Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: You're alive. All right, good morning. It is May 8, and this is the Senate Health and Welfare Committee. We are looking at H938, and our goal here is to have some final markup for the bill, and then I'm thinking that we'll look at the final draft early in the week, next week, and vote on it, and that includes the language as well as the money, And then we'll be voting on it, either come in at 09:00 on Tuesday or 09:00 on Wednesday. So we'll be doing that. We won't be making changes when we vote, it's just gonna be going through and voting. So that's next week. So today, let's look at the draft that Ginny has for us. And there are lots of things in here. I think based on the testimony that we heard yesterday and others that we've had, I've heard things like we need flexibility in the system, we need to make sure that people have the access they need, and then Reverend Wood also gave her vision for why the bill was written and drafted as a lot of stuff. Keep those things in mind, I think, go ahead. Okay. Good morning. Would anyone mind moving the day? Because I Get rid of it. I'm

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: going to.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It's just our infancy table. Okay. Alright. And this is on our webpage. I think so.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Katie McDonough, so we have draft 3.1. We jumped right over looking at 2.1 yesterday. So, the changes from two point one and three point one are all highlighted in blue. And so that is what we're looking at today. We'll cover the changes that we didn't look at yesterday. Okay, good. So I think we can scroll quite far before we have any

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Let's look at the changes and then we'll go back through the whole. Okay.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Where are we? Okay, we're in 2202. This is the establishment of the continuum and there's a new subsection B that all funding opportunities available under the program shall be open to any entity or community partner, including those that did not previously receive funding. Okay. For permanent supportive housing, OEO and its community partners, changing this lead in to the Agency of Human Services departments or their community partners.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: And

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: then, pulling language that had been in, when permanent supportive housing was in levels, there was language that didn't get moved down to this section. So this is pulling language that had been in the bill when it was, when permanent supportive housing was level four, and now it's in this new section

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: of the bill on permanent supportive housing. So, that's really technically looking at

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, it got dropped. Yeah. So, permanent supportive housing services may be utilized by an eligible household for as long as the eligible household's plan indicates it is necessary. I missed one. Oh, this was the in lieu of, remember? We had like the,

[Susan Aronoff (Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council)]: oh, the 2B in lieu of, and

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: it felt awkward. So this is, take two or three. Emergency housing provided through the program is not intended to take the place of any other AHS time limited permanent housing. That's good. Okay. This is our section on notice of heels right to a fair hearing, and there, if you remember, we took three subsections out of the last time we looked at it, and this is adding a new subsection in that says, Fear hearings held pursuant to this section shall be conducted in accordance with three VSA three thousand ninety and three thousand ninety one, which is the Human Services Board language. I'm not sure if it's necessary, it feels to me a little duplicative of, they may file a request for a fair hearing with the Human Services Board pursuant to three BSA 3,091. I think it's already clear that the Human Services Board processes are being filled, but this is definitely bills and suspenders. It pulls in 3,090, and it makes clear that all aspects of the hearing are in accordance with those two sections. I wanted to stop here for

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a minute because I know I received some information that would make the first part a concern. So, Brendan, I'm looking at you, do you have that?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Yes, thank you, Brendan Atwood, the Agency of Human Services. So, our concern with the notification section is really about the thirty day notification. In many cases, in fact, over half participants are not allotted a a time period more than thirty days. So, it'd be infeasible for us to meet that requirement. We feel that the notification processes in place already are sufficient. We give, upon application, notice of the duration for the stay, information on how folks can appeal, all of that. And so we think that that's unnecessary, but our biggest concern is really that it's not feasible to provide that We've notice in

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: discussed that before, haven't we, too?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: I think we have, yeah.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, we brought it up. I don't think we've ever really fully discussed this, so that would be on what page? Is page 25, line 10. So,

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: you have language that the office or community partners provide written notice when the applicant or participant is denied, reduced, suspended, or terminated from services, notice shall include first, the actual legal basis of the decision. Second, that's what is being referred to, the effective date of the action, which in the case of termination, reduction, or suspension, shall not be earlier than thirty days after the date of the notice in the household's preferred method of communication, which was also raised.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So the issue with the thirty days, Brendan, is?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Individuals may not even have a stay that exceeds thirty days, so giving them a thirty day notice if they only have, say, seven days or fourteen days is not possible. So we think that the existing notification process would work.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: What about just saying adequate notice?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: I think that's great.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I see your hand is up. I have another idea. Is your idea? Thank you. Brenda Siegel at Homelessness Vermont.

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: What if it said thirty days or if less than thirty days, the period of time applicable under the current voucher?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: How do we measure all of that? Does that work? Cuddle. What are your thoughts?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: I think that adequate is more workable for us. Noting that we're going to go through rulemaking, we're going to be back before several committees, if that notification is not up to par, we'll have opportunities to

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: address. I'm kind of feeling that way as well at this point. We can do that. I know there's disagreement about that, but let's go with that.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Madam Chair, I may, there's just one other comment about allowing for the notice to be given at the household's preferred manner of communication. We're limited in what types of communication we can provide, written communication, emails. We can't be doing text messages or many other potential requested modes of communication, so we would request that that be modified as well.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: How would we do that?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: We could say in writing, telephonic. I mean, I think we can limit the the options from which an individual can choose based on what we can do.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: But We need to can't deliver it in person. Right. Know where they are.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: First class mail, text message. Those are those are not gonna be options for us.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I can work with that later. That would be great. So preferred

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: method of communication

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: from among the following options. Sure. So what are the options? It's telephone, email.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: We can do you know if it'll if not, we could follow-up. Yeah. Mail. Yeah. No. Sure. Now The fair earrings. Why do we have the word fair in the end?

