Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: It is warm. I don't know when that was Maybe they Good afternoon. We are back on Senate Committee on Institutions and it is still 01/06/2026. And now we have buildings and general services and we have the commissioner, Wanda Bennington with us. And we'll go around and introduce ourselves, Wendy Harrison, who chairs this committee and senator for the Windham District.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair, Windham District)]: And I'm Robert Plunkett, senator of the Windham District. It feels like I already know you, even though this is my second year. So You might do. But And

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: vice chair. Senator Joe Major, Windsor.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: Senator John Benson, Orange.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Senator Bennington's first day. Yes. So, I'm Wanda Manoli. I'm the Commissioner of Buildings and General Services. I've been serving in this role for about a year and a half now. And but I had a wonderful opportunity of spending almost twenty years at this department before I transitioned and and came back, so welcome. It's hard to believe we're back here again. I feel and Elaine and I are just walking down the hall and gosh. I feel like it's the end of the session already. And it's only the the first day. And so with me, I have some of my staff and I would like to start with Emily Kosinski. She is my deputy commissioner. She has done a phenomenal job. She's getting the whole operations and how we move in group you know, at BGS, and she's a great partner. You can always reach out to her if I'm not available. We work very closely to together. For, the other members and for our newest member, we have Joe Major, who, forty years almost. Joe is our director of, design and construction. Joe will spend a lot of time in here. Joe has only worked for VGS. In the state, so he is, you know, proud to come come through. And, Tabrina is the, our project manager, but she's also an architect. And Sabrina has the, rates Sabrina has been fortunate to be the lead on the AHS, Women's Correctional Facility and the Youth Stabilization Treatment Facility, but she has been leading the project team and the key relationships and partnerships with DOC and DCF and has done a phenomenal job. And then Cole, I believe you also met last year. Cole is the legislative liaison. He does special projects, all of our reports. Cole is a great person you can reach out to as well. Cole, you will see him here a lot. Was not necessarily here to testify, but he will definitely, he can answer questions, but he can also get immediate information that you need. So, thank you. Thank you. So, with that, if we could get We were asked to come in and do an overview of the woman's reentry and correctional facility status update and the stabilization of treatment facility. I feel like I've talked the last two hours, so my team may hear me being even quieter. We just presented this exact presentation which is very short and sweet to House Corrections and Institutions. So, I'm going to start with the Women's Reentry and Correctional Facility And what I would like to say, so where I want to start and it's not in detail on here, but the acts of 02/4162, section 30 gave specific language to the Commissioner of Buildings and General Services and that was to he gave us authority to purchase land for the woman's correctional facility of the replacement in the event that we, working with corrections, were unable to identify appropriate state owned site locations for the replacement of the reentry and the correctional facility, then I would have authority to purchase land. And then there was a list of criteria, which is the site criteria that we have here. You were not specific to say it was in Chittenden County, but working with our partners, Chittenden County is the area that they wanted to stay because it really meets the needs of the burden of the relocation of the staff, the tourist aid staff and also to have the public transportation and to work with the employment options. So Shannon County has been the area that we've been focused on. In

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Would you like questions at the end? Or

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: I'm I'm here to Uh-huh. Let's let's let's mix it up and have questions as we go.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: So given that that and, obviously, it's currently in Chendon County. Are we exclusively looking to buy land in Chendon County and we're not going outside? Or

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So I'm I am going to I'll get to I

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: So maybe Joe should just shut up until you get through your No. And you'll answer the question.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: I so I'm gonna tell you that

