Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay, so Senate Health and Welfare, we're back. Now we are looking at bills that are ready for possible bills and markups. So thanks for being here. You're welcome. Okay. Let me see if it will share. Mhmm. We're gonna start with S206. That's enough to share. 3.1. 3.1. Right.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know what's going on, but it's not giving me the option to share from where to board from. If everyone has it on their iPads We do. Okay. Then I could just speak and we will Yeah, that's okay. That's okay.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It just, it'll be, people who are on the screen will have to access it on our

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: webpage. Okay. So

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this is draft 3.1 of S-two zero six. This is your bill pertaining to the licensure of early childhood educators. If you remember, we gone through this a few times and you asked for a few changes based on input that you were getting. So section one, no changes. This is the section that lists all of the OPR professions. Section two is where the board of early childhood educators is set up and the new chapter is created in title 26 for licensure. So, I don't think they've had any changes in

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: the board language. I'll go through that quickly.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section three is where you put the rest of the content into the chapter on early childhood educators, not just language about the board. So, you have your definition section. And here is a change that was requested from OPR page. I'm on page six. This is the definition section. Yep. We're in Subdivision 8. And a program or program regulated by CDD means a program or facility approved by the Department for Children and Families Child Development Division as a licensed or registered family childcare home or a licensed center based childcare and preschool program and is not operated by a public school. So, there was childcare program, if operated by a public school, it wouldn't qualify as a program under this language. Okay. You have your provisions language, exemptions language, and there is similar, the corresponding change in the exemption. So we have a list of who is exempted from licensure, and there's a third item on the list, and that is an individual who works exclusively at a public school. Second

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: question for the chair. When do you wanna get into the discussion? Now let's go through the bill. Have to read

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: If you have questions about this for clarification, then you could ask now. It's not

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: really a clarification.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. So we'll come back to it. We'll get part of the discussion. Alright. K.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll keep him. I'm like, I'm in trouble. Brewing. Drink

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a lot of food.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: Never leave the room. Yeah.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Another change, we've looked at this last week. I'm on page 11 moving down to 12. So we had a variant section, and the bill as introduced only had one variance, and that was in sub what is now subsection A, and now that is subsection A one and two. And then the new language we looked at last week was this highlighted language, the bottom of page 12. In addition to the transitional licensure available pursuant to subsection A of this section, the board shall also issue an ECE two license for individuals who have completed the eligibility requirements set forth in 6221A and DE. So that's the GED or high school diploma, age majority, and exam if the board decides to have an exam. So, if they've completed that and completed one of the following, they could be eligible for an EC2. So, 21 college credits and four early childhood education competency areas identified by the board and rule or prior experiential learning that is assessed to be 21 college credits. And this language, we know, subsets after eight years. So, those variances are available for eight years. Disclosure by licensees. The change you're seeing in section four is to use the same language throughout, so variances instead of transitional license. I made that change when I made the change up above. You asked for this new language on a report back. So on or before 11/01/2031, the Office of Professional Regulation is to submit a report to GOVAS committees, Health and Welfare Human Services the implementation of this new chapter, including the number of licensees by license type, the state resources necessary to implement the chapter, the number and nature of any complaints or enforcement actions against the licensee, the qualifications required for each license type, and any other issues the office deems appropriate. And then in section six, this was our language on appropriations and positions, and just updating the heading to reflect the fact that there are positions in it. And then the request was to remove language about legislative intent for fiscal year twenty eight, so that language has been removed from this appropriation section. And then the effective dates have been updated to include the new section on reporting, then the updated type headings throughout the bill. So that

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: that is it for changes. Okay. Now, questions. So, do you have a budget or a comment?

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Not for me, it's not

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: a question. Okay.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Let's

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: go to questions first, then come home appointments, then have a discussion.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Currently, how much do the payroll tax is generated?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: And I don't know if you know that, I'm probably looking at the center of for anything.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Actually, we looked at it in appropriations, yeah.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: Okay. It's a lot. And about how much

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: money is currently going towards this program?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: The money doesn't go to this law. It goes directly to support people who are percentage of poverty to help. It goes to the childcare centers to pay for kids who are coming in. So that, the goal of the payroll tax was to reduce the cost

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: For those individuals? Yeah. Depending upon which FDL percentage you're

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Right, it's not administered. You don't pay it to the people, but it's administered.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: It's going to the childcare center or