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, that's in a stash toilet.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It is. That's that's a

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: worries. Okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Not fair. Okay. No.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: I just thought it was fair. I just was surprised it said that.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Did you say you didn't wanna be fair?

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: I had to love being fair. Thought I also like to just have a hearing. Know, just just imply.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Nellie Marble, Senior Advisor to Commissioner Department for Children and Families. The department's preference would be either email or US mail. Our current practice is we email them their notice of eligibility and then failing that they can go pick it up at a local district office. And then as a as a method of last resort, if we have a mailing address on file for them, we can Okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Mail it to them. That's what I'm gonna leave it in capable hands for if they need to wordsmith this because I think she got it. Most of

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: But her I had heard one one person say telephone and somebody else say not telephone, so now I'm not clear.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Tele- I think tele- writing- is an appropriate-

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Telephone is appropriate. And

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: so, and if it works,

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: it works. Yes, ma'am. If ever come from a legal aid, we would say that the notice has to be in writing, either in an email or in physical writing in order to comply with due process.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So that's why people don't want telephone. Telephone. It's physical. Yeah. Okay. Does that make sense?

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: Brenda, Okay. See Gulick, Elvis, it's Vermont. The only thing that I would add is that if people can't read or write, which 10% of the people we research couldn't, there has to be some method for explaining that to them.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Well, that'll come out in the rules. We can't micromanage everything in here. I know that there are other places in this building that do micromanage. You got it? You got it. Thank you. Okay, so that's good. I'm glad we stopped at that little place. That's all. Okay.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: We

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: got a fair hearing.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Now we're in our rulemaking section, and that's kind of met. You wanted to add a process for reinstatement of services after a household's termination from the program as one of the items on rulemaking. So, that has been added.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Yes. Madam Chair, if it's appropriate, I think our concerns on this section just relate to the timeline, so we can address that now or earlier. Okay,

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: oh, I know the dates.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: We Yeah. Hold on then until we get to the playmaking section because this is just the context Got it, of the yeah. Sorry, thank you. Thank you. Which might be the next thing we do. It is, okay, here we go. So, since we've last looked at it, there was a concern about the emergency rules being due 07/01/2026. So, now this language has them due 08/15/2026, and then there is this new Subdivision A2. This is between July 1 and August 14. DCF is to administer the continuum by applying the general assistance emergency housing rules approved by LCAR on March 13 for the administration of this Act, meaning what the rules that are currently, the program is currently operating under.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, it's too important to have some rules.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: And then subdivision, there's a one added because we're adding a two, that prior to filing the permanent rule of the Secretary of State, I think that should be 838A too, let me double check that. The Department shall work in collaboration with stakeholders to develop the rule, including holding at least five regional stakeholder hearings throughout the state, and by January 1, submit draft rules to the two policy committees for review and consideration of committee's comments. That's it. Did we say January 1? January 1 is when draft rules would be submitted for

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: comment.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: My turn?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Okay. Brenda, I'm with with AHS. So, we appreciate these amendments and, you know, in particular, the stakeholder engagement is something that we think is important and we're happy to oblige doing all of that before January while still having to do a person e rule and draft what's gonna be a pretty substantial rule is is gonna be very difficult to meet that time frame. So we'd like to extend the time we have to do that draft, but still need the ultimate deadline for the permanent removal that's in the bill right now. So hoping for some flexibility there.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Where do you want it to be?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: So what we proposed is the e rule by October 1, which would just give us enough time. The e rule is gonna be a substantial rulemaking itself.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: August 15 was the day I picked, because we really want this to move along. But we'll keep going and we'll talk about it.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: So August seems ambitious. I think maybe September is achievable for us.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay, we'll negotiate September. Do I?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: But on October 15?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I know. So, let's make it September 10. The reason I say that is September 1 is difficult.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: No. That's great. Then

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I think

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: the draft is being completed, but we would propose this by July 2027. Oh. Again, to allow that stakeholder engagement time and still have several months for the committees of jurisdiction and others to comment on this before we move.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh, instead of January?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Correct.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Which date? So you're changing January 1 to submit a draft rule?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: E rule in September, draft rules in July '7, final rules by October '27, consistent with what's in the bill now.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So what you're skipping over is allowing for this committee and the House Human Services a review of the rules. So is there a date earlier Yes,

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: that

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: we could put in there? January, I understand.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Would that be for March?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm getting this now. Yeah, think one of those would be good.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: I think if we could, obviously later is better to allow for the necessary stakeholder outreach. I think April 15 seems like a reasonable middle ground.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: That sound

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: April 1? I have no idea what day of the week these things are. We're gonna have to check.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Well, we'll get it to you before those dates, if it's

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: on a weekend. Sounds good.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: What did we say?

