Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Good afternoon. Once again, welcome into the Senate Committee on Government Operations Committee meeting of Friday, August, I'm sorry, April 17. Hope we're not here on line. 2026. Interesting. And we're going to again look at page nine thirty five. This is called the emergency management bill. We have had a walk through earlier. In fact, I think Tucker was here when we first walked through it. Yep. So Tim Devlin has joined us as well, and if we need his services, we could certainly call him up to the table. Keith Hubbard, who is with us from the Central Vermont Regional Planning Commission, can join us and bring us up to date if there are any concerns with this bill or exactly what you think of it. Can always identify yourself.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: Oh, yes. Sorry. Not you. That's okay. Cool. My name is Keith Covenant. I'm the emergency manager. I do both emergency management and transportation planning at Central Vermont Regional Planning Group. Gosh.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You heard the Rita's detail.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Kinda Rita Segal and Kevin Geiger next. Yes. That's true. Yeah. We we would really we've been monitoring the public communications task force. Yeah. We really like what we've seen come out from them for the base model of developing communications, you know, throughout each region, and we're just advocating for a pilot program to get one of those stood up. You know, we've we've worked with, Capital Fire Mutual Aid in this region for multiple years now ever since Central on public safety authority solved. We have tried to step in and try to help them find funding. Pursuing multiple different different avenues, but most of this equipment is very expensive, and there's very little federal funding to support this. These things. Oh, yeah. Maybe not. Forever. Yeah. That might change in the future. Currently, there isn't really barely anything out there. What we would would just really like to see see a pilot because the communications in this region is definitely slowly degrading in the flood of twenty three. Three of the tower three of the eight main towers were off and on for about seventy two hours. A lot of it is just the age of the infrastructure that's out there. We we do need an upgrade, and we've just been trying to work with, cap a fire to find that funding. We've been following the task force now at this point, hoping that a pilot could be, taken from that. And whether we're the first ones, I believe we are pretty shuttle ready, we just won't see anybody to be the first ones so that we can, you know, evolve or just advocating that the remaining funds So

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: this is section 12 of the bill, I believe, which has to do with the Department of Public Safety, Public Safety Communications Task Force authorization for ongoing expenditure of funds. And we have put in 2,250,000 for immediate costs associated with establishing this dispatch system and pioneers of software licensing fees. And that's what I think Keith is referring to.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So what site what page are you on?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: On the bill, it would be page 26. I don't know if anyone has particular questions for when you say you've applied for it, are you hoping to get a certain number, dollar figure from that grant? Or I mean, from the from the way it looks

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: as as the bill's written out that the state would take over that piece of infrastructure, You know, I just like to be honest with the region. We just wanna see that equipment operated. Okay. What whatever. Whether that's the state, you know, actually facing and doing that work or whether it's working with, you know, the RPC or or somebody to grant it down best, and then we help work to get that those upgrades done. We just see a a very large need within the region and, you know, a failure of that sort isn't something that, you know, obviously, anybody

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: in the state would ever wanna see. So what towns are in the Central Vermont of

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: So it's all the towns you don't blend, all the towns in Washington County. Yep. That's 20. 20 towns here in Washington and then three towns in Orange. And do you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: currently have a dispatch system that works well with

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: the other regional planning areas? The current dispatch system does go down even into Two Rivers area. Okay. And a little bit like Groton down to Randolph. I know Joe Altworth is supposed to zoom in to the meeting.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think he's He he

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: could give you a lot of picture. Yeah. A picture of the total footprint that they dispatched for. Yeah, it actually gets outside of our patient.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And it's interesting you mentioned the, I don't know if you want to call it interoperability. We were just talking about that with respect to the pharmacies in the state don't all have the same ability to share information statewide. Law enforcement in the state uses two different communication systems. There's Spelman and Valcourt, and they don't necessarily interface 100% of the time. I'm in Rutland County, so some of my emergency dispatch services are actually from New York State. If you live to a certain mileage west of Rutland City, you can't hear people that are from the other side of Rutland County. It really is a puzzle how we arrived here. So yeah, I don't know whether $2,200,000 is gonna fix the problem, but my guess is it won't.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Hopefully, our county and regional governance study helps fix the problem. So The dispatch will is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yep. Mess.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: Yes. Yeah. So we definitely need some level of organizations that brings that into the brain. So as you plug Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So have you been involved in the Virta, the sort of inter inter well, the the inter I don't have a better word for it, but it's a a multi agency, multi organization, regional technical assistance

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: I have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: effort of.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: No. No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I have. The VCRD. Oh, yeah. So where is this 2,200,000? And you asked that question. I still don't understand where it is. But is it in our budget?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's in the Department of Public Safety. I think it's already been appropriate. So this is from I asked this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: is from f y twenty six?

