Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Good afternoon once again. Welcome back to the Senate Committee on Government Operations Committee hearing. Tuesday, 05/05/2026, the final item up for our consideration today is House or Senate Bill two ninety eight, an act relating to creating Vermont protectionism of voting. Tim Devlin is gonna join us. Shay Waters Evans, the representative from Charlotte will be as well. And also, I understand Lauren Hibbard from the sixth grader state office will be in a few minutes.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Oh, okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm looking at the bill overview. Is that still Up to date. Yep. Up to date. Okay. Let's I think we've walked through this actually already. Yes. Oh, I apologize. It has red and black and blue. Oh, that's right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It was the multicolored one.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: The shoe

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So did you have any questions about the changes?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. But it was when

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: did we walk through the changes? Bingo. You got it.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. Well, we can watch them again. Well or just remind us what the key changes are. Sure. Okay. I mean, how I have it. I'm just putting it all up.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right. Oh, they're right. They're here. Right. If you

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: could just high level just remind us as we go into this last bit on it.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Happy to. Thank you for having me, committee of reference. For the record, my name

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: is Tim Duffman by the state

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: of the house. You have a bill overview of draft 5.1. It's came out of house government operations from the military affairs committee. This was what the house ultimately passed, so it's still up to date. The text in red indicates changes that the house made to the Hawaii senate bill. So the first thing they did was they renamed it from the Voter Rights Act to the Voter Protections Act. Second thing they did was rearrange, is how I'll put it, the vote dilution vote, yeah, vote dilution or denial. Parts of the bill, those were substantially unchanged. The only real difference is that there was a a definition here of what constitutes a protected class. They had disability indigent to language minority group, as well as race, color, or race of color. The effect of that reorganization into seven piece BSA chapter 35 versus giving it its own chapter in panel 35 is that it will enable the attorney general to have civil investigatory authority so that they can look into it. And that's basically incorporated by reference. The next significant difference would be the alterations of the voter intimidation and election appearance sections. Yeah. The senate bill had four distinct criminal penalties.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: This essentially conflicts into one, borrowing the language that came from the House Judiciary Bill, age five forty one, which went through senate judiciary. I'm not sure if it ever stopped right here, but if you're interested in comparing and contrast, I have side by side of the four versus the one to really get into the queens, if you like, there, but suffice it to say, they're substantially similar in effect. The one here that the house injected, the five forty one, is more generalized than how it's we carry both on Cynthia, but very much covers captures much of the same misconduct. So let's see. The next part of the bill has to do with what was added or clothed. We have provision about voter checklists.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And Can we go back to page well, I'm looking on page three of draft 5.1. I still have an issue with the phrase membership in a language minority group. I don't know what that means. And I think without a definition, gets really dicey for a municipality to try to navigate. I

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: almost have a small flocks of backyard poultry.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, we could do some training here.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I mean, I would just sort of strike that. And I don't mind the adding of, or having a disability that we didn't talk about again. But I don't know what what that means, membership in a language I'm already clear about. It

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: is not defined. So a court would they'd approach you by saying, okay. Is the meeting inherently obvious, just plain language, upon the page, knowing that it's, okay, a known term of art, but probably looks in usage elsewhere in the law, even though it wouldn't be necessarily binding. So they look to federal equivalents, other states, but that would be more persuasive than purely authoritative. And so it could open up for the courts to create a definition of their own, fill it in here, or maybe copy patients on more, perhaps be a likely outcome. Is that

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the only reference to that phrase in the bill?

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Just in this subchapter, yes. I think it appears two or three times, the two again subchapter six, I know

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: this may seem to be a silly thing to worry about, but if I lived in a certain section of Vermont which had a great amount of diversity, and I was, in essence, by speaking English in a minority group in that community, could that be part of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes. You could ask for a a ballot in or access to a translation of a ballot in your language. Is that what this is doing? It's not what this is doing.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: It doesn't affirmatively, permanently require municipality to produce ballots in different languages necessarily. I know last time I was in here, said

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But what's it doing then? Point if it's not, like, having people understand who they're voting for and

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: It would that would be possible remedy that the courts could offer, but the statute's silent to exactly what the nature of the exact claim could look like. It'd be fact particular. Written broadly so that somebody could bring, a variety of possible Oh, this

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: is simple. Under. For what municipalities are required to provide. This is for

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Volt dilution offenses and vote denial offenses, yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Both at the state level and municipality. Yes. So again, I just, my solution would be to strike membership and a language minority. Leave the rest of it, race, color, disability, understood. Understand how to think about those means, but I don't understand what the other main is there.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: And if it would be helpful for the committee, I could go into one of the earlier Senate drafts where I think it was explicitly defined? Yes, we have designed this because, I mean, I mean, for me, membership in

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a language minority, it's an awkward phrasing of it, but it just means that you're a member of of a of a of a minority group that speaks a very that speaks a different language. So you could be Nepalese where they bring Woodstock in there. But it's but I guess I don't understand is this is giving people standing in order to be able to pump.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: This would enable an individual to essentially file a claim that they feel that

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. They've been If they feel that they haven't that they're not being served.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. And it would actually be a claim with attorney general who would then get into it. I'm sorry. I didn't wanna be discussed.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I thought we had, like, the the another part of the bill we had that we were working towards a QR code where you could get a ballot in almost any language that's spoken in Vermont.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: This bill doesn't go into the particulars of such proposal. But

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: does any of this also in the language surrounding vote dilution? So it has nothing to do really to valid access. It has nothing to do with how districts are drawn. Yes.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: So this language contemplates a few different scenarios. Racial gerrymandering is certainly one of them. It will sorry. Maybe pull up the exact language here. But it's also as much as it's about vote dilution, it's also about vote denial. And there can be other mechanisms brought into play where Yeah. Individuals could be denied a vote to write or the vote right to vote based on their membership in a language minority. So the statute doesn't specify what that is because it could take forms. It's written broadly to

