Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: See you.

[Rep. John Benson]: Good to see you.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank very much.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay, so this is Senate Health and Welfare. We're back live on January 16, and we have the sponsor of H-two 37. It's like deja vu all over again, but it's a good deja vu all over again. So thank you for being here, representative. Introduce yourself for the record and give us kind of the background for why we have this bill. Representative

[Rep. John Benson]: John Benson, for the record. This bill came about because several psychologists that work in my district approached me and said, well, she's gone through the bill. So what they were saying is, we're finding that when we're dealing with somebody with mental health problems, can't, if a prescription for some kind of a drug is needed, they can't do it. And they have to wait to get a psychiatrist to see the person, bring them up today, and whether they, the psychiatrist, the only one that can provide the prescription. So we all know that there's a of psychiatrists in the state of Montez. And this would help people with mental health issues eventually, because they're dealing with the psychologist, I mean the psychologist, that is working with them, they would be able to provide that prescription if it was needed. Now, before this can happen, these psychologists need to take certain courses so they understand the ramifications of using a particular drug. And they were all in agreement with that. We need to do that graduate work before prescribe. So that basically is the reason I introduced the bill. Collagenous psychiatrists helping individuals with mental health problems to get services as quickly as possible.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Questions? Nope. Good. Then we have, Rick Burnett has contacted us about testifying. I think he must have testified in your committee as well. That's a PhD psychologist. Yeah. If you have any suggestions for us for testimony, have your committee assistants send them in if you can, that would be great.

[Rep. John Benson]: Okay, well, I could probably get one of those people that talked to me.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: To testify?

[Rep. John Benson]: To testify. Sure, that would be great. And they'd be a good witness for you because they'd do it if you told them.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, good, that'd be Okay,

[Rep. John Benson]: thank you, Thompson.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. All right, when do you need the person in here? ASAP. Just like me. I know, so I think we may have it scheduled coming up next week, or it will be next week, week after, we'll be working

[Rep. John Benson]: on

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: this.

[Rep. John Benson]: Okay, so

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'll have to get to the topic. All right, good. Thank you very much and thanks for taking it up. Okay, I hope you. Thank

[Rep. John Benson]: you, Katie.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, no problem. All right.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: Yes. Do you also have a psychiatrist?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh yeah.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: So we hear kind of the both sides.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah,

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: so what I'm thinking about, so what I do is as I'm listening to this and thinking about it, I'll look at their list of testimonies, and we have a psychiatrist, a psychologist who sent in a list, and VMS, the Vermont Med Society of one of the N. So we have the Office of Professional Regulation. We got a whole list of people, and then we just narrow it so we get the basic information. Thank you. Yes. Hello again. Alright. So, welcome back. Thank you.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Let's see. Still Katie McLennan office of legislative council, and I will jump back to S206. Is that

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's where we are. Okay. Yep.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, that's too bad. I guess when I left the room, I lost my connection to Zoom. Oh, shoot.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So,

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: while I'm pulling this up, I can refresh your memory that we were looking at S206, which relates to early childhood educators. This is a licensure program and it is licensure of the person, the actual human provider, versus the childcare program, which is licensed by DCF. This created four new categories, and it doesn't take effect immediately. It will build in some time for board to be in place and for rules to be adopted.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Oh, here we go. Maybe close now. It's Friday.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's in the air. Here

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: is the document.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I already gave you sort of a high level overview of what's in the bill, to sort of scroll through and give you some familiarity with how it's structured. Here we go. So, first in Title III, we have a list of all of the professions that are administered by OPR or governed by OPR. And so it's a big long list, so we're adding number 55, early childhood educators, to the list in section one. In section two, there is a new chapter being created, early childhood educators. So this, a chapter is being created here. The chapter in the section two appears a little out of order because this section two is what goes into effect first, the setting up of the board. And then in section three, we sort of backfill the chapter with what will be in effect at a later date. So, we have the creation of the Board of Early Childhood Educators. This subsection has to do with the makeup of the board. And then at the top of page three, we have how the vacancies on the board are filled. The next section, sixty two twelve, is the procedures of the board, when they meet, how they elect a chair, what is a quorum, how does voting happen? 60 two-thirteen, yes. So,

