Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yes,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: good afternoon. Welcome back to the Senate Committee on Government Operations meeting of Tuesday, 05/19/2026. We're gonna take up H-six 86 now, which is an act related to expanding identifications of certain lobbying advertisements. There has, to my knowledge, not been any change to this bill since we looked at it last, which was last week, but we did get another witness to welcome him today. So Matt, you could definitely, if you wanna take your coat off, by the way, feel free. Don't have ask permission.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Well, appreciate that. Must have care. Yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I've got permission on the Senate.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Well, I Please. Need I've got

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: 1.1. Is that like you guys are working? Yes. Okay. Well,

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: I appreciate the privilege. Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So Matt Musgrave is gonna join us. He is the regional director for Vermont of the Associated Builders and Contractors of both New Hampshire and Vermont. And he has had at least the benefit of being able to look at this over the past couple of days and interested to see what his thoughts are.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Great. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. Appreciate the invitation as well as the opportunity to relieve myself of blazer. It's pretty hot here, and I'll work on the institutions committee about getting all my contractors in here to to fix their area snare.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: There is a missing part on the I checked with Sid, and there's a missing part with the air conditioning. Every year They come up Yeah. With something like that. I know. Just we have to be patient. It's an old building. It's a and it's a but it's a new system in the HVAC system.

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: Think you just put it in.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: What kind of that is what I heard. Okay.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Okay. For the record, Matt Musgrave, and I think it may be the building telling you to get out of here until your summer. So I've had the opportunity to take a look at 6 H 686, and I actually just wanted to thank the committee for making some changes to the bill. When it passed out of the house, I wasn't particularly excited about it. Just the way that it was written, it would kind of worry me that speaking my tomato plants might have to be a reporter. So I actually really appreciate the changes that you made here. That was that was in chess. I don't talk

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: to my family.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, do as long as you're not paying to

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: talk to your parents. Well, I think that was the distinction that I enjoyed and that you you tied this amendment that was written to I think what the original intent of this law was is some clarification so that you understand what's going on, what's being said, how that's being done. I just had a couple of quick small changes, but otherwise I would compliment you on the bill. In the changes that I'm suggesting are in opposition to what you're trying to accomplish. It's just a clarification too.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: So that I understand how to play by the rules because one of the things that we talk about is the distinction of lobbyists and association executive and educator. So we do a couple of those different things. So as you know, there's a lobbying statute covers anyone that's going to be persuading either, elected officials, government, or trying to get others to do so. So technically, I'm a lobbyist. However, I'm not what you would consider to be a contract lobbyist. I don't have multiple different customers. I'm an association executive. So my job is to work with the association. I do things like newsletters with safety information and educational resources. Sometimes I talk about laws and rules and those, but I wouldn't consider that to be lobbying. So that's why I wanted to talk today about how to maybe clarify this to understand where that works. One of the other things I do as an association executive is I work in elections as well. So that means we operate a political action committee both in New Hampshire and we'll be starting off here in Vermont. So there is some distinction of the work that I do with different hats that I'm wearing. So I just wanna make sure that I know which hat that I'm wearing and where to report to. So I'm following the rules because that's what we do. So the couple of small changes that I saw and hear that were relevant, and I don't have my glasses with me. I've been on the building long enough, but I did need glasses before. Sure. I remember that. I should be able to do it. Thank you. Thank you, senator. Glasses are glass. The first change that I saw here was in section two under two sixty four c in a one. There was a change to removing prior to final adjournment of a biennial or adjourned legislative session. Right? I just wanted to bring that up as a change that I would oppose and suggest leaving that as is. And the reason why I suggest that is because when you look at the original intent of the law, the way that this was written, it was very clear that the authors were suggesting that has had to do with lobbying during the session. And this could be confused later on with electioneering work that we would do through our political action committee, which so for example, if I was to take out an ad for a thousand dollars to support a candidate, I would potentially have to report under two different locations. One, both within the secretary of state's office. So one would be I'd have to report under my campaign finance spending that I'm spending that money taking that out, specifically all of the same information. And then at the other side, I'd also have to report it as a lobbyist. So I just wanted to I think that might be a clarification that's a little bit different and that the original authors were thinking lobbying happens during the session. Electioneering is a little bit different. So that's that's one suggestion that I would make to the bill.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Is that sort of

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: part of

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: that at all?

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: The

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: entire bill. That'd messed up.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: That would be all year long. Okay.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Agree me all the time.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: No. No. We don't have to agree, but I'm just that is the reason for the bill, which is to make it apply all year long.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Okay. So To check and to submit that would the answer to that for someone like me be that at the end of the session, I would get rid of my lobbyist registration and be in electioneering? Is that I

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: think you have to have to blunt. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That would

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: appropriate for me to

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I think it would be a question for the secretary of state, but if you're if you are sending out something on behalf of a candidate, this would not apply. It says that it is designed or calculated to influence legislative action or solicit others to influence legislative action.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: So what if I said to my members that are you interested in housing development? As something that's related to a law that exists and to support certain candidates that would support that, that that would be electioneering, but it would also be lobbying at the same time. Correct?

