Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay, we are here in Senate institutions and today is Tuesday, February 24. And our first item is going to be to have a walkthrough of the miscellaneous DMV bill, and that's a bill that's in the Transportation Committee, and we're not taking possession of the bill, but the Transportation Committee asked our committee to weigh in on the section that is focused on corrections. And so we have two attorneys here, which is going to be very helpful.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Better than one right here.

[Wendy Harrison]: I'll just say To

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: play your perspective. I'll let you

[Wendy Harrison]: all explain the process that occurred already in the house because I think it's helpful to know that the house committees did look at this from a corrections point of view and the motivation was to improve corrections. So, Hillary, if you don't mind coming up first, that

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: would be great. Thank you.

[Wendy Harrison]: And we haven't introduced ourselves today because this is your first time and I'm so glad you're here. Wendy Harrison, and I'm, I represent the Windham District.

[Joseph "Joe" Major]: Joe Major, Windsor District. John Benson, the Orange District.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: Senator Russ Ingalls, Essex District. I apologize for being late. Same thing about me, you're in the hallway right now. Yeah, we've discussed her. Yep, thank you.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Nice to meet you all. For the record, Hillary Chatter Ames for the Office of Legislative Counsel. Do I have

[Wendy Harrison]: permission to share this? Yes, please, thank you.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: Rumblings and finals. Yeah. Finals can hear about sticks. I hear some of Yeah. Rumble, rumble, rumble.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Yeah. They're really good. These sessions are about providing individuals leaving correctional facilities with non driver IDs, replacement licenses, and replacement learner's permits at no cost. That's big question. As the chair mentioned, the kind of procedural history of these sections is more interesting than it sometimes is. House corrections had a bill looking just at non driver identification cards. Under current law, folks who are sentenced for six months or more can get non driver identification cards at no cost. And House of Corrections was looking at whether to expand that to people who had been detained. So pretrial detention, not sentenced folks. They will be expanding it that way. The senate transportation also had in the original s three twenty six provisions about expanding the provision of credentials to sentenced individuals to not just non driver FTEs, but also replacement licenses and permits at no cost. So since they were covering a lot of the same ground, we've coordinated such that house corrections has taken a straw vote on the language you've seen here in approval. And I my understanding is that they will be voting on that language officially later this week.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay, if you could, my understanding of the problem that is trying to be solved here is that it's challenging for folks when they get out of corrections to get an ID. It's another hurdle and the IDs are critical to all of the things that they need to do, many things that they need to do when they're on parole because that's how you identify yourself and so that's the reason behind this. That's my understanding from these house corrections discussion and witness testimony.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: I think house corrections raised it as removing barriers for people reentering, whether that's after sentence or after a longer period of detention. Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: I'm sorry. No, go ahead. Thank you. Is the period of detention, and

[John Benson]: I'm sorry, I hadn't read read

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: the bill. Is the period of detention spelled out in the bill?

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Yeah. So, in current law, current law already provides that DOC and DMV coordinate to provide individuals who are extensions for six months or more with a non driver ID card. So that six months time frame is in current law. There have been a lot of questions about where six months came from, and no one has found or provided an answer other than they picked six months. True. I think there's there was some discussion about the fact that at least for detained individuals, some are in for very short periods and others are in for longer periods. So there were some intent to have a slightly longer period when these provisions were expanded to detained individuals. But across the board in the bill, it uses that six months, either sentenced for six months or more or detained for six months or more, but there hasn't been a a clear answer from anyone exactly why.

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: The driver's license, get getting the actual card is basically just if you already have a driver's license and your record is fine, then you get a new driver's license. Otherwise, you get it on Is that am I right as far as

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: More or less. So the reason that the bill and we can dive into the language shortly. But the reason the bill talks about replacement licenses is for exactly that reason that DMV can replace a license that someone has that's been expired for three years or less or that is still valid. But they can't do

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: expired as well because you may have I didn't think about it. Okay.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: So I'll let the DMV expert weigh in if I if I get this wrong. But my understanding is that if the license has been expired for more than three years, at that point, DMV would have to do a new road test such that it's no longer a replacement license. You have to come in and do the whole process all over again. Okay.

