Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: So good morning. It's February 4 and we are the Senate Health and Welfare Committee looking at S-one 157. There's a section in 157 regarding renter rights. And so I invited Cameron Wood. Cameron, why don't you introduce yourself and then talk a little bit about the area of law that is referenced in the bill on fifty seventh. Yes, ma'am. Happy to for the record, Cameron Wood And before you start

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, ma'am.

[Advocate from Action Circles (name unclear)]: Do you know everyone around

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: the table? I believe so. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, ma'am. So for the record, Cameron Wood, office of legislative council. For those who don't know, part of my portfolio covers housing. So I deal with certain housing related matters, including landlord tenant relationships and statutory provisions that govern landlord tenant law. I also deal with consumer protection matters and retirements and pensions, among a few other miscellaneous topics, but this is one of the primary ones. So Madam Chair, you had asked me to come in and really just kind of talk globally about landlord tenant law, Chapter 137, related to landlord tenant, how this bill, I should say, is impacted there, etcetera. So there is in Title IX a chapter, chapter 137, which is titled Residential Rental Agreements. And I'm going to pull up some of the provisions if that would be helpful for everyone. But before I get there, what are these things? What are we talking about? At the core nature, we're talking about contracts. These are contracts between individuals where one person is providing a dwelling unit and another person is providing consideration, I. E. Rent, to use that dwelling unit. Because of the sensitive nature relationship, the fact that it is someone's house that they're contracting for, the legislature has this chapter that sets out certain obligations of each of the parties as it relates to that agreement, and then it also sets out what happens in the event that that agreement needs to be terminated, and how that process goes about, what are the rights and remedies of each of those parties in those circumstances where these things go south. And so what I'm going to start with is I just want to talk about the chapter as a whole real quick to kind of orient us here. As I mentioned, we're in Title IX, Chapter 137. We've got some definitions, some exclusions, some language about individuals cannot circumvent the requirements of this chapter even if they want to. These requirements of each of the parties are statutory, and they cannot be waived. And then we get into subchapter two, which is really the kind of meat here. It has certain obligations that tenants are required to comply with. So you can see there in the first two sections of subchapter two, forty four, 55, and 56, tenants are required to pay rent. There is no requirement that the landlord provide notice that rent is due. It is an obligation of the tenant. They are required to pay them without demand from the landlord. Subsequently, in four fifty six, the tenants have obligations regarding the unit. They have to ensure that they're not damaging the unit such that it becomes non compliant with certain health and safety regulations. They can't damage the unit itself, destroy fixtures, etcetera. Have to Okay, so let me back up. They cannot disrupt the peaceful enjoyment of other tenants on the property, etcetera. So the tenants have their own obligations, but what about the landlords? You get into the next few sections here, 4,457, 4,458, where it talks about the landlord's obligations regarding habitability. The landlord has to ensure that the unit is habitable, that it meets all of the health and safety requirements, get to that in just a second, have to provide heat, hot water, those can't be waived, etcetera. And then it provides remedies for the tenant if the landlord is not meeting their habitability obligations, what can the tenant do? The tenant can terminate the agreement, they can seek damages if they have to go out and get another dwelling unit to live in, they can seek damages for the cost of having to move, they can seek reasonable attorney's fees, etcetera. When you have minor defects, if the tenant is notifying the landlord of the minor defects and the landlord is not then fixing them, the tenant can fix them themselves. They can deduct reasonable costs from their rent, etcetera. Then separate from them, you have other provisions which really address access. The tenant has to provide the landlord with reasonable access to the units at specific times. There's sections related to security deposits governing how much a security deposit is, when it has to be paid back to a tenant, so the tenant now leaves, the landlord has the security deposit, what can the landlord deduct from the security deposit, time frames of when they're obligated to give the security deposit back, if they're gonna deduct, what they have to provide that information to the tenant of what they're deducting it for. What do you do when there's property that's abandoned? Section 4,462. A landlord has to hold that property for a specific time period, and then they can charge reasonable fees to the tenant for maintaining that property for sixty days. That's going be relevant when I get back to the exclusion for recovery residences that you're looking at. Have to maintain it for sixty the landlord has to maintain it for sixty days. They can charge reasonable fees to the tenant to recover that property, So there's obligations there. And then you get into illegal evictions, prohibitions, remedies for the tenant if there is an illegal eviction. I'm going to come back to illegal evictions in a second when we talk about the exclusion. And then when you get to the bottom here, you have four thousand four and sixty seven and four thousand four and sixty eight, which deals with what do you do when the agreement needs to be terminated? Tenant's not paying rent. Tenant is conducting illegal activity on the premises, or I think the statute specifically calls out illegal criminal activity, illegal drug use, or acts of violence. There are specific time frames that are associated with each of these termination scenarios. So if it's nonpayment of rent, there's fourteen days notice. If you're terminating because of criminal activity, it is fourteen days notice. And then if you're terminating for other reasons, which could be that you've sold the building, could be that the rental agreement is about to expire, intending, and you as the landlord are not intending to renew it, there's certain time frames about when those terminations have to be provided and how much notice you have to give to the other party.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Can you explain the difference between a termination and an eviction? Because they, to me, they seem like the same. I

