Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Tonight, may I ask Good

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: afternoon. Welcome back to the Central Committee on Government Operations Committee meeting of Wednesday, 04/08/2026. Our final item for consideration today is H841, an accolade to miscellaneous animal welfare procedures, and we're happy to have representative Sheawater. Dennis back with us today. And so this is a little bit longer, Bill.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: It is.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But maybe it won't be quite as bumpy a ride to walk through it.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: That was not bumpy. That was exciting and informative. Okay. That would I love coming here. I know. So, I mean, we do have I'm gonna tell you this. Repshea Water Seven's from Charlotte And House Of Vops. I am going to tell you that I will talk you through maybe the concepts and ideas behind why you did some of these things.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yep.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I think Lisa is going to be an excellent resource for you as far as, like, the actual maybe reading animal stuff and the of course, the the legal stuff. So I'm just gonna give you, like, more of a Okay. Fun overview- Great. Of the animal stuff. So if you remember two years ago, twenty twenty four, we created the division of animal welfare. And when we created the division of animal welfare, we created a position within that division, the Director of Animal Welfare. We met her. Yes. She's sitting right behind you. And so the first charge of that job was to create a report eight months after that person started their job, just to identify what some of the problems are. If you recall, really disjointed, fragmented system. We are still having lots of issues even, you know, last week maybe with some animal welfare stuff. And trying to find a way to not only help animals, but, you know, help people. A lot of times these animal welfare issues are also related to, you know, public health and public safety and mental health and, like, all different kinds of of- Nope. So it's really helping for munchers, people as well as animals. Also, getting everything into one spot is the goal at some point to just have a really good robust system. But this bill gets started on the next steps toward that path. Okay. With the realization that we don't have lots of money, as we were already discussing earlier today, we are, know, things things are tight. So there is no appropriation in this bill. You'll be so excited to know. There I don't think we have any fees or anything. We are there's one registration thing, but it's voluntary and doesn't charge anything, so it's just the fun part. So the first thing that it does and it establishes rule making authority for the Director of Animal Welfare, you know, lot of this stuff doesn't need to be established in statute, it can just be done through all the rules, And so it's giving that person the ability to do so. And then it also sets up a certified rabies vaccinator program. That's the big thing that it does. So right now, a veterinarian can vaccinate an animal for rabies, and that is it. So we did have an amendment on the House Square that we worked into the bill, specifies who we, I think the original bill said, that the director of animal welfare has to consult with Vermont veterinarians to create this certified rabies vaccinator program, and it specifies exactly who it is. And that is the Vermont Veteran Medical Association. Veterinarian. Veterinarian. We do military affairs too. Vermont and Veterinary.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: They're all

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: sound similar. Yeah, medical association. So what it does is it's just basically allows, in consulting with those people, the director of animal welfare to come up with a system where their other people can be certified to be rabies vaccinators. It's not just anyone off the street. It's a mental control officer. It's an assistant, a veterinarian's assistant. It's a person who's working at a shelter or a human society or something, which we've already specified in the statute is that it's certified humane research. So because those rabies vaccinations need to be handled very carefully. So it's just making sure that that when we do have that program that it's following all the rules. But hopefully, it's gonna expand access to rabies vaccinations Mhmm. In parts of state that are in the rural or have fewer veterinarians and make it less expensive, etcetera.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, it's only about forty years too late. Wow. We needed to vaccinate the entire wildlife in the state that we failed to do in any kind of false way. So that we all speak

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't imagine that these new vaccinators are going to be catching bears. You vaccinate them. Think it's not For the bears themselves. Correct. But, did you take any testimony, and if you're not the right person to ask this, can try to find out who is, about what percentage of domestic cats currently are vaccinated? Oh, yeah. Good question.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: We took testimony relating to that mostly, I don't know the percentages, but it's, it was mostly related to cats. Okay. That we took that testimony originally. I was hoping that we could require people to register their cats like you would register a dog with your town clerk.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Cat. Oh, wow. No.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: There are lots of different types of cats. There are indoor cats and outdoor cats. There are working cats. Cat.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That's something new that I like. Cats are that we're

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: gonna make to off their cats. Well, here's the thing. They are the biggest carrier, domestic animal of rabies. Correct.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: But they don't, like, attack random people on the street.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: They don't. They do. How free I

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: have never heard of this scenario. You're there has been in Vermont. A cat has attacked someone out in the street, layperson.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, cats attack people inside too just because they're cats.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: But the reason you have a dog registration, from my understanding, is because you need to be able to have an understanding of a dog attack somebody. But are cat attacks far more common than I'm under the impression?

