Meetings
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[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, Thank you. Welcome. This is Senate Institutions Committee, and it is Tuesday, 02/10/2026. And we are taking testimony from the Department of Corrections and it's regarding H790, which is an accolade to fiscal year 2020
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: budget adjustments. And even though our capital bill is also called a budget adjustment, This is a different budget adjustment. So, I just want to
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: be very clear about what we're discussing because it hasn't been in this committee in the last while. So, we have with us John Bure, Interim Commissioner. Thank you for being here. Thank you. And if you want to comment.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: If I may also, I'd like to be joined by your permission, our Finance Director.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: And we'll introduce ourselves once you're all
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: set there. Actually, you can have this. Don't swab. You're most of that. Sure. K.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Here.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Great.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: So I'm Wendy Harrison. I represent the Windham District.
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: And I'm Robert Plunkett, the Bennington District. Joe Major, Windsor District. Senator Russ Ingalls, Essex District for the City Folks. John Benson, the Orange District.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Great. Thank you. And I think you have presentations. Do you want them to be Yes. Hi. Okay.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: He's just great. Okay. Everything else connected?
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: K. Great. So this is the summary. Okay, great. You want to start it now, please? Okay. Okay, so this is our FY twenty six budget adjustment summary. And the total budget increase is 8,847,278, which is 3.83% from the SFY twenty six as passed of 02/8877. And the total net general fund increase is $6.02 $9.02 $2.78, which is 2.84% from as of y twenty six. Going through the the ups and downs, correctional services has an increase of 5,900,000.0 for GF. 55,000 for special fund, which is pilot increase request, and 2,500,000.0 GCF, global commitment, with a decrease of general fund by 2,500,000.0. That is for the random motion time study that we're now doing with probation and parole.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Do you mind getting questions as you go along? Because I think that would be helpful. There's
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: a lot
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: of new words. If you can, I think you were talking about the section B338? Is that what you're
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: referencing Yes.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, so I just want to point to that. So we have a spreadsheet and there's different funds on the spreadsheet. So something I would like to know more about is the global commitment, which
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I believe is the last one of the columns. I mean, the total. Yes.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: It seems like you have great numbers. So, if you could explain that,
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: that would be helpful. And then you could cut it at any time. My understanding, I started in June, but my understanding is that this is a new program for corrections, and that is because we are now doing this random moment time study, which is required when you want to access lower commitment Medicaid money. Okay. And before, the way that we were doing it was not necessarily capturing all the activities that were allowed, the allowable activities, to obtain enough funds, and now we are actually following the Random One More Time Study for probation and parole officers who are, when they're dealing with something, they're taking someone and it has to do with medical. So, that's why it qualifies. So, they have to track their time very closely and carefully and when we report that, we've already started to report that this fiscal year. So, it takes some pressure out the general fund and puts it into the global commitment.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: So, it looks like it might not even be a revenue.
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: It's a
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: wash. It's a It's a wash. Okay, you're just getting it from another source, which is Correct, actually
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: because the general fund, the Medicaid aspect of it has to go into the general committee. Okay,
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: so that's great that either you or someone in finance realized that. Kristen most likely. It all led to Deputy
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Commissioner, now Deputy Commissioner, well she was at the time as well, but Deputy Commissioner Caliber was in the financial director position for many years and also occupied that spot even as a Deputy Commissioner for some time. Wow. Marlene was able to come on board. But she really does own, I think, the kudos for some of these committees.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Right, so that's very helpful.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yes. To have that money.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Okay, great. Okay,
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: did you want me to go over anything else
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: that Well, we well pads and the sheriff because we talked about in the summer committee, talked a lot about transport and what a challenge So, that I'm interested in the funding, also understanding if things are getting better.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Sure. These are different kinds of transports. So this is a transport for extradition when somebody is apprehended out of state or comes into custody of another law enforcement agency or department of corrections to that state, but it should be in ours. And we send somebody out to get that person because that person's absconded from our supervision. Okay. So it's not the same as the transport issues that I think have been front of mind for a lot of people owing to issues around how we get people to and from corrections and courts. Right, okay,
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: so follow-up question. So do we have more of these extraditions?
