Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, we are live. Good afternoon. Today is the 01/28/2026 and we are in Senate institutions. I'm sorry.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: That's a good preview. That's fine.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: Alright. I'm sorry.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: That that didn't seem like too small of a day. Today is 01/30/2026. And this is Senate institutions. And we have one item that we're going to go through today, which is a walkthrough of one section of the motor vehicle bill, the DMV bill, and it is a overlap of transportation and corrections dealing with how inmates receive their driver's license and can get their driver's license before they leave. And so I've said on transportation, as you know, and obviously this committee needs to look at the proposed language and see if we have any suggestions or modifications. And we have Damian Leonard here from the legislature council to take us through this bill or to this section of the bill.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah. So as for the record, I'm Damian Leonard from the office of legislative council. I'm actually gonna touch on three sections, sections one through three.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: But one of them, it's just a very brief mention, and this links you to h five four nine, which is the bill that my colleague, Michelle Child, shared with the committee, which is on your web page for today. And so that's what the house your counterparts in the house are currently looking at H549. In the miscellaneous motor vehicle.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Quick question, because I scanned the other bill and it appeared that was not an actual driver's license, that was an ID.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah. So the DMV administers the state issued identifications. And so there's three different things we're gonna talk about today. The non driver identification, which is non operator's license, and it's for folks who don't have an operator's license. And currently, under existing law, DOC and DMV will work together to provide a no cost non driver ID to an individual who has been sentenced to a period of six months or more as they're exiting the correctional system. So exiting the state correctional facility, they'll work together to issue the non driver ID at no charge. The h five four nine, which is in the house, proposes to expand that to not just individuals who are sentenced, but individuals who are detainees, so they haven't been sentenced yet. The difference being that with someone who's sentenced, you know the period of the sentence, so you have a general idea of when they're going to be released. With a detainee, they could be released tomorrow. They could be released six, eight, ten years from now if they then get sentenced. So because detainees are often awaiting trial, etcetera. So you don't know are they going to be, you know, is the court going to find that they are not guilty and have them released, or are they going to be sentenced to time served, etcetera. So there's more uncertainty with detainees upstairs in house corrections and institutions. They're working with DOC and DMV on whether it would be possible to expand the program to detainees and how that would look. I'm not gonna get into that today because it doesn't make sense to speculate about what they may or may not do and waste your afternoon. What I will do is just highlight that because that's what sparked this is house corrections institutions was looking at that. I drafted some initial language for DMV's proposal to expand this to not just non driver IDs, but to operators licenses and permits. So operator's license is just a fancy name for driver's license. And so that's the proposal that's in the miscellaneous DMV bill as I had originally drafted it. Not being an expert on corrections law, I inadvertently termed things so that we captured both individuals who had been sentenced and detainees. And that raised flags because it would have inadvertently expanded the program without a discussion of how you implement that, etcetera. And that was that was a a me drafting error, not a DMV error in their proposal.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit because I'm sure that that would have eventually come up. But the The detainees. And so we we're we're having to deal with it now so we cover everything. So I'm just trying to get through those.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. But we're I don't want to.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I I

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: thought I was about to get

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: No. It's like,

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: oh. It's Friday.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Hail of Brooklyn. We just we just we just have to deal with it now. Yeah. And and because I'm sure it would have eventually come up, and I and it's better to deal with everything now because that's a gag.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: You know? It it's gonna be a potential question depending on I mean, it could be a potential question this year. It could be a potential question down the road. Mhmm. The language that is in the motor vehicle bill now is just to expand the existing program, which is for sentenced individuals, to cover driver's licenses and learner's permits. And so I wanted to kind of frame this and let you know why suddenly flags went up, and this suddenly became more than just sort of a policy proposal that was in the miscellaneous motor vehicle bill.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: So let me just, and I should have thought about this earlier, but I think it's important that people know what is happening now because the bill just speaks to what we want to do. It's we know the situation now. And so I don't know if you're the right person to let us know that.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So you do have Nancy Prescott, who's the director of operations for DMV here and she can speak to the current program more than I can. I you've essentially heard what I can describe, which is that they have a program to provide individuals who have been sentenced with a non driver ID at no cost when they exit There, or they end their period of incarceration.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Right, but it's important to know what happens when they go into incarceration. Like, why do they need that to happen? So do you mind, Damian?

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Do you

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: wanna sit up here?