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: I believe so. From my understanding, to be honest

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Why is it here then?

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: I know the task force, there was a recommendation set up for a governance structure, and then that was chosen not to pursue that. So I think there's some money that was there that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I Yes. This is the bar for I had, like, 9,000,000.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes. Okay. Then Got it. Got it. Got it.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: So tricks not to go on that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Right? Where the money is. Okay.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's gonna be all to you.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I actually really just wanna say thank you. I wanna say thank you for coming in and recognizing that there was a problem, and there might be lots of different ways to solve it, and that you didn't have to be the one to solve it, but that you'd be willing to help. Sometimes I think part of how we get to these patchworks is everyone has this sense that it has to be me. And I just really appreciate you coming in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Stepping away from it having to be you and saying, we've got problems solved. Let's work together. Yeah.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: Yeah. Just wanted to see the problem solved.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I just wanna say thank you.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: You're welcome. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We're very grateful for anyone who wants pull us all together and solve a problem.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, just I think sometimes we have people that they get into a battle about who's gonna solve the problem, which doesn't solve the problem and creates the patchwork that we have because everyone has their own little bite to them that they won't get let go of them.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: Yeah. Yes.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And I just appreciate you coming in not doing that.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Any other questions for Keith? I'm done. Hey. You're welcome to yeah. Talk to today where you are, you can take a seat on the side. It doesn't matter.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: How long have you been working with Central?

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: I'll be four years this June. Oh, great. Well, we're glad you've come. Yes. Definitely been an with a number

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of folks. Yes. Because you are from the South, it sounds

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: like. Pennsylvania.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, but South, not that far since. So South? We

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: like to welcome in Joseph Alsworth, who's deputy chief and EMS and deputy emergency management director for the city of Barrie. And welcome in.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: Thank you for having me. I have prepared a statement. I am the president for Capital Fire Mutual Aid. I'm also the chairman for the Vermont Ambulance District number six. I currently represent over 33 communities in Washington and Orange County for our project. I can answer questions at first if you have any off the top or I could read my statement.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Why don't you read what you have first, and then maybe that'll prompt some questions.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: Okay, great. Chair of the Senate Governance Committee and members, thank you very much for taking the time to meet with us today. We truly appreciate the opportunity to be here and to share what our communities are experiencing. We also want to thank you for what the committee, the task force, and Commissioner Morrison have continued engagement over the years with the state legislature and their work on this project. We want to begin by recognizing their work is essential to the statewide mission to provide regional dispatching. We understand how complex the issue is, and we remain committed to being good partners in building solutions that work not just for Central Vermont, but for the entire state. At the same time, we are here today because Central Vermont has an urgent need and continues to grow. I represent Capital Fire Mutual Aid Dispatch Users Group and the Vermont EMS District six serving more than 30 municipalities across Washington And Orange Counties. We reach all as far as into Randolph, and potentially will be into Chelsea. These are communities that rely on every day on dependable emergency communications to support their fire and EMS public safety responder missions. For more than a decade, we've been working to improve the system that is aging and under increasing strain. As time goes on, the challenges don't go away. They become more difficult and more expensive to address. At its core, this is about safety, sustainability, and reliability. When someone calls for help, the first responders need to be able to communicate clearly and immediately. The connection is essential. It is what allows the teams to coordinate, make decisions, and keep both the public and themselves safe while delivering a safer response for our residents and first responders economically and safely. Right now, in parts of Central Vermont, that reliability is not always there. During the flooding of twenty twenty three, our system was tested in a way that it hadn't seen before. Three of the main towers, three of the eight towers, three of them which were main, were compromised for seventy two hours. We were very close to losing critical communications during a major emergency. That experience really underscored us how important it is to strengthen the system, not just for day to day calls, but for the moments when everything is on the line. Over the last six years in partnership with the cities of Barrie and Montpelier, we've invested over $1,200,000 into upgrades and improvements. We've worked closely with our municipal partners, legislative leaders, and the Department of Public Safety to make meaningful progress. But we've reached a point where incremental improvements are no longer enough. Central Vermont's terrain, historic buildings, and ongoing regional interference all contribute to gaps in coverage. Federal narrowbanding requirements have also reduced signal reach and adding another layer of challenge. The encouraging news is that we are ready to move forward with a comprehensive solution. We've developed a shovel ready project that uses modern P25 digital technology and is designed to be resilient, scalable, and compatible for future statewide systems. This isn't just about solving a local issue. It's about creating a model that can support a broader statewide approach to emergency communications. What we're missing is the funding needed to complete the project. Today, we're respectfully asking your support for securing from funds identified by Senator Perchlich, the investment would allow us to move forward now rather than continue to patchwork an aging system that we, the users and the task force, has identified as needing a more comprehensive solution. We see this as an opportunity not to address immediate needs in Central Vermont, but to take an important step forward towards a more unified, reliable communications for the entire state.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: are ready to do the work. We are committed to collaboration, and we want to be part of the solution that reflects Vermont's shared values, safety, resilience, and responsibility. Thank you again for your time and consideration and your continued support of Vermont's communities and first responders. Prepare to take any questions that you have.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Curti, any questions? We