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: I hope you were in March. They were in April. If you're in April? We're in April.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: April 1?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: April 1.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Let's go

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: with it.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: April fool's

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: day. How

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: up and delicious.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: And, again, we don't know what day of the week until would be Sunday.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: And we'll get it ahead of time for sure.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: That timing might work well, because you're through crossover, but before the end

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: of the session. That's just a good point.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: So, you might have a lull with bench to

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: do this. We are definitely going to slow down process, right? We're all over the world. Okay. Depends on who's sitting here.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: The

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: light key moving? Are we done with the rule? Yes, we are. Okay. Okay, so now we are in the section on the Vermont Rental Assistance Bridge Program. There had been a sentence in subsection D about individualized plans and the sentence from the house version is being added here, restored here. Program priority shall be given to recipients of the home program established pursuant to entitled PIN who has not reached twenty four months of rental assistance.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Go ahead. For the

[Susan Aronoff (Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council)]: record, Susan Aronoff from the Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council. This committee was one of the committees that received the Road Home Report. I submitted comments that gives you a hot link to the Road Home Report. The Road Home Report was required by the legislature last year to answer the key question of how are we going to develop housing for 600 adults with developmental disabilities who currently forty percent are living in adult foster care, unstable, forty percent are living with family caregivers, many of whom are aging. The legislature has identified I get it.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So we're asking one Our

[Susan Aronoff (Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council)]: ask is three words. Right now the rental assistance would be limited to only people who are unhoused, and we understand that that is this target of this bill however our folks think people in wheelchairs who need

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We don't want to exclude these folks. Yes and

[Susan Aronoff (Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council)]: we don't want to exclude people in corrections so this is supposed to serve everyone in AHS so we just want to add to the last line of C, where the priority is people exiting homelessness, we just want to add, comma, institutionalized, that would folks in nursing homes, people in care, or risk group, at risk of institutionalization. And I would just say, Agency of Human Services is already serving these people, and in order to move them into housing, they need rental assistance.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Got it. Thank you. Does that fit here?

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: So I think you might be referring to an earlier version of the draft with your, see, I saw your memo and it didn't fit in where

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: it fits in. The last 36

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: lines two through five. A great length of assistance on the section and institutionalization. I think maybe one.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: The program shall be accessible.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Sorry, go ahead.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I think maybe we're the E line. Yes. So, this is an this is an older draft. Oh,

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: three by one. You didn't want it.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. One. C one. Don't He wants C one.

[Susan Aronoff (Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council)]: Well, perhaps, that's where the fun would come from, but the very last line is where it says, the priority shall be. And that

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: controls every That's not gonna gonna be the 36. That's right.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Very, you were right

[Susan Aronoff (Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council)]: there that very last With priority given to those exiting homelessness, comma,

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: what, you were right there. Are you saying E? Yes, E. Okay. Yeah. E in

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Florida, Illinois, Texas. Homelessness, comma, Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Is that what the

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: committee wants to add? Uh-oh.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: No. That would be

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: our case. We we really

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: appreciate Susan's comments, and I think people did work really hard on that really robust report. I think what's we're running into is two things that had very different intentions and goals. Mhmm. And I think that we put forward a very clear proposal with the governor's recommended budget to address homelessness and to kind of grow what AHS was providing in terms of rental assistance for people experiencing homelessness. The house proposal included this broader scope, which to us feels like, I think, premature to have under the same umbrella at this time. So, yeah, I hear what you're saying

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: and I had thought about that. So we're not trying, what we're not saying, we're not saying that the continuum program is responsible for folks who are institutionalized or at risk of institutionalization. What we're saying is that the home program is not only for those who are homeless. I don't know how to say that right here in this, because if you read this, it says that the home program is only for this cohort. Because

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: I think that for the rental assistance, I mean, is the budget that we have where we have, we're leveraging Vermont rental assist Vermont rental subsidy, which is a subsidy for families on reach up experiencing homelessness, and then rental vouchers to help support those really in supportive housing to make sure we can actually have a supportive housing model of the services and the housing. I think what what we've proposed, because, like, our colleagues at DMH have some support services for people exiting institutions, is that I think we're very committed to working with Vermont State Housing Authority to see how to develop in this area. I think we're not yet sure that this is the bill to address populations other than those who are exiting homelessness, and that it might be more appropriate to do this study and then have

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: that I understand addressed exactly what you're saying here, what you're saying, and I agree with you. The issue is by putting this specific language in, we are excluding others within that discussion and program. So there has to be a way of saying that folks who haven't used their twenty four months of parental assistance will have priority and somehow that this isn't the entire program, that there are others who will be served by the program. I don't know how to say that. So the program shall be accessible to eligible households served by each of the agency departments, we know that, exiting homelessness I wonder if I will not be to the exclusion of Well. Of other groups eligible eligible groups. Somehow we have to say that. And I know you're you're I understand what you're saying. But

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: Because I think leaving it as is puts a financial pressure to expand Without funding that has been allocated for that We're not taking any

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: funding away from what's appropriated in the bill.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: But you're expanding who would be eligible for that bill.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We are not expanding who's eligible within the bill. We are saying is people who are outside of the bill will not be excluded the from the programs. That's what we're saying.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Madam Chair, so part of what we're looking for is frankly the time to do our due diligence to understand what this program would look like, what the impacts would be across the agency. So maybe if we had some language that included were other individuals, populations as identified by the agency and the state housing authority, what we're really contemplating here is a process over the next year to build what this program looks like. So I think having that flexibility makes sense. But making sure that in FY 2017 these funds are used for these folks who are exiting homelessness until we've had the ability to do that due diligence and broaden the scope, we think makes