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: I'm saying this, Joe,

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: not that Joe.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Decision that was made was yes. Well, he'd like to talk to me about that, but, anyway, it's not. So I think that all of you are very aware that we worked closely with the town. So a decision was made to locate on state property that was in Essex Town. And since July '24, we've been working on changing the zoning to the two sites so we could build this correctional facility. We, in working with the group, the first thing that happened is we really said, why are you doing two sites? So, Woodside, for those of you who are familiar, was permitted for correctional use. We've redesigned Woodside. There's not enough land to put a woman's correctional facility there. So, you know, that that ship's right sail. So, we needed to get the use to build a correctional facility on the Essex property. One of the feedbacks that we got back last year was, why are you asking us to give you permits on two sites? Right? So, was and I can understand. I'm gonna use the word trust. Are they really trusting us? Are we doing something nefarious? Are we saying we want these two sites because all a sudden, once we have it, we're gonna put another correctional facility on the other site. So, I heard them and I understood. So, we modified our request for the River Road site and we spent some money. So, we had two sites. So, before we modified it, Tabrina actually engaged with an engineering firm, and we did more detailed study on which site is the preferable site, water, septic, access, design. And what we found out is that the site that was the preferred site by DOC was actually the less viable. It was not a viable site really to build on. So, we shipped it and we modified our our request on on the permitting. We were engaged in multiple questions and writings and and information we provided to Essex. And at the end of the the day, they in October, they denied our request for the to to, permit for the use of corrections.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Okay. May I Yeah. Do you believe that it was denied more because of community pressure, or do you do you not want to answer that question?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: I I am I I will will tell you what I believe because that may not be correct. Sure. No. But

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: because this is what this is that was kind of my understanding is it it wasn't necessarily a situation where it couldn't be done. Yeah. It was more the community Yeah. Said we didn't want.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So I I think there you know, we went to the public meetings, and they weren't tough public meetings. I'm you know? I mean, and I wanna commend Essex Town and the way they manage those, how they reached out to the community because it was, you know, there were a lot of emotions, but there were people who supported and understood and knew the importance of this and saw benefits, then there were people just, you know, we don't want it in our neighborhood. But there was also a breakdown at one point in time, because this is really important for me. Also, I don't think they necessarily trusted us, and I'm using that. But what it boiled down to is history. So, when we, the state, build a correct ional facility in a community, we enter into agreements, typically, on our contribution above and beyond what the building is going to be. So, it could be an increase of pilot, it could be an expansion on a water plane or on the sewer plant. It could be improvements with transportation and and more sidewalks or adding bus services to an area that don't have them. So, is a real this is part of the process. What has occurred, which was a shift for for me, is that we we enter into those discussions once we know where we're building it and we're moving forward. They wanted some of that commitment from the state upfront and we weren't in a position to give it. So, because right now we were just trying to get the authority to build this type of facility there. We still had to go through all of the other permitting, all of the other processes, and that's typically when we sit down and we talk about what their needs are. And that conversation is led by BGS and you bring in someone, you know, from the community and maybe someone from the legislature and someone from finance or from the administration and you sit down and you talk about these. So, for example, is that they need a new road, we would be bringing in transportation to say, you know, can you reprioritize? That's part of what was important and and they wanted to focus on that, and right now we had to see if it was even gonna be viable to build there. So, think not only, I think it was that, but also the community outreach. Emily and I have really talked about it and Joe, going forward, we wanna bring a process in place upfront around this so everyone understands and where it fits in. You know, we could get the list, we could talk about it, but that vote on changing the use, they really want to make it contingent on this agreement around all of the other things. And we're not in a position yet to do that because and I will use Springfield Correctional Facility.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Thank you, because I mean, and I was

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: a Because Springfield you know, we did a lot for that community. Yes.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Yeah.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: And if you look at that agreement but it came at the right time. And it wasn't negotiated in isolation, it was a partnership. And we just we weren't there yet because we really needed to do the design and start the other permitting process. And so, I understand why, like I said, Essex was very good to work with, and they were very professional. I understand they didn't directly say that, but I know that was from some of the comments, I know that was some of the concern. And if I may, Madam Chair, would my team add anything to that?