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So it isn't just about the sort of traditional thought of leadership of kids, Gary Nagerie. It's also, you know, it's a Spanish speaker comes into the polls and the house clerk says in camp, but you speak Spanish. To me, that would be a denial of their right to vote. Right.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Sure. Yep. That that would

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Because you're a member of a minority a language it's an awkward phrase.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't disagree with you. But it does mean that if if you speak a language other than what notoriously speak in that area, it gives you standing on a claim to say that that was discriminatory. Right. Yes.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: That's me.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, I've made my case. I won't strike.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: If we could do that in conference committee?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Don't George. Extravagant. I'm not supportive of it. I don't

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: start because I think that is a way people discriminate is that, well, you know, you don't understand this.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And it's not affirmatively making ballots be available in another language. It's saying that you can't deny someone the right to vote on the basis that they don't speak English.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That they don't speak the language. That is correct. Right.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: And also, I would say that we would afford an individual who believes they're in agreement with the process of going to the party general's office and having them enforced. Really let's see.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I have record one vote.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Just rereading this real quick. Right? So no voting qualification or prerequisite to voting, whatever form those are taken. Again, just a narrative standard, so it's conveyable, aside from just soliciting for your job. Senator, why don't you go, please?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Fairly rural areas where I represent, say, a small town, 600 people up to that municipal. So somebody went in and they were speaking fluent Arabic or whatever, or Spanish, and if we didn't how would the municipal give me some examples

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: of how you think the municipal would be

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: able to solve or remedy the Yeah.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: How would the

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm just thinking of poorer communities. I don't wanna see them get caught up.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. I I agree.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: So I just I'm just curious. Sure. There's nothing in here that would require a municipality.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's supposed to require Right. And

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: wouldn't require a municipality to adopt a certain measure to alleviate? It permits them to do so, but it would prevent them from introducing a qualification or prerequisite to voting. So like a literacy test would be the historic example or Right. Or things like that. But it wouldn't be, some affirmative step that would be taken by, the municipality to provide additional services to a member in a language minor earning group. That being said, whatever, let's say, the FAFSA acts up, let's say, introduce a literacy test or something like that, court could come in, provide objective, relief saying, nope. You're not gonna do that. That applies to this provisional law here. And as a remedy, you know, not only provide that objectively stopping that behavior, there's some oral court perhaps, you know, they could impose some additional department of the town to

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Do have any cases like this?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: People But, John, I would think a thoughtful clerk if you had some, it

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: all spoke a language. I agree. Agree you already. A thoughtful clerk would call the secretary

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of state's office and say, I we have a family that's moved in who speaks Arabic, and they don't read English well. But do you have a ballot available? Could you make a ballot available to us in Arabic that or arrange for a translator for us? And I think that the secretary of state would then work with the town to provide that. I don't think this is I think a thoughtful clerk would help solve the problem. They and and they do now,

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: currently. Yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So you've mentioned

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: that we have so many thoughtful clerks. Really just tell clerks.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And No. I'm thinking

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: of possible other examples of what, so again, no voting qualification prerequisite voting for standard practice or procedures. So we have things like racial gerrymandering and the redistricting process, have literacy tests that's gone. Of course, it could be something like offering drop boxes in one neighborhood, but not another. Right. And we know that people of this language minority group don't speak it, so they have less access to it. That'd be a discrepancy in terms of where you can essentially or this local government can easily determine a group of people based on some factor of those being race, color, membership, or minority group, and then serve them differently.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you. We

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: can move on to voter checklists. Voter checklists then is right. So this will okay. Add a new subsection c to 17 BSA twenty one fifty four to require that any person wishing to obtain a copy of the municipality's portion of the statewide voter checklist or any other municipal voter checklist shall swear or affirm on the penalty of perjury that the person will not, a, use the checklist for commercial purposes, or, b, knowing they disclose the checklist to any foreign government or to a federal agency commission or to a person acting ahead of either of those in circumvention of prohibited person purposes for the using of the checklist. And then also you should note that the existing model only explicitly requires this for copies of the state line or checklist, but doesn't really provide any instruction for multiple portions of that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So is it existing law that you can't give it to a federal entity? Yes, the state.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Then there's some more process, but that's Okay. For the state purposes. The part where you would have disclosure for candidates for state legislative and county office. Here's where we have the additional hosting and receiving answering questions responsibilities being put upon the ethics commissions and some hyperspecific, instructions for exactly how they should be, presenting information, what information they're presenting, etcetera, etcetera. Then section five will suspend the enforcement of penalties for any candidates for state legislative and county offices who, duly, will be filed and will properly file the financial disclosure form. Then we go on to part four of the bill. Sorry. Can I just yeah? Suspense. Will suspense? Sorry. Will suspense. Yep. That's a typo. I'll correct that. Suspense. But I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: was the I just didn't Not creating

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: a sense of suspense. I

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have a sense of suspense as to when the ethics commission will ever be able have the resources to do its work. So,

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: I'll make that a typo correction for the next version of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah, budget correction too, while you're at it.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: Part four of the bill has to do with, safety protection for candidates. This looks somewhat similar to what passed out of this body, but there's more specificity introduced. This is, again, part of the campaign finance. Right. This is a lower definition of what entails an expenditure, and now this will explicitly include that expenditures may include those expenditures that are incurred for the provision of monitoring systems, protective detail, and cybersecurity related to a candidate's security. It was just for candidate's security for for it's a on it. It does.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And that's it. Questions or gentlemen? Okay. I don't see representative Chittenden here yet, but Lauren walked in perfect timing,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: right when we're chatting about section four.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And we'll certainly give Lauren a no. An opportunity to weigh in. If anybody has questions for Tim, now would be the time because this might well be It. The last iteration before we decide one way or another. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So I I appreciate your request, and and maybe we can discuss that in

