Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Whatever, you and Greg are the only ones on the agenda, so whichever way you like. And he's always welcome. Neither Joe are always welcome. So let me just for the record, this is still 02/05/2026. We're in Senate institutions. We're going over the capital budget and now we will be discussing section 14 judiciary and we have Terry Porzon and Greg Moseley. Moseley. Moseley, sorry, judiciary and we'll have other votes in a couple of minutes and you know us all. So, just if you could present it by yourself again.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Sure. I'm Senator Porcelain, State Court Administrator and Greg Mosley is our Chief of Finance and Administration for Judiciary. Perfect. So,

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: thank you.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: And it's our understanding that you would like us to speak to the adjustment request for the capital bill versus the whole, or did you want Oh, I was,

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: I guess we haven't talked to you generally,

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: have we? You prepared to? Yeah, we can, whenever you would like.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Why don't you give us a high level of the entire one because we haven't necessarily looked at it yet, let's focus on the proposed amendment.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Okay, proposed amendment being the Essex County? Correct. That's correct. Because that's what we, and we did get a summary.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: I guess it's not an amendment, is it? It's just.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: An adjustment?

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: Yeah, DAA adjustment.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Oh, right, right, right. And forgive me if I remember repeating anything, but we were here just indicating the, addressing the suggestion that representative Benson had vis a vis a letter of intent. So we had addressed that last week and we

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: did give an overview, but we're happy to get a Right, okay, so let's step back. That So letter of intent is in progress.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Yes, we've submitted a draft.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, so it has happened. And so this meeting was intended to be the BAA, So let's stick with that because that's how it was advertised.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Okay, that sounds And the adjustment to the judiciary's capital requests have to do with an unexpected expense that arose vis a vis the Essex County project. I don't know how many different presentations you've had about how many different buildings. We had decided in general what the purpose of the project was, and that was to, in essence, modernize the Essex County Courthouse. I do have copies of the materials that have been provided that give all of the different renovations, if you would like. That was approved last year. Right. And work was slated to begin in the fall. And in the course of doing the final design work for that, it was discovered that the water system in Guildhall, which would have been connected to the sprinkler system, there is no sprinkler system now that would be required for this new renovation expansion, we learned that the water system wasn't adequate to support the sprinkler system. Ultimately it was decided that a water tank with a pump would be the best alternative. It didn't appear after we met with the Gilpin's lab work that anything would be done at all in the near future, or possibly far future, in terms of having any change in the pressure results that we were told would not support the sprinkler system. So, this alternate approach which is to basically install an underground water tank and a pump house in the event that the sprinkler system is activated and the water source is needed, that that would be a way to satisfy basically the requirements, the regulations. Right. And

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: it's fire.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Yes. So the cost of that is $500,000 That's estimated. I guess if they're still hopeful that it might be somewhat less but they wanted to get a figure that should cover all costs associated with this modification to the original design.

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: I want to point out that we do have a history of spending less up there. That's one of the reasons why we were able to get so far along in the process of doing this project because we did have some monies that we were, I think $750,000 that we were able to expend towards this project. I'm working with Senator Kitchell on that. I would not be surprised if it is what it is, but we do have a history of keeping it on budget or less in Essex.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: I know that every effort was made in terms of the design to do it at economical rates. If you remember, one of the aspects of it is, right now jurors, when there's a jury pool for a jury draw, have to walk, they would meet at the town hall because there isn't a large enough space at the courthouse, so they walk 100 yards or so. And this would allow a part of this project, renovations were made to the meet building that's next door, so that jurors would be able to meet there and then easily walk over or go to the courthouse after the jury draw in conjunction with it. That's just kind of an example of how things were done in a way to accommodate the resources that were there. But that would be one distinct advantage. The other mostly had to do with security. Just in terms of, right now there's no very little separation between the public and the non public part of the White House. Attorney's Whomest rooms are conference rooms. And those act as a holding cell, if you will. It's a conference room versus a holding cell. This would incorporate an employment cell, a sally court, separate attorney client meeting room for detainees that doesn't exist now. And also a separate conference room so that lawyers now are meeting with clients in a jury room because there's no other conference room. So, this design is intended to kind of address all of those current shortcomings.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Right, and we've heard about the design and we've discussed it multiple times and it seems like a very reasonable design and the additional that's required for the fire Fire code's pretty important. So, I appreciate learning that you went to the town to see if the pressure was going to be increased. In my town we actually need to step down the pressure in the homes because the pressure is so big. That is something that can happen, but this seems reasonable. I just wanted, for the record, just mention that we did get an email from Ed Clark, vice chair of the Gilt and Roll Planning Board, expressing his concern about the additional $500,000 and essentially saying that he doesn't think that it's necessary, that this work is necessary.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: And we'd be happy to respond to that, Mr. Clark, to express his objections to the proposal. I think in the beginning you would probably know, that it was more in terms of the nature of it. I wasn't I had heard the name in conjunction with objections to it. And I guess just to respond, he had one, I think being mentioned, detainees being in a cruiser. And Greg did gather that information, that information was provided to him from Assistant Judge Ken Stransky, who, and I apologize, we were happy to reach out to him, where he obtained that information, we're not sure if it came from that source for that particular point.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: And actually, I just heard from our office that there's an incident report. So it does happen, but it doesn't happen very often. We use that conference room primarily. There was one case, and we have an incident report on it, where the detainee was being very loud and disruptive, and so they, the only other place to put them is a new cruiser. So it was reported that it happened, and think