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: The impression of a little bit that. That's Maybe when she comes up, I wish she had what

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: to do if It just is kind of comical,

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: the idea of rid Cat Park came out because that was a reaction to a lot of people. I would encourage you to consider putting it back in. If the goal is to get rid of rabies, then you get rid of rabies. But there are some there are some folks who don't like They're cat lovers. Yes. Yes. For mom Just for cat lovers. We all love cats, and we don't want them to have rabies. Right.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So we wanna protect them, actually.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: That's okay. You you pull this you put this back in the bill.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I I think that's that ship is sale. That cat is longer gone. Instead of us.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Check out

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: a couple of rabies. Yes. But to get back to it, the blind the statistic we did hear that was very interesting was that when people bring animals to shelters, which is actually we're getting there. Oh, that was a good question. Kind of right now, almost in the middle, is that when people bring cats to shelters, if they are unaltered or not sexually sterilized, then they're usually not adopted. Nobody comes to claim them, say, oh, I lost my cat. So the majority of those are that's what we heard about. Well, or a stray, or like a neighborhood cat that people are shooting and stuff, but no, you didn't specifically, I don't know the facts on the rabies, but I'm guessing, makes them apologize.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah, so the question, So sorry. Say that one again. If cats come to an animal shelter Yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Or Yes. They've neutered. If no one comes to pick them up, claim them as they receive. Interesting. Yeah.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Wonder why. That's very odd. They're stray or they're, you know because most of

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: people do neuter or spay their cats. Even

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Well I don't know that you're gonna extrapolate the why from that piece of information. Yes. Just to get you some information.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I know. It was interesting. Barbara, I just wanna make sure I don't miss anything. Okay. So, the rabies vaccinations and then so the next thing is it's it's requiring the director or the director giving her or that person the authority to ask animal shelters, rescue organizations, breeders, or people who are importing animals into the state to like sell or, or breed, to register with the Division of Animal Welfare, but it is not requiring them to pay to do that. It's just saying please register your organization that is bringing animals here into the state for evaluation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Senator Clarkson. And if they're being brought in, do we make sure they are then vaccinated?

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I believe yes. That's is that part of the press? We're not there yet. We haven't gotten there yet. This In

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: the bill or in life? In life.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: We're we're hoping to get there. We are setting up a system

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. We're setting

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: up a can Right. That we can

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That we can manage the animals, the inflow Yeah. And how and once the animals come in, then we wanna make sure they're vaccinated due

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to their spay or whatever. Yeah.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: And once we kind of know, it it there's a a lack of of data. There's a lack of information. There's because we don't have a system. So if we just start by asking people to do that, the hope is that we will get more information as they want, and that is make better, more informed decisions about So it's just curious to use

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the word system for free For for everything.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's a vaccination section total.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I thought the only required vaccination by Vermont law was the every three year rabies vaccination. The others are recommended, but I my understanding is they only require one is rabies. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. I think that was the wolf hybrids in section four.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And some of the existing segments Olara. Requires health certificates. I've been having Part of

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: the rabies are the three month survey.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We're gonna Part of the health certificate.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. But nobody actually looks at

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: We can this is so fun to talk about. We can go on forever. But I'm gonna we so you both have the answers to some of your questions about the nitty gritty of the animal stuff and what's required.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Imported. Yeah. Overseas from getting imported.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yeah. And I do wanna tell you that throughout, like, any there's a whole section there are multiple sections that just involve changing the term spay or neuter to sexually sterilized because

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Was that the term we're using now?

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Because there are more ways to do so to make an animal not able to reproduce than just spaying it or something. It's inclusive of all

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: of those things. Any kind of way you might go about doing that. Oh, I one's imagination is unleashed. Perhaps not in the middle. Gonna be pretty good.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I was unleashed in animal puns. Thank

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: you, Chittenden.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: They bring him in for a psychological thing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I I always just say trauma could keep an animal.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Jest, but you weren't in my morning committee. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This may be a better question for legislative council. If it is, it's okay for you to

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: just say,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: but what what is how does one define importing? My