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: The record, I am Nancy Prescott, Director of Operations at DMV. So to clarify your question, is why they need an ID? Exactly, what happened to their ID? Because when we talked about this in transportation, it seemed as if DMV had nullified or canceled their ID and I don't think that that's the case. That's correct. So they still technically have, I mean there are There are expiration

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: dates to all credentials. Yes. So, if one went into incarceration at the time with something that was valid, depending on their time to be sentenced, would depend on if they actually have one or not. I can't speak regarding DOC in regards to Department of Corrections and what they do with those possessions because I do know they have a process and they are not the lock keepers of such documentations. The process for DMV, we work and have an MOU active right now and have for the last five years with the Department of Corrections in regards to this specifically for non driver IDs for individuals that are within one month to two months of release date is our current process. Our current MOU and statute language speaks of issuing a non driver ID only. The language that Damian is bringing forth and has cleaned up a little bit is in regards to we always want to give the individual the best credential to go out and to start their new life out on the best foot that they can. We have found that some individuals will have that new non driver ID in their possession through our MOU process. However, they come later on at a DMV to upgrade to a license if and when applicable to So if they are eligible, we want to be able to give them that credential versus a non driver is what this specific language is about.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Great. Thank Yes. Questions on that. One is, are these IDs real IDs? So that would be one threat that I would have. Sure. And the second question would be, since we now have IT kind of falling in our lap, is to does the correction system and DMV systems talk to each other so that you at DMV would know when an inmate is coming up for release and corrections would know whether or not that individual's license needs to be renewed kind of automatically?

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: So let me answer your first question. All IDs are not real IDs. It all depends on what we have for documents from previous or that we are starting a new case and what Department of Corrections was able to obtain on their behalf. Because you do need an elevated certain documents that must be by federal guidelines to be obtained a real ID.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Right, so I guess we think that would be more value than just an ID if in fact

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: That is always

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yep. Yeah. So with with every ID that we're gonna talk about today well, with the operator's license and the non driver ID, you've got two versions, the real ID and the non real ID. If you look at the DMV bill, you'll notice that we've added a clarification for the current program to provide non driver IDs to inmates who are exiting the correctional system, that they provide documentation necessary for either a non real ID or a real ID, just to clarify that those are the two things and we're not, and it's going to depend on what we can obtain for the individual. In some cases, they're not able to obtain all the documentation, in some cases individuals don't want to provide all the documentation. But yeah, so that is always an option and always the goal is to get the best credential possible.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: And if I may answer your second question, which was in regards to do our systems talk and they do not. What it is, is we have an individual team at Department of Corrections along with a group of individuals at DMV. We have through our MOU setup procedures, which so we're receiving a file email secured, every Friday. Per our MOU, DMV has seven days to turn around that work. We get it on Friday afternoon. We typically are done Monday or Tuesday working those credentials. From there, as you are aware, being a Vermonter, our credentials are printed out of state. From there, the address that they get delivered to is the Waterbury DOC where they are then given to their caseworkers to go out to the inmates prior to release.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Okay, thank you.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: You're welcome. Thank you.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Okay, so, like I just mentioned, the clarification in section one of the DMV bill is just to clarify that it's documentation necessary for either the non real ID or the real ID ID card or identification card. And just to make sure we're all on the same page here, because sometimes this generates confusion. Is everyone familiar with the federal real ID program?

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Good. Just so that we're not I've had people say, well, wait, is it is it a real ID or not? And it's like, hold on. There's uppercase real ID and lowercase real ID. So in the operator's license section, which is section two, this is adding language to our law on replacement licenses, and what it says is an individual sentenced to serve a period of imprisonment of six months or more in the custody of the commissioner of corrections who holds an unexpired license issued under Vermont law or who hold a Vermont operator's license that expired not more than three years prior shall be eligible to apply for a replacement license and be provided with that license for a fee of $0, provided they provide all of this in advance of release from custody. So if they can't provide the necessary documentation or they can't gather that, this wouldn't apply. This also doesn't apply to, or at least as it's currently formulated, doesn't apply to post release things. So if you get a non driver ID before release, you couldn't then go to the DMV three months later and say, Well, I want my free license now. This is like they try to get you the best credential they can as you're exiting. Under current law, they would have to pay for the driver's license. They would get the non driver ID for free. So this would extend the free credential to operators' licenses. And then to do this, they have to provide proof of Vermont residence and a mailing address for that they'll have upon release custody. This addresses issues of, if you have someone who's in custody in Vermont, but they're going back to live with family in, let's say, Utah or Wyoming, you don't want to issue them a Vermont driver's license and then send them out of the state. You want them to get a driver's license in the state where they're going be living.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Just a question, what if they're temporarily going to be living in Utah? And then come back?

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: That's a good question.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: So you need to be a Vermont resident in order to get a Vermont licensed credential. So, if they are able to give us their address and under herdery state that they are gonna be a Vermont resident and residing here, that's where they would get it. If for any reason they're going temporary to Utah, that's just them visiting, right? They still would have all of their residency requirements probably here in Vermont versus in Utah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: So you mail it to Vermont?

