Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay,

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: so this is Senate Health and Welfare, and we're back looking at H938, and we're Katie on page 19 to 20.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: We just finished 19, we're moving on to 20. Okay. Okay. In Subdivision B1, we have that the office or community partner is providing notice to all applicants regarding penalties for fraud at the time of their application. And two, that there is no penalty to a household for a good faith and material error that was corrected upon notice. Subdivision 3, a household that knowingly fails. Don't have to read it all. I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. Can save above it. So this is more penalty language for false or misleading information. Pending the case, pending the outcome of a Human Services Board hearing, there could be a referral for prosecution. In subsection c, household may be terminated for refusing suitable placements. Subsection d, member or members of the household subject to immediate termination for criminal activity or misconduct not related to disability or victimization related to abuse, sexual assault, or stalking, and a definition of misconduct. Two thousand two eleven is our prioritization section.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Subsection Hang on, hang on. Let's go back up. This is a whole big fraud section. I know that there have been some concerns about this, so I'm gonna look first to AHS about the thinking behind there's a lot here, obviously. I think criminal intent is important, and I was wondering level of fraud or falseness, leaving incomplete information, residency. I understand that. So

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: go ahead.

[Brandon (Agency of Human Services)]: Thank you, Madam Chair Brennan. I would, Agency of Human Services. So I think if we're comfortable with the language in there around fraud and misconduct, the area that we would want to turn the committee's attention to, so maybe in a moment, if you want to focus on that piece first, but here as well is in the area around the termination for misconduct, any exemption that's in there for folks who may commit that misconduct if it's attributable

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: to Okay. We're going to get to that. Yep. I understand that. Brenda, you had a comment?

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: Yeah. I, Brenda Siegel, Ann Homelessness Vermont. We think that the fraud section is way too extensive, and just a very quick example is that we had a client withdraw from a hearing the other day because they were accused of giving false information. They had not given false information, but it scared them so much that they were accused. And it's not it will interrupt their ability to advocate for themselves and other people's ability to advocate for folks. There is a current fraud process that I think we could refer to and that would be we still don't love, but at least that would still put a nod to that you can't commit fraud in the program without having it be so extensive and explicit that might scare you out of actually doing something like going through a Okay, criminal

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: so Brandon, did you want to comment on the current process and how that relates, or Lilly, or

[Brandon (Agency of Human Services)]: I will say, I'm

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: not prepared to be able to speak to what

[Brandon (Agency of Human Services)]: that current process looks like. I don't know if our team is. We can, I can look into that and certainly follow-up with the committee?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We don't have follow-up. We don't have follow-up right now. This is tough, I get it. Will reflect The concern, I think the concern is, you heard is the intimidation of people who are accused of fraud, how they're accused of fraud, guess, is the more to the point. Might be said, look, looks like you have the wrong address in here, pointing a finger. So I'm wondering, is there a way to identify the current fraud process and then have some rules written around this?

[Brandon (Agency of Human Services)]: I think we're always amenable or often amenable to looking at these things in rulemaking. We could certainly consider that as well. I'll notice the conversation from upstairs. I think that this section was important to certain members, and so I certainly can't speak for that.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I I think it's I've I've heard it's also important to folks around the table upstairs, not all of them, but a lot of them. So I'm not interested in going through and making a change to this one at this point, and I do understand the concerns that you've expressed. We just wanna make sure that people are they're already intimidated by the process and where they are in life, so that's a concern. So, I think we'll just hold it here.

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: What about just the fair hearing part? Sorry. Excuse me? What about just the fair hearing part?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I'm gonna move on. Okay.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, we're gonna have to move on. And if there is a process currently in place and something can be worked out by the time this bill gets over to the House, there's still that process, they can send us for the proposal amendment, They can conference with us. But I think we're at this stage of concerns. Okay.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: So we were on twenty two eleven prioritization.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh, no. We're on number one. No. We're not on page 21. Okay. Your conduct is not related to a disability or to victimization related abuse, that one.

[Brandon (Agency of Human Services)]: Yes. Correct.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: What's the problem with that?