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: dog came from

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: a breeder in Massachusetts. Did I import her to Vermont? The breeder imported hers from Vermont, I guess. Is that kind of how it works? It's Lisa Milo, the owner Animal Welfare, and the bill exempts importation for personal use. Yes, you brought her into Vermont the first time, but it's exempted because of personal use. You brought her in in order to breed home her or in order to breed and sell her offspring, Okay. Then we'll follow here.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes, Senator Clarkson. Well, we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: may wait for Lisa to talk because the whole question of how we bring animals in without knowing anything about them, all these adoptees is a little concerning without any system for screening them or anything, which we have now. It's just Wild West on bringing animals in.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I imagine that's the purpose of starting by setting pretty much danger hits,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: which is great.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: We're getting there. There are couple of little things that you have to step on that are gonna help us get to a legal board up.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you, mister. So I just had a couple questions because I'm not seeing anything related to, like and maybe this isn't the correct term, but exotic animals. One of the key things I learned about at the international conference around biodiversity was the increased lucrative market of exotic animal importation and sales, and in fact, then invasive species. Basically look to Florida and you'll see that the exotics market has basically caused the influx of snakes in their area. So I'm just wondering based on the definitions here, it doesn't appear that you're covering exotics, if I'm understanding correctly. Because animal is defined as fish and wildlife. It or does is not applying to fish and wildlife. So I would in some way, think that might be exotics. That might so they might not be a part of it. And then any scientific research, that's separate. Poultry, livestock, separate. I guess I'm wondering, the definition of an animal seems to be every other creature not covered in those things, and I feel like what is your bill doing around exotic? And do you define domestic pet or domestic animal as the same as yeah. I guess I'm just confused about does this cover, like, rare insect or rare animals like the try to think there there was a really incredible creature that's been taken. It's called the giant otter, and it's been taken from parts of South America and brought here as a pet for people. And, you know, it's essentially killed off that whole species in this part of Ecuador, for example. So are you changing that at all? Is that covered if someone imports a giant otter for example? Or or also the small animals. I mean, chinchillas and stuff. Yeah. Like, those I'm very concerned about because people they're also connected to the drug trade typically. There's a lot of no. It's it's

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: very confessions in Florida. Often gym pack on the natural habitat. Mean, Hawaii and feral pigs is a perfect example.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: But we will do anything to survive.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I have a question that I will ask Lisa, and maybe she can address that. It doesn't specifically do that, but would one of those animals count as a domestic domestic pet if some were bringing it in? No.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Those are wildlife.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yes. They're not wildlife.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: They're governed by fish and wildlife. Oh, okay.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So if someone takes what happens now if someone if you have an exotic animal that should, or an endangered species animal, which of the majority of them, it's governed by Fish and Wildlife and they already stop you from doing that, they regulate it?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I believe they regulate it, I am not sure, without any resources.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It's in

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: danger, I believe. There's no way to Well,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: maybe I'll do a little research on my own, but just so I understand for this bill purpose, we're not talking about those animals.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So,astic pet is defined in the code as being dogs and cats. Doesn't even include pet rabbits. It doesn't include guinea pigs. But in your code, it's more defined as horses and cats. Horses are livestock.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So six BSA, I guess I'll just maybe we can ask to

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have that definition specifically called out because it's not in the statute. It's not in the bill. So we're always here.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah, so

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Lisa's in the chair. We

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have lots of questions. I know,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I'm just going to sail

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: you through the rest of this, just why, you know, kind of why we did some stuff. So there are some things here. Lisa is going to tell you the specifics about the wolf hybrid situation and why we wanted to do this, but we created some, basically requiring that people sexually sterilize Wolf hybrids. We are not going to allow them to be bred anymore in Vermont. Are currently allowed to be, but they are I believe the statistic we got was was that seventy five percent of them are have to be euthanized before they're two or three years old because they're dangerous. They're wild animals. They that's we don't need to keep breeding that. So she's gonna explain all that to you. But there are some things here. We're we're removing that ability to breed them here, and we're also requiring if you are going to bring one here or if you have one that it is sexually sterilized before it's three months old.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Three or four months old.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: And then and then some also, with the wolf hybrids, if you are going to register your dog, normally, you don't have to bring proof that it has been sexually sterilized when you go to register it. You just have to bring proof that it's had a rabies vaccine to your child park, but if it's a wolf hybrid, then you can also bring that as well and register it. And then there's a whole chunk of technical corrections and, like, changing you know, just kind of doing some board maintenance. And then let me see. And then the other big the other we were talking about ads there, a lot of ads on social media about adopting a pet, you know, or adopting eelope one time, and then all of a sudden you get a million things on adopting a dog. So it's about advertising. Even privacy. Yeah. Adoption of or or sale of of pets, and it would require to disclose where the pet's located, where it was located at the time the app was placed. And if the rescue or shelter has placed this over, it would require that to be disclosed. But that only applies if it's social media to advertisers who are either located in Vermont or wanting to write a sentence. And then section wait. What did we what was section six? I had that one. Oh, that was the The board. Yeah. RIP to my animal welfare fund checkup to what we would try to have a tax block on the form, but housewives and needs does not wanna do checkups anymore.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: For good reason. The tax department is