[John Benson]: Yes. So just to follow-up on that, is the six month time frame also pertain to renewal of driver's license? Because I could see somebody if they're, you know, incarcerated for less than six months and their license expires, then what would you, what would we do? Would they be put back out on the street with an expired license and then they'd have to go through the process of renewal?

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: So as currently drafted, that person would not be eligible for a free replacement license. When they're released, they would go to DMV and they would have to go through the regular replacement process and pay a fee.

[John Benson]: So, I don't know, it's something we might want to talk about because what we're trying to do, I think, by this bill and others is set people up for success when they leave the facility, and so this kind of just leaves a gap in that.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: One thing I will mention, and again, this is gonna previews where we'll go

[Wendy Harrison]: with the bill language, but

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: So please don't Of course.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Be yep. Do that. That the bill has sections. This is the one titled 23. It's organized. It basically has different sections for all the different credentials. So there's a section for non driver IDs. There's a section for operator's licenses, and there's a section for learner's permits. So the bill, you know, adds subsections to each of those different pieces with respect to each of the different credentials. The process that the bill provides for folks who are sentenced to six months or more and for folks who are detained is different. Because if you know that someone is sentenced to six months or more, you know someone's sentenced, you know when they're getting out. You have a firm date when they are leaving the correction facility. So DOC DMV can coordinate under their current process to provide the individual with the card when they're released. That's the process for folks who are sentenced to sex abuse or more. For detained individuals, DOC does not always know when they're being released. They might go to court and be ordered, released, sometimes served immediately. They might bail might get posted and DOC doesn't have a way to predict when that will happen. So the discussion was that for detained individuals, they couldn't use the same process that they used for sentenced folks of actually getting the card because they couldn't predict timing of when to get it for them. So for detained individuals, the bill provides a little bit of a different process. Currently, DOC will help the sentenced individual to gather the required documents. So namely, it's a Social Security number and a birth certificate. You also need to be a resident of Vermont after release, and DOC will help with some documentation regarding where someone expects to be living after release. So for detained individuals, DOC will gather those documents, provide the individual with the documents at the time of release, and then the individual will go to DMV and can get the part at that point for no fee. But it avoids that challenge of predicting when do we order the card. It takes three weeks for DMV to send you take three weeks, several weeks at least, for DMV to send off or a card to be printed off-site and hard to get back. So those kind of logistical differences and the fact that DOC doesn't know when someone detained will be released means that the bill uses these two different processes for the different groups. That's my long way of saying that if you want to consider what it would look like to provide cards to folks who are sentenced for less than six months. At some point, if the sentence is short enough, that you might run into the same kind of challenge with detainees, just that DOC and DMV need enough time to gather the documents, order the card, and get it back. Right.

[John Benson]: But you did address part of what my concern because they're gonna help them have all of the documentation they need so when they're released, it's not like they're starting from ground zero.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: So the bill only does that for folks who are detained for six months or more. So to your point about whether there might be gaps, it does not cover someone who is sentenced for less than six months or someone who is detained for less than six months. But those are the kind of procedural options the the committee has considered given that depending on the time of sentence or time of detention, the timing might make one option, one option probable.

[Wendy Harrison]: And what happens currently?

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Currently in terms of process? Yes. So this was some very helpful testimony from DMV, and they may correct me if I get it wrong at any point. But currently, when someone is sentenced, because under current law, it's only folks who are sentenced to six months or more who are eligible, But DOC will mark that they're eligible. And then as part of reentry planning, they DOC will ask the individual, do you want the driver ID card? Do you want some other driving credential? And if the individual says yes, then DOC will help them obtain a birth certificate if they were born in Vermont. DOC shared that they have not been successful at getting birth certificates from other states, but they have agreement such that they can get birth certificates, social security numbers, and that documentation around address after release. DOC then sends that package to DMV. DMV, I think DMV said that they get a list kind of every two weeks or, you know, periodically from DMC, which they then put through their process to go from an application to a card. They send the card they send the kind of final card we printed off-site. It gets mailed back to DMV and goes to DOC central office in Waterbury. And from there, DOC will send it to the right facility. Or they said occasionally, the timing has been close enough that they haven't been able to get it to the facility before someone is released. In which case, they sent it to a probation office because the person had sort of wore back to probation at some point and they've been able to pick it up there. Think they've said maybe one or two times they've done it that way.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. So they are doing some of this already?