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Well, if you're lobbying if you only if you're lobbying

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: for

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: a specific bill or measure during the course of the session. But if you're supporting candidates during the course of election season, I don't think

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: So if I said that if I said that a certain candidate was super supportive of the apprenticeship programs and that we should support that candidate because they helped us pass a law this year with the CTE programs that helped us expand on that. I mean, that is specifically talking about a bill in terms of electioneering. So just wanted to make I just wanna make sure we don't end up getting a fine.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I don't know. Tim, can you answer these questions? Because

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: Sure. I can talk about the law, you know, election law and campaign finance law versus lobbying law. I don't think it's appropriate for me to weigh in specifically. I don't wanna come across as providing legal advice to certain people who are not my clients, but I can talk generally about the possible purple in a Venn diagram between the two. If you wanted to take that seat later, I'd be happy to do that.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Okay. I would appreciate that. And it's just from it's not from a perspective of being argumentative. It's just trying to understand where the lines are drawn and what I need to do in order to stay with you know, to stay legal because that's our intent is to not cause problems. And I know that this that wasn't directed at me personally. I know that there's a lot of other stuff going on out there that is nothing related to me.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: So but, Matt, I think my understanding was that this was kind of actually simple, that is, and to not have a bifurcated sort of a a a during session, post session, but not have a bifurcated view of lobbying and have it simpler and have it apply all year long. Is that a big

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Tanya Vyhovsky? If you were, because I know campaign season is upon us. Yes. And I know candidates have announced and gotten endorsements. If you were to endorse a candidate right now, would you have to report on both

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: of these sides? We, as a practice, don't generally endorse. Yeah. And and by trade association, we have a political action committee that runs separate from association of volunteers. The fact of the matter is my association involves people of all different parties. So for us to endorse somebody, I don't think it would be inappropriate. And I also, if I was to endorse somebody, it would not be during this period of time because I think that would possibly cross an ethical line on my part. Election hearing against one of you in a seat that was to make a difference. You know? I I wouldn't have to know, do that. That's not

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: That's a long

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: That's so I wouldn't be able

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But I I guess my point is is it could happen right now under the current law that someone is electioneering for a candidate while we are in session and could find themselves having to ask a question of which do I report this to.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: So I could write a check today to a party. This is correct. Right. Right. But I wouldn't be able to get involved with it. Can't. Candidacy.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So As we're not talking about money, though, we're talking about advertisements. So maybe not you specifically, but currently, under current law, someone could put out an advertisement in support of a candidate that is announced. We are still in session. I'm not allowed. Applies.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Probably anybody but a lobbyist.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. I think they still could. They can't lobbyists can't give money, but they absolutely could put something out saying, hey. We support this candidate.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Oh, I'll agree with you. Yes.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And we are in session, so the law currently applies. So people are navigating this question of which do I report to already.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Right. And but as of adjournment, though, we're no longer lobbying on behalf of a particular bill, then we would be lobbying on behalf of a person. So or promoting a person, endorsing a person. So I think maybe that would I would ask for clarification on that just only because I believe words matter. And this is this is going to be in the green books. And I just wanna make sure again that and I and I don't believe the secretary of state's gonna be running around chasing us. However, I do know that this is something that potentially people that are counter to a belief system that we have could potentially walk it back and portray it as lobbyist activity because that is it does become somewhat subjective.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Senator Clarkson? Do you think we could get win? We could do it tomorrow. And see if the elections person is available to Zoom in now.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Show them she has questions. Language, as it came over from the other body, used the word communication. And that created some angst on the part of some people who provide newsletters, emails, would they be included in this?

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Yep.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And so Senator Vyhovsky, to her credit, took that under advisement and said, okay, we'll strike everything out that is not a paid ad. Gotcha. So this is strictly a paid ad, but your question about whether it's strictly about a bill or a candidate, I don't know that there's clarity in this yet.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: But that's why thought it would be It would be helpful to have Sean weigh in, I think.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But it is current law, but I'll just ask folks to look at page three of the bill. And the last, I get the part about, okay, from line 16 through 19, any enacted or introduced bills or any featured in the advertisement or campaign, But then the second one is any specific person featured in the ad or advertising campaign. So to Matt's question, if we're out of session, there's no bill anymore. Right. It's either been enacted or it didn't work. But the But there are candidates, and that's a person. So if there's a paid ad indicating support for a person, to me, that follows me in this bill. Am I not?

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Already, yes. I know this

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: new language. This was around the description. All what we heard is the description. Circitics

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: for example.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Oh, and all of the descriptions were things like, and her husband. So, well, yeah. We so we I was trying to drill down, this was language I worked on council with to try to be as constitutionally sound.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And number three is rule an opinion of support, opposition, or neutrality, but we talk about neutrality. Probability issue or Honorable shield issue. Or person.

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: Yeah. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think we may need to refine this a little bit more, or maybe not, right? Yeah, Senator Rutland.