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: happy with it. Yes. I know.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: And then that's it. I mean, there are a bunch more little, you know, nitty gritty stuff that they can get into it. But we just are trying the intent is to get us moving forward with setting up this division of animal welfare and hopefully get us to a point where we can have, you know, a system that works for

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: everybody. Do pet dealers, animal shelters, etcetera have insurance now? I pay it to require an section for a GP.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yeah. No, they don't.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, that's new.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yes. That is new.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And I'm not sure where you came up with 35 dogs, but Oh,

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I forgot about the 35 dogs. This was actually a a real conversation that I had with multiple people about the appropriate number of dogs for a person to have.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Well, I thought you were gonna talk about

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a dog sled team and how many chihuahuas it would take to pull a sled.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Probably more than 35. Alright.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I mean, you're not that far off. It's because if somebody has it was mostly for you talked to the about about if they wanna have a hunting dogs, a kennel with with hunting animals in them, and they want to have 35 dogs, they can have 35 dogs with which to go hunt. That is too many dogs. I that is not for me too square feet that are allowed with I think what

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: can all breed 35 is is But Once you get Actually, it's more

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: than that because if they're spayed

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: If they're they're sexually sterilized.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Under six under so many punks, then they're not included in the 35.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: That's right. So you can have 70 if 35 of them are are But after breathing don't you get a

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: special dispensation?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Because you're not having 35 dogs forever. You're having a couple litters.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That's what he does. So so they're under a certain age. Yeah.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: It's just making sure that, you know, we wanted to be respectful to the the hunters and the people who have used dogs for those purposes. And that was a number that seemed comfortable. 30? I think it

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: was like a doll we can remember.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yeah. You can definitely I mean, we had someone come in and testify about it and and discuss. I know.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I mean point. Well, I'll just say after the well, I shouldn't even mention it. I'm not gonna talk about the hunting with dog conversation we've had this building before, but that community has really spent a lot of time beating me up. And I am fully supportive of having as many dogs as they want as long as they're properly following regulations around hunting and not harming other people. But okay. So my main question related to your this bill is around the wolf hybrid piece because we have special regulations in Hartford around wolf hybrids already. Like, in our town charter, we have a whole appeals process essentially on a wolf hybrid if they are deemed unsafe in the community, if they have to be euthanized. We have, like, a whole it's like a quasi judicial board that gets created if something were to happen. So how does that interact with local ordinances or requirements around, like, the appeals like, how does this interact with that? Well, I

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: feel like but generally, the charter is is state law superseding the charter unless

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: You qualify and with a different charter.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Well, if I'm understanding your language correctly, I gotta go back to it. Is your so they have to be sterilized after it's in two you have the little hybrid stuff in two different sec it has three different sections. So it's a little confusing. Yeah. Well But the first one you have is that it's a requirement that they get or that later in the bill in section 12, have wolf hybrids have to, after four months of age, be sexually sterilized. Mhmm. So are the towns enforcing that through the town clerks? Or who and if it's violated, does then the process go to the we have, like, a select board group that they become a wolf hybrid trial, basically. I don't know how to describe this. I've never done it, but it's an opportunity for us as a select board if it comes up.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yeah. That's so interesting that you have that.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I've never

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yeah. Maybe I'm very

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: excited about have not

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: appreciated that hard for me.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: But was kind of I thought it was something everyone had, Chad, because and we've never done it. But the thought was if someone gets attacked or harmed by a wolf hybrid, it is under the discretion of the select board to decide, like, the euthanasia of that animal. That

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: is a good question. Is that right or after? Then, Wollong.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Okay. So then my other question is earlier in the bill, it says you have to before obtaining a license for a wolf hybrid Mhmm. You have to have, like, a duly licensed person stating that they're sexually sterilized. So it does sound like the town clerk is at least checking to see about the sterilization, but it's not enforcing whether or not

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: that animal can continue to be alive. Right.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So would then that go to the I I guess I just need some clarification about how town they're actually deciding on this and if there are towns that have, like, the process that we do, are they the ones who would say, well, technically, you don't have a license, so this would go to

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: us and we get to

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: decide if that animal was euthanized.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Are you saying if somebody didn't comply with the law and licensed their dog?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah, or they had a license and then they couldn't get a certified copy from a duly certified veterinarian that the animal was sexually sterilized, does that mean that that's a violation of law and we would have to take it under our, you know, like, does this, who would decide if that is actually, does then that animal just, like, you go over Like, decides?