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: the subcommittee committee. I know two of us, everybody else is on your on your suggestion. Signing it to a special group. Signing to the ethics commission the whole day. No. Page two, your request to suggest that we strike the membership with.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, just seems to me to be a

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: unnecessary and vaguely worded. I think it's not a great language, but what it does for me is it makes sure that we

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: think if

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: if said something like

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If it's purposeful that you're excluding somebody because they don't speak the language, that you

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have the valid available, and then you've made no effort to try and solve that problem by calling the secretary

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of state's office and getting that ballot in Arabic or helping provide a transcite response.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: If it was worded in such a way that said, to the greatest extent possible, accommodations will be made for those that don't speak, I don't wanna say English, but who speak different languages kind of To me, membership in language minority group, does that mean you have to ask to be a member? I don't know what membership means. Tanya Vyhovsky?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: The question at hand was that we were requiring counts to do something, but we're not. We're prohibiting that being something that can be discriminated. And particularly on the point of drop boxes, knowing that many of our our refugee communities, many of our American communities often live in fairly tight communities, that idea of not putting a drop off somewhere because you know that that's a group of Nepalese speakers is really powerful to me knowing, you know, particularly in Burlington and in Winooski that those communities tend to to gravitate towards living together. And we're not in this bill in any way requiring the secretary of state or municipalities to do anything. We're saying you can't discriminate on And this so, I mean, I I think we could frame it differently or define it, but what it is prohibited, I think, is actually really important to prohibit. That's how I feel as well. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And do we have a Tim, what

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: was the definition that was taken out that we had? Because we had some issues.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: I was just looking through earlier versions of this, and I'm not sure if this term was ever explicitly defined. I I have to take a little bit more time to check.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. Because that'd be best. I agree.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It does sound odd, the word membership. So basically but I think we can't discriminate against people in other places too. You know, you can't discriminate based on membership iteration we've already made. Like, that's we use that in other places. It's not something we don't ever use. Well, we can also phrase it differently if that's

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, means another iteration.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: What?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I I don't think I'm Up for another iteration. Well, I'm not gonna die of the sort. I just wanted to point out that I thought it was very awkward, and

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I don't like it. But No. I I agree it's awkward, but I think the principle behind it is so Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That's sort of how I feel. All that is part of

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: it. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: thank you, Tim. So let's invite Lauren up. We're also waiting for Jay. Have two new sections of this well, more than two new sections, but two substantive additions in terms of, sections that were crafted by the House Government Operations Committee after this bill left the senate. One of them has, again, very specific language regarding the duties of the State Ethics Commission, and the other is a suspension of penalties for those running for office who don't highly. It doesn't say that they don't at all. It just says delinquent violence. And I don't know what that means exactly either, but is delinquent a day? Is it a week? Is it a month? Is it a year? I don't know. So welcome, and I'm sure you want to have some ability to weigh in on this. I'm not sure where it's all going to wind up, whether it goes back and forth a couple more times or whether there's another request made for a conference on it. I don't know.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. We're in the process of taking it.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, for the record, my name is Lauren Hibbert, and I'm the Deputy Secretary of State. And I just wanna say, on hold, all of the amendments that the House made, my office does support. And again, I wanna affirm that with this voter protection bill, we have made a commitment both in this committee, in HGO, and to a wide variety of stakeholders that we are committed to bringing doing some work over the summer on making sure that we work on a true Vermont Voter Rights Act, and then bring you a bill next session that is more inclusive. I think to to the conversation you just were having about identification and protection for non English voters. We wanna really work on that. Disability, we wanna work on that. So there's quite a few groups that we wanna talk to and engage with and have a true a true voter rights act for Vermont, and then ultimately probably a true Vermont voter bill of rights as well. Those are two separate concepts, both I think important in a longer trajectory and made very clear by the Supreme Court decision of last week.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes. So that currently have something up on the website that is sort of akin to identifying what Vermont voters are writing.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I don't I don't know. I'd have to look at that, but I don't believe we do.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. There are It would be so great.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: There are states that have passed voters' bill of rights, Connecticut, couple of other states. So I would have to look into it. That's certainly what we would be looking toward. I think it's a good a good place for us to get to. So, section four. Section four is related to the ethics commission as is section five, as you all know. We are in my office is in a place where the Ethics Commission has been given the responsibility to create and maintain the candidate disclosure form. And when we saw that in conjunction with the penalties, of which the penalties are if somebody does not file an inset number of days, I'm looking at legislative council, I believe it's ten days. I don't have we created a flowchart of the statute, and I unfortunately didn't break this. We don't have a flowchart. Yeah. I'll ask for us to send you a copy of the flowchart. It certainly is on HGO site, but I'll make sure that you have it as well. I I ran up I was in a meeting and then was told you guys wanna be here, so I can't hear without that. Oh, okay. So so the candidate, after the filing period is done, has a period of days. I believe it's ten days Okay. Cure the the fact that they haven't filed the candidate, the financial disclosure form. And then after that, the the ethics commission reach, we have the burden of telling the ethics commission who hasn't filed. Then the ethics commission works with the candidate to say you haven't filed, can file. And then in that period of time, the candidate does not file after that period of time, then the ethics commission can start to issue fines. And it's on a per day basis.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is there anything else?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I guess I'm just curious, and maybe we may miss the law in the past, but I don't recall that given that the secretary of state's office regulates elections and is in charge of all things candidates and what you've just described as this ping pong of it gets filed with you. You give them information. They get like, why wouldn't you just be the the arbiter of the disclosure in your office with all other things candidate? Because the ethics commission also has no like, their purview is over state employees and electives. They have no real