[Brandon (Agency of Human Services)]: So, the concern there is that the safety of all participants should be paramount. So, these are individuals who may be in a shelter. If they're posing a risk to other individuals in that shelter, there needs to be a clear prerogative to remove them from that environment. There have been instances where staff, shelter staff, have been injured, and ultimately, they're the ones who are going be tasked with making these decisions about removing somebody who's potentially at risk. We would add as well that there's you know, it's unclear to us who would make a determination about whether or not a disability caused a certain risky behavior or unsafe behavior, and again, we're concerned that we're going end up in human services.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, that understood, but I do think that we're going to have case managers with a caseload that's sufficient for them to understand the individuals you're dealing with. I've thought about this one a lot. I think we leave it for now. Seriously, I get it. I understand what you're saying, but I think it's important to have someone's discretion in place for case managers.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: My comeback.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: 20 to 11, prioritization. This lists priority list Items one through six. Subdivision B, prove this is about proof of an eligible household's disability and the verification for that. That's the list A through B. Presence of a disability shall be verified by the office, community partner, eligible household as a member of a lifelong disability, such as intellectual disability, doesn't have to be

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: re

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: verified. Re verificat. Verified.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Verified. Thank you. Oh, man.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. Three is compliance with ADA. Twenty two twelve, page 23, time limits for participation. Levels one through four. And we have language in subsection b about granting extensions to the time limits for reasons in the list one through four, but it's an including to including, not limited to. Subdivision no. Section two thousand two thirteen is case management services. This is where you struck the sentence that a individual or a household can request for a change in case manager, so that is why that script through is not showing.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: This is an important discussion. So I think we need to have some language in there that allows for a request for a different or a change. And we heard that from, I think we heard it from yesterday. We also heard from the folks.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Sorry. Lily, spoke to the office of economic opportunity. I'm sorry to catch up. Is it possible to go back for a second to the level four hotels and motels? Sure. That adds some clarity on the twelve month period.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So that's lines 13 through 20 on page 23.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Yeah. And specifically, line 16.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yes.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: We have some additional language that we'd like to add, if possible, to clarify what that twelve month look back period is. I think there's been some confusion of that a rolling twelve months or from a certain date, and we'd like to ensure it's a rolling twelve months to meet the intention of equity across the program regardless of when someone experiences in homelessness as opposed to confusion around a July 1 start date, for instance, which both can overwhelm the system.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: What would you put in here, so because I'm not understanding exactly until I hear the sentence.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: So we'd like to just add a little more clarification. So the twelve month period should be calculated from date of application to the same day of the month twelve months prior. And then include in that that emergency housing assistance received during the time period before shall count toward the seventy days for the twelve months time period.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Uh-huh.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: So that it's not

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Can we have that elaborated in the rules? There there because I'm this that sounds really complicated, what you're saying.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: What we've struggled with is when that has been elaborated in the rules, it's it then needs to ongoing concern. Our going to pay? Yeah. Our concern without it is that it each ends the

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: year between April and November, eligible households receive hotel motel support and support services. They only get that for 70 days in a twelve month period. So April 1 this year, April 1 next year. So they only get those seventy days between April and November, between April and April. That's what this reads like.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: I think we wanna make sure that there's not inequity where if you become a homeless right now in May. May, and you and it's not clear that it's a twelve month rolling as opposed to being impacted by July 1, you could potentially base have access to a longer period of time versus if you become homeless on July 1, you have then really, you're capped at the seventy days. Whereas if you've become homeless at the beginning, we've seen that inequity play out in how this has been interpreted in the past. And so we're trying to avoid that confusion going forward so that there can be predictability for people and consistency in application of the benefit.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. Go ahead, Nelly. Nelly Markel, senior adviser to

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: the commissioner. Additionally, we're looking to avoid once this once this bill goes into effect, we're looking to avoid a hard reset on 07/01, which would mean which would create confusion because everyone in the program would exit en masse and would have to reapply en masse. Okay.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Understood. Katie, you're I see your thinking. Oh, well, I

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: the word rolling was added upstairs to capture this idea, so I think the intent of I should never speak to their intent. But the conversation upstairs wasn't a July 1 start. With that said, to the extent that there's confusion, I think you could leave the language as is and just add a clause that says as calculated by, you know, the first date of the application to the Mhmm. Whatever. That is exactly

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: the same.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So do it. Do Do it. Okay. We need to move right ahead to case management services because that's gonna be another discussion. Have two more bills too. We're not there yet. Just asking. Just relax. We have to relax. And I'll let Nolan to be up at the head of the table. Dispute management services, the question has always been, I do have some flexibility in here for people to ask for reassignment.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. So that sentence was removed on one of the previous markups. Yeah. I know. I could add it back in as it was. I could add it back in in a modified way. If you're looking for a middle ground, you could say something like, say you may request, but there's not a guarantee of reassignment, something I like think that's

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a good idea. I may request case manager. Thumbs up.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. Needs assessment. This is the advice to the Department of Housing Community Development. Okay. I thought it was in C's. 22.15, this is your appeals right to fair hearing. So you have your notice, we've already talked about this today, what's in the notice. And B, this allows to file a request for a fair hearing in these circumstances one through three. And c, this is the sixty days, and I you made some changes here. Subsection d, the housewife files a request within fourteen days, they can continue to receive services unless one of these circumstances are met. New language that we're clear that we're referring to fair hearings as described in title three. Then you have your rulemaking section, addresses a number of items. Excuse me, new items are processed for reinstatement of services after termination. Annually sorry. Where am I? Reporting. Annual report.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'll take one comment from Amy who was not in the room earlier. I'm all making