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. What we've been finding is that at $45,000 a year, many families couldn't afford childcare. And coming out of COVID, that was the one thing the business community told us they needed childcare because their workers weren't coming And a lot of the centers closed. And if they stayed at the level that people could afford, then they couldn't afford to pay a decent wage, and you got this spot where you couldn't get people because you couldn't pay them, but to charge enough to pay your staff, people couldn't afford it. So the payroll tax, and there's a whole table, subsidizes the cost for people up to 300% of poverty, but at that it's like $10 a week. And I was just sent, it's on my phone somewhere, a story on how Vermont has The New York Times. Yes. That works. Make childcare affordable. Yeah. New York Times. But it doesn't go into this program. It actually subsidizes the parents.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Okay. So I get that.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: With these changes, with this policy, well this is a policy, right? Yep. So this policy is going to cost something.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So within the bill itself you'll see fees being charged for Usually what happens when we have programs like this is that the fees pay for the program itself. So there might be some upfront money needed to get it going, but then after that, this is something finance has to do. Right, absolutely. How much is the piece, how much is needed to support the program in the Office of Professional Regulation? That's actually a question you could ask if you want to.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Do you want me to answer?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, go right ahead. You can state it.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For the record, Lauren DeGibber, Deputy Secretary of State, Madam Chair was absolutely correct. Traditionally, our programs are supported by the licensing fees that are charged, and we have a special fund for OPR. This is a board profession, so the fees are siloed by the profession if it's a board profession and within the OPR fund. And the fees that are generated are intended to cover the entire cost of the program. That means licensure, both applications and renewal and related staff, policy work and related staff and enforcement complaints that we receive about the profession, include screening those complaints, investigating those complaints, and prosecuting those complaints.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: So basically the payroll taxes are gonna go up pending them. That

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State, Vermont)]: not anticipated.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Not in the bill.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Just just to pay

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: for these two positions. Can't remember. You could have stuff in the.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State, Vermont)]: Those two positions are we're asking from a general for a general fund allocation. I don't believe that it's even specifying that it comes out of the payroll tax at this time, but we're asking for a general fund allocation so that we can hire people before we receive any fees so that we can set up the profession because we need to have an executive officer for this profession and also an attorney to do the rules.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So And cost that's in that bill I'm sorry. The cost that's in that bill is the cost of those two positions for one annual.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: And the $2.62 summer from Ginny?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's correct. That doesn't mean there won't be an effort to degrade the fund. There was one last year, right? Really? Well, the childcare fund, there's money. It may not have to. It's pretty well established. It's held a lot. A lot of money.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Okay. So who pays

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: the fees again? Anyone that's applying for these types of licenses like this?

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Correct. It's two years.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Every two years.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. And it's the individual who pays. Now there have been discussions in previous bills of using the payroll tax money for two years, three years, four years of those licensing fees. That's not in this bill. There have been conversations about various organizations paying those licensure fees that's not in this bill. There's been conversations like, for instance, the hospitals pay for a lot of their staff's licensure fees. That could be a model for childcare as well. But again, that's not in this bill. The way that this bill is drafted is the individual who's obtaining the license would pay the licensure fee.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: But it doesn't favor the board. It does not prevent individual childcare by saying, I'll pay the license fee.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And we anticipate that that will happen in wide variety of circumstances.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Thank you, Doctor.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Ginny Any other questions? Okay. So, now it's time for discussion.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: So, as I look at the bill, think it's great that the folk who provide early childcare education want to be recognized and hold a license and so forth, I I support 100%. What I'm really concerned about, and I sort of mentioned this in the past, is as this occurs what I see is the cost for early childhood care is going to go up. These people who are going to get licensed are now going to have a marketable commodity and they are going to want to get paid for providing those services, which is great, you know, but we already know that it's hard for people to afford childcare. So in order to not put that burden on the public, what we're gonna probably see is an increase in how much we need to collect in the in the program to support this, because the cost of the of the programs are. So that's my first concern. My second concern is if we make this mandatory, it means anybody who wishes to enter into this field is going to have to take on a greater education responsibility and so forth, which is a cost to them. It's going be a timepiece, and the question is, are we going to see a decline in the number of early childhood educators? Do not know. The jury is out on that. We will not know for a period of time, and we already know there's a shortage. So and and the other thing we heard is while this will be a way of making sure that these people are qualified and that they are held to a standard. Well, I'm running the business. I'm gonna make sure my employees are are doing the right job. I don't need the state to come in and oversee my employees if I'm doing my job as an employer. And the facility itself already has a license and it's held to the standard. So we have a check and balance already built into the system. So so I don't look at that as as something that this bill plugs a huge hole. What I would prefer to see, this is just my opinion, is that this moves forward on a voluntary basis where people can become licensed and we monitor that for a period of time to see what does that do to the cost of early childhood education. How many people actually want to go get their license? And, again, if I'm an employer of a facility and I want to market my facility as being the best place for you to put your child, I am going to want people who are certified so that I can say, come to my facility because my people are trained in early childhood education and your child is going to get the best care and growth and development by being here. Again, I don't need to be mandated to do that. It would be something that I would do if I were running one of these facilities. So I just think instead of mandating this, this allow a period of time for the industry itself to evolve, develop, we are able to monitor it. We get that report with maybe a few added pieces in it at the end of that period that looks at, have we seen an increase or decrease in child care facilities, or an increase or decrease in number of participants, how many people have gotten licensed, how many haven't, so we can make a more intelligent decision upon whether this should move forward with a mandatory program, or whether the voluntary program actually gets us to the goals that we're trying to achieve. So there's my snuff speech.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm gonna look to you up for history.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: But