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: No, so they just don't have No, don't.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: They Oh, but then they're an unlicensed dog, which you're not allowed to have. You're not allowed to have an unlicensed wolf hybrid. Correct. So then you would have to euthanize that animal.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We'll have Lisa.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Okay. Yeah. Might be a Legion Council question. Okay. I know Tucker and I have had this conversation before the time. We I we don't address the euthanizing the whole time, but it's in this or any animal, really, in this.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I just wanna make sure that I guess my main concern is worst case scenario, a town has put a position like Hartford where because the license is denied or the license is delayed and they can't get it, that then they would be forced to make a decision about the welfare of the animal as a board. And I feel like that makes no sense whatsoever. So I just wanna confirm that that's not the process.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: I don't. I'm unfamiliar with Hartford's process and then, you know, when do they when they would decide if they were gonna use an eosinophil or not.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Okay. Maybe I'll talk to Tucker and see.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Oh, but I can't talk to Tucker. Maybe I'll

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have it up a couple weeks Okay.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: You.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Shay always

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: ran. I love going down and seeing you all. What a treat. I have somewhere to be up for, but I can hang out for fifteen more minutes in case you have questions. Or you should take one you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: have questions. Are you going to pray or Angela's decision?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. Eric, you're off.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: But I would like. Craig?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks, Shay.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: Eric learned more than you could ever possibly learn about animals in

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: such a period of time. Was wonderful.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Good afternoon, y'all. Eric is Patrick of the Albans of Wiggles Fed Council, here to do somewhat of a walk through of H 841. I think Representative Waters Evans already covered quite a bit of it. But the big picture that she mentioned at the beginning is that a couple of years ago in Act one sixty seven in 2024 is when the legislature created the Division of Animal Welfare and the Director of Animal Welfare. I should mention that I did not work on that legislation nor have I worked on animal welfare legislation since then, but we had an office shortage and I drew the lucky straw to cover this for this year. So background kind of questions that come in, I can already tell you some of what I heard, won't be able to answer, but I'll refer it to your witnesses on Central District. Okay. If not most. So, but I can point out what the different sections of the bill are so that you know what's being proposed by the House in H-eight '41. And the first few pages is really the chapter that creates the Division of Animal Welfare. There aren't any changes proposed in those first few sections. As I mentioned, it was created a couple of years ago. The list of duties that the director currently has under Act 164 is on pages two through four. And that's where you get to a couple of the changes that you heard about because their proposal is to add some additional duties to the directive animal welfare. Bottom page four, this rulemaking authority that you heard about just now, there's permissive rule making authority. It's line 19, page four. You may adopt rules generally to implement the provisions of the chapter. So that's not required, but permissive. But over on page five, there is certain required rules that have to be adopted. That's line one, page five, director shall adopt rules. And this is the program to establish a certified rabies vaccination program. So that has to be adopted by rule, not by statute. But in giving guidelines here as to what that program would look like. You see like A through D are all about what's that certified rabies vaccinator program going to entail? Director has to work collaboratively with the Vermont Veterinary Medical Association to establish the program and administer it. The overall idea of it is it permits licensed veterinarians to train and authorize veterinary animal shelter staff to administer rabies vaccinations under the veterinarian's director and direct supervision. So they're going to be working with a vet. The recommended welfare establishes the program, that's Subdivision C. And what would it include? Well, there's some different pieces itemized in Subdivision D there, training and properly storing, administering rabies vaccine, addition, rabies certificates, record keeping requirements, etcetera. All are things that are going have to be covered by this rule. So that's the end of that piece.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Am I right in that there's no time frame by which this rule needs to be done? Here's a perfect point of, like, government accountability in a bill. We've thrown out rule making. We've said you shall do this whenever you feel like it. Not that I think necessarily that that would happen, but there's nothing dictating in this bill when this rule needs to be done and when this program needs to be set up.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: That's right. So it's certainly something you could add if you thought it was deposited. Another piece that doesn't specifically name rule making authority, but which may be implied, is the next section, next subsection F, which is also something that was mentioned earlier, which is this registration requirement when animals are imported into Vermont for sale. You see that the proposal is that the Director of Animal Welfare shall require that animal shelters, rescue organizations, dog breeders, anyone else importing domestic pets for adoption, sale, or transfer or breeding shall register with the Division of Animal Welfare. It doesn't actually lay out a statutory requirement. It requires that the Director of Animal Welfare make it a requirement. So presumably that would be by rule, I would think. So again, it doesn't identify a rule, but I think there's at least an implication there. And the director would have the authority to do that because of that general rule making authority that starts it's on the previous page. So what's that registration going to be? That's over on page six. Registration, what does that have to include? Information on animal intake, production, inventory, disposition, no fee, as was mentioned earlier, it's just the registration requirement. Person doesn't do it, first time violation, they get a warning. Second or subsequent violation, they can get a fine or a cease and desist order. And lastly, an important point, lines nine and ten, page six, that doesn't apply to individuals importing domestic pets for personal purchases. So it's only for adoption, transfer, that sort of thing. So,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: we often in this committee refer to registration as a licensure type under OPR that comes with the ability for OPR to investigate if there is harm. This type of registration include anything like that, or is it just using that word without the like, we have a very official way that we use that word when it comes to, like, OPR.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Right. Right.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And I'm just wondering if any of if there's any overlap there or if it this is more of a plain notionary kind of an illusion.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah, think it's more of a plain language thing that certainly wasn't discussed that I'm aware of, that there would be sort of a