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: They would go to the

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Vermont address, that's correct. Okay, thank you.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: And then Subdivision 3 requires that as part of reentry planning, DOC would ask individuals if they would like, assuming they're eligible, to obtain an operator's license, and provide the individual with information regarding the required documentation, and any associated costs. So the license itself is no cost, but there may be costs associated with, for example, obtaining documents to prove citizenship or something like that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: The Yep. Yes. And that would include birth certificate or like, which they would have to go to, I would suspect, Right.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So and there are differences too, depending on whether it's like a Vermont birth certificate or you have to get it from out of state. Okay. And that's something that Nancy and her colleagues at or counterparts at DOC are able to talk to more than more than I am. But my understanding is that it varies with document and where you have to get it. Yeah. And potential charges that might

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: be associated with that. Well, I would suspect that that also includes proof of residence. You just can't say that. You'd have to have some sort of proof whether that would suspect a utility bill or something that on it as

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: well. If you can't and provide the say, for instance, you are going to be living with a family member, the family member will then fill out an affidavit with their proof of residency as well as noting that this individual will be residing there because they may not have had an ample time to receive the mail or things in their name

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: the That rest of the was my next question.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: Thank you.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: And then Subdivision 4 provides that DOC and DMV would coordinate to provide the license, and so this is the MOU that Nancy was talking about. That'll be, have to be updated to incorporate this. And then section three does all of this again with respect to the learner's permit, with the big difference being that you have to hold either an unexpired learner's permit or one that expired not more than two years prior instead of the three years with the license. And if your license or learner's permit expired longer ago, you're going to have to go through the normal process and won't be able to take advantage of this. So that's what's in the bill at this point. The language has been updated at this point to be limited to individuals who are sentenced and to exclude detainees, understanding that that hadn't captured the DMV's proposal, which was just to expand the existing program, and that this committee and your counterparts in the house are the appropriate place to decide whether it should be expanded beyond individuals who are incarcerated or serving a sentence. I'm sorry. I'm not good with this terminology. Clearly, I'm out of my comfort zone. But, yeah, so that has been trimmed back just to make sure that it's limited to what was actually proposed by the DM faith.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: Okay. Great. It's a

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: good program. And so, are there questions for Damian?

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: I have a question but I think it's more for D. O. C. But if either of you have an answer. We're talking about the DOC caseworkers probably helping with this and at least delivering the license back to them. Do you know if this is an appreciable additional obligation on the caseworkers that they are gonna be trained for, prepared for, if it's in the DOC probably to have enough caseworkers to cover yet another thing that they need to do. I can't

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: answer that.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: So I'll just just to clarify, we already have this in place Yes. For the last five years. So whether we're giving the caseworker or DOC is giving the caseworker a non driver ID or a license is the same lift and same obligation at this time regarding the DMV miscellaneous language.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: Presumably this would be a lot more people taking advantage of it.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: If h five forty nine, right, because that's where it expands regarding detainees of that. This is not necessarily expanding significantly more for the fact that that individual would already be eligible for a non driver ID.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: So you don't know how many more people will be asking for driver's licenses or alertness permits versus just a non driver ID? No.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: I can't distinguish that because we don't do that. However, what I can say is one would be leaving with something. So if they could leave with a license, we weren't giving it to them, but we would get them a non driver ID.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: Okay. This is happening for all of them in any way for a non driver ID?

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: That's correct. That's it. Great. And just

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: to So that does answer my question.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yes.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: And to quantify it, last year from January to December 2025, we produced about 500 non driver IDs, just to give you a number.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: Okay, great, thanks.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Okay, we'll have DOC in here. My understanding is that they, this program is helpful to them. Okay, any other questions or comments?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: All right. Great.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Well, thank you, Damian.

[Damian Leonard, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Thanks for having me

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: out. Thanks. You're welcome.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: Is there anything else you think we should know at

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: this point? No, just to your point, it could and it will expand upon consideration of $5.41. That's all. But that knows exactly. It seems

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: think like was my concern.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: Perfect. It was seems like we're kind of intertwining. So I myself included. I'm just like, one are we speaking on today?

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: I'm very familiar with the difference there. Okay. Right. Excellent.

[Nancy Prescott, DMV Director of Operations]: So, yeah, the impact, again, I don't see a difference.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Member)]: Yes. This would be the thing. The other one, probably significantly.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Member)]: I wonder why it wasn't matching up. Had to roll one up. I was like, what? This is. So she'll get to miss him when he's.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair)]: Control over how long they're headed. Right. Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Chair)]: But they also