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Yes. So because current law already includes providing non driver IDs to folks who are sentenced for six months or more, DMV and DOC have a process and an MOU that lays that out for that group. They've shared that they would need a new MOU and process for detained individuals because that process looks different, but they have had some experience and practice, doing this already.

[John Benson]: Okay. So one quick question, so, he said, getting a birth certificate for somebody who's born in state is a system we have set up, but not so well for folk that are born out of state. So what happens in that case is the good faith effort is made and you can't come up with it, then you really can't provide that.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: That's my understanding of the testimony.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: Okay. Yeah.

[Damian Leonard]: The record, Damian Leonard from the Office of Legislative Council. So a part of it depends on where you are in the process. Because they So there are two different types of credentials. So if you think of the driving credentials that Hillary mentioned on it, we've got your non driver ID, so that's a non driving credential. You've got your driver's or what we call operator's license, which can also be an operator's privilege, which we can get to on the side end. Then you have your learner's permit. Within each of those, there's what we call a real ID and a non real ID. And real ID doesn't mean that the ID isn't any less real. It's just the name of the federal law. So I see heads nodding. Thank goodness. Yeah. This is often the most confusing thing here because I say non real ID and people say, well, isn't it an isn't an idea or not? It is an idea. But once the real idea is good for federal purposes, boarding a plane, going into a federal building or federal property, etcetera, the non real idea is good for state purposes. You can use it to buy beer at the store. You can use it to buy cigarettes. You can use it when you need to provide a form of ID because you're writing a check, something like that. Within those, for the real ID, you need to prove citizenship. And so if you can provide that birth certificate or a passport or something else, another valid proof of your citizenship or your legal residency in the country, you can get a real ID. If you cannot provide that, but you have the other documentation necessary, you may be able to get a non real ID, which instead of calling that an operator's license, we call it an operator's privilege card. Privilege to operate a motor vehicle in the state of Vermont, and it's but it's the non real ID equivalent. We also we provide these for anyone who either cannot provide documentation to prove that they're either a citizen or legally present in The United States or chooses not to do so. Because there are individuals who say, I'm not gonna share that with you. Just want the ID. And so that's one of the just little qualification there. So they may still be able to get something. Yeah. They just can't get the The real ID. The real ID version, which has little star and is good for the federal operations. And this is all different than the enhanced driver's license, which is you can use in place of a passport to cross into Canada and at certain other locations. So Okay. Thank you. Very

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: helpful clarification. And I think testimony from DMV was that they try to provide the highest credential they can based on what they get, what documents they get from DOC. So if you're eligible for a real ID, that's what they try to give you. And if not, they will look at other.

[Wendy Harrison]: And that's one of the changes in this. I mean, that's one of the main reasons, is to include REAL IDs.

[Damian Leonard]: There was something in the underlying motor vehicle bill. So what you see in front of you is what happened when, H 549, right? H549 and the motor vehicle bill provisions were merged to come up with this. So on the underlying motor vehicle bill, the DMV was asking for clarification on the non real ID and real ID documentation language because of feedback they've gotten from our federal counterparts asking for clarification about documentation and so forth. And we have another section of statute that's not laid out in the bill in front of you that goes in all the different documents that qualify and so forth and the federal regulations we comply with. But that was cleanup language that you're now seeing repeated throughout this. So it says provide documentation for a real ID or non real ID. And when you get into the issue and you can't get a birth certificate, you're now heading down the non real ID documentation path. Okay.

