see it here is because you are otherwise amending section 19.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So it's part of that section, so that's

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: why Exactly. Oh, okay. That's So you can think of it as you would cobble together each of these things. You would take them and replace what the House did with this section, and if we look at the lead in language, that's exactly what you'll see. For each of the instances of amendment, we'll scroll back up to page three, the third instance of amendment by striking out section nine in its entirety and inserting in lieu thereof a new section nine. It's decided, delete the houses section nine and replace it with this new section nine.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay, so it's by its dash.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Then The house is the base.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Exactly, that's exactly right. And it kinda doubly

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: That's what we would be doing anyway, but okay.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yep, it uses the house as the base, and then of course you have the oddity to that in the second year of the biennium, The bill itself is also in the form of amendments to the prior year's capital bill. It looks sort of odd, but save some trees. At the bottom of page six, we were just talking about Subdivision 22. This is the cash appropriation to DOC, the cash authorization for installation of WiFi system. State correctional facilities. That had been at 3,000,000 in the house's past version. That's been reduced by 2,000,000 down to one. And then on page seven, I'll explain why I have this highlighted in a second. This is the same line item that we will see in the houses, to BGS for HS for replacement, appointment to reentry, correctional facilities. I understand that you may want to change the scope of this line item, so that is why isn't it green? Currently, text just reflects the line item as the house had it, and this is reducing by seven fifty ks, so this had been 1,250,000 in the house past version, and now you have this down to 500. And all of those figures should net out so that you haven't evened them.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yes, and they will continue to net out because we gave the appropriations or Okay,

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: so that is all of your dollar sections.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: And then I can that I checked all of John's numbers, and they do match the spreadsheet, which sometimes is easier to track the flow of the entirety of the bill. The bill, as we've mentioned before, is also moving parts between cash, bond, and to your fingers, multiple sections. And Don's language is try and get to just call out the couple of changes I was making. But I did check all the numbers, and Don did a good job.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Good. So far. So far.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Well, we're

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: not done. Fortunately, I don't feel the need to prove my stuff.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Alright.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: That finishes the. Okay, well, did it. So, now we're going through this.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Exactly. So, up to this point, we've been speaking about the dollar sections, and we are now switching gears into the policy sections. So the fourth instance of amendment, this is page seven, line four, adding a new section 14A, again just for orientation purposes, you may wonder why there's an A after this, this is being added to the set of policy sections that fall under the BGS Assistance heading in the House Pass purchase. So that's why it's located there, doesn't really matter if you get it as purchased, but if you're wondering, that's why it is worth today. And what this does, very simple, repeal of authority in the 2023 Capitol Bill Act 69 for authority for BGS to sell 110 Snakes Creek. That was conditional on a number of things. If you're interested, I can pretty quickly find that act and pull it up, but this is just for appealing that authority, which I understood did not have an appetite to continue to extend that on boarding to EGS for selling that property.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Right, and I'll speak to that. I'll just speak to that now. So, I did check-in with EGS on this. So, those of you who were here, I think it was just Senator Ingalls. We gave BGS the authority to sell 110 State Street, is the building on the corner. It hasn't been sold, obviously. It's been three years, four years since then. I think that building is important and that

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Why did why hasn't it been sold on chairs? Because it's under FEMA's purview, and so we can't sell it until or we can, but we have FEMA dollars coming in to fix the flood data to spend. So it hasn't been marketed because they've

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: been waiting for FEMA scholars.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Right, but several of our conditions have changed. The state's looking at different methods of where employees work. There's a lot of moving parts and I've heard from folks that they want that building to in the the ownership of the state and I support, obviously support it because I requested it. And we can talk about it more if you like. We can get testimony. Okay. The