[Emily Kosinski (Deputy Commissioner, BGS)]: Yeah, think that there were also some questions both in terms of community impact, possible community impacts like public safety impacts, etcetera. That you just couldn't answer with specificity. In partnership with DOC, we tried, we provided written responses to questions. Commissioners were at public meetings and tried to give the best information they could, but you can't always give a perfect crystal ball answer for what this will mean definitely for the community. So I think that that kind of was part of the community concerns about what does this mean for us when we can't say with specificity like this is exactly what the future state will look Right.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: That's interesting, just a comment, I was at one of the earlier meetings and the police chief and the fire chief from South Burlington came and expressed that there had been no problems.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: And so that's what the data is saying, but when you talk to so all of you represent your counties, you know, every community is different. I will, you know, I will just say not just, you know, Essex, but other communities, when you talk to their local leaders of those emergency services, their impressions are different and they're concerned, and they want those concerns. So, is South Burlington a little bit different because of its proximity to the hot right? Because of of how they manage it than where maybe if you're, you know, up in Essex or, you know, in Randolph. And so, their concerns were real. Sure. But I think to the point, if you look at the current location, the demands aren't that high. But that was what are the demands really gonna be? And do we negotiate additional money to support, for example, those emergency services? And we just didn't have the data.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: So I'm say commission commissioner, definitely commissioner. I I wanna say that I, on two levels, I appreciate what you just did. One, because in hearing this, what I conveyed was kind of what I heard, you know, and so there was more to it than there actually was. The second thing, what what you did and how you negotiated this is absolutely how we're supposed to do it and do it in good faith to our communities throughout the, throughout the state, no matter if it's Essex or or wherever. We did it in good faith. We couldn't provide something, and you said we couldn't provide that because we didn't have the data. Just saying, okay, we'll do it, and then go back later and say, oh, we can't do it. So I I appreciate what you did in going through this. All that said, we gotta find it.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So, I I I hope so first of

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Can I just ask a question? Yes. And

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: I understand that you couldn't get to an agreement, you couldn't make the actual commitments at this time. Did you explore, was the community open to a memorandum of understanding, where you laid out steps and when decisions could be made, and when further agreements as information became available so that there was a roadmap that didn't necessarily commit to anything but said, if x happens, then y occurs. And so we are showing a good faith that here's our process, and we wanna work with you and see if we can come to a brief.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So, senator, first of all, I wanna say welcome to your first day. So you you are correct. And and this is where, you know, I came in and the the everything was moving. Going forward with where we are now, we are going to address exactly what you're saying more in that model to say, okay, the first thing you're going to ask us is about sort of what are the enhancements for us to support this facility? And here's the roadmap, this is the process, this is best practice, this is how we work with other communities, and this is what we're recommending. So, they're aware upfront because, as I said, they wanted to they were you know, even with Virgin's, you know, it was, they knew there was opportunity to enhance multiple things and it's been a practice of the state with facilities. But when do you do it? And what does that look like? And so, some people may have perceived that we weren't going to do that, we just wanted that permit and we were gonna move on. And so, you know, you always have to reflect on how did you present it, what did you do, and this is one of our biggest reflections. Set aside their community and how they felt about it. Again, I feel that the working relationship was respectful, we all understood in Essex, and they just were not comfortable changing that property used to allow us to build a correctional facility. And I understand that. I mean, you know, I sat in those those meetings. They were pretty emotional. So, what did we do as a result of that? And this is where you're going. This is not on the PowerPoint, but what my team, what we did is we sat down and then we met with DOC and we came up with, you know, what are our options at a very high level. We didn't get into it. So, I want this committee to know what we did because I'm going to tell you what we're doing in just a moment. So we we talked about the advantages and the risk and looked at, do we want to reengage with the town of Essex? And we believe it's we need to move this project forward and the community isn't ready. So, you know, I'm just summarizing. We looked at Windsor State Prison site. Don't shoot the messenger. And, but we needed to look at our state home facility and we looked at that. And, you know, the risk definitely outweighs our risk. You know, the reentry vision would have to be redefined because of where the location is and all the site specifications. There's been multiple studies done on the use of the Windsor site. This legislative body, this building, have made changes, you know, to the property and the protection with ANR. Windsor has a clear plan that they'd like to pursue, you know, housing. There have been multiple acts. So all of that came into it. The geographic locations would have a huge impact on DOC's operation, their budget, on their staffing. So, we said, okay, you know, so that was again laying these out, we talked about them. Then we went and we talked about reusing South Burlington site And we talked about the advantages and the risk of that, you know, and that one we said, know, at this time we're not pursuing because the South Burlington site, we own it, It's in the location. All the services are there. It has the permits. However, the building, as you know, does not meet the vision of the programming and you would have to demolish. You would have to rebuild. The site would be tight, you'd really have to probably process and think about how would you do reentry. You could try to make it fit, and you would definitely have more floors than anticipated because the programming has changed. Remember, South Burlington was designed as a man's correctional facility with a gym. That was that's how the original design was. Right? You've added education programs. You've added other. Then you transition that to women. And so site is feasible, but it has other programming impacts. And I'm just gonna take a sip of water because Sure. I'm dry. I'm not sick. I I just knew. And then we said, let's look for a new site. And we talked about advantages and disadvantages. Where we landed after that was to pursue a new site. So we are finalizing an RFP that we wanna have posted by the January, And this RFP will be in the chitin, it's not on here, but basically it's going to be within that 30 mile radius of the existing facility because there's a contract language with the union and you've given us criteria that says you wanted to find a place that supports the existing staff. Really that bubble is that radius of 30 miles. We are putting in the RFP that it has to, we are saying this site that we're looking for with the people that will respond to therapy, it is for a correctional facility. We will put that the permitting and that process as a part of it. So, we're being much more specific in this RFP on the conditions on the site, on the expectations. We currently have $15,000,000 and so, you've given us the authority to purchase the land, and to continue with the development of a design. We're not doing any more design development right now cause we need to find the location. So, the schedule is RFP out by the January, RFP responses back by the March 1, then we do a site evaluation. So, we expect to have everything completed by April. So, what does that mean? Well, if we get responses and we get people that are interested in this, then we'll pursue it. We may not get any responses and then we're gonna have to sit and say, okay, what is the next step? How do we want to approach this? And, you know, so that's really the status of where we are, but what I want to say to this committee is that, you know, it's been a really strong, good working relationship with DOC, with a new commissioner. He has jumped in and taken this on and has been really invested in the conversations. My team has been extremely, you know, invested. We know this facility is critical to the state and we know you want a replacement. And I'll tell you how institutions have said, well, so if you get the land, what will you be done? We're saying that you're still looking, you know, you would be lucky if it were three years. That would be because all the stars were aligned and those stars would be permitting and decent bids and funding in the capital build to build it. So, we're saying, you know, three to five three to five years, you know, with with everything in place. And that's with us making a decision this year and purchasing the land. If we don't take that action and we've gotta start over, then you just keep moving. You keep moving that that out. And I just this footnote that's here, you know, at the at the, Joint Justice Oversight Committee testimony, we did an overview. I believe you were online, madam chair. I don't think you were there. We did an overview on, do we need any potential language around these projects to move them forward? So, as you know, we don't talk about policy until the governor does his, you know, the capital bill and, you know, his state of the state. But, we did say that we may be requesting potential language for consideration around zoning requirements for critical state infrastructures. And because that has seemed to be for both projects, for these projects that are important, That seems to be one of the issues. And I don't think we're trying to be in any way, if language were proposed to disrespect the local process, we've just gotta be able to align because you've now spent, what, three years, four years on permitting on this?