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Has there been a greater number? Yes.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: You have those, the data on that?
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: And this is not high. Guess for
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: the Windsor Sheriff, I don't have increase of 83,000 that she was discussing.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: This has nothing to do with federal detainees.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Right, just wanted to double check that.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Correct, no, this is, and it's not, while the Windsor Sheriff is the sheriff that we use most often for this, they are not the only office that we use for this.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Okay, okay.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: All right, so then if you could just speak to the other transports, if you're able to, and if you can't, because I know that wasn't what you were planning, because it's not this, but I thought
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: it's Other transports would go up to what way.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Just the transports to the courts, primarily.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: So, transport to and from court is a sheriff's responsibility. We know that there has been a certain amount of pressure on that. A component of the Burlington 14 plan that was rolled out by the governor included a pretty collaborative all hands on deck effort, not only by the sheriffs, but also through Vermont Emergency Management, and through the Vermont State well, the Department of Public Safety, primarily the state police, but also aspects of DMV and their law enforcement entities, and corrections to say, if we run into a problem with regard to the volume of transports from the so called accountability court, three b courtroom, to correctional facilities, can we handle that? The fact is we never actually did get to the point of needing resources other than those of the sheriff. The Vermont Emergency Management Team was there because initially the government's approach to what was going on in Burlington was to pursue it as if it were a natural disaster or emergency, and hence VEM's involvement. But again, we never really got to that. Certainly, the success, what I personally believe, to be honest, to be clear, I'm speaking personally, what I personally believe to be the success of the three b courtroom in Burlington, if that is to be rolled out in other locations, we may find ourselves with other kinds of transport problems that didn't ultimately raise their head in Burlington, but that's something that we're working on. And that's very much separate from this budget request.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Right, right. So when you come back and we talk about the other budget and just general operations, let's discuss or let's hear from you about the other, the remaining transports? I know that that is an issue in our counties.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah, transport is not something that DOC does. DOC is not responsible for transport to and from court, that's a function of generally the sheriffs or the court. Exceptions are with regard have it on federal detainees and not immigration federal detainees, but federal detainees. And the other piece, of course, is that rather than running transportation, what DOC has ultimately assumed responsibility for over the past several years, owing to changes that occurred rapidly during the pandemic, is essentially running 14 courts in each of our six facilities. Exactly. We are running those courtrooms in the sense of having remote court. Rarely do sheriffs come in order to stand, essentially watch over that de facto courtroom. Normally that is the, ultimately the role of somebody in the facility who therefore is not doing what that person normally should be doing. Right. Whether it is case management or floor work or what have you. And so, while we certainly are attuned to the challenges of transportation and want to be participatory and collaborative and helpful with that, particularly if what was experienced in Burlington in the 3B Courtroom is expanded to other areas in the state. We are under a lot of pressure of our own with regard to staffing, taking on the responsibility that used to be a sheriff's responsibility or in a physical courtroom, but instead is happening in our facilities and is there, so.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Exactly, and that's my concern actually. Mean, I may have, we're talking about the same thing because the transports didn't happen during COVID, people got used to that system and that system has issues. So let's talk about that when you come back.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Absolutely, we'd be happy to do that. Good.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: All right,
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: okay. You want us to talk about WellPath? Yeah,
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: but did you say, did you talk about WellPath yet?