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: Oh, I'm sorry.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Did you already talk about I don't know what you wanna talk about. Well, just wanted to note that BCAP has requested, I believe HHAV also has requested additional process named around rulemaking and not only a reference to the Administrative Procedures Act, which is a very limited rulemaking process. Okay, well, we'll just, we're, that's good, but we're bound by our Administrative Procedures Act. Kinda, I missed that.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: The comment. You don't like the cross reference to 3090.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So, of course, we want you to Wait follow till we get to, there's a section here on rulemaking. Is that what you're, that's where you're Oh, just I thought you were on the fair hearings. No, I'm on rulemaking. Okay. Yeah, we're done. We weren't there yet. Just not on reporting. Haven't started that yet. Yeah, here we come. We're definitely.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: We did go through rulemaking. Yeah. Early. We went through it earlier. Now you're on recording. Sorry. Which section? I'm confused.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I have comments on the rule making session. No, 20 two-sixteen. Okay. Which we have submitted as writing a few times, 20 two-sixteen. Yes, you are bound by the Administrative Procedures Act, and I have seen in statute before additional requirements for stakeholder involvement for public hearings to be held. We ask for clarity around accessibility.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: It's in It's

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: in middle, mommy. We've been through this, so let's keep going. I'm sorry, I was out. You're good, I know.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: It's okay. Okay, then we have reporting. This is an annual report. Those are all the items. Then on page 30, this is the merger of the continuums. Section six is grant requirements. This takes effect after the continuums have been merged or attempted to be merged. Section seven is your transition language. Again, this recognizes that not all elements of the program are going to take effect on July when the section takes effect, so this gives a runway that the various elements of the program will continue to come on board over the fiscal year. This section eight, Amy, I think is what you're Yep, looking my apologies. So we have the rule making. I mean, we spent a lot of time on this. Don't know

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: if you want me to be

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: able to you to look for some

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I like stakeholders. Hold on a second. We're allow a question. Thank you. We're

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. Deanna Hartog from Legal Aid. I just want to note

[Deanna Hartog (Vermont Legal Aid)]: that we have two concerns about that provision that is in blue.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: The first being, I know this is still in dispute, it's still disputed, but

[Deanna Hartog (Vermont Legal Aid)]: I just want to say for the record that the reference to the rules that were incorporated by reference is Our understanding is that those rules were not propagated in accordance with the APA, and so therefore there are no rules to incorporate. But even further concerns is that those rules are insufficient for running this program according to the bill. There's nothing in

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: those Understood. We're in an interim process. We have to deal with some set of rules. We don't have any rules, we're so gonna deal with the ones that we do have that were in LCAR, approved by LCAR. So that's all we can do. Then we're moving to emergency rules, will be different and will be more in tune with a continuum, and then we'll have permanent rules. So this is a transitional process, and we're not gonna be able to pin everything down, believe me. So I appreciate what you're saying, and I've been on rules a long time.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Just because as is on July 1, those rules will

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: not refer to anything here

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: about community providers. No. Okay. We understand how this goes. Get it. Okay. So I'll keep going. Yes.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: The section nine is an implementation, a status report coming back to you in February. And then we have the six zero two language that was referred to earlier. This is addressing the needs of households for domestic and sexual violence separately from the continuum. Next is the Vermont Rental Assistance Bridge Program. We made some changes here. So you'll see those reflected in the new draft. Payment rate structure for shelter services. Section 13, capped room rates. Mhmm. 14, expenditures. We've already gone through this a bit. I don't know if you wanna hear more from Nolan on this.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We will in about one minute.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay, I will happily do it. And then, you have a written report. You are removing the GA annual report. And then you have effective dates, which we haven't been through, it's worth just spending a So minute you have the effective date section, section eight, which is the adoption of permanent and emergency rules taking effect on passage. You have, except for section six, all remaining sections are taking effect July. Sections, that grant requirements piece that doesn't take effect until there's an attempt to merge the continuums. So those are your effects and dates. And

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: that's it. Good, thank you. Chad? Payment