[Wendy Harrison]: So, how about we do a walkthrough? Alright.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: So, as I mentioned, what we have draft 2.2 of S3 26. As I mentioned, because of the way that title 23 is organized, there are a number of different sections that touch on the different credentials. So the bill amends these different sections twice to add provisions to specify that in addition to non driver IDs, folks who are sentenced for six months or more are entitled to replacement operator's licenses and learner's permits. And then also to add that for detained individuals, DOC will collect the documents and the individual can get the card at DMV at no cost for non driver IDs, replacement licenses, and replacement. So we'll walk through the sections. This is on page one, line eight, section one. So 23 BSA section 115 is the section on non driver identification cards. The changes in this section are or I guess I should say, there are some motor vehicle clarification consistency changes before the section we'll get to. If you have questions about those, I'll put it to Damian. But the kind of corrections related language that page nine, five forty nine was focused on starts on page three. So this is the top of page three. Subsection M is the section in current law that says that someone who is sentenced to serve a period of imprisonment of six months or more is eligible for a non driver identification card. So there are some consistency changes made to the language here, but there are not substantive changes. But as you'll see if you look at this is page three, lines eight through 16. This is the current process that DOC as part of reentry planning asks the individual if they want one of these credentials. And if they're eligible, DOC tells them about differences. Line 13, this is subdivision three. If the individual, in this case, wants a non driver identification card, then DOC coordinates with DMV to provide the card for that person at the time they are released. So this process for individuals who are sentenced is replicated in the bill for the other two kinds of credentials. And I'll point out those sections when we get there. On page three, line 17, this is a start of a new section. So subsection m is current law. Already available non driver ID cards are already available for sentenced folks. Subsection n adds that for individuals who are detained for six months or more in a correctional facility, they're eligible for a non driver identification card. And that DOC, as soon as reasonably practical is essentially, as soon as that six months has elapsed of detention, DOC will start gathering the documents. But DOC shall obtain the documentation required for a non real ID or real ID non driver identification card. And DOC shall provide the individual with that documentation at the time of release. On page four, lines three through five, this is just a clarification that this requirement exists in current law, but any application includes the post release mailing address and proof that the individual is a resident of Vermont following release. So for individuals who are coming out of DOC, their documentation of their post release mailing address or their residency might look a little different. It's something that DOC might help with, but it is a general requirement for any of these credentials. Page four, lines six through nine, this states that once the individual is released from the correctional facility, goes to DMV, Otherwise, properly submits their application and all

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: the required

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: documents that DMV will provide them with a non driver ID card for a fee of $0. Finally, this is page four lines 10 through 13. DOC shop working with DMV about the process for getting the documentation and making sure that DMV provides the card to the individual at no cost. So you've seen basically the two kinds of language. There's the language for sentence folks. There's a language for detained folks. And that is now replicated in two other parts of title 23 for licenses and for learner's permits. This is page five, section two. Section two is focused on replacement licenses for individuals who are sentenced for six months or more. So subsection c just states that someone who is sentenced to serve a period of imprisonment of six months or more is entitled if they're otherwise eligible to a replacement license. And these caveats are general DMV caveats for replacing a license that they have to either have a Vermont license that is unexpired or it can't have expired more than three years prior. Division b, as long as they have all the proper documentation, DMV will provide them with a replacement operator's license for no cost via $0. As you saw before, each of these sections just respecifies. There's a lot of repetition across the bill, but that is a function of title 23 and the fact that it has not to win title 23, Damian, but it is a function of title 23 in the way it organizes talking about the different credentials. So again, this is essentially a repeat of the process that is already in current law for sentenced individuals, but it is now talking about an operator's license, and it's in that operator's license section. So DOC is part of reentry planning, asks people if they want something. And if they want it, DOC coordinates with DMV to provide them with a card at the time of release. Feel free to stop me with my sheets at any point to myself. We can move through. On page six, this is line six, section three. This is making changes, statutory section as before, because this is also replacement licenses. But this section covers replacement licenses for detained individuals. So again, the same requirements for how to obtain a replacement license and who is entitled. If they're eligible, DOC obtains the documentation required. So again, that's our process for detained individuals. DOC is getting the documents as best they can and providing the documents to the individual when they're released. We're on page seven now, and it's continuing. This is the same process that we saw for detained individuals for non driver ID cards that as long as someone applies and submits all the right required documentation, DMV will give them a replacement operator's license at no cost. We have the same coordination requirement. So you'll see a path. Moving on to sections-