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Two years now, right? Yeah. Twenty four. It's been like four.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: A hundred. And so, I'm not saying that that's happening, but I know other people. I know the Justice Oversight Committee asked us about that, and I know other people have asked about it. So I'm just making a a footnote for you here.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: I'm sure could I

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Yeah. Just let her finish your sentence. No.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: I was I was gonna sort of wrap up. Okay.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: Cool. And, again, I'm coming into this, new, so I may have been through some of these things, but I'm assuming as you're looking for a new site you have an immediate need, but as we listen to the Commissioner of Corrections, the number of incarcerated individuals has increased. Also programs for rehabilitation, are changing so as you look at the site are you being cognizant of the fact that we need to buy, if we're going to buy a site, that it's going to be expandable down the road as programs change, as needs change.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Yes, so there's, I have two things that I'd like to say to you. So first of all, BGS, we lead, we're the experts in construction, we do this. But, you know, successful projects are based on partnerships. And, so we work very closely with the commissioner and his team and their program. Right? We're not the experts on how do you, run a correctional facility and what programs we need. They it's it's sort of like getting your specifications and their growth and what the population is and what the vision. So that's a part of the process, and what I can tell you with confidence is that that is incorporated into this, and that's why some of the other sites that I highlighted don't work for them because of that. And then when we build anything new, which we haven't done in a long time, you have to have expansion. Have to think about future growth. So, you know, you may be looking at a new office building, but you also want to say, well, if I need to expand that in ten years, can I, do I have the capacity? So, that is a part of our process. We're looking at a minimum of 20 acres, that is to support this program in any future growth.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: And that's for the main facility and the reentry facility? Correct. And reentry would be a