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: fifth instance of amendment, this is something I did not draft, I would just suggest that if you're going into detail on this, would want to bring in my colleague, Mike O'Grady, but I'm happy to just hit these real quick. So these are, it's a new reader assistance heading, new set of sections related to stormwater utilities. I think there's some control, some concern from the chairs I understood about taking away certain powers from the municipalities. So this is amended title 24. You can see the existing statutory language. Any municipality this is current law. Any municipality may adopt bylaws to implement stormwater management and control consistent with the program developed by the Secretary of Natural Resources under title X, and the new language that you see, the creation of a regional stormwater utility under statute or rules of A and R China prevent a munis from regulating stormwater under the subdivision putting adoption by the municipality of a municipal stormwater utility, so I think that's to be saying that the new existence of a regional stormwater utility is not expensive, or municipal. But again, if you want to go into detail, would bring in Piper Brady. You can see the remainder of this section, Municipality shut on chart and pervious surface fee for other stormwater fees under the subdivision or under other provisions of this title on properties regulated under the required ag practices, just churches of ag waste or ag of public sourcing issue. On page eight, you have a new section added to Title 24, municipal authority to authorize and operate stormwater utility. Again, the creation of a regional stormwater utility under statute four rules of the ANR shall not prevent a municipality regulating stormwater under this chapter with the adoption by the municipality of a bylaw authorizing the operation of the municipal stormwater utility that establishes an assessment of the equivalent residential unit or pervious service. So, making a similar point here, creation shot, prevent that municipality from regulating storm water, that's chapter.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Right, and I'll just follow-up. Brady did get proposed to this or write draft this at my request. My request was that the regional stormwater utility, they do come to pass that they do not prevent municipalities from having storm water utilities. I talked a lot about storm water utilities yesterday and we will talk about them in the future when we get A and R folks here. The second section was something that Attorney O'Grady did to just clarify existing language. So, it doesn't add any additional authority to the municipalities. It's how I interpret it. We can talk to him about that, but it just preserves the authorities that they already have. And we'll have ANR in also. They're aware of this and we'll have them in next week. Any questions at this time?

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: My favorite section next, Section 20, this Act Texas Highway Passage. That's it. That is the whole piece. I got my little notes here with all the line items, so if you have questions, although I know that Scott's here, you guys love his spreadsheet, so yeah, happy to answer any questions Thank you

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: you. Anybody have questions?

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: All right.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Do you guys mind if I run into finance? I'm also happy to stay here.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: No, no, it's fine. Okay. And so we can text you

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: or Yep. I'm talk to literally next door so I can just jump back and forth as needed. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: You sure, I'm wisely. Thank you.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: I love it. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So you guys, lots of things going on.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Happy Friday.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: You too.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: So as John went through the numbers, there isn't any more that I would necessarily add to the numbers. I would just point out the one difference in the spreadsheet I gave you yesterday is that we did reduce line 52, which was for the agricultural affairs, by $250,000 and added that to line 28, which is the statewide door controls. Other than that, the spreadsheet remains the same. I did print a new copy if you want it. You can have it. Other than that, you can keep your estimates as long as you have a note.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: I think we're okay. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: I'd like to give BGS a chance to speak and also I'm presuming that you are keeping track of what we're doing. So, so if you haven't, well there's some things that we didn't, that we talked about yesterday that you weren't part of. So I just wanna make sure that, you know, if you have any questions about what we're doing or why we're doing it. But I I I would like to hear from you, like, about the those three projects specifically. Doors. Deluxe. Okay. Okay. So, start with the door controls.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner of Buildings and General Services for the record.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction for BGS. So