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah, well I would just say, you know, I appreciate the work that you do, and I do actually think that it should all be reported, if it's gonna be pushing one agenda or the other. I think what I'm hoping for with this change is this kind of like pseudo time period based requirement that doesn't actually reflect what is influencing people. Because the length of our session I mean, this year is a great example of it. It's gonna go almost right up to the primary, it seems like. So the the parameters are variable, but the influence is the same regardless of the time. So while I do think it will make you have to do more things or potentially have to face kind of a decision point.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Spend a thousand.

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Oh, you said exactly.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: That's

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: true. Exactly. And it's not saying you can't do it. It's providing more information. And if anything, I think it will provide clarity for voters who go, okay. Wait. What the heck was that all about? Now I can look at it and understand. So I'm fully supportive of that as drafted version. But I do think you're right. It is gonna add more requirements for lobbyists. I also think to be a lobbyist or to be someone in this role is inherently kind of already unfair in our existing structure because my individual constituents aren't paying someone to come up here and lobby me. Your members are. There's an advantage. There's a there's a persuasion to having someone consistently drum beating on a certain topic that the average person can't afford to employ. Right. So I think it's really important when we're in positions of power to have as much transparency as possible about those financial exchanges because there's it's just such a dis it's not an equal fight. So it's information. And I I I would ban lobbying as a practice. Straight up. I'm like, no. I would join you.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We get more accomplished. I would join you. We'd get

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: maybe better things done. That is

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. And then maybe we pitch it to having staff instead or something. But I think this is the least we can do to clarify the strange timing that this bill the original law has in it. But, yes, it will require more,

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: and I respect your But position will provide. Transparency.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: No. And I I get the purpose intent of this. I'm actively watching a lot of the same stuff that you're seeing out

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: there in the ether with Yeah.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: No. But I

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: do want The spend more threshold is still a thousand dollars. So if I have an email where I support senator Morley for reelection, I'm not paying for an email necessarily or a Facebook ad. Have to pay for

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I You do have to pay for Facebook. It's usually like For $9,000

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. You're not paying that yet.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Which I actually think is part of the problem, which is why

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I tried to lower that threshold to zero. I just wanna make

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: sure that we're fully understanding what we're suggesting here. If there's any opinion being offered, but it's free, this doesn't capture. Correct? In other words I

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: would say so.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: An email or a newsletter that says, boy, that senator White, she's really on board, and you gotta vote for her

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: next time.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Letters to the pays anything. Yeah.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Letters to the editor do not count. Those are

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: free and public things. Because of a lot of these questions is why we took out the the new definition of what is an advertisement to deal with when we have more time. This is really just clarifying what is a description.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And this applies all the time because there's you know, we're talking about campaign season, but there's also the off session between buying incomes that currently are not captured by

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: law. Right.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's true. Yeah. So it wouldn't be electioneering yet because Exactly.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Everybody get called back in during that time too. Yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And you're gonna come back the I mean, that's a that's a consideration.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Okay. Well, no. I I think I can I just I love clarification, but I don't wanna slow down the process terribly? I know that you have a lot more. I heard you talking about the yield goal a minute ago, so I understand that there's priorities going on in the building, but that's something that just to take into consideration as you think about.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Was that the only thing that

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: No. Just two other small ones. I did hear senator Vyhovsky mentioned that she wanted to reduce from a thousand to zero, I'm fairly certain my next comment Yeah. Is not going to be supported. But I was going to suggest possibly modernizing the cost there because a thousand dollars today isn't really a lot of marketing. I would potentially suggest 5 or $10,000 because that's where you're talking about a real marketing of for a thousand dollars, you're maybe gonna reach a couple 100 people as opposed to, like and that's my membership. Right?

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: But that could be all of the town of Pant, which

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: we just did. Well, it's also with the with social media that is just not sure why I can reach tens of thousands of people with $50 on Facebook ads.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Yep. Yep.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yep. Yep. So I I think that actually I would I think you you're

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: I'm just gonna stop.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: You can get I'm

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: to I'm face. I've got

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: this down for a thousand 500. I just haven't gotten to this one yet.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: I'm gonna stop there. One one other one, think we can hopefully agree on this one. It is in section three of section three

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: The effective two.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I can't

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: see Roman numeral three. On the back, you have the opinion of support, opposition, or neutrality. Yep. My thought would be on neutrality. That gets complicated for me because you pass a lot today, and it's on, let's say it's an employer mandate for getting a break in x amount of time, whatever that may be. It's beholden on me to notify my entire membership through that. And I might take out a periodical or I might take out some larger ad in order to inform them of the specific facts of the law without giving an opinion so that they can comply with the law. That's where I would suggest just removing neutrality because by it being neutral, it actually goes against essentially what the definition of lobbying would be, which would be to try to motivate someone to your opinion. So if I get out of one chain, that might