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I was gonna give you a chance to discuss it. So, had the sheriff's transports, we went on, which is the increase of 83,000 for expeditions. And then we have the WellPath staffing contract amendment and this is for is for medical services for the incarcerated population only in state. And when the contract was originally set up, it was started with December and then it since the population has increased, so there had to be an amendment to increase that population and then the cost that was also goes along with that. In addition to which, 1.2 of this 4.5 increase is for the substance abuse program in Burlington Recovery Project.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, the 1.2.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: So, there's 4.55 and out of that, there's the AEP is 3.349, the average daily population cost increase, which is ADP, it's 3.3. And then the Burlington Response Recovery Project program budget increase is 1.2 and that's to stand up seven employees.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Not for us, but under well passengers. You know, we've seen double digit increases percentage wise in our number of both detainees and sentenced persons in our custody over just the past year. And so that double digit percentage rise has necessitated that our average daily population has risen from what we initially contracted with WellPath. This essentially hovers that expansion. We are asking more of them, we naturally need to compensate them more accordingly. The other piece of it, however, that $1,200,000 comes from our desire as a component of initially the 14 plan in Burlington, but ultimately our goal for the entire state of increasing the level of treatment that we provide with regard to persons suffering from substance abuse disorder. The ways in which the DOC currently provides what was called MAT, or what is now more usually called MOUD, are, I believe, laudatory. I think it's impressive that we've done what we've done. We've had incredible success with that. Just over half of the people in our custody are receiving MOUD, but there's more to be done if we want to approach what the community level of care is with regard to not merely ameliorating symptoms by virtue mostly of Suboxone or buprenorphine, but also getting at the reasons that people suffer from this disease and the ways in which you can treat that disease therapeutically and not merely medicinally. That requires additional personnel, it requires an expansion of the contract, that's what that money is for. It was initially applicable really only to our facilities at Chitin Regional Correctional Facility for Women and Swanton at the Northwest State Correctional Facility for men because those were the places that we're going to be taking folks from the Burlington three d court. We've we've I think our the number from that court has been around 20. It actually went into our facilities,
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: so it has not been what I
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: think some people fear, that, you know, of this 100 plus people that had five or more dockets, that that eighty percent of them, seventy percent of them might end up actually in jail. That has not been the case. They are under supervision, majority of them, so it has not it has not been a negligible load on the Department of Corrections. Our Probation and Parole offices absorb a lot of these folks. But it has not resulted in a tremendous increase in headcount in the facilities, which is a good thing, right? We don't want prison to be the first and only answer by any means. But for those for whom it was, we wanted to ensure that if substance abuse was a component of their having five dockets, which we believed to be the case, and in fact proved to be so, we wanted to ensure that we were offering additional kinds of treatment beyond what we currently, and this is a means of rolling that out.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Okay, well that's good to know.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: So there's the two, there's three separate numbers about that, right? So the increased average daily population. So, that's 25 people. 25 people go no. That's okay. Is is how does that connect to the 4,500,000? The 4,500,000. So, we did increase the top. Well, when we did the amendment,
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: we increased the top to 15 to 50 because we were gonna do it to fifteen twenty five as the time. But the actual amendment took us from December population. Was how the original contract was written and there hadn't been anything put in for if the population should increase, you know, there would be this much added, or percentage wise, and none of that happened. So we had to do a contract amendment because of the fact that the population had increased so much.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: So, the amendment was from 1,200.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Twelve fifty to a top of fifteen fifty. Okay. And they, but it's actually, the calculation is done on 1,500. It's an average between fifteen twenty five and fifteen fifty.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, and that's the 4,500,000?
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: That's 3.3 of that 5,000,000.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, so that's what I was trying to figure out.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yes, it is 3.3. The 1.2 is the, substance abuse the
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Response Recovery Project.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, and that's for folks who are in the facilities now?
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Affirmative. Okay, alright,
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: we're getting there. So, anyone else have questions?
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Just one question. I'm just curious, is there a way that you're tracking the success of the treatment? The additional treatment? Yeah.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Not yet. This is in the very earliest stages. It's pretty incoate right now, pretty nascent, and so no, we do not yet have a way of doing that. But that's a terrific question for, and frankly, I, maybe speaking out of turn, it would not surprise me if the health team has in fact been contemplating how to do this, but we have not yet had enough throughput to have any data in that respect.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay. So then there's a well path transfer.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yes. And this is carry forward from from '25. We had a payment that was that needed to be made, but we had to shut down early due to. And so the monies were carried forward and AHS have them and it also had to listen to funds from the the the the that were being held. So it's net neutral. This is just because they require this to be mechanically on our twenty sixth EAA in order to receive it into our budget, but it is not additional. It's not new money. It's existing money.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: The 3,100,000.0.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. Any questions on that? Okay. And the next one is the revenue offset, the GC increased, the global commitment increased to offset the general fund, which we talked about. That's what the random moment time statistic that we're tracking.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Right, and so will that continue next year? That's our plan.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: We're continue that, yes. Great. Thank you. Alright, operating services, the water sewer bill for SFCF. There had been an agreement that has now expired that we did not have to pay it, but it did expire, so now we have to pay the cost. So that's why there's an increase of 100,000.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Just a quick question. So is that
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: your total bill for the year? That is my understanding, yes. That's the increase.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Is that the total?