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: mean Yes. And that's gonna be important when we get into the inclusion because it excludes, currently under the law, it excludes the provision related to the termination notice period, and then it also excludes the provisions related to the eviction. So section four thousand four and sixty seven, as I mentioned, it has all of these notice periods if you're going to terminate the rental agreement itself, you have to provide the tenant with a specific time frame of notice. The termination of your lease agreement is effective upon x date. And again, whether that's fourteen days, it can go all the way up to ninety days, depending on the circumstance. What do you do then if the individual doesn't leave the premises at that point in time? You've terminated it. You've terminated the contract. You've terminated the agreement, but the individual's still there. Now you as a landlord have to bring an ejectment action in court, which is governed in Title 12. It's not here. The specific provisions of how that is carried out and the sections in the process for an injection are entitled 12, but that's the difference, is really you terminated the agreement, but now you have to eject the individual in eviction, and how do you go about doing that? You go to court, you get a writ of possession, and then there are specific, as I mentioned, sections related to the answer period and how you can expedite that process under certain circumstances and get the writ to then have the share of the evidence. Okay. So I'm going to kind of hone in on the exclusion that we have been discussing briefly. So in section four thousand four and fifty two, there are specific exclusions from the application of this chapter to these residential circumstances. I'm gonna start with the one that we're reviewing here, which is in subsection B, and as you can see, this section is effective until 07/01/2026, so it will expire in July 1 unless you all take action, which my understanding is part of this bill.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Make sure I grab my correct