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: sense.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So that's exactly what you're saying. You're saying you're giving priority to folks who are homeless, where there are other folks who've been working on this for a long time who shouldn't be excluded. Right. Just to be clear,

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: just for FY '27, we're contemplating here as a process to expand this and then going forward the program would look, well, it would be more expansive following this work, which would not be ready for FY '27. And I

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: have to disagree with this.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Fair enough. But if we had language that allowed for additional flexibility as determined by the agency and state housing authority, I think that still allows you to serve these additional populations in a way that doesn't

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: just want to make sure Of we course. Right, understood. I got it. I think we're all on the same page, so figuring out how Katie's going say it.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: So, there's been three proposals, and I've written them all down. So, you have being specific, institutionalization, or at risk of incorporating in some way that we shall not exclude, shall not be to the exclusion, this priority group shall not be for the exclusion of other eligible populations or something along the lines of other populations identified by AHS and the

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: state housing authority. Do you have a preference of how to address this? A second one. Okay. Amy, did you want

[Amy Johnson (Vermont Care Partners)]: to comment? I was just gonna add that Amy Johnson, Vermont Care Partners, this language isn't important because this is an Olmstead issue, and so it needs to be in there for that reason.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yes, back to 'forty eight. Yeah, so we got it. Okay. And it is part of the agency's, you know, the departments in the agency have folks who might benefit, so we want to make sure they're capturing the loyalty.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Okay. We'll keep moving. Oh, okay, so here are our expenditures. In Subdivision 3 under housing and hotels and motels, this appropriation has been reduced by 500,000, And then you have a new item of $500,000 for the Community Resource Center, which is coming from base GF funding. Should I wait on that? So

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: these are the

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: what do you need? I'm looking at that board. Oh.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh, she needs a plug in. I got you. Oh, okay. But it's not turned on. That's nice.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Good. That's thank you. That

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: would be devastating. Nobody wants to. Should I move on from this one? Yes, please. Okay.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Also in this expenditure section, there's a new subsection D that on or before 10/01/2026, 01/01/2027, and 04/01/2027, the office is to submit a written report to the appropriations and policy committees describing how funds referenced in A have been utilized to date, including whether expended funds were one time or based GF federal funds or global commitment funds. I think that's it. Yeah.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. We should look at All right, so now we can go back to the beginning, after Lily.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: Thank you so much. And I'm not sure if I introduced myself. Lily's a director of Economic Opportunity. So just on page 38.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Is it in any of the blue writing? Yes. It's the two things in the blue

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: writing. Wait. Page 38. I'm not

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: So

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: the the first one, painting the nine To to make that reduction, I just wanted to note that that corresponds with a reduction in motels Mhmm. For about 17 households, and that number has not changed in the previous sections. And so just identifying that

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Uh-oh.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: If this is the budget that you'd like to pursue

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: That we then like the reduction of the rate in order to apply with the budget. Okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So I believe that would be on page 16. Page 16 of this bill. Yeah. I can go back. John, you got This is the 1,000? This is sky.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: Oh, the 7 it's the 700. Guide.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. So

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: It's like leopard zone. We're gonna go through. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: This helps Katie a lot. Thank you. So, yeah, so just just if that's the the budget, then that would need to be reduced by 17. Okay. Okay.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: It's the So the 700 rooms is calculated as a member when you did the math or is like 17 rooms really the best? I'm trying to understand why you would go down to six seventy three or six eighty three, right? If you're at the 700, very specific. So what happens if you leave the 700 rooms, and you're saying that We're over by. We're over that. So I'm saying that so that so when you calculated my point is when you calculated that number, you assume 700 rooms. The original number? Yeah. Yes. Okay. That's all I'm trying to Okay.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Sorry. I wasn't articulating well. I didn't see my teeth.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I think

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: the lack

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: of This is office. Office.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: I wasn't sure how complex your.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: It was very, very

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: complex. Sorry.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Why don't I strip it from the rack? I

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: did not hear any of that. Confirming. Okay, so let's do this together, now we're all in a row. Let's go back to page one and we'll go through the bill and if there are significant places, I know I have one, and then we'll stop. I mean, we've been through it a couple times. We know that there are issues in here and everybody wants to make huge changes. But let's look at the things that are discrete. See what would you do. And that was for it to me too. Alright. Okay. So, you have a findings

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: section. First, General Assembly finds that although an imperfect tool for measuring the true number of uncapped sperm monitors

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's getting hang on a second. All I can hear is flapping. I feel like I'm at a hospital.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I'll start over. The General Assembly finds that although an imperfect tool for measuring the true number of unhoused Vermonters, the Vermont Homeless Management Information System, as in December 25, indicated that there were 4,022 individuals who are homeless in the state, eight sixty three of whom are children 18 years of age. In 2024, Vermont Housing Health Assessment notes that of the 36,000 primary homes needed in Vermont between 2025 and '29, the number needed to address homelessness is 3,295. May we have our legislative intent section? Okay, I'm gonna