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: An over like the word on it.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yes, right. But that doesn't mean that the language could conceivably be interpreted that way if somehow it came up either in litigation or in some other context. I know I don't think that was the intent. But it is something that maybe ought to be I don't know, but I could check with someone else in our office to see the use of the term registration in that context would automatically have consequences there, OPR based.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: My concern is that it would implicate OPR. I think what I'm wondering is if by use of that word, we're granting oversight authority of these registrants to OPR. Right. I imagine it would go to. Yes. I'm trying holding the registration, which would be the- The program. You. Yes.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: The health care people. From that angle, I would say no, it's not granting OPR any authorities. The authority is committed to the registrations with Division of Animal Welfare. So that's why I would read that.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right. And I I understand that. What I'm wondering is if it grants the Division of Animal Welfare oversight authority of those reading adoption organizations. Oh, I see. As opposed to just hanging on

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: to the registration certificate. Right? I don't see any other kind of regulatory authority being established by that language. But whether they might sort of inadvertently or by implication be creating that, impound to that a little bit.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. And and the reason I brought up OPR is because of how we use that in our licensure schema there. If we start using it in other places, does it create that similar level of oversight? I didn't think it would be OPR doing the oversight.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah, it's a change.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I suspect they would come in here and quite literally tell us they don't want to do that.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So line seven on page six says secretary. Is that secretary of AHS Or it's In that context, yeah. I think, yes. Because it's a is it? Is it? Think it's in Oh, no. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It used to be,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: but now it's DPS now. And so there is no way to Yeah.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Public impact. Of the public. The division is within the Department of Public Safety.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So then they have a commissioner, don't they call it the Secretary?

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yes, but I believe that this is a under, it might be Secretary of Agriculture Agriculture actually, because that's who has the authority. It's an interesting thing, sir, you know more about than I do, that's part of the reason for the existence of the Division of Animal Welfare is that animal statutes in Vermont are just throughout different departments of state government and different agencies have different jurisdiction over different types of animal related conduct. In this particular instance, it's the Secretary of Agriculture that has that authority under. But it would be the director that would decide on the fine? Yes. But yes. That's

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: right. Okay.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: But it wouldn't have to be sorted. And this is a new phenomenon of this industry, if you will. In other words, if I've raised dogs before, I didn't have to register with anybody, and I might bristle at the governments intervening. Just saying. Just Yeah. Right. Government's being called. Or is that a fact of life now that there has always been registration of some sort? I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. I guess we'll ask if we Okay. One thing, and just in response to your point about the amount of fine, so because it says, shall we may issue a fine and decease the sister to same extent the secretary can under chapter one ninety three. So under chapter one ninety three Yeah. Safety penalties up to $500 per violation. It's not just an unlimited, right? In other words, there isn't zero discretion. I think that would have to be. It's up to $500 Okay. Thank you. Jeff? Alright, so the next section has to do with the Animal Welfare Fund. This is also something that was created in AX 01/1967 a couple years ago. It also exists within the Department of Public Safety and the Division of Animal Welfare. The idea is that it can be used to fund the expenses that are incurred by the Division of Animal Welfare for implementing the requirements of the chapter. Right now, it basically just includes some revenue collected on, you know, we were talking about licensing fees. So there's a surcharge on top of those licensing fees. And that, a portion of that goes to the Animal Welfare Fund as well as transfers made by the General Assembly. So over on the top of page seven is the proposed addition there that allows them to receive donations, grants, or gifts as well. Just something to keep in mind here is that, as Senator Vyhovsky, you may remember from this morning, there's a separate animal cruelty bill that's in Senate Judiciary that also has an amendment to this section of law of the Animal Welfare Fund that expands the Animal Welfare Fund that includes something else, which is the surcharges that are proposed to be included in new animal forfeiture language that we're looking at. That's okay because they're not in conflict, but sometimes the legislature will pass changes to more than one statute of different bills. We can permanent those later on as long as there's no conflicts. Just making you aware of that. So moving on now to section two page seven. This is a new section of law entitled sexual sterilization of stray cats with no known owner. This authorizes animal shelter or rescue organizations that have contracts with municipal legislative bodies to sexual sterilize a stray cat with no known owner. So I'm saying don't do it within one day after impounding. So it has to be at least one day later, but it does provide you authority.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Okay. Oh, so that was kinda what Shay was saying, how people aren't coming to pick up animals But that are gosh, if someone had it and then they're like, oh no, this was a special cat that was a breeding cat that