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: What this says is, notwithstanding sections four thousand four sixty three B, four thousand four and sixty seven B, and four thousand four and sixty eight. What are those? I'm gonna go into those in a second once we review the language, but essentially, those are the sections about the termination notice dates and the eviction periods. So we're for these recovery residences, and there's a definition at the end of this subdivision, for these recovery residences, you are not required to comply with these sections if these conditions are met that are set out in this Subdivision B. And it says that a recovery residence may immediately exit or transfer a residence if all of the following conditions are met.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Are we seeing a bill now?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is current law.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Okay. So, you're. Okay. Where in the bill are we? Unchanged rules. I'm sorry. That's still a bill. Thank you. Okay. Yep. I'm there. Thank you.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the recovery resident can immediately exit someone. We've not withstood these other time frame provisions. If the recovery residence has developed and adopted a residential agreement that contains a written exit the non A sub one contains a written exit and transfer policy approved by the Vermont Alliance for Recovery Residences or another certifying organization approved by the Department of Health that addresses the length of time a bed will be held in the event of a temporary removal, establishes the criteria by which a resident can return to the recovery residence, ensures a resident's possessions will be held for not less than sixty days in the event of a permanent removal. So I wanted to flag the sixty days earlier. If you're curious why it's sixty days here, I didn't originally draft the language. I wasn't here at the time, but my assumption is that it complies with the current process for abandoned property, where a landlord has to maintain that abandoned property for at least sixty days. So the residential agreement has to contain the written exit and transfer policy that contains all of these provisions. The residential agreement has to designate on the sub two here, right here, those following along, has to designate alternative housing arrangements for the resident in the event of an exit or transfer, including contingency plans when alternative housing arrangements are not available. And then the resident agreement has to describe residential agreement has to describe the recovery residence's substance use policy, which shall exempt the use of a resident's valid prescription medication when it's prescribed. The residential agreement I'm on the sub four here now has to indicate that by signing the agreement, the resident acknowledges the recovered residence may cause the resident to be immediately exited or transferred if the resident violates the recovered residence's substance use policy or engages in acts of violence that threaten other residents. Moving on to my sub B here. The recovery residence has obtained the resident's written consent to the agreement, and it has to be reaffirmed after seven days. The resident has to violate that agreement, and then the recovery residence has provided or arranged for a stabilization bed or alternate temporary housing. Okay, so if all of those conditions are met, if they have this residential agreement, it has all of this information outlined in them, They're ensuring that the individual is aware of it. The individual agrees to it. They sign it. They reaffirm after seven days. And then the person violates the substance use policy. What do we do? If you look at the termination period, as I talked about, under a normal circumstance it's not a recovered residence. Under a normal circumstance, if a tenant is if the agreement is terminated based on criminal activity, the notice has to provide at least fourteen days before the termination date. So that's what you're excluding for these recovered residences. If they have all of this information, the agreement contains all of this information that has been signed off by, as I mentioned, the Vermont Alliance for Recovery Residents, the resident has agreed to it, signed they agreed to it, affirmed that they agreed to it, and then they violate the policy, they can be removed and exited immediately. The recovery residence doesn't have to comply with this fourteen day notice period. That's what the exclusion is for. It's specifically tailored to that subsection of this section. And so then the other exclusions are about the eviction process. So this is the termination period, as I mentioned, and then you get to a section that prohibits illegal evictions. So under the sub B here, a landlord cannot directly or indirectly deny a tenant access to the premises that the tenant has rented. So even though you've terminated somebody, you can't then put a lock on the door and say, you're not allowed to enter. And so what this is saying is we're going to exclude these recovery residences from that requirement, because if you're exiting them immediately, you're denying them access to the premises that they are technically renting. And then finally, there is a section 4,468. This is where Senator Gulick, as you asked about the difference between the termination and the eviction. This is where 4,468, if the tenant remains in possession after the termination, you have to bring the adjudication. And so the current exclusion going back here, as you see in the lead in for B1, notwithstanding those three provisions, you can exit someone immediately if you have all of this agreement in place with all of this information, where the person has agreed to it, they've signed that they agreed to it, they've reaffirmed that they agreed to it, then they violate the policy. You can exit them immediately. And again, as information here, there has to be alternative housing arrangements where the individual is exited or transferred to. So now I start to wade into an area practically where I'm not that familiar about how this works on the ground, I would probably defer some of those questions to other individuals.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Yeah, thanks, Cameron, because that was one of my questions. I know everyone likes this language. It feels a little draconian to me, but I get I understand what's being done. So, I'm worried that there aren't gonna be available beds. Like, that's what we're all struggling with right now. So, I do see that there is a contingency plan piece in the bill and I am on page five. What, do we know what those contingency plans look like or what they contain? I'll be on-site if you're

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I would defer to the recovery residents so I'll see how that works. Thank you.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Thank Thank you.

[Advocate from Action Circles (name unclear)]: Have to run upstairs so I can't stay. But there are advocates And

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: your name is. Oh, thank you.