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We had some be discussion with that. I I brought it up why anybody would spend money Yeah. To say, really don't want a position. I I yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I think my concern with that is and I know you would not do this, but there are plenty of organizations that that put out the facts of a bill that are in fact not the facts of the bill.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And I think it is important to know, is this a trustworthy source who paid for this? And it's you know, again, I don't expect you would do that to your membership because you want them to comply with the law. And I've certainly experienced in my six years in the building with the facts of something have been put out that are absolutely not facts of something. Right. So they might put, like, you know, x y z lobbyist neutral. But then when I go look and I'm like, oh, well, know x y z lobbyist has a pattern of misrepresenting the facts.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Right. Well, I think when I look at this again, I go back to the information that's necessary to get out to people regarding safety, regarding past laws. And it's just this is my opinion. I it it's not lobbying. It's and I understand that there are people that are doing that. But if somebody was intentionally misleading someone and you were able to prove that by fact, then you'd be able to point to opposition or support and say, that person's lying. What they're actually doing is supporting x, y, and z.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But you don't know who they are. They didn't have to report that they did.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Well, you'd be able to see the ad because you said that you saw those things that people were lying, that you could identify that. But might be reporting out to somebody that like, here's a good example. We're having a a heat safety training that's gonna go on, and I'm gonna spend well over $1,000 on materials so that people under that they can walk away with materials to understand and be able to protect that heat standards so that they don't violate OHS five a general duty clause and end up with a $120,000 fine. So that's not lobbying. That's education.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, I don't know that that would be considered lobbying. So you're looking so if you look at the definition of lobbying Yeah. Advertisement that is intended, designed, or calculated to influence legislative action or fullness of others to influence legislative action, that doesn't count. What you're looking at now is is what we this is a totally different section of the bill. It's not changing the definition of lobbying. It's saying that when it it you've met this threshold and you have to report, you need to report these things.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Mhmm. So, again, that same comment that I made about whether that become lobbying is if all of a sudden I'm you identify that I've said something and it's not true, let someone could go, let's say it was a competing organization or somebody that didn't like my member organization and they saw me put out information on how to deal with the general five five eight duty clause regarding a heat heat safety, how is that going to back up if someone doesn't like me? It's not likely going to be one of you on the room that reports that it could be someone that doesn't like me and they could go make an allegation that I'm lobbying and go back and depending on who who is actually arbitrating this, they could make that decision whether or not I was lobbying based on the information that they got from somebody else.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But that that doesn't change the definition of lobbying.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Nope. I understand.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So you you would still and the you are not changing the definition of lobbying. That is not changing under current law. That is simply ex an explainer of if you are lobbying and you have to report, these are the things we need you to tell us.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Gotcha.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: And so

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: it's not changing the definition of lobbying. So current if if that behavior currently isn't lobbying, it still won't be.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Okay. Okay. I just wanna be I'm just asking these questions now before I pass the bill, not trying to be arguing.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Nothing change the definitions of either lobbying or educating or advertise.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Yep. Okay. I just wanna make sure that that that's not the case. I've that was what I was sent up with by my group. Those are the questions that I had. Yeah. And I really respect the time that you've given me to come in and ask those questions and and consider them and talk through them, and I'll rest with a reasonable assurance that the secretary of state won't come after that.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't think the secretary of state's gonna

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Was that

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: o for three?

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: That was o for three. So that's fine. You know, I I I really appreciate the opportunity and and to spend a little bit of time in the committee. And mister chair, if I may, after you have your lunch counsel and, take your vote, if I could have thirty seconds in the chair Sure. After I get Absolutely. Done on a separate topic.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Absolutely. Thank you. I don't know whether the other members of the committee would be, open to this, but it's just a suggestion. First, we should probably have Shan Shan come in. Yes. Who's the secretary of state And of then the other one, instead of neutrality, could we have Tim draft something which says this does not include educational information provided to members of a particular group and how to come into compliance with a particular state or federal

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: legislature. I mean, I'm happy to

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have some draft that because I think the bill already accounts for that. It already doesn't include those things. Right.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But I sympathize with that neutrality. If you could draft something, strengthen neutrality.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't wanna strike the neutrality language for exactly what I've been But writing

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: then add a clause that says, This shall not include efforts to educate members of other people. Or neutrality does not mean that's good way. Fine.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: How how would you secure Yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I'm fine. With with the initial of criminal language given when Okay. Think that an employer already says that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sean Sheehan is gonna join us.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: It's on this whole thing. Could do that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think these are so there's three questions that I have about a specific person, whether that includes understand what libing is, and I understand what a paid ad. But if I send an email out or a newsletter or even a Facebook ad that says, that Senator White is, oh no, boy, you ought to really follow her from That's what she says. That

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Paid for by deli Capture. Yeah. Does