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: go ahead. Go ahead, Strawna.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: It is the intent of the general assembly that unsheltered homelessness be eliminated and that homelessness in Vermont be rare, brief, and non recurring. That Vermont reduce reliance on the inefficient use of hotel and motel rooms for emergency housing. That utilization of an emergency housing benefit to access hotels and motels through the general assistance program end and be replaced by a continuum of services, and a continuum of supports and services be available to provide stable pathway to permanent housing that meets the specific needs of households experiencing homelessness.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm wondering, based on the testimony that we've heard yesterday from organizations, the shelters and the folks who are actually implementing this program. If we should say something about this is for the committee to think about. If we should say something, number five, about allowing for I'm worried about the flexibility piece so that there's some flexibility within the continuum that does two things. One, it facilitates the work of the organizations that are providing services housing or shelter. And two, that as a result offers a pathway to exit homelessness. So that's the intent. I think we need to say something about the organizations that are doing the work and then also about the goal of exiting homelessness as part of the intent. I know it may be under the purpose, but does that make sense to you as intent? Do you want to add a number five? We do. Okay.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: So, and I think I heard you say is you want some type of language that would allow for the flexibility within the continuum

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: To ensure Well, to ensure community

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: are given some type of flexibility and to create

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a pathway to homelessness. Is that what you're trying to say? For participants, yes. Okay, but

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: you are also wanting the flexibility to be for the benefit of community partners. Yes. Okay, I'll try to figure out how to say that.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That came through clear yesterday.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Purpose, it is the purpose of this act to establish a continuum of supports and services for households who are experiencing homelessness or who are at risk of experiencing homelessness, to ensure that tailored temporary emergency housing assistance is available to promoters in a manner that encourages efficient and accountable use of taxpayer funds, that support self sufficiency and reduces returns to homelessness by developing personalized housing plans that require participation by households. Top of page three, establish clear eligibility criteria and require active household participation. Five, expand the use of alternative emergency housing models in partnership with municipalities, nonprofit community based providers, and private landlords. Integrate supportive services to assist households to achieve permanent housing stability, establish transparent accountability measures, reporting requirements and oversight mechanisms, increase program efficiency and promote maximum flexibility in administering services and supports in the continuum, empower local communities to administer emergency housing services with maximum flexibility? Yes. And create diversified system of emergency housing options, including shelters, specialized shelters, shared housing arrangements, post home models, master lease units, and rapid rehousing placements that provide cost effective, sustainable, and supportive outcomes to households.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Definitions.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Thank you. I'm good with that, I think. I don't know necessarily that we have to read through all of the definitions. I know there's one that the agency is concerned about and it's probably something we will stop at at some point. And I think it's right here on 17. So this one is disability and I think what we have learned and we've used this term in the bill within this bill and within this program. It's not meant to be linked with SSI. It's not meant to be linked with the definition of disability used for Medicaid or other services. So I'm fine with this, and I think somewhere in the bill we should say as used in this chapter, this program, or this process. Does it go here or does it go later? I'm going show the second half of that sentence. It's how do we say that disability, for purposes of this bill, His knees. Uh-huh. So it's for excluding You don't have

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: to say anything.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Right? Yep. Don't have to say it.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Nope. That's what you have right here as used in this chapter. So it only applies to this. Oh, I know.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. We're good. Perfect. Fine. Well, IT we're not fine. Brandon,

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: go ahead. Sorry. Brandon, I'm with agency and services. So our concern with the definition here is this is used in the prioritization scheme. And the way we read this now is it's it's overly broad. It would actually make it difficult, if not possible, for us to mainly meaningfully prioritize folks. Conditions, including asthma, arthritis, hearing impairment, would all qualify. And I think it would undermine the intent of this bill to address the most vulnerable folks. And so we would given that there's a prioritization scheme here, which seems to reflect a desire to have certain folks put before other folks in this continuum. We think that this language essentially undoes that.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So I I hear you, and I I saw the memo on this, but it seems to me that anyone who works in this field as a case manager would have the capacity to understand triage and who should be first. I mean, someone who comes in with in a wheelchair, and who can't take care of himself or herself. That person would receive priority over someone who might have be hard of hearing.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: So, Madam Chair, we would agree with

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: that approach. We don't feel

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: that the language clarifies that. We feel that

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: we would be in front of

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: the Human Services Board asking why we move forward with that kind of prioritization scheme when others might feel that that was inappropriate prioritization.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: This just says what the disability is, it doesn't say priority. I think the priority is later on in two places. One is with case management and two, it's in the rule making process where prioritization is given to those who have the greatest number of problems.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Any points well taken. Think we can look at that section and have some additional language there to strengthen, essentially just a guide to how these decisions Yeah, are going be made around the

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: yeah. World's understand exactly what you're saying and we don't want to make it difficult for anyone who's doing the eligibility determinations. We don't want to do that at the same time. There's flexibility. And there are, you've got a family and three of the kids have problems and none of them doesn't and the parents are okay, how do you set that

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: for them?