[John Benson]: Just a thought that, what if the person's license has been revoked because of infractions, either DWIs, or can they basically get a new license through this? Or

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: So my understanding, and then Damian's gonna actually chime in, is the sections what you see here let me scroll up a little bit. What you see here is just at the end of a replacement license section, and there are other sections about licenses that cover

[John Benson]: Cover that.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Cover revocation. So my understanding is that this would play against the background of all those existing things, which means that you could not shortcut and get her replacement license if it's been revoked. But Damian, those titles 23 better.

[Damian Leonard]: Yeah. So if your license has been suspended or revoked, that trumps your ability to you can't get around it by saying, well, who's gonna get a replacement license? So the commissioner has the ability, even if a license is currently issued, to suspend the credential or revoke the credential at that point. And at that point, you're not eligible to get a new credential until that suspension or revocation.

[John Benson]: Could get an ID card.

[Damian Leonard]: You could get an un driver ID during that time. And then there are other options in certain circumstances. So for example, if your suspension relates to a DUI, you can get a special credential for driving that requires you to use an ignition interlock system. And so when you get, if you get pulled over with that, one of the things they can check is they'll see it's an ignition interlock driver's license and they can check to make sure you're operating a vehicle that has the proper system because you're not allowed to operate a vehicle without that system. And so there Yeah. But that is all separate and apart from this, and this won't affect the operation of any of that.

[John Benson]: Thank you. Yep. Okay.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: Great. The way it's drafted is it is just adding eligibility. It's not changing the kind of underlying requirements or limitations on issuing the credentials. I think we are up to section four. So this is page seven, line 16. And section four is now replacement learners permits for sentenced individuals. So this section is structured a little differently. So earlier in the section, it states that a replacement learner's permit issued pursuant to the subsections for sentenced individuals and detained individuals shall be issued for a fee of $0. This is one note to cancel here. And then moving forward on page eight, subsection g, this is adding what you've seen before, that for an individual sentenced to period of imprisonment of six months or more, If they had an unexpired learner's permit or their learner's permit expired less than three years ago, that means DMV can issue a replacement one and they're eligible. Again, we repeat the mailing address and residency proof requirements. The process is the same as for sentenced individuals for the other kinds of credentials. There's subdivision three. As part of your entry planning, DOC asks if they want it. DOC and DMV work to provide the card at kind of release. This is page nine, section five. So section five, learner's permits for detained individuals, folks who are detained for six months or more. And it's the same process as the other credentials for detained individuals. So DOC obtains the documentation and then the individual can go to DMV after release and be provided with a replacement learner's permit for a $0 fee. So those are the kind of substantive sections. It's a lot of words to do, a pretty straightforward thing, but there you have it. There are two other pieces I wanted to flag. Section six. So one of the requests from House Corrections was that all of this is entitled 23, motor vehicles. And if you are used to looking at title 28, aberrations, you have no idea that this exists, even though it is very much DOC related program or possibility. So section six adds to title 28. This is a section on the commissioner of corrections and the commissioner's powers and responsibilities. So there's a big long list of currently 24 responsibilities that the DOC commissioner has, and these are really describing things that DOC does. And section six would add subdivision 25 that the commissioner also has the responsibility to coordinate with DMV to provide eligible individuals with non driver identification cards and documentation pursuant to 23 PSA section one fifteen m and n. So that's those are the two subdivisions that were just added. Replacement operators, licenses, and documentation. And again, cross referencing these provisions in title 23 that cover this program and replacement learner's permits and documentation. Again, cross referencing. So now there is a little placeholder or a little clue in title 28 that there is this DOC related program and language in title 23, and it says where to go look for it. So since DMV someone said, why isn't this happening in title 28? DMV is the one issuing the credentials. So there is good reason to put it in title 23, but this would at least add something in titles 28 to kind of point someone looking at the corrections title to where to find this elsewhere in statute.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: Great idea. Representative Patrick.