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: rate, Chad Simmons, HHAV, the payment rate structure section was one of the areas that our members had some concerns about and had suggested language, some slight changes to that section. Can you point to a specific place? We'll spend one minute on it. Think what we would prefer to is just to clarify that this would be a report rather than dictating that we will go to a rate structure and that that the community partners and the department will work together on developing that report collaboratively.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: May establish a parent rate structure Or shall submit a report on? Well, getting a report. Nothing can happen with that rate structure until it goes through this building. And I see April 1 for me. April 1 is a little late.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: How about propose instead of establish? Yeah, propose. Propose work.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Yeah, and I think we'd also be open to moving that timeframe. I think this is a really significant potential change. Totally. And given the significant lift of other aspects of the bill, I think we'd prefer this upcoming year to focus on some of those. If this is gonna be kept in as a as a report, we'd even be happy if it was a year later to report.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We just I'm not keen on the year later piece, but I am keen on giving more time for it. I think you can have an interim report on April, and we could have a final report in the fall of twenty seventh. What does that do to your life? So

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: changing it so the objective that you're looking for is a report, we do an interim report and then a final report, which would inform the next year. Because if it's in

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: the fall, that gives time for a lot of work to be done, including joint fiscal looking at it or others, so you need to know what that is. There's a lot of budget stuff that goes on with it too. Okay, so if we have an interim report April and a final report. October 1? Yeah. I mean,

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: it's a lot, and I feel like we're, you know, appreciating your flexibility. November 1. Which one do like? I don't know that it matches.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: November. November's fine. Thank you so much for your

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It's how I keep my kids' choices. Do you wanna go to bed? I I appreciate it.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: It's an effective method.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: I appreciate your messaging.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Understand what you're saying, and I'm empathetic about we also need to have this get through the legislative process. We need Nolan for fifteen minutes.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Thank you. You're welcome. Did you also beat 17 and two ninety three? Can we wait and do that? You sure can. I'm leaving at eleven.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm at 11:30.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: No. I'm happy book it to eleven.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Another committee has Okay. So let's do eight. Nolan, are you okay? With won't hear anything. For you, I'm Thank you. Careful. She's on Okay. We're gonna look at 8 10 and 293. Into the community. My my suggestion to you post is to give space for people who need it in for those. And I She doesn't wanna get to me. No. No. I'm sorry. I don't want to be nice. Gonna leave. So here's

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: the new draft 2.1 of eight seventeen. First, this looks different than the last time you've seen it. First, have a new legislative intent section. It says that it is the intent of the general assembly that the Department of Health in collaboration with AHS shall oversee a mental health literacy training grant program to provide mental health literacy training to educators and other school personnel, and a peer to peer mental health program to support structured opportunities for student peer connection in a supervised school or after school setting to take effect on July. So those descriptions of the two programs were taken from the prior section one. In section two, you have language about funding as part of its fiscal year twenty eight budget presentation, DMH in collaboration with AOE. You know, was this supposed to be AOE? Yes, it was.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: DMH in collaboration with AOE shall explore potential funding sources for the mental health literacy and peer to peer program described in section one of this act, including whether any existing special funds are appropriate sources of funding and provide recommendations accordingly. Section three, inventory. On or before January 15, DMH, in collaboration with AOE, is to submit an inventory of existing mental health programming and services in schools to the policy committees. The inventory shall include a recommendation to integrate the mental health literacy and peer to peer programming described in section one of this act into the existing programming and services listed in the inventory required pursuant to this section. Effective date is 07/01/2026.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. I still the elder needs to be a parent of note with the change in the process. Well, then then we don't we don't have we're not doing a program here. We're just getting a report. Oh, just Yeah. Yeah.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: We're just

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: getting a report. And I'm fine.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: No. I'm good with it. Anyone

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: else? Okay. I'm good. Debatable. You got it. Oh, yeah. I see Ann, you have your hand up. Amy Schulick, Gulick, Alright. After school. I'm just wondering for the training literacy training if we would include after school personnel as well because educators and school personnel would not necessarily need that. Okay, Can we do that?

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Yes. In the legislative intent?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. Pertaining to educators And after school? Yeah. School and after school. Or Well, the school is there. I know, but after school is a separate It's not a program. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That makes a

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: lot of And after school staff. Is that right? Sure.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Well, do you mind if I make my assumption or snap? That's the appropriate program, El Paso. I'm getting there. Just looking. So, Jim. Jill Smith, Karen, for Mentor Vermont. So, Mentor Vermont does peer to peer programming in schools. Okay. Right now, they don't call it a mental health program, but they do a lot of peer to peer, so I think they can really inform a lot of this process. So I don't know if you wanted to I'm fine with that. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm fine with that. Can we put such as or? I'm not sure what the feedback is, to

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: be honest.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It's hard because we don't usually mention specific organizations. So we could say something about mentoring programs. Where? So some of the mentoring programs Where do you want this? Is

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: this part of a report or is this part of the legislation? I would make part of

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: the report of how they are

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: So, it's that collaboration with DMH and stakeholders. That makes sense.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. Claire.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: In in section one,

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: it it had Department of Health in there, which I think is us. Yeah. And I

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: I do think we would want, if possible, to