[Advocate from Action Circles (name unclear)]: Then off the legislative councils. Advocates are asking that two other sections are not withstood, so I wanted to make sure that the committee was familiar with what was in those two other sections. So that was 4460 and oh. 4456. 4 I don't have it written down. Okay. Four four sixty. I I.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So that would make sense. So four four sixty is about access. It it indicates when a landlord can access the premises, so I pulled it up here so you all can review it. The landlord may enter the dwelling unit with the tenant's consent, and the tenant cannot unreasonably withhold that consent. And then it says that the landlord may also enter the dwelling unit for the following purposes between the hours of 9AM and 9PM on no less than forty eight hours notice making an inspection, having to address needed repairs, as I mentioned earlier, the minor defects that the tenant wants to pick, the landlord has to have access to the place to be able to fix them, supply agreed services, and to show the unit to potential purchasers. So I could see a scenario where the recovery residents or the individuals who are managing that may need access to whatever space the individual is currently living in, and currently, because it's not included in the exclusions, they would have to, the recovery residents would have to comply with this section. So they would have to ask for permission to come in. The tenant can unreasonably withhold that, but I'd have to go look and see if there's any case law on what that looks like.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Yeah, I was wondering, does the notice have to be acknowledged that it was received, or is it

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: just like once you send the notice, you're good? The way I read this is you have to provide notice. It doesn't say actual notice, and the reason I only bring that up is because there is a definition of what actual notice means. The terminations themselves have to be provided by actual notice, which is kind of more indicated to ensure that the tenant receives it. Here it just says provide notice, But keep in mind, it's limited to So those four if you're wanting access because you're wanting to verify compliance with the substance use policy, I would say that you can't access unless you have their consent. And the only condition is the individual can't, and the reason they get told there. I could see reasoning behind wanting to exclude that. And then the other piece is, I would say, probably just more cleanup. You've excluded the recovery residences from having to comply with the section related to illegal evictions. When you immediately exit somebody, it's not gonna be an illegal eviction by doing that, denying them access to the unit. This is a section that allows for the tenant to take action, file a claim against the landlord if they feel that they have been illegally evicted.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Excellent.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The last thing I'll also mention, before I I'm going to jump over back to section of the law real quick, because I also did see some new language. The exclusion piece, it's not solely limited to residential recovery residences. As you can see in the sub A here, there's actually wholesale exclusions for certain reasons. So A1, occupancy at a public or private institution operated for the purpose of providing all of these medical, geriatric, educational, counseling, religious, similar services. When you are a member of a sub three year member of a fraternal, social, or religious organization, transient occupancy in a motel, owner of a condominium, or under a proprietary lease in what's called a housing cooperative, these are all just excluded entirely from the chapter. So there are circumstances where there aren't just these narrow exclusions, there's much broader exclusions entirely, so I just wanted you all to know that this isn't necessarily a unique thing. And then just jumping over to the bill, I see that it's got the same under section two here, the same lead in language is the same. It sounds like there may be a proposal to add a few of those sections we reviewed about access and remedies. And then it looks like under line 12, included in the written transfer and exit policy would have to be an explanation of the program rules and expected residential social standards. Then adding some language here in the section sub five, bottom of five, page six, which would state that the individual by signing the residential rental agreement, the resident acknowledges that the recovery residence may cause a resident to be immediately exited or transferred to alternative housing if the resident violates the recovery residence's substance use policy, adding in regularly refuses to engage in services or programming, commits a crime, engages in theft, is mentally or physically interfering with the recovery of other residents, or engages in acts of violence that threaten the health or safety of other residents or recovery resident staff. So adding some additional actions that the individual is taking, the recovered residents could immediately exit them for these purposes, and then just adding what seems, it looks like corresponding language to the next section. You're saying to the individual, if you engage in this activity, you can be immediately exited. The individual had to actually engage in that activity, and then at that point, they can be immediately exited. That's really a quick, very quick, hopefully succinct discussion.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: It is quick and succinct. It's helpful. So the implications of some of these things we're going to have to talk with people who are actually working in this area. So one of the things I'm interested in as you were going through this statute is the specificity of rental agreements. So it seems to me that there could be a broad range of specific inclusions in any rental agreements including this. So, and this will probably be a question for the bar, VITAR and, Department of Health in terms of rules around the program and how that further elaborates what we have here.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Two other quick comments I'll just make in response. There is no requirement in the statute of what a residential rental agreement must have made. A Yeah. Rental agreement can be verbal. It can be in writing. There are certain things the statute says you cannot waive by it, you can't waive the obligation of the landlord to provide a dwelling that meets habitability standards. You can't write that into an agreement and waive it, but other than that, what's included, there's no requirement. You do have some of the requirement in that section in particular, but it's something you may wanna look at. And the last comment I was just gonna make is, keep in mind, you've only excluded specific pieces, so the recovery residence is still required to comply with providing a habitable space, etcetera. So there are still provisions that the recovery residence would be required to comply with.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: So if, and so in those instances, a resident would have the right to challenge if the repair to the furnace didn't happen, by the way.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, so you have all of those obligations of habitability, and then the tenant in that situation could take action, even if they're in a recovery residence, if the landlord in this instance, the recovery residence itself isn't fixing issues, doesn't have heating, doesn't have hot water, etcetera. The individuals living there have all of those remedies that are available to them under current law. This isn't big question for him. Just trying to learn of, are all recovery residences privately owned?