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: I'm just wondering, there's no connection here with Morgan Crossman Screwman anyway.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: With regard to the board? Yeah. No.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It might be good to hear from them. Yeah. What's the organization? Building Bright Futures. Building Futures. Bright Futures. So, that would be helpful. Okay.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: 62.13, this is the powers and duties of the board. So, they're responsible for adopting rules to oversee the licensure. They would provide general information to applicants for licensure. They would explain appeal procedures to licensees and applicants, as well as complaint processes to the public. The board would be responsible for using administrative and legal services provided by OPR, and the board may conduct hearings and exercise authority as provided under three BSA Chapter five. Section three amends the chapter that you've just created in section two, but you'll see now we're putting in sub chapters and we're starting with 6201. So this is language that takes effect when the actual licensure takes effect. Section two is setting up the program. Section three is starting to implement the program. So we have definitions, including who is an early childhood educator. I know we're doing high level, but Don't it feels do it. No, no, no. Okay. I just can't help myself. It means an individual providing care and educational instruction to children from birth through eight years of age in a program regulated by the CDD, meaning the division within the Department for Children and Families, including planning and implementing intentional developmentally appropriate learning experiences that promote the physical health and social, emotional, linguistic, and cognitive growth of children, establishing and maintaining a safe, caring, inclusive, and healthy learning environment, observing, document, and assessing children's learning development, developing reciprocal culturally responsive relationships with families and communities, and engaging in reflective practice and continuous learning. So that's what we mean by early childhood educator generally. And then we start getting into definitions where we're calling out and defining each of the four categories that are being created. So there's an early childhood educator one, just a person who practices as an assistant educator in a program under the supervision of an early childhood educator two or three, or a teacher, who's licensed by AOE. So just wanna flag the term educator as something about which there is angst between educators