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Right, and that's exactly right. We would seek that guidance for how

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: we

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: would prioritize those populations within that framework.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We'll look at that as we go. Okay. Appreciate that.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Chad. Yes, Senator, thank you. For the record, Chad Simmons, Housing and Homelessness Alliance, Vermont. We support the definition of disability as it currently stands in the bill. And I think it's important to recognize that we're also in support of, as you mentioned, the flexibility and trust that the providers will be able Thank to do

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: you. Yeah, it's good to have you back.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Prostitute, why don't you like it? You can never read any more of the definitions or get over to the next section? Where are we? We are in the definitions. Do you

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Let's keep going. What page? Unless there's a place to stop. If anyone in here sees reason to stop as we scroll through, why don't you just read the headers for each of the definitions and so someone might wanna

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: So you have a definition for diversion, eligible households, emergency cold weather shelter, emergency housing, highly structured shelter, homeless, household, low barrier shelter, minor child, office, permanent supportive housing, prevention program, rapid rehousing, shelter, specialized shelter, supportive services,

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: unsheltered homelessness. And that takes us to page Alright. It's nothing about this building. Okay. Here we go.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: The next do have the, you're establishing the continuum to create an array of services that prevent and address homelessness in Vermont. Program is to be administered by the department's OEO. The office shall maintain a continuum of services that is flexible, housing focused, and designed to prevent homelessness whenever possible. The continuum shall prioritize early intervention, rapid resolution of housing crises, and equitable access to emergency and permanent housing. Program shall provide Why don't you

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: take it up just about a thousand feet Right, so they'd be happy to. And just scroll a little bit slowly and just say what each section is, because I think we've been through this and you don't need to read every word. So

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: this has different elements that would be part of the program, different goals of the program. And then you have this new language about that any funding opportunities under the program are open to anyone, even those that didn't previously receive funding. Then you have the program components. And if you remember, you moved permanent supportive housing out of the levels. This talks about budgeting and presenting each level as its own line item in the budget. Maximizing federal receipts. And then top of page 11, the office or community partners shall offer the place of household an appropriate level subject to capacity staffing and geographic accessibility. Then you have the first level, which is prevention and diversion services. Second level is broken into two pieces. So first, have your highly structured shelter services that emphasize case management. You also have your low barrier shelter services. Both talk about that contracting piece for not less than two years.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's for the organizations that are running the shelter. We clarified that.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Next is level three, specialized shelter services. Same contracting issue. Page 15, level four hotels and motels. Who's calling in that scene? Alex is Oh, go ahead.

[Alex Crimbliss (ACLU of Vermont)]: Hi, madam chair. Alex Crimbliss at the ACLU of Vermont. How are you? I am looking at both of those sections, both the highly structured and the specialized What page? Sort of shelters. So the first one would be on page 12. And I'm looking at lines nine through 14. I just want to flag that our comments related to potentially mandated treatment within some of these levels is present in this section.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It says that they shall provide programming that provides So the concern is that you're forcing people to participate and that you can't have people aren't willing willingly volunteer to participate in various services. May? So, she'll offer participation and some of the, I think the offering of is probably more appropriate. Agree with you on that.

[Alex Crimbliss (ACLU of Vermont)]: Thank you. I appreciate that. And where this really shows up, I think, in the strongest place would be in household responsibilities. So maybe I'll raise my hand again during that section because that really dictates someone's eligibility for the entire continuum.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So thank you. We'll try to live with that. Think it does make sense. Can't force people to Thank you. Rehash one thing. Highly Structured Shelter Services shall offer to provide programming? Shall offer programming. Shall offer programming. And there's another place you were going to recommend that.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. And that was

[Alex Crimbliss (ACLU of Vermont)]: in the specialist service shelters section, which I am at page 14, and it looks like it's lines 12 through 16. And I think the same the same language ensuring that services are available but not required would make sense there too. Thank you. Offer service. Got it.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. We

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: made that change. Okay. So I thought hotels and motels. We have some intent language. Department responsibilities of a hotel or motel is utilized. Page 16, Subdivision 3. If a hotel or motel is utilized, the household responsibilities, participate in case management, planning for housing stability, etcetera. Subdivision four is which rules the hotel or motel has to comply with. Subdivision five is the the capped rooms per night. So we have 700 outside of the cold weather period and a thousand within it. And then we have language that the individuals who are obtaining hotel or motel services pursuant to section six zero two, which is the domestic violence and sexual violence population that's addressed in a separate section. That population doesn't count towards the number of cap rooms in that section. We have your new section as permanent supportive housing, including new language that an eligible household can receive these services as long as their plan deems it necessary. You have a section on other emergency housing services, which is broken into three parts: municipal supports, emergency cold weather shelters, and alternative AHS housing solutions. Then you have household responsibilities. To get

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: my hand up. Go ahead, Amy. Household response, Gina, Jasmine, and Larocque, your partners. Household responsibilities subsection C or three, the similar language around the mandated treatment is in the So section that would need to shift for us. It's offered an opportunity to engage with I think most people are gonna welcome that opportunity. I would think just You're in a three? See, line 15?

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Mhmm. That's Yeah. Line 17. Right. And I think it's.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Where are you reading me? Page

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: 19. Page 19. Page

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: 17. Where are you thinking? Develop a housing plan participate in employment, treatment, or other. How do we say it for reach out?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Engagement. If you're in a program and you're receiving services. I want to add

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: a suggestion.