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: have AoE named in this section as well since we would be collaborating. We just changed that.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: We just She's there.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: She definitely did. Yeah. You have to cancel. Alright. We know. We don't we don't don't to know. We're going to be on the sword for a long time. So. Yeah. I can make the motion. Yep. Is it still draft 2.1? Yeah. Three point three point one. I know to pass favorably out of meeting the whole senate. Age eight seventeen draft 3.1.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: We do that with pending edits just because

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I think. Pending edits. Yeah. On May 8 what do you what the since And the draft's the same day. Right? Yeah. It's five eight.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Right.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's for Steve. Yeah. But it's the date of the vote. Yeah. There's some favorable with amendments. Ready, madam? Senator Benson? Yes.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Senator Cummings? Yes.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: Senator Gulick? Yes. Is that better?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's you no. You've been getting it perfect for a long time. Thank you. Senator Morley's. Yes. Yeah. Senator Lyons? Yes. We didn't suddenly do violence. Nothing. I just I voted for that several times. So is there someone who would like to report this? Yes. Okay. You want to go to Approach or Finance?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: No, I don't think there's any money. It's looking for money, but I think there's any money in there. Okay. It's like, though.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I might go, but it'll be a

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: quick trip. I might want to take a piss, but I'm saying there's no piss going.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. Should

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Katie, we also have 2 93, which it has just that one last section that we should look at, but the rest of it is what we've looked at.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Sure. This is 293. You looked at this yesterday. Is that yesterday? Or the day before. It is kind of. Climbed together. Were changes, just items that I bought yesterday, two of them. One was just the reader assistance heading for ALS disclosure requirements and reporting because the new reporting section was added and then struck.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: And I'm trying to remember the other. We went through the whole thing, and it was at the end, there was reporting on Something funding for recovery centers.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Did we make a Oh, I struck That's right. I struck this language. Right. Fiscal year In fiscal years '24 and '26, since it was up above. It had been in '3. So now that is removed. So those are the two changes since the last time you've seen this. So this is version 3.1. Do you want a refresher of what's in here?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Can't read that. Sure. That's you know, I don't need it. We we don't need it. We we went through it yesterday. And the Department of Health is interested in having that go forward. So, is there a bill that can accept the motion? I'll make the motion to pass favorably on the individual Senate draft 3.1 of H293. 2.1.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Oh, did I just say 3.1?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It says 3.1 on Then use that. Use that. I'm sorry. Page two ninety three. Hold on. Okay. So, 05/08/2026. Discussion, I know it's not a heavy lift on this bill, it's really good. A limit reports, modifying some reporting, and adding in some reporting to One of the things I think we have to do overall is to start looking at all the work we're doing on prevention and recovery and understand what all is out there and this has a little piece in it for that. Senator Benson?

[Senator John Benson]: Yes. Senator Cummings? Yes. Senator Gulick? Yes.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Senator Morley? Yes. Senator Lyons? Yes. How about recording this one? No. We have. Senator.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: Oh, She's on this.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: You know, there.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I I don't understand it. I used to be the only one that understands all these. Do. Let's just report. Just report. Alright. Senator Benson, would you like to report? Oh, I've already written a. Oh, okay. Good. Alright. Do you want, Vincent? I don't care. I can scribble them. No. I don't. I'm I'm

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I get some pretty gross with my board. So

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. Calm down, Benson. You need to redeem yourself. I'll get waiting to chat. Give up a really Okay. Get that. Okay. People had to leave the room to shake that off. So I was

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: with the with the frozen chicken. So

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: You did. That was good. Alright. Thank you all. I know that one that was just kind of like the department of health brought the bill in in the first place and then made the modifications.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: You got taken off.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: You're gone. You're gone ahead. Okay. So now we're going to go back to

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Would you like something?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: She won't. Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Michael, some struggles. Gary firefighters. Four dead kids Christmas Eve. All the wrong ones. And the fire alarm did go off. So their work was they wanted to know why that alarm didn't go off. Kids all died of smoking. You now have to have a photo of okay. Yeah. Well, to start you because Switch your roof. Is, like, two seconds more. It's more sensitive to smoke and heat, but it's the smoke that knocks you out, so you don't wake up when the alarm goes on. And that's that was theirs. Yeah. I had to go home with the cushions warning the jerks. Thank

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: you, Katie. Good. Thanks, Katie.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. Nolan. Bring it in. We have on yesterday's. She can say it's your. Yeah. We have your spreadsheet. You have a new one? Yeah. Yeah. Was a new spreadsheet.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Yeah. How hard you got to

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: A new spreadsheet. Oh, colors?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Same colors, but there's one new color.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: If you if you want them, you

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: same color. Different colors.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Same green face.