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: yesterday, when we were here and discussed the differences between the governor's recommend, the house passed version, and then the numbers that this committee is considering. We understood that there was a desire to understand sort of the practical implications of different funding levels. And so after the House passed version, Secretary Clark sent a letter which described those impacts on a few projects, including the door controls. And in that memo, we conveyed that the funding level on that house passed version would result in delay to the project as a whole and that we are already under contract. And so we understand that this committee is contemplating increasing the funding amount over what the house passed, but still less than the governor's recommend. And so Joe is going to speak with more detail as to what that would mean for the project and its ability to move forward. Yes. That's okay.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: For the control, if you don't have a complete funding, it's something that would have to be shaved off of the project, and this is a security project. So the problem with that is with that cut, we may not be able to do all the project. So some of that has to come into play that you know, to assess it. Right now, we have a construction manager actually bidding this work out in next couple of weeks. We'll have an actual dollar amount. What will happen if we don't get the additional funding? I will then have to work with that construction manager on what to cut and what to delay. Both of those will come at an expense later on to try and add them back into the package.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So you still don't know the cost?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I don't know. I don't have the actual breakdown of the cost that we've been working until we actually get the estimate or the proposal from the construction manager. We have been shaving the original estimate with 95% construction documents complete. The construction manager came to us with over $10,000,000 for an estimate. So we've been shaving off 2,000,000 right off the top to try and get into our $8,000,000 project cost. So with this additional 1,000,000, we're gonna be greater in the whole.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: And so the number, right,

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Joe,

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: that you're talking about, we're going to receive is our guaranteed max buff price. Yes. Right? And so that's when we'll know with more specificity exactly what the total project cost is. But again, working with our estimate and what we originally initially got from construction manager, we've been trying to whittle it down to get the scope down and the overall cost down. So any reduction in funding at this point from the doctor's recommended, he believes, will that delay and could cause us to have to reduce scope? Yes.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: When you say reduce scope, how detrimental is that to the overall project?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I don't know yet until the bids come in and you actually see the breakdown of where that is and then where you try and shave where there's the least amount of impact that could be added in later. But that's not always in the later part of it may not be the least expensive in the long run.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: And do you even know if that's feasible at this point? I do not.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: We don't have time to assess at this point, like, and not knowing for sure what we'd be working with, if there's a reduction, you know, we haven't gone through and said, you know, this is what we shape, this is what we shape. It's important to know that not only from a budget perspective, there's efficiency and including everything we want to do at once, but especially in our correctional facilities, there is an operational consideration, right? We want to reduce our disruption, our work in the facilities, you know, there are folks in there 20 fourseven. That's where it's really important for us to combine everything at once. If we're in a position where we have to cut things out that are really critical that we're then going to have to address later, there's a disadvantage to having to do that.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Perfect. Just to ask you, and actually Scott, can

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: you tell me that, because we talked about different numbers and moving a few things around, from what the Governor's request is to what the current version is, what's the difference?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: The Governor's recommendation is currently $750,000 higher than what the current balance is.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: So we're talking about a shortfall.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I was trying to get

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: my head around the numbers. Shortfall of 7 and 50 ks.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: The governor wanted to put 2.7. The house dropped that to just 700,000. And then we added that 1,250,000. So we're at $1.09 $5.00. They want $2.07 $0.00. Difference of 750,000. Thank you.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Of course.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: And then that's for two sites, right? So what's the proportion?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Two facilities, Northeast Regional Correction Facility and the Calhouni Community Work Camp. Yes. One site acreage wise.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: So I just make sure that we're only one location. Okay. Two different separate complexes. Camp versus Correctional Facility.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay. So the Work camp, I haven't been to that one. Need to go to that.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: First building you pass as you drive into the main facility. But they're interconnected. I cannot not change the door locks at the community work camp. Otherwise, I have to put in the camera system. Otherwise, I would have to run two systems.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay. So it's so they are

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: They are connected. Yes. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So it makes sense. It it wouldn't make sense to do