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: so I've been in and off of this committee and also I spent six weeks once on appropriations. So we started with the stars program. Right? Mhmm. And you that was similar set of hire that you get stars. And there was requirements that you have an associate's degree. And Jane Kitchell was very active in that. But what we didn't do is put any money in, so we required that you do an associate's degree, but you didn't get a raise, which caused problems. And this is kind of growing out of that now. This is formalizing what's already there. And there is VSAC. What is it called? The Vermont Green Star? VSAC has a scholarship for two years. Yeah. It's called G Mount Guitar to Vermont Stars. We can put that in, but you can get the money. Well, there anything in the bill, Katie, that requires a childcare worker to have any specific degree? Does it say you must have ordered a work in

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a childcare center? There's specific requirements. So, me pull it back up.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: And I will say as we're talking about this, what is in the bill has actually come from the childcare professions and professionals to please do this for the reasons that you stated in the beginning. I absolutely agree with that. So it's not a matter that we're taking this out of thin air. It's really, I think it's a continuation of what we saw with the STARS program, what we saw as we built the childcare bills, we put the scholarships in place, and all of it has coalesced around this is a profession that needs to be respected, but then also validated, and this is the way of validating that. But it would be helpful if we could get a history because I think this has been, like, ten years. Let's ask something about the inventory. Can I phone a friend on that? No. That's what I hope is still correct. So I'm looking at a couple of people in the room who would like to say something about getting us a history on this.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State, Vermont)]: Well, for the record again, Lauren Tibbern, I can provide some history on this. I think Emily might be better served on the long financial history and on the career ladder. But what this what this bill is doing is building on what currently exists within CBD. This requires certain qualifications for particular roles in childcare sectors. That is also true right now within the CDD division of DCF. There are requirements for specific roles. This takes those requirements. In some instances, it's building them to a higher level, and we've talked about that those levels quite a bit. The the bachelor's for ECE three and the associate's for ECE two. That concept of the variances, which legislative council has really been working so hard on with us, provides that period, that that eight year period to allow people multiple pathways into the profession based on their current experience, and if they wanna get the associate's degree, time to get the associate's degree. This committee did hear from the colleges, from about the strong attendance that they have in their early childhood education program, and the fact that almost all of those individuals are receiving that associate's degree without cost to them through scholarships from CDDs, from Northern Lights, from the Early Childhood Educators Association. So I anticipate that all of that support will continue for people who seek either the 21 credit pathway or the associate's degree pathway during this eight year period. And the other piece that I would just leave you with is that report back is within that eight year period. So that people will be able to see, are we getting this right? Are there adjustments that need to be made? And and I guess the other piece I said, one last thing that I want to say, which is always a fatal flaw. Other thing that I just want to say is the Oxy Professional Regulation, the reason why we are recommended a license and not certification, which is what you're talking about in our Sunrise review, is that we found that there was significant enough public harm that individual licensure should be required. That the risk of harm to young Vermonters who are in childcare really shows that we need individual accountability, not just at the facility level, so that when somebody does something that hurts the child, which happens, I mean, we've had several really public news stories about it. It's at the individual level that there's accountability, not just the facility. And we found that there was not only just that type of harm, but, you know, poor care, subpar care has huge impacts on someone's future readiness for kindergarten, truancy in high school, criminal justice involvement in their twenties. I mean, it goes on and on and on that the foundation, and you've heard some really great testimony from providers on how much neuro development is happening between zero to five. And some of that is happening in pre k, which is regulated right now, but there's a lot that's happening in zero. Those are the reasons why we recommended licensure. I'm happy to talk more about it. But in terms of the history, the voluntary sort of certification of stars, I'm gonna turn to Let Us Grow Kids because they know it better than I do.

[Emily Teitelbaum (Let’s Grow Kids Action Network)]: Emily Teddybaum, Let's Grow Kids Action Network for the record. I will go high level and then in the STARS history and engagement of field over to show input from on AIC. I'll be super quick. When we look at the cost, we I look at the cost of if we do nothing in this moment, and the cost is really great because we are looking at staffing shortages. I think both of you referred to that. And this, from data, is the most important thing we can do as a next step as a follow-up to Act 76 to make sure when we get New York Times accolades, it's affordable, it's really bringing that to our state. And then single most important data point we're looking at is how do we retain and recruit the talent and the people in the room? I have a four year old. What are the professional standards we can put in place so parents know what to expect, that childcare owners and directors have a pathway to make sure we can make sure that we have them both retaining them and recruiting them. And it really is the single most important step. And that's why you're seeing this still in this moment. And so I ask you what the cost of doing nothing in this moment is. And I think we need to make sure that we really look at the data and this is the single next step. Yes.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So because it's after 12:00, we're going to finish up today. We're gonna come back to this bill tomorrow for possible vote. We also have S-two 43 and S-two 10 that we'll look at the same time. The discussion that I'm hearing really reflects, we heard a lot of testimony that will answer some of your questions, Senator. So I encourage you to look at that and also as we're getting ready for these other bills, to do similarly with the bills that we've had before us. We'll come back to this tomorrow and