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: separate facility? There so I think you could connect, but have it a separate operation to the building or have it a stand alone. I think that right now the design has it as a stand alone. Yeah. Yeah. But the but a new site may require I and I say this, a new site may require us to reconfigure that, still keeping the goals of a separate facility.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Yes. So one that can be

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: accessed by family members. Mhmm. Absolutely. That's right. And there's also, you know, cost, right? So, you know, if you have one heating plant versus two, all of that stuff that we've talked about. So, right now the design and you've invested in that and we've spent money on that does have that separate, but every site dictates, you know, some shift and, you know, I'll say like even with the Essex site, when we had this schematic design, once Sabrina brought in her engineers and she started laying that design out, she was having to shift it. Because one of the things, and I know I'll mess this up, but there's a rule about trees and hillsides in Essex. So all of a sudden, right, that that local requirement, she's shifting the building. And so I just wanna say, I I just wanna say, you never know.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Yeah. No. I appreciate that. Thank you. But but there's are, there are some things that are necessary to the legislature. Are you clear on what those things are?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Yes, the concept remains the same. Okay. It just may look a little different than we, than, than two completely separate buildings, much like you would do in a downtown area where you may have a shop and a residence in the same building with separate entrances that are completely separate, you know, separate from each other. But that that concept of two separate programs were the main. Okay. So I want to say that, yes. And that's DOC's job with us and their partnership and and what they're doing. We don't go off and design what we think. It it's partnership. You know, I I just got

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: concerned Windham.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Really quickly when, because I always want to say absolutely and that's the goal, but something could change that. But I think the concept in the program, that's all. Right. Would not change.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: So, a couple questions. Last year we didn't really talk that much about the detainees because it wasn't as big of an issue, but now it's huge. The detainees are, you know, there's just so many people detained. Is there any conversation about having different facilities for detainees?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So, I am not engaged directly with Corrections about that. I do know when we were meeting with the town of Essex, the commissioner so, Commissioner Murad is who you should really talk about. Mhmm. I know they have, discussed this with. I know the population and what they're building for. To your point, you have a certain amount of population, then you have projections. It's like building a school. You know. Today you have this many schools, what's your five year projection? I I so I I know their their projection of beds has increased. I do not know if he has calculated into that, the detainees that you were referring to. You need to have that conversation. So, if he came back to me and said, I need a 190 beds because I want to accommodate the detainees, then Sabrina would be told to revise the plans to make 190 beds.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Right, just one second. So, but this RRP is going out this month.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: RRP is not about number of beds. Our RRP is about the land. Just the property. Just the property. Okay. Yes.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: So on our last presentation, they actually have a slide with immigration detainee trends for 2025, and they've actually they're actually starting to drop. They were at

[Sabrina (Project Manager/Architect, BGS)]: a high of 190, and now they're down

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: to 97 for December 2025. So that's in our last slide, in our last

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: presentation. Great.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So that would be a great follow-up. So right now, so this goes back to our conversation, Madam Chair, about we have a design today, but as you get the land, that could change. Right. Alright. That's right. Okay. Perfect. More questions about the women's reentry and correctional facility?

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: I think that's enough. Well, first of all, thank you because I I I did have questions and and talking to them, the chair, vice chair, just so you know this is really on our list right now. Having and and I'm not, you know, saying something that you already don't know, and I think, simply because of what what we're currently dealing with is is unacceptable for the standards that we have at the moment. And you've been put into a very unenviable position, and I appreciate the job that you're doing in trying to figure this out. It is not easy, but we are tasked to do it. So know that you're absolutely going to get the support of this room and doing it.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: So I really appreciate that, and I say to the committee, thank you for the support, and that's why we, you know, after everything that occurred in our discussions, moving forward with a new site, being very transparent with the property owners that this is going to this site is the for women's correctional reentry program, you know, permitting all of those elements that are important. Having that upfront, so when they look at that RFP, instead of a broker just sending us and then and, you know, this is what brokers do,