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. Well, I think that is the way that this body has previously designed the ethics commission. We the candidate financial disclosure form in its creation always went to the ethics commission. It didn't it didn't it was filed with the clerks or with our office, depending on the type of office, but we were really the conduit for that piece of information to get to the ethics commission. I think in the balance of work and understanding that the ethics commission was newly being created and all of that, that we were the person who hosted it with the petitions and the consent of Canada, but not that we are responsible for enforcing whether or not somebody did it. And that was the decision of this body in previous sessions. And in fact, the change that this committee along with your sister committee made in last session, our office didn't testify on this topic at all, which tells me that if we were contemplated to be part of this process, I would hope that we would have been consulted. We did not testify on this topic on candidate financial disclosure. So, we are happy to be the vessel by which clerks provide us, or if it's statewide, we get it, the the candidate candidate financial disclosure form and provide that information to the public and to the ethics commission. It makes sense to me that it's posted on our website. I think part of the rationale for that was that's where voters are going to get information. But our core problem is some of the changes that this body made in the last session made the candidate financial disclosure more complicated, more complex, I think with intention and and desire to have more transparency over a candidate's financial situation. But the questions that candidates have are not black and white, and we do not have enforcement authority over the completion or the accuracy of this form. So our office really can't be in a place where we're answering questions about the candidate financial disclosure form for candidates because we could be wrong, and we don't want be in a place where we are disagreeing with the interpretation of what is a trust with the ethics commission's interpretation of what is a trust. And or we have had many questions around the form sent to our office. And the Ethics Commission is now actually telling candidates to contact us even though we've been very clear we can't answer questions about the ethics, the financial support. So it's been really difficult. We have created the ethics commission gave us a draft form that we put a cover sheet on to explain who to contact for which types of questions that we put the flow chart on the back of. And that we said we're happy to answer questions related to petitions, consent of candidate, any other candidates to questions. But if you have a question about the specific form, we cannot answer those questions, and we have provided it to candidates when they've asked or to the parties, and we are asking that the FTC commission put that on their website since they have expertise in that form. Interestingly, the questions are exactly the same as the executive officer questions that I have to So they they do answer those questions

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: for the executive officers. Senator White?

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. I guess, like, in a perfect world, I would prefer the secretary of state's office to be doing it since you facilitate candidate financial disclosures, like, literal financial disclosures. Like, when I go on my website. Like, you do that. So it feels like typically when folks have questions about their financials, it's also associated with their campaign financials. So I think in the ideal world, yes, you would actually be fully owning this and not having anything to do with the ethics commission until there's a violation. Because I think that's the difference is it's not necessarily that you can't answer, like, appropriate questions or anything like that. It's when there is an identified conflict with the information on the form that creates an ethical problem, that's when I think the ethics commission has a role. But even in that reality, they don't do that now. So it doesn't feel like there's a clear way. Like, I think if the goal is we want people to act ethically, we want proper documentation and information. I think you're fully staffed in a way that there's nobody at the ethics commission, so I prefer that. But at this moment in time, I don't disagree with the way that the house is the house is set it up because I do think that there is a need for the lack of clarity is very confusing. Yeah. So what I've noticed is that people are so confused that they're more prone to make an error. And because of that, I do agree with the lack of penalties, which is very different than how I normally feel about this. But I was so confused.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: But I do have one If I could just respond for a second. Yeah. Because there was a lot there, and I just wanna have that opportunity

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: respond. Sure.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I can see a world, in fact, in the nation, there's quite a few secretaries of state who are more responsible for candid financial disclosures. But there's a big difference between campaigning finances and candid financial disclosures. So I have to object to the term that we're fully staffed if we are taking on this additional responsibility. If we're talking about doing that, which is a conversation we can have, we would need an additional staff member because we are not I mean, the amount of work that our team is doing right now is very, very hard to explain, but we have absolutely no capacity for this So fully staffed we have we're fully staffed for the tasks that we are responsible for right now, but we're stretched right now for the tasks that we're responsible for right now. So we do not In elections division. In the elections division. Yeah. And remind us how many staff you have? We have six. And we're ballot proofing, working with the US post office. I mean, it's we're all hands on deck. We have every day something a deadline that needs to be done for the August primary and for the general election. We're already in the election cycle from our calendar. It it seems like it just all comes together. There's a ton of work on the back end of that in terms of working with our Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Printers. We appreciate.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I do just have one question. Yeah. But I appreciate your response. And I think yeah. Sorry. I appreciate your response.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I'm I'm not saying the ethics commission is fully staffed. I Oh. Put a lot of empathy for the ethics commission. It's cool. Dude, we have long supported secretary of state has long supported the ethics commission, its creation, its staffing. We do believe in having an ethics Oh, yeah. Ditto. But I do just wanna

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: point out, I do think the forms are different. And I think that's also a point of confusion because it sounds like the secretary of state's office has been saying this form that was sent to us, like senator Bob's got a form that is an older version of the form, and then there's a new form that was created by the ethics commission that is separate. So I don't actually think the questions are the same.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Could we I'm sorry. I don't know which form and

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: you So this is a form that and senator Vyhovsky could be better at explaining this. But long story short, there's been an exaggerated email exchange trying to sort this out, and I think that's where the point of confusion is. This is the form that senator Vyhovsky received from the ethics commission that is different than the one that's posted on your website. So We we don't There

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: isn't anything

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: on the website. Posted on our website.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. A form was shared with this committee.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, okay. My apologies.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: If I you shared some My my understanding was the sec secretary of state's office shared a form with us. It is posted on our web page. It is however different than

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: the one. The that we created is the most recent form that we received from the ethics commission, only with a cover sheet and with a flow chart on the back. It's not different. And in fact Oh. We went we went line by line, and Paul from the ethics commission confirmed that that that there was no difference in the forms. Oh. That the only difference was the cover sheet and the flowchart on the back.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Well, there is a form on the Internet Internet that was given to Senator Collamore that Is different. Is different. So ours

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: ours the one that we have given party chairs is this one. And all it has is a cover sheet on the front and the flowchart of the statute on that.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Okay. Might need to be sorted out because There are two forms where it's different that he got.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Can I

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: confirm that you have Maybe she