[Wendy Harrison]: Alright.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: I will. Fully credit. Then skipping to the end now, this is the one other piece I wanted

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: to

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: mention. The reason that the bill has separate sections for detained and sentenced individuals across the board is that the bill provides for different effective dates for those different sections. So for sentenced individuals and everything else in the bill, The effective date is 07/01/2026. For detained individuals, the sections that provide for providing detained individuals with documentation and then the free card. So that's section one, section three, and section five. Those will take effect on 01/01/2027. And this came from testimony from DMV that they need some time to set up their system to do this a little bit differently, and that this would give them time to do that. So that for sentence individuals, they're already doing it, they know that process, they're set up to do it, they don't need more time.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: But

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: for detained individuals, it's a new process and some new, I think, parts of their electronic system that they just need to configure, they request it today later.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay, that's very helpful. Questions?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: I think this is great.

[Wendy Harrison]: This is a good thing to do and appreciate the work that you all have had. Damian, is there anything you want us to know about this?

[Damian Leonard]: I think Hillary has covered pretty much everything. The only other thing that I had a note down about, there was a question about individuals who were in for less than six months. And I just wanted to know, the law doesn't address individuals who have been in for under six months, there is a fourteen day grace period if your license were to expire during that six month period. So if you're within that grace period, you can still renew your license like you would normally. Beyond that, I'd have to defer to the interview to ask what happens to an individual whose licenses expire by, say, a month, third, three months like that.

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: But this would capture I think a lot of people.

[Wendy Harrison]: Definitely. Yeah, and I was hopeful or I suggested in transportation that perhaps we could get licenses for the detainees, but that's not happening right now, at least. Just the process is too cumbersome, But at least they will have the documentation. So, that's That's hard, honestly, to get the documentation. That's a big deal. All

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: right,

[Wendy Harrison]: so if you all are ready to vote on this, I am asking if this committee supports this language that will be, oh no, actually, you weren't here when I talked earlier. We're not taking possession of

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: the Right. So

[Wendy Harrison]: is that your question?

[John Benson]: No, I was saying

[Wendy Harrison]: Oh, you're already saying yes. Okay, great.

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: What's Yeah. The delay?

[Wendy Harrison]: Alright. So, yeah, everyone who's in favor of this, please raise your hand. I'll Big problem. Rob is not here. It's 40. 400. And we don't need to do a paper for this?

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: And 4, yes, it's just a straw full.

[Wendy Harrison]: It is a straw 401.

[Damian Leonard]: Yeah, since you don't have possession of the bill, it's just, you know, formal.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: Yeah, okay.

[John Benson]: Yep.

[Wendy Harrison]: Good. Well, thank you very much and we'll see you, Hillary, soon, hopefully. I know.

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: Are you replacing Damian? Or

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: No. Oh, okay. I didn't. I could not begin

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: to contemplate what it would I'm mean to replace the new third attorney on the judiciary team. So And Bennington. You're doing Bennington. Right. Bennington. Yeah. So big big part of that is correct. Yeah.

[Wendy Harrison]: So congratulations, and thank you for taking the job.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: I think it's

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: the best job.

[Unidentified Committee Member (likely Joseph "Joe" Major or John Benson)]: Good. Wow. We're glad to have her. So

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: Alright. Well, thank you.

[Hillary Chatter Ames]: I'll ask you about a year. Damn

[Sen. Russ Ingalls]: it. Thank you. Thank you all. You're welcome.

[Wendy Harrison]: Okay. Our next item is at 2PM, so let us go offline and adjourn about fifty.