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: so it's not

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: a betting, but sending us 20 pieces of property where we've gotta sit there and evaluate it, and no one really knows what we're building there. So, we're just saying we're looking for property to build a woman's reentry and correctional facility in this area with, you know, 20 minimum of 20 acres of land, you know, any free permits that, you know, you know, benefits of that. It just goes on and on. And and so, you know, well, it didn't work in Essex. And let me tell you, those sites were not the ideal sites. I'm I well, it was state owned. First of all, we may have had to pay for some of that land because federal dollars were used to the potential served highway. So, it wasn't necessarily clean and free land. And when Tabrina did the analysis with the engineer, she learned of, I mean, the cost to develop the site was, skyrocketing. Think it's the best way to describe Would you agree? Yes, the total area was limited to the price. Very limited. So while on paper, it looked like 20 acres or whatever it was, I think you We ended up with about eight local acres, it was really very tight. Right. And so, with this RP, I mean, we want we we want 20 acres. If if it exists, maybe we'll take 17, but we don't want 20 that's got 12 acres of wet liquor.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: You and everybody else. Right. The center angle.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: Thank you, chair. Has anybody raised their hands and said to build it here?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: No. Okay. I'm not sure. Yeah. That that was I was just gonna share my own opinion. I'll I'll keep that to myself. Mhmm. But I do think the people in this state that are aware of the needs that you are all concerned about is limited. And I think you have, as you well know, you've got some strong advocates who oppose even incarceration of the the female population. They have a very bad voice. Yeah. And I think there's Or you

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: have to keep them in that hell hole where they're at.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Well, I think some of them would like us just to close it and and That's not baked in reality. So, you know, and I think that partnership, I think there's this perception, again, is me, but I've sat in these meetings that Corrections is doing this, but it's a part of our judicial process. Corrections doesn't choose that I get incarcerated. Our judicial process does.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Yes. Also, and I and I hope you don't mind me doing this sooner than it goes simply because you're you're in real estate, and and I really wanna kinda go on your expertise as well with with this as well and going out to because I I and I don't know as far as the building part of it. I know you went 20 and then eight, can you go up? I mean, is that is that

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: a possibility? No. Are limits. So, the site in Essex, we had to redesign and actually, because of the site limitations, we had to, redesign two floors. Okay. To two floors. That is not DOC's preference.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Yeah.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: They have a very clear programming, staffing, it's all connected how they want to provide appropriate necessary services to the individuals that are incarcerated by the State of Vermont. And so, their vision is very clear. So, the more you go up, and that's why South Burlington rebuilding there, you're only going up. You know, you're not going out. You know, so but a site but that particular site, that's why I say hindsight, but site probably was not the best. And that was one of the that was one of the changes once, you know, to bring on the team who really evaluated the site, the sloping and the water and sewer, it's like, you got this, you don't have this much.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Thank you.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: All right, yes.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: Couple questions. So you're looking for a 20 acre site. How many usable acres does the program require?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: We want 20. Would love to have 20, understanding that we may not, we may not, we most likely will not get that. And then we just, it's just a compromise. It may be great.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: Just like if you're

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: going out for

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: 20 acres and you want 20 acres of land, you're not getting 20 acres of use finally.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: We will. You will be looking at all options. That's that's right. I think that's most important with this RFP is we are being so specific that what the use is for, permitting that as needed, know, we want to be on a municipal system that has the capacity. That was one of the other things in Essex, they're sewer, they're water. They were very hesitant to give us the capacity. Well, they didn't have it.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: So it was it

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: was It was it was We were not gonna So it all said to give us an answer. So we I mean, but our own analysis is what I think we figured out that they they have capacity, but I think they were reserving it for housing. Mhmm. Would and which makes sense. Right? We you know? So again, that was now is that we were forced to design on-site. So I think back to, you know, we want to be connected, right? We want the infrastructure that supports long term, not a long term maintenance or replacement cost.

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: And then the second question would be, you're going out for RFP end of the month, what's your projected time period when you're looking for people to submit?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Here's our schedule. So our goal is to have the RP out on the streets by the January. It could happen a little sooner. And then we're looking at giving people a month because of the process, because we're the state, so you know in that month there will become a point in time where if you have clarity questions or written responses or wanting more, that's something that Sabrina leads. So, they get the ERP and then they say all questions need to be submitted in writing by this date, and then because everyone gets a copy of that response, to bring in a hold of meeting to have them come in and ask questions. I'm sure she'll she'll manage how she wants to do that. So then we're hoping for responses back at March. I'm not gonna give an exact date, but March is a month. And then we have to review. We have to evaluate. We have to rate them. We have to read all of these, and and then and we have to look at costs, what are they they charging, and then we will probably go look at those sites because now we have that. And so, we're saying that will take us through March. So, April, and I put it April is our goal of having a selection if we receive sites and having a viable site to then move into negotiations. And we'll still be here. And you'll still be here. But I think, Madam Chair, think what's really important in why we pointed this out is you've given us my goal and our direction is we would I mean, of course, we would inform you, but would be to move forward with purchasing the land because you've given us the money and the authority. We're not we we're we're we're not saying we need specific language and have to wait till the session to end. Okay. I hear you. Okay.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Alright. So just And