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: them one at a time. Correct.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Did you sorry. I'm just trying to move around here. It's much. Apologies. No worries.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So, and you're gonna have contracts in a couple weeks.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: Yeah, we have a contract. But you have a contract with the construction manager.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Correct. And then so now what happens when the bids come in, we will review the bids. If we have the funding for all of the work, then we will write a change order through that to incorporate everything that's in what's called the guaranteed maximum price.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Oh, good. And then they start. Alright. Okay. Any other questions?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: No. I I think I understand where you're at. If if you don't have the money you're in, look for shaving or you're not gonna. Correct.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: And I mean, prices of some items are just changing very much. I don't know.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: They're all high right now. I could not tell you what the new. Door lock would cost, but it's upwards of $3,000. And that that's the only lock itself. Not installing it into frames that have to be modified at that facility. The existing locks are under 10 volts. And we're going to lower the temperature. So all that wiring all has changed now.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: And how often do you do this?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Not very often. In the 90s we did a door lock replacement at the Northwest State Correction Facility. Otherwise, the other facilities have been going on. This facility in Rutland and Chitney has been going along since they were constructed.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Oh, okay. Okay. So this happens, like, every twenty years or something?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Yes. Everything changes in the lock. It's it's not as bad as paint colors or, toilets, but it is, you know, along that line technology changes and they get better. Older facilities like that, 110 volt locks can only be worked on by an electrician. It cannot be just one of our maintenance mechanics. So plus it's safer. If anybody is able to get into the lock system, they don't have a 110 volts there. It's only got the. And it's also used with pneumatics as opposed to just electricity. So pneumatics and light bulking lock on that style of monitor. They keep the door closed. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: And then is this the last one? Or is this the last one?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: We still have Rutland will be next. Then I'm not sure if it's Chittenden and St. Albans or St. Albans and Chittenden. Okay. So we'll

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: need to type in this more. Boiler. So

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: the boiler replacement, this is one the governor's recommend was that screen just just went to sleep, 2,000,000, and then it was reduced by the house to 1,000,000, which the latest version of the spreadsheet, we understand this committee is maintaining that funding level. This is again a critical project for the facility. Currently, the system is not functioning as it should, and we're having to rely on other energy sources or will have to rely on other energy sources if we're not able to complete this work.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Right. So presently right now, we've lost our smoke stack. Portion of it has rusted, and it's a is an extension off of the existing basement chimney, but that has failed. We've had to pull that off and we have to get that reworked. So until that is done, because of the air quality standards, we need the height of the chimney to be operating the wood boilers. So we're not operating the wood boilers right now, and the Department of Corrections is operating off a number to the fuel level. Operating our active safety permit requires us to be operating off of work as much as possible versus oil. So the wood chip plant all that we're planning for takes the requirements of corrections to have incarcerated individuals out there taking chunk of wood from out in the yard, hauling them into a room, and then

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: from the room into the

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: boilers, which is very laborious twenty four seven throughout the winter. And they've had issues both in, you know, being able to put an officer on the individual who's out there and then maintaining it and then operating properly. One of the reasons why our smokestack has failed is because we'd have a chimney fire.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Because you did not.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Oh, we had a chimney fire. That helped in the process of cutting that. It is that is not our first. We have had many over the years. So the woodshed will take that out of play. There's not, you know, the requirement and labor of stacking the wood in the yard, hauling the wood into the room, throwing the wood into the barn.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: So again, this for our Act two fifty compliance is an important project as well as operationally and programmatically for DOC to move from what they have with the chunk wood to chips. And then again currently we're having to rely on number two to fuel and that would continue if we're not able to leave us. So

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: one of the things as I recall we heard from the house was that you also had to deal with a couple of stormwater problems and that how you were going to deal with that was not fully vetted as of yet and so it was questionable whether at the timing you would be able to move forward with this project and actually use the money. And I think I recall, Joe, when you made your presentation that that's been figured out or and so if you could just sort of speak for that. That has been worked out. So I don't

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: know, as you know, in the engineering world, once you get direction, it can't turn around quickly. We have finally figured out how we can fit our drainage ponds, stormwater ponds, on-site and not impact our heat plans. They had to be moved, but not a lot. But now what we're doing is we're full stream ahead now to get our permit in place for our storm water. We are hoping that that will go well and that we could actually start relocating those ponds this fall and have it in place. That way in the spring, we should be able to start our foundational work through the book of it.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: Joe, if I'm remembering correctly that there's a desire to preorder here. Yes. And that's why just from a timing perspective, like again, we do believe we have good progress on the stormwater and we think there's a good path forward there. But additionally, we want to pre order some of the equipment for this project. And we think that waiting, one, puts the overall timeline at risk as well as could present a cost increases.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Sure. So the long lead items for this project are the boiler itself, And then I'll say that's approximately six months from the time it's actually shop drawings have been approved and it gets ordered. So once it's ordered to the time it arrives, it's about six months. And then we also have the red iron, the structure for the building itself is another lead item that we want to do. That's what's roughly about four months out to have that in place.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Alright. So the stormwater permit is