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I I mean, day seems like a pretty short period of time, but that's not But I get it. A council question. Right.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: If you're beautiful, I've the the Epsteinian cat disappeared or your, you know, your Now cats were home.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Like, it might take me longer than to take the trip out. Sure. But

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: that is Collam's question for you guys, whatever you think is the right time to get there. So moving along, this is the general licensing requirements, section three now. This is you were talking about earlier. Dogs and wolf hybrids generally have to be licensed as a fee. You'll see typically over the top of page eight, that line very first line. License $4 for each neutered dog or wolf fibroid, $8 for each unneutered daughter while fibroid. Now as I said it out loud in the person, I wonder if that's another place that we should have made the sexually sterilized change. Does that maybe it doesn't belong there? Yeah. Because we were trying to update that language ever in the other places that it appeared. So maybe we'd want to make a corresponding change there. So that's the current fee for licensing. You'll see the new language subdivision two. This is the 35 dogs limitation that you were discussing earlier. Mhmm. Not inclusive of dogs that have been sexually sterilized or dogs that are less than four months old. Yep. All right. It's moving along. All, you mentioned, I heard earlier that all, well, the proposal is right now, if you look at lines fourteen and fifteen, right now a dog or wolf hybrid six months of age or older has to be, has to be certified as part of their license that they've been vaccinated for rabies. So the proposal is to strike six months of age or older. So in other words, dogs and wolf hybrids genetic, have to be vaccinated for rabies. Doesn't have that age cutoff. Does everybody help me?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I'm wondering at what age you have to license them, and then I would wanna hear from a veterinarian about what age you typically vaccinate them. It's like I didn't bring home a fully vaccinated puppy, but

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: so

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I have a little, but that's not a legislative council question. Is there an age that they have to be licensed by in the underlying law that?

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Six months, I would say. Okay. Lines twelve and thirteen and page seven.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So it's not really a substantive policy change?

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Right, because of that, they aren't required to get a license at that time anyway. Right. Over on page nine, this is the requirement that in order to get a license for a wolf hybrid, animal has to be sexually sterilized. So that's the new language you see there, lines three to five, page nine. You see a bunch, over the next couple of pages, it's repealing a section of law that had allowed for a special license for breeding purposes for a method of hunting hybrids. So this special license, the amount of it is over on page 10, it's starting to grow, but you'll see lines two and three, page 10 was, there's a flat fee of $30 and then an additional $3 fee for each additional of the cannon. So it's a special license. The proposal here is to repeal that and that way the general license that I just mentioned, four, eight, that would apply to all animals. Wouldn't be a special carve out for those particular situations. Let's see. No substantive change. Section five, over on page nine. You see the next couple of pages, eleven, twelve, we just see multiple examples of updating the language of Spain and moving into sexual sterilization. See that a number of different times over the next couple of pages. One other substantive change on page 12, other than that is that right now, the there's this spaying and neutering now to be called the sexual sterilization program that's operated by the agency of human services. The idea is to provide reduced cost services to persons that need it. The way the language is now, line two, page 12, it says the agency shall implement the program through an agreement with a qualified organization, and rather than requiring that, the proposal to change the absolute may so the agency can operate it differently or themselves if they choose to.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Is this VSNAV?