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: then I wanna talk about Virginia. But go

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: ahead. No.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: No. I'm not this is really

[Senator John Benson (Member, Orange District)]: Asking the questions, but just listening to your schedule, a suggestion would be to enter into an option to purchase until you've done your due diligence on the site because you may find your site is very different than what you think.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Sir, would you like a job in property management? So that is our practice, right? So you go through the process that you do a letter of intent and then you do everything else. And you'll hear about that once we move to the, to the Youth Stabilization Treatment Center. Good segue. So, this is pretty short and sweet, I'm hoping, because I don't wanna rehash, I think, regens. But what I will say to you is that the Department of Buildings and General Services, since early twenty twenty four, well, it started in '23, BGS had gone out to bid looking for site and we had a, excuse me, and we were looking for a build to suit development agreement for the replacement of the Youth Stabilization Treatment Center. Senator, I will just tell you that we had at one time a building that was in Essex called Woodside and that was the state's Youth Stabilization Treatment Center. We do have some beds that are located in trailers in Middlesex supporting these individuals' needs. This has been a long term need of the state, especially since Woodside was closed. So, this has been a priority. A decision prior to me, and I understand it, was to do a build to suit development agreement for this particular facility and, and what that means is we will enter into a construction development agreement and then when the building transfers to us, it's a leased. It's an all inclusive lease building. And that decision was made because we also have to fund the woman's correctional facility and as you'll learn, you don't have a whole lot of money in the capital bill, so to meet these two demands, that was the path that was taken. BGS went out to bid. We had developers give us bids on property they owned for the youth. We also included the Virgina's property. There was about 10 acres of land in one quadrant that we had identified for this. We needed to expand the district through a zoning process to build this facility there. We and I know some of the members are well aware there was lots of discussions with Virgins, and there were lots of demands and expectations from the state for us to build the facility there. In June, we made a decision to withdraw our request and to move away from the Virgina site. So that we had to reset and we did. One of the things that I just shared with the housing institutions that I want to share with you is that we've talked about the agreements that we have with the communities regarding a correctional facility and the different things that we've done. I still haven't come to total acceptance of this, and I'm still trying to figure it out. Somehow, this has blended over to the youth stabilization facility because and I don't look at this facility as a correctional. And so we were negotiating with Virgins or Virgins wanted to negotiate like Essex did. What are you giving us? What what are you gonna invest in the infrastructure? What are you gonna give us for law enforcement? And and to me, it's one of the things that we need to answer. Are there what are our limits of negotiating? Is it the same expectation? You know, and we are working through that, but I just wanna put that out there because I was like, it's not a correction. In my mind, it wasn't a correctional facility. So, what we did is we went through we worked very closely with DCF and we really we analyzed a lot. We went back and looked at the original bids and did an analysis and had attorneys look at, can we go to the second And the decision was recommendation was no. We probably could have, but our recommendation was no because we had signed an agreement, a legal binding document with a very good firm that we've been working with on the vergeance. And we would have been rejecting that and going to another one. So, decision to end our agreement and to close out that agreement with that developer was the appropriate thing and the right thing to do on behalf of the state. So, we did that. And then we created a new RFP and from lessons learned from the other RFP, we were very, very specific on what we were building, what we needed to do, what we were looking for in a development and build to suit. We're very clear on what the process was going to be is that we basically have a construction development agreement, and then that moves into a lease. We were didn't we were very specific about what we wanted in cost so we could evaluate it. So we issued that RFP in October. We got our proposals back in November, and on December 8, my team and the and the DCF team made a recommendation, and that recommendation is I rated the process of, I did yesterday, I did a letter of intent to the developer that we are interested in moving forward with them and starting negotiations. I'm not trying to hide anything or or not share with you because we have not negotiated and we don't have a signed contract. I can't get into the details, but I can tell you that the site based on our evaluation meets all of that criteria and location and and it's a great first start. And if we get through negotiations and everything comes to, and the stars align, we have potential to start construction in September 2026.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Okay.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: And that's a huge Terrific.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: And that's similar to the process that you are planning to use for the Yeah,