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: is We're completing our design right now and then we'll be shortly reapplying for a permit. Alright.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So that's news.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Yes. And we have been working with A and R because of how tight that site is with the ponds. I where it's we have decided where we can make it work.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Mhmm.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: They have seen it. They haven't provided any feedback. That that's not a good idea. So I'm gonna assume that permitting will go up.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, that's good news. Alright? Yes.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Okay. So if I, again I'm just curbing what you're saying, to say you are ready to move forward basically, but if you don't have the full 2,000,000 you, how does that affect your schedule? We stay with the 1,000,000, I'm

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: just trying to understand how that affects schedule and the project. How that would affect the schedule is the pre ordering of the scale and the boiler. Yeah. Because I gotta have a whole foundation in place for that boiler to be set in place halfway through the steel erection process. It could be before all the steel, but I want it close enough that that boiler gets enclosed because all of it is, you know, it's a lot of it is raw cast iron. It is to do well out in the rain. So that is part of that is to preorder and then also be able to so the spring hits to get out there and start that foundation with it so that everything is in place and ready to go to receive it. Then there's the, you know, the installation of the boiler, the whole chip delivery system trenching over the existing building for the hot water lines that are circulating back and forth in the pumps and black gold, that big stuff. That will be kind of a little bit later in the project.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: So to put it another way, this it would add delay because we wouldn't be moving forward on preordering those lofty items. If we didn't have the full.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So you can put this in writing for us. Right? Yeah. So that okay.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: So not playing engineer, but it's hard.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah. It's okay. You just just admit. It's okay.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: If we again,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I'm just trying to make sure for everybody we clearly understand is, you know, theoretically, you could move forward building, leaving the end wall off so to speak, and then come back later and put the boilers in. It would mean about a year's delay in the project though.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I don't know the exact delay because I have it scheduled to get exactly when we're start other than springtime. Well, if you even have the money Right. If I have the money order before Right. There there is that. And and it's to have me have enough to complete a portion of the project that it falls onto the next biennium when we are looking for an additional $2,000,000 to complete it. So that's a part of that problem. There's still gotta be It's not don't

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Another million beyond

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I mean, 2,000,000 beyond this one. Gotcha. So Okay. But, yes, it would delay. If I don't get that started and get it and get the stuff ordered, then there very well could be a delay. So that would be a discussion with construction managers to, you know, how do you see this play out?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: And this has been delayed a little bit previously. We've been talking about

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: a new boiler up there for quite some time. Correct? I mean,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I think we're on our second capital bill or maybe even third capital

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I forget the actual year. We got 2,500,000. 3,500,000. There was a reallocation of a million. So we're sitting on roughly 2,100,000 right now. That means these funds right here. So it it's yes. It has been in the works.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Alright. So if you can send us something in writing about the schedule, that would be really helpful. Do you have, like, a standard example of how you Yeah, or just finding projects, the budget, the schedule, what it's gonna do.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: High level, but I don't you know, this this is more specific now that we're taking into account the preordering

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: And arrival. But I don't have that detail yet because we're still in design phases. We haven't had our construction manager develop.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah. It's fine if you don't know the detail, but if you can just give us a summary of what you've said today Sure. That would be helpful. And the details that you've said today. Okay. Because things have changed since

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: we talked about it previously. Okay.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: I think the last was on the three acre stormwater

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: compliance.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: And so just trying to find if

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: it does something like spreadsheet. So,