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: and childcare providers. So the educator, so what other word is there that could conceivably be there and shouldn't be? I guess there's been a huge discussion about that and I just want everyone to know, be prepared for that discussion.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. There's a lot of conversation in the box about what the right terminology is. Early childhood educator two is a person who practices as a lead or primary educator in a program. They would supervise the ECE one and receive guidance from the ECE three.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: That's right.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The early childhood educator three practices as the leader primary educator in a program. They supervise the ECE one and provide guidance to the ECE two. And then there's the family child care provider who is the individual who's providing developmentally appropriate care, education, protection and supervision of children from birth through eight years of age, and is authorized by DCF to operate a family child care home. So those are the four categories: ECE one, two, and three, and then the family child care provider. I'm gonna skip over these. So we have some prohibitions that an individual can't hold themselves out as an early childhood educator unless they have a license or they're exempt. And there we have a section on exemptions. And the individual can't use in connection with their name the term early childhood educator, again, unless they have a license or they're exempt. So here is our section of exemptions, which I think is important because there's been a lot of conversation about, again, the term educator and who is being captured by this license. So this does not apply to a teacher who's licensed under Title 16, which is the education title, when they have endorsements in early childhood education, early childhood special education, or elementary education. Similarly, the chapter does not apply to individuals who provide care in an after school childcare program that's regulated by the Department for Children and Families or any other childcare program that is exempt from regulation for, by DCF. So, I guess I should just pause and say that in DCF's statutes and rules, there are some providers who are offering child care services that do not need a license from DCF. They're exempt from DCF. For example, I think if a family child care provider is watching their own child plus children from two other families, they don't need a license. I think I have that right, that it's two other families. Similarly, if it's a childcare program that's associated with childcare services during like a religious service, those don't receive a license from DCF or I want to say the ski resorts, they provide childcare services. That's not a licensed childcare facility under DCF. So, when they're saying if it's exempt from regulation by DCF, that's what it means. Most programs that are providing care in a center or home are regulated by DCF. This doesn't alter the requirements of the universal pre pay. And this is not construed to limit or restrict to any manner the right of a practitioner of another professional occupation from carrying on in the usual manner and functions incidental to that professional occupation. So we are now creating subchapter two, which is where the board will go. We've already seen all the language related to the board in section two, that's why we have these ellipses, because that has not changed. We're just holding space and saying that is as you've already seen it. Then page eight, sub chapter three, this is where we get into the actual licensure requirements. So to be eligible for licensure, the applicant has to have attained the age of majority, achieved a high school diploma, a GED, or an approved equivalent credential and completed field experience in early childhood education as required by IOL. And then subsection B takes each of the four provider types in turn and outlines the specific requirements. I won't go through that now, but they're a little bit different as you'd imagine for each of the four types. Important to note, and we'll dive into this more closely, for the family child care provider, the person has to be in good standing with the division as of 01/01/2029, and the board shall not accept applications after 01/01/2029. Meaning that everybody who is practicing prior to 01/01/2029 as a family childcare provider can obtain that as a license type. After that, that license type would go away and a person would have to fall into the ECE one, two or three categories. So, it's sort of grandfathers and the folks who are currently practicing as a family child care home provider, but for future folks coming into the field, they'd have to be licensed under one of the other three categories. I'm gonna skip over this for now. There's language about how to renew a license every two years. There's a renewal process and a required fee. There's language that talks about if your license has lapsed, how it could be reinstated, but if the license of a family child care provider would not be renewed if there's a lapse of two or more years. Let's see. Then we have language in 06/2023 about fees. So we're setting up a fee structure for the three licensure types, four licensure types. We have language about unprofessional conduct, which is conduct prohibited in Title III or by other stat statutes relating to early childhood education, whether that is conducted, that conduct is by a licensee or an applicant. The conduct that results in a licensee applicant or individual being placed on the Child Protection Registry is prohibited conduct. Conduct not in accordance with the professional standards of the early childhood educators published by the National Association of Education of Young Children. So those prohibited conduct. This is where we have language about variances. So for early childhood educator two or three, there are transitional licenses. They would be available for eight years after the passage of this section, which would give individuals time to come into compliance with any educational requirements or experiential requirements that they're not up to date on to achieve these licensure types. There are required disclosures by licensees. So an early childhood educator licensed in this chapter is to post and provide current and prospective families the following information. All available license types. So they would have to post and provide to families what are the different license types that are regulated by OPR, a description of OPR's regulatory authority and the programs regulated by CDD and how to make complaints. Also a description of AOE's regulatory authority over teachers for providing pre K services, and a description of CDE's regulatory authority over regulated child care programs and how to make complaints. So basically what this is saying is that there are different professionals and they're regulated in different ways. There are some that are going to be at the school or the program that are regulated by OPR. There are teachers who are licensed by, under Title 16, to provide universal pre tag. There is I'm sorry, there, that's the AOE, right? Yeah, what did I have to say? No, no. You're right, I'm on Title 16. Title 16, yes. Agency of Education. Yes, yes. And so this is saying that there has to be notice to provide a parent or guardian with information about how to contact and make a complaint about different folks, depending on what their licensure is. So, as we said, the transitional license is only available for after eight years. Section five is, oh, this is the appropriation language. So, we have an appropriation happening in fiscal year twenty seven, and new positions created. So in '27, a new position for the Vermont Board of Early Childhood Educators, that's the executive director, and a full time exempt staff attorney, And the amount for that is $2.62 appropriated from the general fund. In subsection B, there is also language about the creation of three new positions and an appropriation, but you'll see, excuse me, whereas in subsection A, the appropriation is going out, it's affirmative language that the appropriation is happening, in subsection B, we're leading in with it is the intent of the general assembly to do this, so as not to bind future legislatures to an appropriation made by this legislature. So it's the intent in fiscal year twenty eight to create a full time classified licensing staff, a full time classified enforcement staff, and a full time classified administrative staff position. And the appropriation for that would be $628,867. And then we also have this intent language with relation with regard to fiscal year '28, that 1,400,000.0 be distributed from the child care financial assistance program to OPR for the initial licensure and application fees and licensure renewal fees for all early childhood educators practicing in programs regulated by CDD. So meaning that CC fat money would be used for the initial license fees for these professionals. And then as you can imagine, the effective dates are here because we have the board taking effect before everything else. And that brings us to the end of the bill. This, the actual licensure piece would start on July.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It's a big bill. It's a big bill. There's a lot people. I know that there are a number of folks who are very enthusiastic about it. There are some folks that have concerns in particular with respect to what child care providers have to do, individuals have to do, and then the term educator. I just wrote down a whole bunch of different terms we could talk about. I'm sure they've been through all of them and this is gonna be a, well this will be a good bill to understand next steps for that profession. It is an important profession. Any questions, committee, Katie? OPR will be in. We'll have different folks in who are currently working in the field. If you can get them in, we'll have Building Bright Futures in with Morgan Crossman. I talked with her the other day about it. I'll have to have a, you know, a talk again. And then we have CDD, we have AOE, we have Let's Grow Kids who've been working on this even though they're disappearing, but Allie Richards has indicated an interest in testifying on it. So we have a long list of folks. I can straighten up a question. And I can go ahead if you don't mind. Katie, was there ever any talk of having a certification fee, sort of another tier in the agency of education? Can't remember if we ever talked about that.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm not recalling it coming up any static of ops last year. I don't know if it's something that OPR considered.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, I know it's helpful to have it in here just given our experience with childcare. That's a good question to ask when OPR comes in and also when others, you know, everyone. Yeah.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I do sort of, in general, but not the big childcare bill, the one we did the preceding year that asked me a lot of reports. There were, there's a language, I think in two places, about asking AOE and DCF to work together to the status of early childhood education within the agency of education. So that is sort of related to your question, and I can't recall when those reports were due. But if you're interested, can dig around a little and see what I can find.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. I mean, there's always been tension. Yeah. I couldn't get that. We we should have that as a base for us. I I asked to have some of those things put into that bill because of the tension between AOE and DCF and the oversight regulation and now OPR has stepped in so. Right. It's another world. Okay. In fact, we'll we'll take that off. Thank you for that. Yeah. Any any other questions?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: Why the different classifications? I don't see anything in the bill that, unless I missed it, that defines, it defines what their requirements are. But