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: can because

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: we looked down, we're like he was asking me specifically about trusts, for example, which is called out in here,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: but it's not called out in there? Think that's the old

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'll try it on that. See that.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, this is

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That does have the trust

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: in it.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. This is So it

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: does have all it is all

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the same.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Did you find it? Oh, I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: did. Okay.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, maybe it's it's a slightly reorganized form.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Is this so I'm looking at page one.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Sorry. I have to go like this. So you did find They may be similar.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Oh, page one is exactly the same. So do

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: you have b? Because that was the one

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: that we struggled with. Preserve for us. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Yeah. So here's the other thing, Lauren.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. D. I see it.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We're now a week and a day past the opening thing for Yeah. Candidates to I went on over the weekend trying to be earnest to some degree and checked the Secretary of State's webpage. There is no form there. There is a link to the Ethics Commission page, which I put on. I went there and there's no form there either. So if I didn't have these forms already kind

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I don't want say we cheated by getting them,

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: but No.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: If a candidate who is running has no idea where to find it, You know, my only thought is eventually your office is going to feel tremendous pressure in the last couple of weeks because We are.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We are feeling it already. So what we have done is we reached out to all the party chairs and given this form to them and asked them to communicate with their candidates. And we've asked the ethics commission to post it on their website, but that's how we've managed this.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: They have not, to my knowledge.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: They have not posted on their website.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh. Senator Vigilkes?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I, again, circle back. Like, if I was a candidate, say I'm a New York candidate and I'm running as an independent, I'm going to go to the secretary of state's elections division candidate page to look for everything that I filed. Yep. And which is why I come back to this really should live with the secretary of state's office. Well And the ethical violations aspect, the ethics committee is there to rule on whether or not someone who has been elected or is serving in a state employee role has violated the ethics of that role. Right. As a candidate, there is no ethics code that they are beholden to. Right. There's morals and values, but there is no ethics code that they are beholden to. So the ethics commission to me just should have nothing to do with this. Well and I'm happy to have that conversation. I just don't think

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: this particular moment at this time in this session is the time to have it. And I would say if it were moved to the secretary of state's office, obviously, we would need a position, and it should be enforced by the attorney general's office, not the ethics commission. But because that's who enforces the MD and Finite violations. But That makes sense. I can't I can't We can't do that. I can't do that right now, and and we are in the candidate filing disclosure. If an independent candidate is running and they contact us and they're not part of a party, sender Vyhovsky, of course, we would send them the form. I mean, they they would get the form from us via email. We just really cannot take on the responsibility of answering questions about this form that we did not create, we're not responsible for, we don't know the intent of the questions, we don't know the intent of the legislature around asking these questions. We just like, we would be so far behind in what we're not capable of answering these questions. And at this moment, we don't have the capacity to become capable of answering these questions.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But can the form be posted with all of

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: the other candidate information on the secretary of state's elections division? Like, candidate. K. So so our request and what the house government operations asked the ethics commission to do is to post the form on their website. We'll link to the ethics commission's website. And I have seen FAQs that the Ethics Commission has been working on to answer these questions, which are excellent, and to have those posted on the Ethics Commission's website and say, beyond this, the Ethics Commission does not have capacity to answer any additional questions. That would be phenomenal because we would link to candidates. We put that in our candidate information. We would get candidates to the ethics commission where they could get the master copy of the form. It makes sense to only have it posted in one place. And then for them to have FAQs that are limited in nature around specific questions that we know people are gonna have and that they have answers to, because I've seen the answers on their website. So that then we can say, the ethics commission does not have any more staff to answer questions outside of this. Fill out the form. What we've been saying to people is fill out the form to the best of your ability. Reach out to the ethics commission. It doesn't seem like they're gonna be able to prosecute you under the intent of the legislation. And if you've made a good faith effort to get an understanding of the question, that it will help if you are if you're prosecuted. But that's what that's what we're saying.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I guess I don't understand why that if that FAQ exists, why that and the disclosure can't just be on the secretary of state's website. Like, that is where candidate stuff lives. It it proposing. Could be,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: but it we would just link it to the ethics commission because it's their form to create and maintain. That's the language that this body put. We're saying that was the intent of the legislature. It it didn't say the secretary of state would create and maintain. And it doesn't seem it's fairly easy to post something to a website. They updated their website language two weeks ago, so they they do this. So it doesn't seem insurmountable to have them be responsible for that and for us to link to their page.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. I'm taking it for your testimony that you support both sections four and five in housing version.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. I mean, I have to say we're we secretary of state is uncomfortable with five, but but given where we are and in the cycle and with the ambiguity, I think five is appropriate.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Without trying to put you on the spot. I do. And you no longer try to Yeah. Do Would it make any sense for us to, for one year, suspend the disclosure form

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Until we figure it out.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Until we yeah, I mean

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think Like I said,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: we're a week and a day already into what would normally be a four week process. If we don't figure this out in the next couple of days, the Secretary of State's office is gonna be deluged at the last minute with all of the stuff that's gonna be coming in. So maybe it's better to just put the candidate's consent form and the petitions and let that be in place for this coming election cycle, and then next year we can figure out a

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: In better January, they have each chamber has its own disclosure form to the clerk and to the secretary.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, yeah. Ours is a little bit easier. It's one page, and it doesn't go quite as deeply as this one does.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: But

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: it's just an idea. You don't even have to say whether you would like that or not. Because again, I didn't ask it to put you on the spot. I'm just suggesting that might be an alternative.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, I think this is not a question that has not been asked before, so you're not putting me on the spot or our office on the spot. I think we support having a candidate disclosure for the purpose of transparency, and we like transparency for candidates' financial disclosure and campaign finance disclosure, obviously, two very separate things. But if that was a decision of the body, that would provide clarity to candidates.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: For sure. Relief, I would bet. And