[Alex Crimbliss (ACLU of Vermont)]: I think that what makes this this section challenging is because this is eligibility for the entire continuum. And so if we could add, like, I would honestly recommend maybe ending the sentence at the housing plan instead of and and adding a new sentence using the word may so that there's that element of choice preserved for individuals.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh, and may participate in treatment, employment treatment, Yeah. Thank you. I'm looking at, Brendan, I'll look at you

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: next. I would like the conversations upstairs in particular highlighted really the importance of folks engaged in these these program services as as an effective way to achieve housing stability. And so we would still support that this be a requirement to participation.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So the question, what is the goal in number three? What is happening in number three before I go to other things? Let's just hold it for a second here.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: So we read this as a requirement that they engage in case management, that they develop a housing plan, they participate in the necessary services such as employment, treatment, or other activities. We don't feel it's appropriate in regards to opt out of the services They're gonna be an important aspect of them changing their system.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Katie, can you help me here? I'm I'm trying to find the page it's on.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, page 19. Page 19 subdivision a three. Lines up. So we're looking at lines 15 through 19. And right now, this is a collection of items that are the household responsibility. The household is doing each of these items. And then you have this catch all phrase in eighteen and nineteen unless explicitly exempt from case management requirements under this chapter of federal law because not all of the programmatic pieces like the low barrier shelters require participation in case management. So the question is whether to put the word may on line 17 before the word participate, which would have the results of requiring that the household to engage with lead case management entity and to develop a housing plan, but it would only be a May on having to participate in employment treatment or other activities as appropriate.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So what I'm gonna suggest in front of engages is agrees to engage. All the others are agrees. I'm looking at number three and number two. So that makes the, if they don't agree to do it then you know, end of conversation. Hold it, I see your hand, I see everybody's hand, I am in the middle of thinking here. So agrees to engage. And then the question about increasing engagement of the planning process and participate in employment, treatment or other activities as appropriate. So as appropriate is a modifier already that's there. So I don't know that the word may does anything more there. Katie, am I

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: right or wrong on that? May makes it optional. If you leave it as is without the May, then there are going to be some households that participate in employment and they wouldn't have to.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: But as appropriate. So as appropriate would mean that the household might not be able to participate in employment. Yes, and then

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: they wouldn't have to be for

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: the And they wouldn't have of to. So, know, May is like belts and suspenders. I don't think we need it. Really don't. This may be an area where we can't find consensus. We're not gonna update Chad. Brenda was first.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Brenda Siegel (End Homelessness Vermont)]: I just wanted to say that I think that the individualized housing plan, if you leave it at that, then the individualized housing plan, where it's appropriate, is going to include whatever the participant is able to do, and it's going to be well done with the case manager. And I think that if you put shall participate in treatment, all of the data, I'm sure you've heard of opioids and everything else, says that that is not a way to force people in engagement. However, continued engagement with their case manager may lead to that. If we cut that off because they won't immediately go to treatment, then we lose that opportunity and we have moral assessments. Okay, Chad?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Chad Simmons, again, HIV, we would agree with that. I think there's two things to just say, There's the population, the people actually being served, and then there's the agencies. As you heard yesterday, the providers shared very quickly or very succinctly that if you exit people from the program or don't allow them to be able to receive services, they're just gonna cycle through. And so that puts more strain on providers, and it puts more strain on the system, and it costs the state money. So if we're trying to be efficient, this isn't the way to do it, and I think, as Brenda said, the research shows that it's better that we can do. Amy?

[Amy Johnson (Vermont Care Partners)]: Casey, Vermont. Amy Johnson, Vermont Care Partners. I agree. I also want to say this would be an unfunded mandate for community based organizations. There's not additional funding. This would be additional people. We want to see people when they're ready. We are no reject SDAs, so we have to see everybody who comes in the door, it would create bottleneck in the system, wait lists, while people who are willing and able to be part of

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: treatment are waiting, the people who are forced to be there. People should be seen when they're ready. Okay, Alice?

[Alex Crimbliss (ACLU of Vermont)]: I just want to say that Brenda's For the record. Oh, sorry, for the record, Alice Crimless, ACLU of Grant, be supportive of Brenda's suggestion to just end it after a housing plan. Otherwise, we strongly feel that May would need to be included. Just to agree with what Chad was saying, the outcomes for people who are coerced into treatment for substance use disorder is We're good.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Thank you. Okay. So Just one

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: last thing. And I'm gonna ask for the removal of the agency. As you heard yesterday, the providers would prefer that it just be made for case management to happen.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Understood. Thank you. Okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We get it. Alright. So, this one is a problem. This one's a tough one. Engages with a lead case, agrees to engage with a lead case management entity, such as a Department of Agencies or a community partner, develop a housing plan. So the suggestion has been made. Oh, I know, I have. It's not up there.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I have a thousand emails coming in all at once that we will be on there. I'm sorry.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: We need to take a break. We will, Ann. We're gonna finish this, and we're gonna take a break. Katie might need a break.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm okay, but I just can't share until such.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I have more minutes. Three more minutes. So I'm gonna look at Brendan, if we put a period after plan.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: I think we still feel it's important, and I reflect up in House Human Services, this was important to a lot of the folks who voted for this as well, that there's an expectation that folks at least agree to engage with services that are available to them.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Develop So, a housing plan. That's aspirational. And participate in other activities as appropriate.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: Exactly, we agree that as appropriate leaves some wiggle room there, but it shouldn't be an option that folks can receive these benefits and choose to not engage in the necessary support services.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh, we just said that. We've got agrees to engage and then if it goes at the plan, if we added in other activities as appropriate, then there's also the whole discussion that goes on. This is eligibility, right? There's things, the last part about explicitly exempt from case management requirements under this chapter of federal law, that I think is important to leave in. You can make that out. But taking out employment, or we could say in other activities such as employment treatment as appropriate. Something like that. You don't like that either, I'll lay it