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: What are they doing?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: Yeah. Why do you have to have a different classification? I didn't see where that applies.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, I moved over it too quickly.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Thinking that we'll get

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a little in-depth walkthrough of the complaint. I can

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: wait for one. Well, it's okay, no answer it now.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So this lays out sort of the educational and experiential requirements for Right, each of

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: the that is small, yeah.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then in the definition section, when it lays out each provider type, it tells the type of responsibility they have within the classroom. So an ECE three would be somebody who is a lead teacher and they would be supervising the ECD one and two. The ECD one, for example, plays an assistant role within the classroom. So, it doesn't mean that they can't be, fleshed out or improved upon, but the definition is where it lays out responsibility.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Just trying to think about in terms of the

[Rep. John Benson]: so called day

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: care facility and center and how these different roles fit into them.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah, that's a really good question because when you think about a daycare facility and people moving from one responsibility to another, so do they have to stop and say, well, that's not part of my license? I didn't know.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: That's what I was trying to figure out how

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: to

[Rep. John Benson]: get together.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: Well, just one thing that we've been living here for a little while up in at least an hour, connected to the woods, is how hard it is to get actual day cares. And I'm just gonna say that I'll I will have some concerns about if these if this restricts in any way, any banner of new new people trying to provide that service. I'm not saying it's not a wonderful thing, it's a great thing, I'm just telling you there's a real need for them up where I am. I'll

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Good question. This is a fundamental question.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Member)]: Yeah. I think that also leads to cost. This is looking to increase cost of daycare and so which is already very affordable for many families. Availability and cost, I think, are two things we have to consider.