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: a little relief. I mean, the full reason why we have been concerned about this has been when a petition is received and when the consent of candidate is received, that starts a large amount of work, reviewing each of those signatures and making sure that the consent of candidate is legally correct. And so there is tremendous work, and we are anticipating 500 candidates. That's what we're talking about.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Tim Devlin (House Government Operations/Legislative Counsel)]: That's a lot of work.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Did you have something else, Senator Fields?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't, but it's such a difficult spot to be in at this point in the game, this is gonna shock people. I think I don't generally support the removal of the being able to hold people actually accountable for doing what you say, but I think that it's just not fair at this point. Yeah. That's true. To be saying, we're gonna fine you for not doing something that has been made almost impossible for you to do. Right. I don't know that I would love that I like the idea of just totally getting rid of the requirement, because I think most people will file it because they're supposed to file it without and and so we'll still have more transparency than we would have if we just got rid of the whole thing.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I agree. In fact, I will tell you, we are seeing that. People aren't finding us right now.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. They are. Thought you No. You could start now.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Oh, we've already I thought it

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: was no longer available on either website that that it was

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I've sent it to people who've asked people who have asked me if I have it more I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: know they shouldn't have to ask you. You're not secretary of state or the ethics commission. So I mean, the places they're going to get it. I thought it was no longer that it wasn't up.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. I think they could be on the PDF that was sent to me by the Ethics is? Commission. And so that's what

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I sent to the whole senate after

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: it was raised on the floor the other day was I just downloaded the PDF that the Ethics Commission sent me and forwarded it to all

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But that's not what a lot of do.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But that's not the way it

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: should be.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right. Oh, no. It's a mess. And some people aren't gonna be able to find it. And and so that is why temporarily, I do actually support not having a fine associated with not being able to do it. Yeah. That's I agree. I actually would

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: support Brian's suggestion, which is I would suspend it to the end of the day until the secretary of state and the ethics commission can come into agreement. The objective, I think we were clear on and we all agreed to do, which was have a disclosure for both candidates and then again as a as a as a senator, as a state rep. I think until we get

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: our act together, it's unfair for candidates to have

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to Go senator White and then Lauren.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. Can I just ask a question, though? These this aside, if I get elected, reelected, I still have to fill out the financial disclosure form Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: To the secretary of the senate.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: That makes me comfortable with either of these positions because I'm not even sure what a candidate other than misusing their campaign funds would be subject to before they're elected to? Like, how would you have an ethics violation as a candidate if you are not in a position of power to have an ethical violation? Like, that's what's confusing to me is a candidate could really only, what, accept money that is not appropriate. They're not taking votes. There's no exchange of of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: quid no quid quo. Quid up.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. Because there's no power involved. So that's what's confusing to me about this whole introduction of candidate as well.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: But Go ahead, sir. But And

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: so that's my my your point is why I don't think this belongs with the ethics commission. My my so I might wanna know as a voter if the candidate that is running is works for Vermont Gas. I might wanna know if the candidate that is is wanting to get my vote has a $100,000 of stock in oil. Like, it's not about violations. It's about information. Uh-huh. And it's about what possible plague pro quo relationships might exist should this pandemic be lifted. And that is why I don't I don't think the form belongs with the ethics commission. There is no possibility of an ethics violation. But I do think there's important information there. If I've got a candidate who is is all of their stuff is like, I'm here for a green new deal, but then I find out they have a $100,000,000 invested in oil, that's information I would wanna know before I voted for them. I would not want to wait until I voted for them. They're elected to the senate. They file their disclosure with the secretary of senate, and I find out, oh, hey. Look. They've got a $100,000,000,000 invested in oil.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. And to your point, I think it's a different purpose. Go ahead, Lauren.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I just had forgotten one other piece of outreach that we've done with the PDF that you all folks have posted, which is we also have given it to all the clerks. Oh. And so clerks are able to give it to candidates when they come in to with their petition or their consent of candidates.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So if they came in to the clerk with their petition and the clerk I I know every time know the county clerk has flipped through it. Yep. And then saw, oh, you

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: don't have this disclosure with the amendment right there. And we talk to the first.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So so then I feel a lot more comfortable leaving it as a requirement. I feel slightly less comfortable getting rid of the penalty. Because there's lots of opportunity, but there has been a lot of confusion and and Oh. The kindness in in me says, let's let's wait till next year. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Pamela, did you wanna make a point?

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yes. I'm a show this with the Clerks Association. We would love to wait the year. We would like to work with the Secretary of but

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: we are also not the ethics commission. And we also don't wanna be answering questions. We would love to be able to direct them to the ethics commission or a link on the Secretary of State's website to the but we are not the ethics commission and we do not wanna get caught up in, my clerk said, and we're wrong. I mean, there's how many clerks in this state? Like, it's just

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: a slippery slope in my in our opinion. What's to stop Upwork from simply saying I don't know? I think that

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: is what the clerks and the secretary of state are doing. But I think ultimately, right, at this moment, before we have the larger conversation, and, you know, if the ethics commission had this responsibility, it just move to the secretary of state. That would be a much bigger conversation. But until we have that conversation and whether the legislature wants that conversation, I think this responsibility was put with the ethics commission because the ethics commission was intended and is independent from any elected official. And that was the intent. Again, I wasn't part of the conversations that put

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: it in. So if we suspended this,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: requirement for this election season, Who is gonna be responsible for resolving this problem, clarifying it, and moving forward? This committee.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: My concern with if we suspend it this year is we're gonna find ourselves right back guaranteeing We're not going

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: be back. That is not what we're going do. We're going to

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have more five weeks in here. So that's my

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: question is how do we then go about it? If we're

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: going to suspend it, I'm happy

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to do that, but I wanna make sure that we're moving forward and trying to solve this problem. So just suspending it is not enough. We have to solve the problem.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I just don't have given where we're at with the ethics commission and the number of times we've kicked the can down the road to strengthening that work in any way, have zero faith that if we suspend this, we won't just die again next year. Although there's that concern as well. I would have less concern about that is if we also, before we left, appointed a group of people that were responsible in resolving the problem and bringing it back to us next year in legislation.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We could probably well, can you write that into the bill? Yes. Well, you can't force a