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: applaud those sentiments.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'll just mention, Joe, that part of what was in the section by section that we can look at here is that the House Appropriations Committee, I don't know what they did with that appropriation that was, I think it was left over from only '22. And now it has moved to our next door neighbor here in the state house, the next committee over. And they are taking at least a straw poll, if not total vote on the budget this afternoon. So if senator Perchlich was involved, I know and, obviously, he's the chair of the committee, he's well aware of this request for the appropriation. So I guess that was a long way of asking. Did it survive the House appropriations bill?

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: To be honest with you, I'm not sure. He asked us to testify today in support of his initiative, but we also would like to just let you folks know that we encourage you to continue to support the initiative of the task force. We encourage you to see this to the finish line. We would hate, in Central Vermont, in Washington, Orange Counties, we would hate to see this to die on the vine. And so that's why I'm here today.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay, that's fair.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: We also provide a solution to try to move the ball forward to really to finish what we've started over the years. I've testified in front of many committees now, like I said, I think now's the time to act instead of letting it go by the wayside.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Senator Clarkson? No. I was

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: just thinking that Eric or Eric's case. Eric what? Perrin or Jen Morrison would know what's that for the agent. Yeah.

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: Well, you're gonna take your

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I don't understand if it was Barb's pot. I thought it had stayed with public safety to repurpose, not to go back into the general court or anything

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: like that. I think it did.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, that is too bad. It should have yeah. Well,

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: we could certainly think

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We'll out.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But if Andrew Perchlich is on it, then you can bet interested. In a vote over across the way this afternoon. It'll be part of the budget. Of course, it still has to survive a potential gubernatorial veto and then a conference committee. But anyway, I had another question that maybe it's not a fair one for you. You take a look at all 14 counties in Vermont, which counties are sort of ahead of the curve in terms of their ability to officially dispatch and which and I realized I may be putting you really on the spot, which are not in such a favorable position. I, you know, I look at Rutland, and as I said, parts of Rutland are not really able to communicate with other parts of Rutland County. They've got to go through New York State to do it. I assume the same is true in Wyndham, with New Hampshire being as close as it is, but I don't know that.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: I know there was a survey done and that there are various degrees of capabilities. I know that Chittenden County is pretty self sufficient with themselves. And back when the DPS was going to shed a bunch of the municipalities from who they dispatched for, they weren't prepared to take on. And so the readiness across the board is really disjointed. I can speak for Capitol Fire is that we've had a functional system and governance system for over twenty years since we had our congressionally directed spending allocation from Senator Leahy to set this up. I know St. Johnsbury's fairly functional right now, but I've seen a lot where we've Capitol Fire and Barry Montpelier have taken on additional, especially from Orange County, additional Orange County Sheriff, Randolph Police, Randolph Fire, their three departments, and then Brookfield Fire. So I only can speak to us. One thing that we did address at Capitol Fire level is that once we replace the system, how do we fix it in ten years? And so under the governor's directive, he said develop a system in which we did. We assess each of the towns a capital replacement fund, and they're assessed annually, and we're at year three of that now.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. So like an up our

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: way Newport PD took on basically that responsibility because we had the same issue. They closed the peace app in Derby and then we couldn't get good communication. It wasn't working out well. So then they stepped up, invested a lot, and then most of the fire departments and ambulance services joined, and then we get an annual fee from them, and it's based on call.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Unfortunately, mind you, the fire and the rescue are not at the same position law enforcement is, because if you get to a situation, and that's true in many of the towns in my county, where you don't have a local police force and you don't contract with the sheriff's department, the default agency is the state police. Right. And guess what? People in those communities don't have to pay anything extra to have that It's not as readily responsive as if you had your own local one, but it is the default. So up in the Northeast Kingdom, same is true. Right.