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: That's the what it means that we work I I can double check that. My understanding is that's the total amount for the year. It's not an increase
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: of that Right.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: So, it I'm sorry, that was That's okay. I'm not being very clear. So, it's not an increase. It's not like we're going from that we're just gonna pay over 100,000 or whatever. It is an increase to that line item from zero to a 100,000 for this particular item.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: And that's an agreement with the Yeah. And are you going to have another agreement or is that, is this the way it's going to be?
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I believe this is the way it's going to be. I don't know if that, we can ask if we can
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I believe those agreements date back to the creation, to the, when the facility was constructed in the very early 2000, about twenty five years ago, and these have basically sunsetted? It has also to do with some complicated agreements around the property that surrounds the facility and the ways in which Springfield Town can use that property. So I don't know the answer to that right now. My guess is that this is going to be an annual cost going forward. I'm not I cannot remember off the top of my head whether of the f y twenty seven budget.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: It is. It is. So see the f y twenty budget.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay. Because in in of our areas, the prisons pay more than their their the regular bill. The town is kind of a subsidy. So this is interesting. Okay.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: The next item is an increase to an existing pilot fund, which is under special fund. So, currently receive pilot fund money for two facilities, Southern and Newport. And we've been paying it's about a we've been paying that fund out of that fund for both facilities, but there's been additional money we've had to charge the general fund that has never been budgeted, which we pay it, of course, but it's not been a budgeted component. So we're now asking to increase the pilot funds so that we don't have to get to the general fund for that fifty five months of which is the difference. So it's going to increase fifty five thousand to 207,000.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, so that will be in the operating area, you have that noted. Yes. Okay, that's the pavement in lieu
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: of taxes, right, to the pound of
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Springfield? The two. That's Newport News. It's Newport News. Oh, Newport News Springfield, okay.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yes. Okay. The next item under operating services is staff hotel costs, and they are hotel costs for short turnarounds for staff transporting. This has been something we've been doing, but it has not been budgeted again, and so this is an increase of 225,000 Shet LaFarge. Much better to budget it if you expect to need it.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: And we do expect to continue to need it. We've been able to defray that cost significantly by moving a lot of our transport duties and hospital duties, because transport includes from a facility to a hospital, to a central operations division, or COD, so that we no longer pluck people from a facility when we know our facilities are understaffed, in order to sit with a single individual at a hospital, for example, instead they come from this central division. But those central division folks are people who live in various parts of the state, and are oftentimes asked to go long distances, whether it's to, you know, whether if there's a hospital. If Springfield can handle a person from Springfield, great. But sometimes that's not the case, and Springfield Hospital has to say, no, we cannot address the needs of this incarcerated individual from Springfield facility, so instead we take them to Dartmouth or even Albany at times, as far away as that. So this is these are bills that are necessary for that kind of work, as well as fly ins. At times we use that Central Operations Division as well for understaffing. We had a pronounced understaffing issue at Northern for a while, and so members of the COD were available to us to sort of patch shifts, but if they're going to do that for, if they're going to do a twelve hour shift or a sixteen hour shift, and then we expect it to do another sixteen hour shift with less than eight hours in between, we offer them a hotel. Good.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Thank you. The next item is heat mitigation, which is DSD policy three twenty two. This includes equipment, such as fans, clothing, breathable warm weather, short sleeve shirts, water, and other cold refreshments related to policy three twenty two and the motion recommendations. And that's an increase of $60,000.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, thank you.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: So this is for the staff, I presume? Yes.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: There's, I mean We don't have as
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: many options for the population.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: And that is troubling to us.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: And we've talked about that this So, many years, so there is money there to put, we're saying air conditioning. Aren't air conditioning, these are box fans.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah. These are, you know, additional, the staff at Northwest purchased a Slurpee machine, for lack of a better term, a little, know, mixer that makes ice drinks, and they can come and grab an ice drink. Those are not things that we can make available to the population.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: No, I understand. Right. But just noting Yes. That we are concerned and we haven't put money in previous capital bills.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Great people for that because we're concerned about it too. Yeah. And as summers grow, you know, was, we a couple runs of really hot weather in December '25. Exactly.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: The next item is AES, service level agreement transfer from the AES Central August, an increase of 215,000. This is net neutral, it's also not new money. Again, it's AHS providing us with this fee spot, so it's but it has to be in the BAA now for us to receive it. And the next item is B three three nine. This is correctional out of state beds and this is an increase of 389,955 to the GF. This is for the additional out of state beds utilized due to the increased population that was added to down there, about 30, that was