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: You can't bind a

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: future legislature to do something, I don't think.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We can solve. Can really can

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have them write us a report that we ignore.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: We can just get optimistic about why.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We can identify a group of people who are tasked with the job of coming to resolution on this and proposing a recommendation next year. We absolutely I know we can, but as you well know, you've been in this building a lot longer than I have. A future legislature can just ignore that report. Yeah. But you are the future legislature, and

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I am hoping you all will be, and you will. Lauren definitely will at her job, hopefully. We're we're I don't know. Know?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That's the one. I am She is, I'm sure, wanting to resolve this as much as the rest of I am just really uncomfortable given how it has been, like, tearing teeth from, like, a T Rex to get any type of movement in the right direction on this. I'm really I am hesitantly comfortable eliminating the penalty for a year. I'm very uncomfortable suspending all of it.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. So yeah. Because your concern

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: is we'll never read the statement. Yes. Because we are I mean I mean, how many times have we heard? And it appears to me that as a whole, this is that we that we we keep tasking do more, do more, do more. We're not gonna give you the resources to do more. We're not going to actually put into place any type of you know, we for campaign finance violations, we've been talking about penalties the entire time I've been in this building, and we've never done it. And so We don't have we're starting to roll back stuff that we already done and, I mean, we we did this. We rolled back some stuff a year or so ago. It feels to me like we don't really wanna invest in this work as a broader and so I I I'm hesitant on this issue specifically that if we roll it back, it's never coming back.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I appreciate that concern.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: The evidence shows me that that is a very good So then

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: you would be supportive of just simply for the selection, I

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: got eliminating the The appellate's consequence. Yes. We'll see how good we all are about abiding by the intent. This and I feel even more confident with that now that the secretary of state has let us know the different ways that this form can be made accessible to someone who is running.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But it's still not available on either website.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: It is

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: still not available on either website.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, this language would have it be what's available on the ethics commissioner's website. The language in this bill.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Would it have it be a bit Why is it? On the ethics Commission website. Oh,

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: no. I think it's gotta be linked.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, we would link to it. But the the master form would be on the Ethics Commission, and you have a commitment that we would link. We would say Did you have it one last time? We had the form on our website last time. Yeah. But the form was in a very different format and with a lot less questions. And the language was used to be prepared, and this body made it create and maintain. Oh. Last session, you took it prepared Okay. To create and

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'd still like to investigate removing it, but I understand Senator Vyhovsky's point.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, no, I have a question for Lauren. If this language is needed to have it on the Ethics commission website and previously it was on your website, I guess, like, I'm confused. Because previously, the testimony was is that's what we already were saying was going to be done. But now we need language to do that.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I'm sorry. I don't

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't have the So previously, you had said that the legislature had said that the ethics commission needs to have this on their website, needs but now you're saying this language in this bill says the ethics commission needs to do that. So I'm confused why this language is even needed because that's what

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: we already said. Because the ethics commission is not doing it. Hold on.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But you don't need to if the language already tells them to do that, we don't need to change the language to tell them to do that. I am now questioning if the language actually tells them to

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: do that. Well, think they would say that they do not have to put it on the website. So the language says that the ethics Commission shall create and maintain this form. Any reasonable reading of that language that you took from prepared to create and maintain is that the Ethics Commission would have more responsibility, not less responsibility with regard to the form. And the Ethics Commission, it used to say prepared, and now it says create and maintain. So our read, in conjunction with the complexity of the changes that have been made to the form is that the ethics commission is responsible for the form. That's our statutory interpretation, and they disagree. I also disagree, actually. Maybe I'm not reasonable because when I hear create and maintain, I hear create and make sure

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: it's updated. Not happens on the

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: other side. That is their reading too. But that is not our reading. And the house government operations took that language and said, ethics commission, put it on your website. And we said that we would link to the ethics commission's website, and we will do that. Right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And now I don't know that I support the house's language because I don't read the create and maintain to mean that the ethics commission is complete is responsible for no. I read that to mean Create. That they will make it and make sure it's up to date.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And hold it in their archives or whatever. Yeah, exactly.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't read that to mean that that moves from your website to their website. I still think it belongs on the Secretary of State of of

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: You know, we fundamentally disagree and we are not equipped to answer questions about this one.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Because you haven't created it.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So are are you saying good because you

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: haven't created it? You don't wanna answer questions it.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Any expertise on this issue at all. We we are not experts in personal finances for candidates. Well, you're experts on finances for candidates because On campaign finance. On campaign finance. But that's very different than we are experts on who should disclose, how you should disclose your spending on your campaign. I appreciate it. It's very different to get into tax law or press or stocks. I mean, I can't answer those questions. I've never had a stock portfolio worth disclosing to anybody. I don't know anything about stocks. I'll I'll say it on the record. I have, you know, just

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, have to remedy it. I know what we're giving you for birthday present. The next time.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: A share of something.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Absolutely. Brian and I will make sure that you've got some shares of something.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Senator White. Mister chair, thank you. If you were approached by a candidate okay. Well, I'm just thinking who I understand you don't wanna do it. I get that. I'm down for that, supportive of that. I do respect that you're saying we don't have the expertise. But typically, is it the answer then you should talk to your lawyer? You should talk to your accountant to make sure you're in coordination with the law? That's why, like That would that be like the wouldn't that be the easy? Because for to your point, like, I have no stocks that are of any interest. But if I did, I would probably have someone who's a professional who would be managing that and be able to help me understand that question. Like, is my spouse's trust more than 25 k? That does that count? What I learned just through basic conversation because I said, what about my four zero one k? My spouse has a pension. Does that count? It's worth more than $25,000. And what I learned almost instantly was it does not count on this form because we are not managing it.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Right. You don't referral.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: So that I have that's like, can you direct people to say, we can't answer questions, but you should talk to your tax professional. You should talk to your lawyer.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So some we I mean, it's one of this is to find out what Oh, wait. Can I have Lauren answer it? I hear what you're saying. That's just crazy that they