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: Yes.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Alright. Only difference on this sheet. That's And if you have your old sheet, you can write it in, or I have it sent plus the I will send it to her. Actually, I'm gonna send her right now. I have it all 500. I have I have cued up. I just gotta hit the send. Alright. I just sent it to her.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Thank you. So

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I didn't print a copy out because I didn't expect to talk to it today. But basically, the only changes are they're all highlighted black, like deeper blocks than that. So you can see sort of the nine thirty eight, it's a centralized proposal. It should say, you can see that the 975,120 is now 9.25. Right, so if you go across, can see the delta is now 500,000. So we took $500,000 out of the emergency housing, and we created a new category on the bottom, Community Resource Center, CBOEO, and add that 500 in the base GF. So you can see on the other side, it's up 500. So the bottom far right is still all All we did was take 500,000 from the base one time in emergency housing, hotels, and a community research center.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Senator Martine, is there a joke that I love? No. I know what he's left.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I don't if he's He's left color.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: No. No. No. So I think he

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: did with the location. Excellent. So This has been an orphan for many years. I know. We'll be into this. The

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: yeah.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Calista just posting this right now, so we don't it's hard for me to look at it.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Do I catch it? You pull it up? Or

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I don't know. Can you blow it up a little I can blow

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: it up, so I I apologize.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Pull out the other one.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Sorry that I don't have hard stuff. Here.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Somebody got it. Oh, hello. So I know what happened.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: Wait. All you've done

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: is you've added a square

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: all the way across. And you do what? Saw it by. I wonder. He's

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: But the 500,000 we did I thought we were taking out a motel motel.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Yeah. That's hotel

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: motel. That is out.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: That's what

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: hotel motel. Yeah.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. I know. And that's a problem for some people, and it'll you know? But we need the money from somewhere. We could nickel and dime, we could take a little bit out of each of the different rows. I'm sure the house will pass off you can see.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: That's why I can see a lot of something.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: This was a recommendation to have given you to patients. So that's

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: the only change in the appropriation that you've made in this version. You can see, the bottom lines are still the same.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: So that'll reflect in language as it go.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: It is reflected in the language of committee.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay, committee. Given the time that we've had to spend on looking at the need within each level, after hearing from Brett Wood on the work that they've done with the funding piece, I'm happy with leaving their funding more or less intact, with the exception of a hotel motel. And then I think they'll be okay with it. Let's see how that's going.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: So to that point, you heard Lily talk about how that 17 less rooms, and we took it off the 700. Right. Okay.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. Brenda.

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: I'm just wondering if that could come from a different place because 17 rooms is potentially 68 people with its family with children. And so that's a lot of rooms, beds that people lose potentially and have to sleep outside each night. So the number totals a lot.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So the question is that's believe me, it's something that I've been thinking about as well. So I'm going to ask the committee just to look briefly at, we have a few minutes here. Why don't we go down the list of what's available within, as pets by the house? We've obviously taken it out of hotel motel. Part of what the resource center does is help me in those rooms, right? Yeah. We're giving them no. No. They do everything. Some of us are more familiar with them than others. But they don't have beds. Yeah. No. They don't have beds. They're where you get into the system, and they can refer you. But if you take this out and there are 68 less beds for them They won't be referring so much. They won't be referring as much. I understand Chittenden County has the bulk of the

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Madam Chair, another suggestion, and this is gonna be hate this. You could not take it all out of one place.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That was my suggestion.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Spread it out. So maybe take two fifty out of emergency housing. You take some out of HOPGRANCE. You take a little bit out of rental. I'm just throwing out

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: And you have a whole bunch of houses.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I'm just saying if you don't, you know, if you wanna, like, sort of

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Emergency housing's already being cut, guess, from current. So scary to think of kind of you wanna Let me see what

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: So you're

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: trying to

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: the Community Resource Center is a daytime resource center, so there's a place for people to go. And so it's under CDOEO, which also has a nighttime 100 bed triage center. It's a daytime center, nighttime center, and then they have other services that support services. So this is what we have on our webpage from Paul Draggen yesterday. And then also testimony. So we're not saying that the resource center is simply a place to direct traffic. It's not Also, more than

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: you look at the old sheet, you can see in the gov rec, the House version is 1,300,000 more in base GF than the gov rec, and 2,300,000 more Wait, total

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: sorry, can you say that again?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: So the governor had even less money for emergency housing. He had 21.5, he had 8.45, and the house put it up to 9.7. So even with this production here, you're still you're still above what the government recommendation was. So that's another percussion. Could we could we

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: get rid of the other expenses and and move that into it?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: The other expenses, and I'm gonna defer to the BCFA, they're it it it's it had a purpose, and most of those are

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: It was different than the house version, as I recall.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: You had you you ended up having the governor's recommend, which was was one thing, and then you had the house version doing something else.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Well, I'll see. And the other expense

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: was I just this. Called So so

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: it's also federal funds on this version.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. That's the problem.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Because you have a lot less flexibilities to move those federal funds. And when the Senate when the House moved it over, they did their due diligence to make sure that those federal funds could be used for it. Right?