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: that get captured as and then a phrase about the neutrality not meaning taking an official position on something that's strictly being informative, educative, however you wanna phrase that.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Okay. Those are the go ahead.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Oh, yeah. No. I would like to hear from counsel about sort of the the purple area of the Venn diagram where this may overlap.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yep. And and Sean, I think Sean's joining us.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Hey, well, listen. We could have Tim come up first.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yeah. Great.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: So for the record, Tim Devlin, senate council. So I think it's good to start from comparing campaign finance and election law to lobbying law. They're sisters or cousins. It's good. You know, they're related, but they're not exactly the same thing. And the conduct which they could capture, and up until now, they're on different kind of time cycles, and it's pretty unlikely. Would this change or would this change lobbying advertisements be all year round or suggested session? I guess, yeah, yeah, it's worth considering what kind of conduct could be, you know, captured by both. So let's look at the definitions of both first. So we have lobbying, which we were just discussing. Mhmm. And to recap here the so lobbying means to communicate currently. It says orally or inviting with any legislator or administrative official. Here's the key language. For the purpose of influencing legislative or administrative action. So has to be influence is the keyword, and then talking about legislative or administrative action, I don't know if well, I should say this legislative or administrative action doesn't have to be current. I think it's also forward looking, you know, something that could be coming down the line. Although, it's not explicit as to that. So there's some room for interpretation there, which could be either tossed out by the courts or left to, the enforcing entity to, you know, take that into consideration when they, may be exercising their kind of pseudo prosecutorial discretion

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: here.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: And just a note, secretary of receives information on this, or is the HNA who would be investigating it forcibly violations of lobbying law. So just kind of putting a pen in this idea of influence of legislative or administrative action. I should just say the rest of these all being things are kind of different varieties of that too. So trying to marshal goodwill for the influence of that outcome or have solicitations of others to do kind of the same thing you might have, etcetera, etcetera. So let's turn some definitions of electioneering communication prepared by the law. This is going to be under ten seventeen, section twenty nine zero one definitions. So electioneering means any communication that refers to a clearly identified candidate for office and that promotes or supports a candidate for that office or attacks or opposes a candidate for that office, regardless of whether the communication expressly advocates to vote for or against the candidate. This also include communications published in newspapers, periodicals, etcetera, etcetera. Yes. That just has a long list of various modes of communication. So for lobbying, we have the purpose is anything that is trying to influence legislative or administrative action. Here is more candidate focused and also hinges on are you supporting or opposing, essentially, that candidacy. So where can the same communication come into play in both? It's question. So we would have, something like, okay. Influencing legislative, action would be

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: just

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: kinda think out loud here while advocating for a person of, saying, you know, both know for candidate a because they will be considering this big hot topic issue coming up, and we should think, you know, that should be, voted for or against that's the influence part, or you're mentioning the candidate part, so therefore, it could be the both. Possibly. And so if it does fall in the both, depending on the other requirements and thresholds here. You would either have to, you know, kind of the regular campaign financings. We've actually got the thresholds of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. $500, I think, is what we have for rents or pay tax and things like that. And then on the other hand, we'd have the thresholds for who has to register as a lobbyist, which I think is also $500 and has to be picked up within a certain time period. So depending on the specifics of the communication, it's possible that you could fall into both because you'd be

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: You know,

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: at the same time, making an electioneering communication and trying to influence legislative or administrative actions. But I will say that the idea of influencing legislative action, administrative action for somebody who isn't in office may be also kind of a stretch because we're talking about candidates versus office holders. There's nuance here, and I can't say definitively exactly how the book should shake out because influencing legislative or in the true action is, purposely, I think, you know, broadened scope as to capture wide variety of major lobbying efforts. So those are my kind of opening thoughts on it off the cuff. So I didn't hear you mention any expenditure when you talked about electioneering. Sure. So expenditures in electioneering, so those have to be there's thresholds for, you know, when we would have to register as a pack, and you would have to report, subsequent, you know, according to the regular schedule put up by the secretary of state. Statute The here to be reported to the secretary of state. The threshold so, you know, if you were spending $500 Okay. Well, So I'm just gonna put a pen in the the the elections about this month through changing that and the law as we've kind of discussed before, to $9.80. And so it's the same threshold. So if you're expending up to that, you know, it's not let's call anything below 500 de minimis market area. It's the same thresholds for both pretty much when you have to register as long as or as a pack. And then the kind of there'd be some detail about exactly how that money was spent to be required to be reported in quarantine. Each track as lobbyist or as a PAC. But I'm not sure if I'm answering your question.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Trying to see whether this bill expands the requirements for electioneering. I understand that it does for lobbying. But as Matt pointed out, he's not a lobbyist. Right. He's

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: If you're electioneering, it doesn't it won't really affect electioneering. It doesn't affect it at all, I can say. Okay. You if you're creating some sort of collectionary communication, you'll have to abide by the statutes. That's written in the Marble parts. Modified in the number belt. Know I was hoping. Yes.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: You can happen to stop you out. Sure. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Does anyone else have an ability to phrase that question a little more expertly? I'm just I'm trying not to bring too much into it, but I wanna make sure we've excluded what I don't want to have. In other words, if somebody is writing a newsletter, I suppose they can do whatever they want in that in terms of expressing opinions for or against a particular candidate or a bill as long as they're not paying $1,000

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: They're paying a contractor to publicize their newsletter for 1,000 plus

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: dollars. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think the five of us all agree that at least I'll speak for myself. I don't have a problem with whether it's VPRG or the associated contractors of Vermont spending a thousand dollars to go in favor of a bill or legislative what you said? Legislative or administrative action. That should be reported. I I don't have any problem with that. That should be obvious to anybody. If the newspaper ad or the radio or the radio already makes you say we paid