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: house the had, cost cost version had reduced, down to, 1,100,000 from the governor's recommended by this tiny 2,600,000. I understand the committee's looking at adjusting the house version by a million up to 2.1. Joe. Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: We were putting a million back.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: Yes, putting a million back. Again, Joe, can you speak to any practical implications of the funding amount having a gap currently from the governor's recommend?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: That's half $1,000,000,000. Right.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: What we're looking at is we're gonna have five projects out shortly. The Middlesex is already out for bid. The Northwest State Correction Facility will be going out shortly. The Pittsburgh facility is under review, and then that one will be going out probably, hopefully, end of the month, maybe probably in May. And those will be well underway, and then comes Newport. And because of the funding and everything else is Newport really becomes a bigger priority over the probably the Pittsburgh side. So what I'd be looking to do is starting to move things around to make sure that I have enough money to complete Newport so that that doesn't create a bigger catastrophe dollar wise and project wise for us in Newport. And then in Pittsburgh, you know, depends on what the cost comes in first. We need middle sass? Are there enough money or not? But that would be one of those once that hits the street, whether or not this will have the impact on our good enough crop consumption. So said it differently,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I think the house's concern was that you weren't ready,

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: but had you you have this money, you are ready. You can you can change priorities, and you can you can be ready. Yeah. The change in priority is certainly with Newport. Now that we have a resolution up there to make that one, at least the third one in line, ready to go. Montpelier, we still have to do, but that one is on hold because that will we have to incorporate any potential work, the storm water with the whole redevelopment of the FEMA and everything else. So but department of labor, that one's up next also. John here in Montpelier. Relatively easy to do. Again, no cost.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So the and the labor is just their building?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: It's the building in the parking lots that are out there. Gave you more parking lot than there was building square footage.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: So I mean, he's doing our utilities.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: It already has a storm water system, but we will wanna double the size of that to capture the red shirt.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Are you looking at reducing the amount of impervious?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: No. Because we do need parking there.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: The holes spot? The space? Yes.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: So this was reflected in the secretary's letter, but overall, these are compliance requirements, not optional projects for us. And from a timing perspective, again, like we are able to shift, know, prioritize where we have funding available and any reduction of your results and less ability for us to meet our requirements in the near term and then higher funding needs in future years.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: And how much time do you have once you get a permit defense shift?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: It's a five year limit. But then you're up against what comes up next year for

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: priorities. Sure. Sure.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, at least, I mean, you have your storm water, your three acre areas established. Mean, they're determined unless you have the state ends up with more property. And what have you done already? I mean, you've done quite a lot already.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: We have designs complete up through Pittsburgh and working on right now at Northern State. And like I said, Middlesex is on the street right now.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: No. But I'm saying, I mean, didn't you have projects from previous years?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: No. No. These are the projects that are just now getting out

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: the door. Oh, that's interesting. Yes. So Alright.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Right. Maggie.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah. Go ahead. So I

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: think what I heard, just clarify, the Pittsburgh, is that actually already out to bid or under contract? Is that-

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: So my program team do a final review before it goes to, goes out

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: to bid. All right. And so what you're, what you're saying is you're probably gonna change priorities from, well that may be ready to go, to Newport, because you need Newport in order to deal with the boiler piece, with that, so in reality, you'll have a need for probably even more funding maybe next year, to carry these through, and you'll balance whether, again I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but what I'm hearing is once you know what Newport is you determine whether or not you even go out to bid for it's for given the amount of money that you have available. Yes. So there'd be potentially a project in waiting.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Well, there's definitely one that'll be that is permitted in waiting. We still have to then finish clear. Forgetting my other side.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Got it. So and then let me just back that up. One more piece is if we stay with the level of funding currently which is a half $1,000,000 and less and I know you don't have the numbers yet for Pittsburgh but would you see then having to take another project potentially off the schedule and hold for the next round of funding or do you think you could still get those done? My follow-up.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I think the ones that are going to be permitted out the door this year, I believe I'll have the money based on what we had for estimates going forward for, But it could be good for. But what I don't know yet is what is the big market out there? Sure. And, you know, we'll find out in a couple of weeks. And and that will start setting that tone. And then that, you know.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I'm trying to understand about the potential ramifications of not having that half $1,000,000 if we can still move all the projects we're ready to go with forward or whether that takes one off and puts it on the shelf for another year. That's that's dry. Correct.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: And that sitting on the shelf for a year is will increase cost. Sure. Labor rates do go up. Absolutely. Definitely.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Sometimes there are there are spikes. Did you so last year, you talked about in the in this letter, about previous year funding, did you use all the funding that you've had previous years? We