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Yeah. Under, Lily Sojourn, director of African Economic Opportunity, under the house proposed of other, that is federal funds that

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Yep.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: Not not any the administration. Administrations was all based general fund.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Right. So I guess that's a question of which are you looking at because then in the house version, they moved that general fund to other things.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Either way, you're gonna have general fund impact. Because you can't if you take that away, you either wanna give the other expenses for more general fund, and then you're losing the federal funds unless you find another federal funds.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. So you Sounds like I wouldn't You're either gonna stick with what you got there or you're gonna, like, hit everybody

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: or you're gonna deal with it

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So the You're gonna deal with it sometimes. Yeah. Or for the proposal amendment. Speaker? So, if we look at, yes, emergency, if we look at hotels and motels, governance recommend was

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: The base GF was 8.4.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: And the base was 8,000,000.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: This is still 1,300,000, so you take that 500 out, it's still Still over. Not 800,000 more. Yeah. But again, this is your decision about crimes.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Right. We'll go to Beverly Bogut. Hi, Beverly Bogut from the Vermont Early Childhood Advocacy Alliance. I'd love to say two quick things. One, I really support your looking for funding for the CBOE of gay shelter, and two, at the same time I want to recognize, as you make the consideration of where the cut comes from, just to recognize that, to support what Brenda was sort of saying, that the general assistance on emergency housing money, the comparison isn't necessarily the gov rack to this number, but from what last year's funding was to this. And last year's funding was something in the neighborhood of 38,500,000 to $39,000,000 depending on what's included in that number, just for GA and Virginia So Ginny that's the comparison of the cut, the magnitude of the cut as you make your consideration. Conditional cut. Yeah, got it. Okay. So let's go right down the list then.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Assuming you wanna do this

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Shelter development's already been decreased by now.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: We've got op grants. You've got shelter developments. You've emergency housing. You have eligibility staffing. You have case management, permanent and supportive housing, rental assistance. Or you take it on a one time, but then you're only making a one time preparation No, in CPO,

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: we need to keep it in pace. What are the consequences of taking the house has reduced hop already.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Reduced hop by 1.8 base GF, so 2.2 total. I guess I would ask Lily what's the impact of taking some lay on

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a hop, What would that do? Would take, let me just say this, we could take two fifty out of Hop and two fifty out of Motels, just to look at it a different way. Probably take 500,000 out of Hop. But you've already reduced it to 1.8? Yeah. You've already reduced it 1.8. With the hot grants? Yeah. Yeah. That's already that's already happened, but I'm asking Lily.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Sure. So I think, you know, again, in our governor's recommended budget, it accounted for maintaining a level of service that currently exists as well as investment to shelters that we know are coming online next year and that we've already invested startup funds. So that includes shelters with Upper Valley Haven Groundworks, Brock Community Action in Rutland, just to name a few, as well as investments in some of the specialized shelters called out in this bill. Right? So that includes where we had money for the additional shelter for those who are medically vulnerable as well as recovery oriented shelters. So if it was to be reduced, we would either not be able to invest in those new types of shelters that the bill identified or were taking away from providers that are kind of currently providing services or, again, shelters that were expected to become online. I think Northeast Regional Community Action, they're another one. They have a expansion coming online in the middle of this year. So that's sort of and our governor's recommended what we had planned for in that line item.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Understood. Okay. I hear there are no good solutions.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm there. I'm serious now. Well, that's why we print money downstairs. No. No one would ever take me up in the office to buy a printer either. So I'm thinking that with the $500,000 out of the hotel motel, hotel motel is still higher than Governor's direct matter. Some people like that and some people don't. But the governor's always been stingy. I know. I know. But the goal of the work we're doing is to reduce dependence on I hear you. Well. And I've said it multiple times. Burlington happened to make $8,000,000 last year. Mhmm. So it's going to come out of a municipal budget. You know. But it's coming out of everyone's municipal. No I get that. But some to a higher extent than others. And we Per capita basis? I don't know. We don't wanna if you I mean, the house has added in municipal grants of $500,000. Not really interested in reducing that. There's no good way to do this. No. Chad.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: Hi, Chad. Can see HIV. I think the top line for us is there's more money needed to be able provide the services and understanding that we're gonna stick within the governor's recommend. We would prefer the dollar go back into communities. So if the community would be open to looking at it and we support the CRC efforts, we think that's a really important resource to continue funding. But we're, I think what we, if we have to look at something, we're looking at the eligibility staffing. In which? The eligibility staffing. We would prefer dollars go into communities and provide resources for the people in need and the providers who