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: except for we're gonna build it and

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Yeah, exactly that, but the

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: RP And I think the the so this RP zone, we were very specific also on this one that all of the permitting requirements and expectations sits with the developer prior the last part. We divided it up. Sabrina was in charge of half, and then the developer would have been in charge of the other half. We will partner. But these developers because what's different is they know their communities, they own the land, they know the community process. Instead of us leading it, they're going to lead it, and we will be there as part of the team. And I think that does make a difference because we have to, I think with confidence, as I look over to my team, I don't think we would have gotten this piece of property as an offer if they hadn't thought about all those permitting requirements that we put on them. They're right. They have to, you know, fill with confidence they're going to help us get there.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: That's big news. Is the, Zoni, can I just and just tell me if you can't say it, but is is is the site? Well, is Will it require a zoning change? You know, I I

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: I think if it's considered a correctional facility, yes. I I wanna be I don't wanna commit to something, but I think, you know, but go ahead. I mean, it's it's about it being a correctional.

[Emily Kosinski (Deputy Commissioner, BGS)]: I think it might, but we're optimistic that if it does need a change that the community will be receptive. Ultimately it's the developer's obligation to determine whether the zoning will allow use to move forward.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Okay, thank you. Well, and that's why I say with confidence, I don't think they would have offered any, you know, we talked about this in house institutions and I think all of you know, to put an RFP together, any kind of this scope, businesses spend hundreds and thousands of dollars. I don't think if they, you know, I have to believe from a business perspective, if they didn't see the potential, they would have invested that time. Yes?

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Can I ask a couple of update questions?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: We are here on your behalf. What's

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: your courthouse? Where are we?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Almost. I believe, Joe, I'm gonna let you take that one away. Occupancy

[Joe (BGS Director of Design & Construction)]: It is out of this month that they're looking at. I'm not a 100% sure, but I know it's almost complete.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: K. Well, I'm sure it's good.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: One of the things we're doing, madam chair, for, the house institutions, and we can share, so if you wanna do it, to fill the void, we are doing updates on projects from last year and this type of thing. That one Good. Yeah. You know, that one would be Yes. That one would be on the list. So if you want us to coordinate Definitely. What we're gonna go back to the office and figure out what we could do this week. Doesn't mean you have to have us in this week, but we can tell you what we're ready on existing projects to present. Yeah. That would be great. Okay.

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Yeah. And even if we don't have time to bring you in, but I think we will, it'd helpful to have the report.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Mhmm. Well, will be PowerPoints on individual Okay. Projects. So that's great.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: And you mentioned it earlier, and I can't let you go find what's out. Windsor Prison, it's been dormant since 2017.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Uh-huh.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Do you look at her or look at me?

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Well, because we've done the studies, but I yep. Well, we don't have any direction to do anything more than

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: that. Okay.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: I mean, that's Correct. You know? So

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Joe is a man of few words at about But are

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: you watching his body language?

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: I'm giving away.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: No. Actually, he does he doesn't he you know, I I only tell you what, and Emily has no body Emily, I have to read her eyes. You can you wanna play poker with me. You don't wanna play poker with those two.

[Senator Joseph "Joe" Major (Member, Windsor District)]: Very cool. Thank you.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Thank you. Yeah. Anything else?

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: No. Thank you for being here. We will, you know, obviously, keep you here or have you here many more times. Yep. There's not much going on.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: Yep. And, you know, our our teams, you know, Joe will will lead on, you know, the I'll always be available, you know, for the most part, but Joe will do he he and his team will do the overview, the status Mhmm. On those projects and where his his team's at. Okay? Thank you for your work. Thank

[Senator Wendy Harrison (Chair, Windham District)]: Thank you.

[Wanda Manoli (Commissioner, Department of Buildings & General Services)]: And happy New Year. Too. I will look at that just in time for the next meeting. Okay. Oh. Anything else? That's no. You are adjourned. Well,

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Vice Chair, Windham District)]: that's nice. We'll meet again after