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: About 20, we sent 25 additional, and we currently have 150 out of state. The reason that the cap that we articulated with WellPath is fifteen fifty at its height, even though our current population is sixteen fifty, is because we have those 150 individuals out of state. You know, at one point there were as many as 400 people out of state. We've certainly reduced those numbers overall, but this past autumn I did direct that we send an additional 25 down. We had been hovering in the 120, 125 zone for the past few years. We're now at 150, and that really did have to do with the extraordinary increase we saw in our populations over the summer.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Any questions?
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: I've heard mixed things about other states. Sometimes, we are sending them to We are sending them to a single
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: facility in Tallahatchie, Mississippi.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Okay.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: It is run by a company called CoreCivic.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, and so what we've been told previously is that we chose that entity because it matches with our values and our systems and I'd like to know more about that. Sure. We can talk about that when you come back.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: I would be happy to
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: That's talk about obviously really important. Other things I want to talk about when you come back are opportunities for instruction and for the inmates to get training and that's something I hear a lot. We were there yesterday actually at Southern State and that's the main comment that I get from folks. And they're not being whiny. They just want something to do and they want to improve their situation and be able to go out and have a job and not come back. Yeah. So that's what we want too. So I know this committee is ready to help in any way that we can.
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: We want that too. The harshest punishment that's currently offered in these facilities is boredom. And we're aware of that. It's a bored incarcerated individual. It does not make for a, it's not a happy individual. That's not a, we're not doing our mandate, which is to offer efforts at at rehabilitation and and improving this person's likelihood of success once he or she is released from our custody. And almost every single one of the persons in our custody will eventually be released from our custody. We owe it to them and to ourselves and to our communities to make certain that they are afforded as many opportunities for success as possible. Training is such an opportunity. The loss of our prison industries, the loss of our correctional industries has been terrible. But we, the financials simply are not there. If the state were willing, for example, to spend more on office furniture than less, then we could probably go back to providing the majority of office furniture for the state, as we once did many years ago. But I don't see that in the cards, when we're all very concerned about other kinds of budgetary factors. And I'm not advocating for anything other than what we've presented as the Governor's budget by any means. But the, that's why those industries have abated and really withered, is the fact that they are simply not economically
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: feasible. Yeah, it would be great to have a long term analysis of that because if you add in employees for remote companies, there's a lot of need for that. So there would be an economic development gain. Yes. But we don't measure that because it's harder to measure. We don't. But it's real. Yes. So, right, well more to talk about. Okay?
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: You all. And there you go.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: And actually did you talk to me at all about about a contract?
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: About a contract for the
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Yeah, because that would also be
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: better for the families. You're
[John Bure (Interim Commissioner, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: correct. No, I have not yet reached out to them, and I am going to do that when I am out of this committee. Great.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Thank you.
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Just have one question, just in terms of the spreadsheet. First time I'm seeing the DAA spreadsheet, I just wanna make sure I'm clear. The the house did not make any changes from the government's recommendation.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: No. Not that no. I mean, they're not provided that that arbitrary changes. They're using the same line.
[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: That's what it looks like. I just wanted to confirm my my reading of the spreadsheet.
[Marlene (Finance Director, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Thank you. We were told they were approved as presented. Great. Good question. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll see you soon. Yes.
[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay. Anything else?