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: are needing those. Just one

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: of the reasons why our membership has questions around the strict eligibility sessions. So, I'm confused. What are you asking for, Chittenden?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Eligibility staffing on the one, two, three, four, it's lying down, and taking Take the money out

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: of Chittenden. So they already cut it by half?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It's already been cut in half.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: It was already cut by half, but I'm not there. It's in case, like with the idea of putting it into the community, which I've said, that's why the community grants, I would say if you cut it further, I think you would definitely need to hear from DCF about what that means.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, I agree with that. Also a problem about us taking people out of the wombones. Well, we're not necessarily kicking them out. It's just that we don't have those spaces available for the coming year. I mean, it's not like we're holding hotel rooms right now. So how many positions is the eligibility staffing? What are we contemplating? Does anyone know? And are they spread out all over the state?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I'm a different GCF on that.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Brandon, do you have an option to answer?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: I'm sorry.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: I was distracted, you

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: said Or

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: it is.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: I mean, I'm just trying to find out. It includes part of that work is contracted out. So it includes support for that contract, which is the function of right. If if people call, there's someone to talk to and go to No. Virginia. It's yeah. Thank you. I was gonna say RCA. Think that's the old

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: That's a perfect commercialist.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: RCA. So, you know, again, it's the function of if you don't have someone there to determine elderly like, people then can't access the resource. Right? So I think it's adequately staffing that system to avoid things that we've heard from constituents is really problematic, like lengthy wait times. And get through. You know, the ability to, again, talk to folks as these new rules and systems are coming online. I mean, I think this is where whether this stays with the state or stays with the community, you can't undermine the importance of having folks there to walk people through the system, determine if they're eligibility Determined. If they're eligible so that they can access whatever the services that that we're trying to provide. And, again, that's already been been cut significantly.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: 2,100,000.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Just because I haven't

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: You know, I I mean, again, we these are hard discussions, and we have them internally as well when when we then have to come up with our governance racket. That's just you can just So Yeah. Our motivation there and just help explain any of the other line items. That's helpful.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So I do wanna point something out that the money that's been taken out of eligibility by the house is actually added in. It's one time. No. It's the same. They're all the same. There's more one time money than there is base. So if we take base funding out of that, then I mean, that that could be problematic. We can't put one time money into base. So that's our problem. We can't reduce one time money and then say it's based on

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: the So

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: that's why when you look at this, that's why I look at the hotel motel and say, that's where the money is, you know, when you go to rob a bank. And so That's right. I haven't heard that one yet. This will be

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: I mean, trying to

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: trying to optimistic. How many I mean, we're developing these shelters. So is there a chance that some of the folks who would have been in the hotels or hotels will now be in shelters? And if so, like, how many?

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: Also, is 500,000 the right number?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Think it should be higher, honestly. I think it's about 650,000.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: That's why I went to the

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I saw 500 is a low number. So why didn't it make it in the house? Because the house didn't have the same concern. We don't have to do everything the house does. It's true. We're the same. Amy, did you wanna comment or? I'm waiting for Paul to text me back. Amy Schallberger, working cap. So, I think it's worth saying first, there's not enough money in bonds. That's the problem. Whatever you fund, you're going to be taking money away from something else. So, I think that's a policy decision that the committee needs to make. We really appreciate that the committee is considering base funding for the CRC. I do want to just remind you that the big bill has one time money allocated. 250. Well, the Senate had 234,500. Although that's not ideal, I think you could House had a higher one time amount of four sixty nine. I think you could consider splitting two fifty, two fifty, two fifty from DMH as one time funding, and then you would only need to Are you talking about the big bill now? Yes. The big bill. Okay. That's not a conversation in this room. Okay. I was just trying not a conversation in this room. What we're talking about is how to fund the CRC based on the money that we have. We're robbing Peter to pay Paul. We all know that. And we know that there I believe that we can do it with hotel motel, also understanding that come next year there's going to be a BAA. And shelters are going to be built. I don't want to do any of that.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: You have five minutes.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: No. We don't. We have two minutes.

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: We have two minutes.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm fine with what you have presented there. Don't know what it is. Yeah. I say send it to the house and we'll get out. Yep. Okay. And to And the budget will become a part of it.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont - HHAV)]: That's why I have a conference.

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm not alone. People shall sleep in my yard. Alright. So we're good on Tuesday. Committee procedurally, we're gonna go live and just talk about our process a little bit. So we're not focused on this

[Nolan Langweil, Joint Fiscal Office]: today?

[Senator Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: No. No. What we're

[Katie McLinn, Legislative Counsel]: going