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: for it.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mhmm. Same with television, if I'm not mistaken.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: But you do have the problem with the educational materials that are

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't think we specific purpose. Tim, is my Exactly. Agree on this that because educational materials are not trying to influence legislative action that they would not be captured in this

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: at all. Well I would probably agree with that kind concern.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: But there's one kind of educational material that's educating a k a the sharing an opinion about what that group supports as opposed to educating about who wants to best. This is how you

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: come in compliance with that. That would never be captured by this. It's not trying to influence anything. Exactly.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: It's a

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: respected form.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: If we're talking about education But education

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: is biased. Is not right. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: why don't we include the word person

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: in the building? Because a person is also an entity, right? I mean, it's a corporation. The reporting People of and businesses.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: So returning to what has to be, including that brief Okay,

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: your term is trying to solve all our problems.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: That would be, let's see, so we'd have any inactive or introduced pill, or any issue featured in the advertisement, any specific first person featured in the advertisement as well. So that could be a candidate. It could be a city legislator. It could be, you know, a national figure, it could be celebrity.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And again, it doesn't say you can't do it, and it doesn't trigger you becoming a lobbyist. It just, if you did do it, it has to be reported.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: Right. It's all, if you're spending a thousand dollars, which would be the reason you have to report it, you'd be already surpassing that $500 threshold, you'd already have

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: to pay. You'd be lobbying at $7,000 Right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But I guess my the concern was sort of that this somehow changed the definition of lobbying, and what I'm really trying to make clear is the definition of lobbying does not change. This is just the clarification of the information that should be in the report should the lobbying definition have triggered that you need to report.

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: Yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mr. Chair. Do you have it, I'm sorry. So when you first sat up here, it got a little funny for me because you talked, you spoke about lobbying and then electioneering.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Do you

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: mean, just give me a can you can you give me a random example of where

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: they they can cross? How they're crossing, how they're different, and Sean's here too. Electioneering,

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: electioneering, would be, you know, Senator X is gonna raise your taxes. Don't know on Senator X. Don't look at me. Lobbying. Having a consistent record of lobbying would be, you know, Bill A is gonna raise your taxes, vote no on it. You know, write your legislator to vote, have them vote no on Bill A. Now, where you can possibly cross them, and this kind of gets, again, into the possible nuance and definition of influencing legislative or administrative action, and can a candidate, you know, because, again, electioneering is only about candidates, would a would that legislative action try to influence would that apply to candidates because it's about in office or not? Would it be, you know, candidate a is gonna vote for s, you know, whatever one incumbents or they're gonna create a bill to do it, you know, vote against them because it equals, you know, taxing and such.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that's what I'm wondering, Tim. If we can straighten out

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: or maybe you need to

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: add more definitions to what legislative influencing is and administrative actions are. I don't know, because that's where it seems like it's getting a little bit confusing to me.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I like, even in Tim's definition, it feels like there actually isn't really much overlap in the Venn diagram, and it all comes down to can you influence a candidate to act on theoretical legislation? And the answer is yes. Well but the candidate could lose. So you're not influencing the legislator. You're influence like You're trying to influence the votes. Right. But it's not lobbying. It's electioneering. Don't actually see where I don't see where they cross because of this this sort of it their units.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: But you could be lobbying for measure. You could be lobbying for an issue or a measure, which is lobbying. It it could it might not be a candidate. It could be lobbying for the whole woman's solution set, for example. You could be lobbying for that as a and and support and and and not a particular candidate, but supporting that issue and having people

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: then support candidates. I don't see where like, but okay. So it's candidates that support previous enacted legislation. That's, like, okay. They supported it. Like, you're not trying to influence the legislation. You're like, these people are great. They supported this legislation. Like, you're not trying to influence any, like, legislation in inaction. Like, I just don't see where the Venn diagram crosses. Right.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Because you're either lobbying for a bill that's actively in play or you're Electionary candidate. Candidate.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And then they're not in their official office doing anything legislatively.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Mister chair, if I may, I think two things that come to mind that would completely alleviate any concern that I had. And then I think to your point, I believe that you're right. And I would love to see that education piece that you had suggested as a as a line four

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: Under that, just clarifying that that would make me sleep well at night. And then on the other side, to clear up any concern over electioneering or lobbying during the campaign session, could it be could you add a section in there that says, if this is being reported under a campaign finance report, it doesn't fall under a lobbying report or you can put it under your lobbying report and vice versa. I wouldn't so I wouldn't report it twice. I'll report it once and it all goes to your office either way. And that information is easily readily findable by the public. And there's no Matt made a mistake or someone doesn't like Matt, and then I have to go to court to argue the point that we're having here. You would just be very clarifying it so that there is no question when you're interpreting it later.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Don't have a problem doing that. Can you fashion some language that doesn't force somebody to, in essence, report it

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: twice? Does that language then allow someone to pick and choose where they report it and what they have to report?