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: have not. It is sitting there waiting to go. I mean, it was always banking, the money to get there. When this first landed you know, allowed to start putting something together, our estimate originally was over $50,000,000 to complete this market.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: For all of them? For all of

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: are down to 10, I think, right now.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Your estimate?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Our estimate is 10.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, that's good.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Because we know more than when it first came out and how our impacts our properties and what we can get done. The Mhmm. The construction climate and what it brings, anything right now that is under pavement, our estimates are off because cost of the asphalt is skyrocketing themselves, and that's based on the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah. Diesel fuel And we view it on the roads. So

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: Yes. So, you know, it's not only only for the vehicles, but it's also in Right. Asphalt. So Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Just one other question. Do you ever use, the pigment that counts as pervious?

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: We do not. We did try more as. Yeah. We did try an experiment years ago.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah. The old stuff, it it wasn't

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: It failed. I know ALT has an experiment going on at parking lot at Exit 4. They went from pavement into concrete and trying that. But you still need equipment to clean it, you know, out there. And so it's a high That's big Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Right. And then it doesn't count on your feet either. So

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: I think some of it does still. So I think that's

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, they some 100%

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: of it. But it is because of the high labor to keep it cleaned out. That's your. It's Just the snow, the slush falling off of a vehicle brings a lot of sand with it, and that just bugs the holes. Yeah. You can't get any cleaning those until the spring of

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: each year. Yeah. The other issue in cold climates is introducing water into the space.

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: No. It's coming out. Yeah. I know.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, But,

[Joe Major, Director of Design and Construction, BGS]: But, yes, then. So are we trying to use your chairs? No.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay. Alright.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: So if I could, madam chair, just, again, listening to what we heard,

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: saying Okay. As we

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: added everything back in that you were requesting, and that about 2 and a quarter million dollars that we would have to find somewhere else.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: I'm gonna trust him.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, then this one also would be helpful if you could write write it down. Sure. Thank you. Okay. And actually, do you Emily, do you have anything to talk add to the Wi Fi conversation that we've been having? So

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: we just support DOC in their recommendation to do further analysis. Again, we promote From a policy or technology security standpoint, you know, we're not the experts. We will be here to support the installation process to the extent that it touches the facility itself. But, you know, we at EGS, like, we don't have the information at this point to be able to speak to exactly what would be involved or what the cost of that would be. We just haven't been part of the conversation to know enough to put out a reasonable reasonably important estimate to any of that. So we do agree that some additional analysis, and we would work closely with our partners at ADS, DOC to get that completed to know better over the next few months.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: And we need the ADS. Because it's your challenge, it's our challenge. Okay.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: All right. So,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: do you that we have I would like a little bit more information on the on the Wi Fi. I do want to hear from ADS before we make a decision on that. Do you I mean, we can put this off until next week deciding on these items.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: That's fine. I mean,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: been a of a long week.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: As long as we don't have

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: to make a determination of buying the money today.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: No, no, we don't.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: As much as those folks need to do.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yes. What we had to do bytes today was give the dollars for the cash to appropriation. And that's what I did. I gave them the amount that we haven't proposed changing at all. Let's go back to that.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Madam Chair, the one thing I might say is if you, because Wi Fi was in cash, if you wanted to reduce the cash in Wi Fi and put it somewhere else, folks will want to be in the loop on that.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay, but we can do bonded dollars if