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Good question. Are all of our recovery residences, should we have, no. The answer is probably no, but I'll go ahead for the record.

[Advocate from Action Circles (name unclear)]: Bank funds action circles. Most recovery residents are operated by nonprofit organizations and then certified by the Vermont affiliate of the national body that regulates public residences, and now sort of school that seek my own Department of Health. Good. So, they're not quite, like, yeah, they're not.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Could offer the state to own one.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, that's not as one.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Yeah, don't have one then. I was just, okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: One last thing I'll mention, I wasn't sure if this question would come up or not, who or what entity kind of oversees habitability issues or concerns for your dwelling units? That authority was transferred to the Department of Public Safety Division of Fire Safety just a few years ago. And so it used to be municipalities had health officers, you would go there, there was a concern or a violation or a need for redress, but that authority was transferred. I believe it was in 2022, yes. 2022

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: over to vision by something. Right. And they're pretty strict. They are very strict.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So they have a habitability code that goes into a lot of detail of what is required for habitability for each of these dwellings or residential dwellings. Happy to share that with you all.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Great. Other questions? Good. Cameron, thank you for being a part of this. This is great. And we know where our expertise lies. Expertise is ours.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This was my first time in your committee. It has been a wonderful pleasure, so I hope I get the opportunity to do that.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: You will. I hope. I mean, maybe not, but we'll

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: see

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: what You know, promises you. Understood.

[Advocate from Action Circles (name unclear)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: Okay, good. Yeah, so what we'll do is, know we have a couple minutes here and I've got a group of folks in the room. Is there anyone who wishes to comment at this time or you can also add your name to the witness list if you haven't done that already. I'm looking at apartments health or recovery residences. You come and you. Okay. I just have a question. Go ahead. Would it be appropriate to hear from some folks or a person that has had a lived experience? And we could try to do that. Yeah. We'll we'll see what we can do. Right. And I think maybe Jeff Morell or some others would be able to identify someone wrong. Go ahead. Do have For the record.

[Advocate from Action Circles (name unclear)]: Make post action circles for the record. And next week is actually recovery day and this isn't exact, we could absolutely get folks with lived experience and the residents here to testify. We are bringing them in to testify for a joint hearing that your committee is part of. So next Wednesday, you will hear from some folks with

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Vice Chair, acting Chair)]: lived experience in our public residences. Very good. I forgot it was next Wednesday. That's great. Thank you. So we'll be able to ask questions. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. So we're gonna take a break. We're gonna go off live for until, just before a quarter of, so