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: You can have it you can draft it in a way where, you know, you can say, if you you know, so either you have to make the campaign finance disclosure. Right? So if disclosed here under campaign finance law and chapter blah blah blah, then you do not have to also file this that will require that it be filed there, but in they could file it both if wanted, but in such a But you would then, the way, phrasing, you could have it locked into campaign finance.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: If more of that makes the deal a little

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: bit bigger. Yeah, don't think it's gonna ultimately change any

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: of It may not.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So I think it, what I didn't wanna have happen, though, is have people get to say, well, which of these is more favorable for me? I'm gonna file a thing. Right.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So those two changes, I guess, Jen. Okay.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Senator Klitz. Well, we just need to have Sean in the room who kindly came over, and it would be helpful, I think, for Sean to clarify some of the concerns that were raised, really. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Vyhovsky, do you have something else from Tim?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I just, I'm wondering if we are sort of adding in this piece that it doesn't include education, which I don't really As long as it's crafted to mean the type of education we're talking about and not some of the other Yeah. But now we're changing the definition of lobbying. And I thought we had all sort of agreed that we were not going to change the definition of lobbying I at this

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: don't think we should I don't think we are.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. We are. If we're adding in a piece that says lobbying doesn't mean this type of thing

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: No.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Neutrality doesn't mean coming into compliance with an already existing law and just informing

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I thought that was education, that an educational piece that is educating people about how the new law impacts them. In But that's not lobbying.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So we'll never turn to the report. We don't that's why say we don't need that language. We are either changing the definition of lobbying or we don't need the language because that would already not need the report.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. But that was new language in Roman at three.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: But it's not about lobbying. It's about the reports. That's true. Right. She's a.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: She has. Yeah. But it's under the section of lobbying advertisements. It's inside that section.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right. So the way that that section will

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: roll a little b One. Happens

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: If if I am a lobbyist and I have done advertisement and I have to report, these are just the things I have to include. Right. It doesn't change what triggers me being a lobbyist or what triggers me being required to make a report. It's just if if one and two are true, my report should include this information. Or it has to include this. So it doesn't trigger this education piece because that already would not trigger one. It might trigger two,

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: but it doesn't trigger one.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And it has to be both. You have to both be a lobbyist and pay for the advertisement that is lobbying. So it because the definition of lobbying already excludes those types of communications, it would never be triggered and this report wouldn't apply.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: So if you had a compliance campaign that's informational again, do remember what was it? Is it the question would be, is it trying to influence legislative action or administrative action? No. So then it would be considered lobbying effort. And then, you know, e no matter how much you spent on it, you're gonna have to report it because it wouldn't be lobbying. Yes.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. You still sleeping well?

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: So I I feel I'm feeling better. So just to be clear, if I spent a thousand dollars and I took a copy of legislation that you have going through and I spend a thousand dollars mailing that out, is that education or is that lobbying?

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Are you a lobbyist when you're sending it or is it your contractor If organization you're doing it to influence

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: the outcome of how a bill is enacted or not.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: So if I use the section of law to say you should comply with this section of law that passed this year. And I say that in August. I spent a thousand dollars. That's technically lobbying.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. That's No. That's already an act.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: About all of Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Then and you're not yeah.

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: It's What if I'm compliance? People intentionally. Well, yeah. You're an educator. You know what? That's just Educating

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: people to the Like, what if a butterfly I think we we could sit here for six years coming up with every what if.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, we may. Okay.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Please. The education policy happens. Sure. Please know.

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I guess I would just say, I think for a lot of organizations who have, like, an educational component and a public policy component and a lobbyist component Yes. They tend to be pretty firewalled, or at least that's been my personal experience where they it's like, I can't talk to this person about my election, and I can only talk to this person about the policy. Mhmm. And the person who sends the policy email or sent out the newsletter via paper is not the same person who I'm talking to about election. So if they are the same people, then yes. I think and you're spending a thousand dollars sending it out. Heck yeah. People should know about that. But if you're doing the nonprofit angle of whatever it is, then, yeah, that's different.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I mean, I think the question I would has is if you sent a copy of legislation in between year one and year two of oh, no.

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Tomorrow. Yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And said you need to comply with this. This was passed on passage a month and a half ago. Would you have to report that as lobbying?

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. Versus if you You wouldn't have to

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: report it now. You wouldn't have to report it Exactly.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Tanya, I think you do have to do a

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: lot of these what ifs. I'm sorry.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But we could do it all day long.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. I know. But I

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I think when we

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: start to get into these nitty gritty, very what if I did x y and z? Okay. Well, what if I did like, what there's always going to probably be a situation, but we're so deep into the weeds. Is it gonna apply more than one person one time? Probably not.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So can these people, Matt or any other entity, just call up Secretary of State's office and say, I need guidance on this?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I can't answer that. We've got Sean in

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the I'm to answer that just thinking that would solve

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Can always call me

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: make a difference.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Because there's a long only a four page bill. It seems like there's a law going on. Answer that.