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: We can work with that.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Talk about this. Committee will have. Committee, what are your thoughts here? End of conversation around the room. Table conversation. I want decisions now on this one. This is important.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: I think there needs to be something in his.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I guess I'm hearing the agents say, you need to give us flexibility. I hear I think the argument I'm hearing is you're homeless because you have a substance abuse addiction.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: You

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: might not be very pleasant to have in a shelter because of that. So do I have to agree to go into recovery in order and do I have to be serious about going in? I I think that's what we're getting at. Or, you know, if you find me a job, can I say, I don't wanna work and have this state still be supplying you when this is a limited resource? But I think an awful lot of this is one on one, and it takes people time to work it through to work it through as

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: That's what the people

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: on the ground working with individuals So how do we find a system that allows that flexibility, but also has enough structure where you can't say, I'm happy the way I am, and I'm just not gonna do anything, the law says you have to take care of it. We get that. We get the philosophical differences are, you know. How you put that into words. Right. So that's as appropriate. But some Yeah. This is about engagement and accountability. Right? And so the engaging with a case manager to it, agrees to engage with a lead case manager. And beyond that, I feel, I get it, it's aspirational, human beings, as we've said, are complicated and it doesn't always follow a straight line. So, Would you put a period after plan or would you say, and participation in other activities as appropriate, just leaving out the examples? I would put a period after plan, but I know it sounds like we're not going Is be the lead case manager, the person that's in that shelter every night talking to people, or is it somebody from the state that arrives once a week, but I think there was a description with a clipboard and says, what number are you? I mean, that's we're trying to put into words what Mhmm. It a human interaction that has trust, which is the person that's there Case manager. Every day. Yeah. When you have fallen off the wagon and you're at your worst and then to say attaboy when you So you're raising a really good point. If you look at the languages here, it says if we said agrees to engage with a lead case management entity, such as AHS or community partner. Okay, I'm gonna upset the apple cart with my picture.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: I thought we were getting somewhere.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. We I know. Oh, I'll go back. I'll go back. I'm just making a suggestion. Agrees to engage with a case manager, on-site case manager. If we said that, that offers some promise of golly, Ned, you're gonna have somebody working with you. And if they're not doing that, then it's hard. Oh my gosh. I see the right heads nodding together. I love this. I'm gonna do the next check. Katie can't hear it. I don't know if I can tell You

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: said agreed. Engage with an on-site case manager. Yes. Yes. That's it. Striking the risk.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Agrees to engage with on-site to develop a housing plan or other activities. Just engage. Just Oh, gotta be engaging.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: All right. Mean, you wanna put

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a plan in lieu period or no plan period. To engage, we're actually around the table now, so don't get excited. Agrees to engage with an on-site lead case manager, period. To develop a housing placement, period.

[Brendan Atwood (Agency of Human Services)]: I think that's important because

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I do think that's important.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: A housing plan or a

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: No. That's that's important, senator. Right. We don't have housing, but some of the stuff that Yeah. The housing plan would be a shelter. What? And then Uh-oh.

[Lily Sojourner (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF/AHS)]: I Lily Sojourner, office of economic opportunity. Just to note about maybe not the word on-site, maybe not necessarily. Because just a reminder that this applies, at at least my understanding, to people who are at any point in the continuum and may therefore not be in a shelter. They may be at risk of homelessness or so just, I think, is potentially an unnecessary qualifier and a qualifier that may

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: not apply to any health situations. That makes sense. I'm seeing I'm seeing some agreement with that one.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Absolutely. Thank you.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Could you go through it again? Okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Do you have? I have a I know what I have. Talking about it. I have a chance to engage with a lead case manager. Wait. Wait. I can't hear Katie. Okay.

[Katie McDonough (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry. Yeah. Agrees to engage with a lead case manager. I have that you are taking out such as department of AHS or community partner Yeah. To develop a housing plan, and I'm uncertain if you want the rest of that phrase in there.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I think we just put a period there. And then we also have to have the unless exempt explicitly exempt with the language of that last phrase on lines eighteen and nineteen, I think. Since we're getting rid of a lot of the accountability, I'm just wondering if she'd get rid of over agrees to engage. No? Okay. Nope, this is eligibility, and you've gotta have some way of ensuring that people are going to get the support. That's what I was going say, just engage with them. I am a case manager. I want agrees in there because look at number two. I'm just all over agrees.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: I have a question on whether or not you want actual lead case manager, or do you want just case?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Case manager. We don't need lead.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: That's what I she didn't read that, so that's why. I didn't read that.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Alright. I'm I'm with you.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair)]: Alright. Yeah. We're all

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: we're all good. Are we okay with that? Yep. Sure. No problem. Okay. I suggest a quarter after we're on break, don't try to advocate for anything.