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: we can. The bonded dollars as much as you would like.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Right, so our options are still, we still have options.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I get you, so what you're saying is if we wanted to reduce the Wi Fi, well, is there any bond

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: in dollars in y why there's nothing. So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, we can move other dollars. I mean, one challenge in our system is that bonded dollars and cash dollars are not used for as different types of projects, phases as was the intent that's applied to. Yeah.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I agree that the testimony we just heard is they need a quarter billion dollars.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yeah. That that's what I was about to say. I mean,

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: it we we don't even need 3,000,000. Right. This because we only need a quarter million this year because they have to I

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: don't even know why we can't make

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Member)]: that decision, like, right now. Since

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: we're German into it, it does sound like so 750,000 of that is not even for the Wi Fi. As we've heard from the FC, but we have heard from the FC that they can use $40,000,000, which is new. So and then the 750 put back the door controls of bringing that back to the government's recommendation. We heard about the two other projects that also should be delayed more later on.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: No, that's good. And that might very well be where we end up, but I'd still like to have the information on the projects. I mean, I've been taking a lot of notes, but I'd rather have the information. Yeah. I

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: think We gotta

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: be more fine.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: If we don't have to make

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: any more decisions today, then it

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: makes sense to get the information so everybody knows. Yeah.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: We hear that we need to know or they all I know appropriations was going to do a straw poll today on their budget, so therefore they haven't actually passed the budget out of appropriations. Yep. If there were to be a swiggle of a couple of dollars, as long as we got that to them before they go to the bill out, I think they would be fine. So for instance, again, I'm not suggesting this follows a change, just saying how it mechanically would work. If today or Tuesday we said, let's take that $1,000,000 we've left, take $500 out, take $3 out, whatever, move it somewhere else. They would want to know that before they actually let up the final bill. But knowing that now the chair gave them, here's the general template, I think that was what they needed for today. And if we were to take and move the dollar drop a little bit, it wouldn't be as large of a deal. But if we said, let's not pay any of that $23,000,000 in cash and leave us somewhere else, that would be a bigger issue.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Right. Good, thank you. Okay, so then let's get the information from the BGS, I think is all that we asked. And we did ask for information from DOC. So hopefully we'll get that Tuesday. By Tuesday or Monday would be great. And then we can make a decision on Tuesday. We still have some policy items, storm water utilities are working on getting folks to testify on that. Is there any other testimony that folks would like to have?

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: I know John had highlighted in green some of the language you might want for BGS and the women's potential prisons. I don't know if you

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay. If

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: you're content with with what you have there. That's one thing since we have BGS in the room. You want to hear from them about any potential language, and I know you answered yesterday, you may be to send John something. Don't know the feedback. Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: I thank you

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: for that.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: I did send John some language that from our perspective would work well if the committee chose to pursue, that approach for flexibility.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay. So we don't have that language yet. Don't.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Bang on the wall.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: He said it was helpful. Well, that's a good sign. Yeah.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Can see if you do have to do what you want to bring John back right now.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Sure. Sure. Yeah. We'll learn more.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Okay. Just because you have a place with grandma, I think it makes sense.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Yes. That makes sense. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. We're still we're still live.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Oh, we'll sing.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Okay. Do we wanna stay alive? My

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: heart. Okay. Okay.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Just put it on my heart.

[Emily Kinsicki, Deputy Commissioner, Buildings & General Services (BGS)]: So you're on the record. Right. Not like. Okay.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: Right now, that's just hearsaying.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Okay. Because he doesn't. That's fine.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: John is literally about to sit down in the fitness chair next door, and they'll send him over as soon as he's done talking.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Alright. So could be a while.

[Scott Moore, Joint Fiscal Office]: They said could just do all them maybe ten minutes.

[John Gray, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So Alright.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Institutions Committee)]: Well, let's adjourn for ten minutes. And if he's not back by then, we might adjourn for the day. K. For those of you