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: You don't need to do this if you don't want it. You still can use a state police, but the communities have said, no. We are actually going to pay for this because we think it people gotta be careful with it. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's why it's pretty dumb with it that they

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: don't because

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: there's different roads across the state of world all made the same thing, and so these folks up here really know our communities, and so we were willing

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: to pay for it. Well,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: you're a thousand people at Orleans Village or Mask. They really appreciate public service in a way that very few communities of that size appreciate. And

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: just as it develops, unfortunately, fire departments are not I know it's mutual aid. I get that. But they don't have that sort of statewide default system that law enforcement has. And then you get into a thing, okay, if you live in Rutland City, you're already paying an additional fee to have a Rutland City Police Department.

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: A very inexpensive one and good size one.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. But if you live in, I don't know, Iowa default to the state police and you don't pay anything extra. So if you were to change it, it's the haves and the have nots.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Don't know. But I write at any time could have a contract with the Brooklyn City Police. My guess is if they wanted, they put and my guess I mean, just like Woodstock, we contract it. We have contracts with other tower. I'm not sure that Woodstock does, but I know that other some towns, their police departments do have contracts with other tenants.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, they have a sheriff contracts.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. No. I mean, contracts with

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the other local police. And I don't think you're problem with city

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I can work for, for example, but I believe had one with for a while and Okay. It exists. Okay.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Joe, did you have anything else to, offer us today?

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: No, I don't. I want to thank the committee. I think it's important to try to move the bar forward. I also just want to implore that I understand that people like to stay in their own little niches, and I think that Capital Fire Mutual Aid has been successful in uniting 33 municipalities to do this very task, which I think is quite daunting, and we're willing to assist in any way that happens. But right now, I have to really implore you that our communication system keeps getting more expensive. We've taken it to a point where we've gone as much as we can, explored as much as we can, as Keith has told you. And really, the federal government has fallen short as far as supporting fire and EMS, And this is just another problem that volunteers are seeing, is that when they are on the scene or the EMS paramedic is on the scene trying to talk to the hospital, they can't. And then now with today's, we just cannot afford to scrimp on the safety. I think our project shows resilience, physically restraint, and it covers portable on cap coverage, which is a safety factor for us that I know the state police do not enjoy right now.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Keith, do you have anything else for us?

[Keith Covenant (CVRPC Emergency Management & Transportation Planner)]: No. Just we're happy to try to work with you. Well,

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'll be speaking with the chair of Senate Appropriations for sure. And hopefully the 2.25 is still in the budget and can be distributed to some, in some fashion to all reach or all the counties. I don't know how that's gonna be decided. But

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Right. So I have a question. Sure. Okay. I would like to know, Joseph, what is Truck30? Oh, okay.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: So TruckTruck30 is our tower truck here in the in Barrie City. Basically, 30 is our mutual aid number. Ah. So that's why it's truck That that actually was a house fire, and I took that picture that was blowing out the gable end of that roof there. We actually saved the structure, believe it or not.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Wow. Okay. Oh, I see. Okay. We don't fully appreciate that, but Truck30 comes through big time. So That's your call for mutual aid.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: Yes, ma'am.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's great. Thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, on behalf of the committee, thank you both for your service. Care, care. Hopefully, we will show our support by moving this forward and allowing you to use some more funding.

[Joseph "Joe" Alsworth (Deputy Chief & Deputy EMD, Barre City; President, Capital Fire Mutual Aid)]: Thank you so much. I appreciate the work that this committee's done, and we look forward to working with you, the DPS and the task force in the future.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yep. Have a great weekend. Enjoy what looks to be a really fine day out. I haven't been outside since early this morning, but sure looks nice. Well, I love that idea. All right. Thank you, Keith. Appreciate you coming in.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you. Bye bye.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is there anything else

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: you stranger, Keith. Come back.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is there anything else that we need to pick up today? Seeing no hands up? Or

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. I just would like to remind everybody if they want to create a haiku, they would be more than welcome, miscellaneous tags, for the technical Are

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: you up Tuesday? I guess. I think Well, you're on notice today. So Yes. I noticed it. There's no money. No. The other bill, because it did involve for DMV.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I knew it would.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I've got two bills still to report, but both of them have They can out to use the Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So you can devote your time for a high core Bloomberg. You have a lot of to You do. You're very clever. I

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I don't even know what it is saying anything about creating.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, so offline, I'll tell you.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: You can share all of hers.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, you know what? That's a good idea. That'll

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, it has some

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: X rated No. No. It's just a little spicy. Maybe it's too spicier.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. As I said, I don't think there's anything else for us committee wise. I think we've done work. Yeah. Man, we managed to get a couple of our bills out this week, and we'll continue to order. So with that in mind, we will adjourn for the day and the week and see all of you on Tuesday.