[Unidentified committee member (likely a senator)]: Yeah. I think that well, we can certainly develop FAQs. Let's introduce points to oh, sorry. Sean Shan, elections director, secretary of state's office. We certainly develop FAQs.

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: We have the guide guide to lobbying and guide to campaign finance. We can put pieces in here. There's a level, you know, we we get to. We try to keep FAQs at a broad enough level. We get tons of very specific questions kind of looking, and we don't give the legal guidance in a volatile campaign finance of laws. I'm supposed to report every dollar if I have a sale and get

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: this money. So, you know, we

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: don't get into that, but certainly high level, we can give give guidance and give give FAQs. And I think joining the party a little bit late as it came in from where I heard, I would just say certainly to the the point we don't like choose your own adventure either. We would like to, we would state it here and say, definitely report campaign campaign finance, these with the circumstances, or if you if you haven't already reported in campaign finance, something like that to ensure that everybody's reporting, but there's also a consistency in not not choosing. We we like that, and we we make sure that was clear throughout the the FAQs as as well. We've thought about this language of how it'd be how it'd be implemented in the report right now. Advertising reports have a description field, which describe the activity where we would bring in the, you know, the specific directions of what to make sure the description includes each if it's this one, you know, three three items to be sure to hit and so forth. So I think those are the pieces we've we've thought about, and certainly, we would gear our our education, our training of lobbyists, our anything communication we do around providing examples of how we feel about what to put in the description field. So you heard what Matt testified in terms

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: of he's kind of got more than one hat, and as long as the FAQs can answer on what hat he has to report, I think we were comfortable. So it's lobbying and electioneering. And educate. Yeah. And educating. Yeah. Those all hold. Yeah.

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: And I I thought let's have counsel. I'm gonna give a good example of that, a hypothetical where they could answer a sec. Right? It seems fairly unlikely. I think most advertising that's going there, even if it's saying vote against this candidate or vote for that candidate, that that would clearly be electioneering. It's more likely they'd say vote for this candidate because they're gonna lower your taxes. Vote against them. They're gonna raise your taxes

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: and

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: so forth. That's not lobbying because that's not a specific piece of of legislation. But I think you can make it extra clear that because you're reporting the election year, you're reporting those campaign in your campaign finance reports first, that if you've already covered it You don't have you don't have to report it in a second second place. So I think that could be explicit enough in the in the law, and we could certainly reinforce that in our in our education of both our campaign finance guide and our lobby. Okay. Great. He'll show

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: for how long this

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: He has. So,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Tim, I guess your charge is still to

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: come back with

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: some language. Sure. I'll I'll let the education neutrality thing go, I guess. I still I don't like that word because it doesn't express opinion. It's an opinion of neutrality.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Well, an organization that's saying neutrons.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Then why pay money to do that?

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: They may not. They may not. I think only a fool would do that. But, hey,

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: there are lots of fools in this world I have learned. But

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the other one about the redundancy of reporting, I think, is crucial.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So what we've agreed to is if it has been filed

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Either way.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: In the camp no. I think what we agreed to is if it's been filed as a campaign finance report of election hearing

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: to lobby.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And there's a question of whether or not it might also be lobbying. They don't have to also do the lobby. You're not letting

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: them choose their own adventure. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I that like that. Falling asleep, which No. That's one gripping reality. But

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: it's transparently somewhere. So it's one Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's it's

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: a fun factor. It's like Right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Again, I don't think it's actually gonna

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: happen that it would be both, but I'm fine with that. Next year means

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And you can either fashion that today or tomorrow. We can move this tomorrow just as easily as today. Yeah. You got it, Depending on what else you have in your pocket.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I may not have enough time to do it today.

[Tim Devlin (Senate Counsel)]: Okay. That's fine. Yeah. Certainly.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And who knows? Somebody else may say, Hey, wait a minute. I want to testify.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: That's why I want hold it up now.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I thought we had also burned away that code.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Need to. So you know what? These are concerns that nobody else has mentioned, so I think it's important we answer. Yeah,

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I'm impressed, Matt. So I'm actually

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: I just want to make

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: sure I'm following the rules.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think everybody does. Okay.

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: Then I think we're done with

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: six 86 at least for today. Unless you had something else, Sean. I didn't mean you walked you all the way over.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: What else do you have as far as Sean?

[Sean Sheehan (Elections Director, VT Secretary of State)]: Epic. No. I'm okay. I'm good.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yeah. I was like, oh, that ethics commissioner.

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Try to call make Make me

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Still is not here right now.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: I know. Anything

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: else for the committee today? Well, Rebecca, I hope you yep. Did you want that while we're live?

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: You can say or not. This is informal.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Informal. Okay. Please have a safe trip.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And an exciting Yeah. Getting to our I

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: think they're really gonna get married.

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: Well, that's I hope they both say I do.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: They really

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: It's okay. No. I always they've been together for eight years, so it doesn't

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I guess they've kinda decided.

[Senator Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. Alright.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: With that in mind, we will We'll be adjourn

[Matt Musgrave (Regional Director, ABC NH/VT)]: for

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the day and seeing all

[Senator John Morley III (Clerk)]: of