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: that

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: I think it just furthers the cause as far as to what we need to do with what we do. And I think that we've done very well up there. I think there's only been a couple people who have protested the modernization of this courthouse. I again, I certainly have a vested interest in it, but I think one of the most powerful things that came to me was that this is to protect the accused of this expansion, to do more to protect the accused of anything. And one of the most powerful parts for me was is when a lot of the judges had folks got taken off, lots of times they bring in the accused and his attorneys, and they're in the next room from where I'm at, and it's a thin door, a thin wall, I'm hearing every bit of the conversation. And so, you know, and I shouldn't be doing that. So I think that of all things that this protects the public, anybody that goes and has to do business in that blood house gives them a fair shake in the justice system. That's most, that's all I can hear about.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: I guess the other point that was made in Mr. Clark's message was claims as to how much work had been done at the courthouse over the years are not done. I apologize we don't have information on that. He mentioned a broken painting. But we will, I guess, point to the, again, security aspects of the renovations too. And also, for example, the meeting house now has public bathrooms. It didn't have restrooms before. So, just general minimal amenities that you would want to have associated with the courthouse. But primarily security feature and for both the judges, court staff, members of public court users, litigants, jurors, etcetera.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Right, yeah, makes sense. And that's basic amenities that the public needs and the folks who are using the court.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: And I think was worth noting that the trend with courthouses and some of the renovation projects, and we'll talk about the other ones that are state owned. Our concerns primarily around Crystal Courthouses is we need some extra architecture in order to do that safely. Can even sell it for the building cells, the pathway in and out of a courtroom. And our courthouses are our highest priority, so the ones that don't have that infrastructure. So Essex is one, but you'll hear about all of these and the Washington County Criminal Courthouse as well. Okay.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, and I think we're talking about how small the courthouse is, but it's still a courthouse for people who need a courthouse, and the nearest one is two hours?

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: See. Do the house.

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: St. John's is probably about fifty minutes.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Oh, fifty minutes.

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Think somebody told us that it was two hours for them to get to a courthouse.

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: Yeah. Could very well be as well.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Within the county. Yeah.

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: That that could be very well. Yes. Yeah.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: In rural areas, a small building can be exactly what you need. Well, it just has to have the right

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: Man, I I think too many chairs. I can yeah. I think it's right sized for where it is. If you want to talk about the best place in the whole wide world to get justice served to you, you're not going to find a more pleasant place to be there. It just looks like it belongs in a movie, Yeah. And and the work that these folks are doing to to make it the next forty years as being done on unbelievable budget that will work, and pretty pretty proud of that.

[Teri Corsones (State Court Administrator)]: Well, the designer worked with historic preservation in order to make sure that it didn't change the aesthetics of the historic buildings. It's a very low profile connector in the back of the building. Okay, I see it.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: It's very charming.

[Greg Moseley (Chief of Finance and Administration, Judiciary)]: Yeah.

[Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Yeah. Great. I think we're good on that. I'm hearing from the committee. So, what I would like to do is take a quick adjournment and just double check on whether or not we need to talk to you about the other item. Okay, while you're here, I just want to take a quick adjournment. Okay?