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: answered that you that way.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. So,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: again, I would not feel like I should answer that question about pension or control or not. But I have seen and and if this body does want us to take responsibility for that, then we will get ourselves equipped to do that. Yeah. We are not equipped to do that right now, and we would ask for staff to do that. It's just Commission. Like the But we couldn't do it if we did not have an additional person. Right. Just like the Ethics Commission. Just like the Ethics Commission. So, and whether we get it or the Ethics Commission gets it, I think that's a decision for a future day. But I have seen some answers to some of the most common questions in an FAQ. I believe I don't have that in front of me, obviously, but I believe the question you just yelled is one of the questions. And I think that the ethics commission is the appropriate body to give evidence to give guidance on that. And I also think there's a boundary by which any one of us needs to be careful, regardless of whether you're the ethics commission or the secretary of state. We don't give legal advice. Yeah. We don't give tax advice. We don't we can't. So there's a lot of times that we say, this is our guidance, and then you need to consult an attorney in a lot of states. And so even if you were to say the secretary of state's office is responsible for the candidate financial disclosure, there is a universe about I think about a third of states have it set up that way. And it's okay that state has made a decision that it's okay that it's not an independent body. Vermont has not made that decision, but but if you were to make that decision and put on staff, we could do that, and we would have a set number of questions that we answered. And then we would say, beyond this, you need to ask. Yeah. That's kind of my

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: because I don't yeah. Thank you. That's very helpful.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It is helpful. And and I I sort of, again, circle back. There is ethics commission, one, has two half time staff people, and we've tasked them to deal with all kinds of things. Like, they don't need a staff position to do this. They need three staff positions to do with what we've already asked them to do. So I think that they're in a very different position. And I understand the elections division works very, very hard, and you are more staff than the ethics commission.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We are not more staff for what we are responsible for. I will push back on that. Ethics commission

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: has zero attorneys on staff. And and so and and they're not answering ethical questions. They're answering like, the questions you're posing are not ethics questions. They are questions that both of you should be saying. I'm not a I can't give you legal advice. Like, I don't think it it matters if the ethics commission who has no attorney on staff and two halftime people says, I can't give you legal advice, or if the secretary of state's office says, I can't give you legal advice. But candidates are a fundamentally different animal than someone who's beholden. Candidates are beholden to the ethics code. That's what the ethics commission is. They're an upholden. Totally different animal. And I don't want to diminish how much work the elections division does. I know that they do. And I think my point is is when a smallish piece of additional work is spread across six people versus a person, it's a

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: very different. We do not have capacity to take on answering these questions. That there is no capacity to do that. And we are drawing in people outside of the elections division to help with what and required of our team. So we it's not a smallish thing. It's something that if this is something that this body wants us to do, we could do it. We would need another person, and we would need time to get up to speed on what the what the legislature is asking candidates to disclose and how what level of questions we would answer, we do not have capacity to answer those questions.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: You probably can in the next three weeks.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We cannot. And the ethics commission does come an attorney on contractors providing guidance to them on contract basis.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Right, executive director is a lawyer. Yes.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. I don't think we're coming to resolution on this.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, I know we're not.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I do think the best proposal we have at the moment for us to take and consider overnight is the elimination of the penalty, the elimination of consequences for not filing it because I do not think we are prepared to receive it, evaluate it, do anything with it. You're right. But I do feel that I shared Tanya's concern that if we eliminate it and suspend it full thing, we may never get it back. So eliminating simply eliminating the consequences and not filing it makes the most sense to me because no one's prepared to deal with it. Then I do think

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it would be irresponsible for us

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: to just leave it there because I do think we have to be gotten

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: who all the we have

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: to set in motion a way for us to solve that problem. I agree with you. I but I also think that section four, which is the section that firmly plants this with the ethics commission, is getting ahead of that conversation. That was added in the house.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, in blue. It's so hard to see. In red.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No, it's in It's in blue. It's in blue and yellow. Well It's in your The gray yellow color. I know.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's in the red color.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Okay. That language that firmly the dispute is about the existing What does create and maintain mean? Now in section four, the house is saying this is what it means, which I think is way far out ahead of, like, the we clearly can't agree that that is what it means. And so I think section four is incredibly premature and ahead of the conversation that you are saying we need to have to solve this problem. The house is just saying, you're this is the solution.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Let's assume somebody fills out the disclosure form from ethics commission. Is that available for the general public to see?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That's the

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: because I was gonna make a case where I think that's kicking it down the road just as much as not even taking the form and getting rid of the form. But if people can see that, I guess they could get more but they don't know whether the answers to the questions have been answered either. So I I'm not sure.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I don't know. Okay. Particularly, it's highlighted in this blue, you can't

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: You can't even read it.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I can't hear you. Okay. Let's, just for the heck of it, leave it for today and,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: continue with I our would ask Lauren and Paul, if you're listening, and us to think about, no matter what, which option we choose, how do we solve this problem going forward? And how do we, who should be there to Well, think

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Paul's made it clear how we solve it. We give them $500,000 Yes.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I haven't heard the ethics commission saying they don't want responsibility of this form. They just don't have the capacity. So we have the opportunity to give them the capacity. If there's not that possibility, then I think we have to have a much more structured conversation on moving this function to the second state's office. And unfortunately, like, we have a little brain space to think about this, but this issue has already taken up way more time

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Than we have bandwidth for at this time, and we will not have bandwidth. The elections team will not have bandwidth to contemplate this until this

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, until December. No. I yeah. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, committee, feels like we've run a marathon, but, we have one yet to run. So we'll put this on hold for another

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. We'll adjourn for the day and see all of you who want