[Sen. John Morley III (Member)]: But I figured we'd dig into that later, you know.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: It's got a lot of people on her testimony about those things already. You get it. Yeah. You have people who you would like to testify, Melissa know and as we go through the list, we'll try to bring in some of those. Know, sometimes we get more than we can handle or you know. Any other questions for Katie on this one? It's a little complicated.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There's a lot in this though. There's so many pieces to discuss. Having DCF in and looking at numbers of where there are providers and where there are gaps in services. What is the right terminology? What is the right education level? What is sort of the right lever for grandfathering people and for who are currently practicing in the field? So, yes, is a lot to discuss here.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Good, we're gonna keep you busy. You will. It's good. Great. So, you know, we have a few minutes here and we have guests in the room, I mean, with your name tags on and I'm wondering if you would introduce yourselves and say why you're here and who you represent. So we'll start with you right here.

[Elena Born]: Hi, I'm Elena Born. I'm here with the Snelling Center for the Early Early Childhood Leadership Institute. I'm currently the director of program in Jericho and live in Grand Isle. So interest in both areas.

[Rep. John Benson]: Mhmm.

[Lindsay Shell]: I'm Lindsay Shell. I work at Sharon Elementary School as preschool director and preschool teacher. So I was licensed through the AOE, but I still operate under CDD because they overlap in a public school. And I'm also selling psychic. Yeah.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Anyone else? I'm Stephanie Slaton. I'm the executive director of The Family Place in Norwich. And we are a parent child center, but we also have a small early childhood education. You should know which child is going to be. My

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: name is Shannon Edmonds Folsom and I actually came because I knew Central Memorial is going be here at least in my center. I live in New Coat City. I am the childcare manager for J Peak Resorts. So, I I'm very interested in all of this conversation. Very briefly, yes, ski industry childcare are licensed.

[Shannon Edmonds Folsom]: Oh, they are? Yes. Okay. I have some more information if you're interested. Absolutely, thank you.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: So, this is sort of serendipity, isn't it, Austin? This is fantastic.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Have been.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Did one of you contact me about I did. You did, I thought it was you. I know you've worked in Jericho

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and you lived very well.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Mhmm. But and so what would be really helpful is if you as you listen and learn from this bill, to have one or more of you come in and testify on the bill, your perspective. So take some time to look at it and it could bring us some help. Awesome. Would you do that?

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Absolutely. For sure. Wonderful. We're all very passionate about it. Oh my god. Because we wanted to be here.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: If you do that, remind Calista. You'll send a note into Calista, our assistant, it's right on our webpage, and then let her know that you were here for this, and then we'll try to keep you all here on the same day. I think it's fun that we can get into a conversation. It's great. Thank you for being here. Yeah.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you for your center. Snelling Center work. Thank you.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Very good what they're doing.

[Rep. John Benson]: It's a cheerful.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Thank you. Well, I can see a lot of knowledge. Maybe I've opened Pandora's box. Okay. Okay. They're all very nice.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I know. Oh, I know.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Okay. Anything else we need to know, Katie, this one?

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. I'm wondering if you want to also cover the autopsy reports today.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: Yeah. We've got two other bills, and Senator Hardy is actually the lead sponsor in both. Is she available, of course, if she got a word back that she can do? She's still alive. At eleven? Yes. Okay. Let's go off the line. Okay. We'll come

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: back on here. Then we just

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Chair)]: wanna do some different I'm pretty sure. Right? I only have one of them.