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah. I believe it is. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I'm holding back any commentary on Vsnip, but we probably will have We're strengthening ourselves.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We may have multiple commentaries. We're that that we look forward to hearing from Lisa about Vsnip.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Next section is just more updating terminology for sexual sterilization. Then it brings to section nine, page 13. This is a current statute that requires animal shelter and rescue organizations to collect certain information about animals that they access. So that exists. This is a slight modification of the language. For one thing, Client twelve thirteen, if they collect the information, they have to report it to the Director of Animal Welfare. That's new language. So after they collect it, they report it to the DAW. In addition, there's a change in language to clarify when it is that this information may be collected. You see under the existing phrase, it's they have to make every effort to collect it. Whereas under the new language, they shall collect it if it's available. So, a subtle distinction. Caveat.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right, right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If it's available. Right.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Alright, the next couple of sections actually make pet dealers subject to the same licensing denial and reputation standards as animal shelters and other organizations for providing inadequate shelter for not having a permit or for violating the animal welfare chapter. So that's all going on for the next eighteen and a half, really. It's just adding pet dealers for these organizations that are now subject to those requirements.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: What is a pet dealer?

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: A pet dealer, every once in a while, I think ahead and start with the pet. I should bring all the steps just in case somebody asks.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I thought you did define

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Sponsor, House Government Operations)]: it in the bill. I thought we had.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: It might be. It's definitely defined in law. Defined in 20 BSA thirty five forty one. I'm not sure if that's in this Oh, no.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I don't

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: see this. Any person who sells or exchanges or who offers to sell or exchange cats, dogs, or wolf hybrids for any combination thereof from three or more litters, cats, dogs, or wolf hybrids, in any twelve month period. That's great error. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's it in a nutshell. That's why I was confused,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: because I actually thought it was a cat shop, I was like, I thought we prohibited. I thought

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: you could still and I realize it's a different animal, but by, like, a bird or a goldfish.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes. But not dogs, cats Right. Or wolf hybrids. Although it's interesting. Turtles. In some of these, I'm noticing that it's dogs, cats, and ferrets. Oh. But not rabbits. So not guinea pig. Rabbits are livestocks.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Well, this is, I think, a confusing part Yeah. Because there are a lot of domesticated animals, like like large bunny breeding.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Like a hamster in our house. Great finding that cat. Oh, really? Yes. I know. It's unusual. They get along great.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: My dog had a barren friend at one point. It wasn't my barren. Was my friend's barren. And for whatever I didn't feed him. I did I thought very variable I did introduce them, but can't do it. Rasels and smell.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. Rasels are nasty creatures.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And now have you seen the.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: There's the insurance in the attic. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You're right. So now we're over on the page 15, which is oh, this is the importation. Yeah. And animals are Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: 15. I thought we were on seven sixteen.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Page 15, section 12. It's health certificates for transporting animals into The States. This is current law, dog, pet, ferrets, wolf hybrids imported for sale, resale, exchange or donations shall be accompanied by an official health certificate. That's the existing language lines five to six on page 15. And the certificate there's some itemized list of things that have to be on that certificate you're seeing with one and two, the patient inspected for you, visible signs of infections or contagious or communicable disease. Subdivision two, current rabies vaccination. Then it adds, it proposes to add subdivision three. If it's a wolf hybrid more than four months of age, it has to be this health certificate has to include a certification that the wolf hybrid has been sexually scarabless. All right, we're almost done. That brings us over to page 16. This is the insurance piece that Senator Collamore was mentioning. So it's required for certain entities under this proposals, pet dealers, animal shelters, rescue organizations, and keepers of animals for breeding purposes, all terms that are defined in the chapter, shall as a condition of their licenses or certificates of registration be required to obtain and maintain a commercial re commercially reasonable level of general liability insurance. I ran that language by Maria Royal, our attorney who deals with insurance issues, she sometimes used just when certain general policies are required. So that's where that language comes from, the philosophy of words. But for some of those people, they don't have it now. So this would be a new requirement. If they don't have it now, then it would be a new requirement. Absolutely. You have an advertising piece here. These are advertisements for adoption or sale in Vermont. See, that's line nine, advertisements of domestic pets for adoption or sale in Vermont. That requires that they have certain identifying information, location of the pet, municipality and state in which the pet was located at the time the advertisement was placed, the advertiser's rescue or shelter license number, if any, and the license number, if any. Now, if it's just social media advertisement, that's line 16, for purposes of advertising on social media accounts, then those requirements that we just looked at only apply if the advertisers located in Vermont for transferring or offering to transfer domestic pets in the state of Vermont. So in other words, it's just someone who's in Vermont and Auburn in Vermont, then they wouldn't be covered by that. Lastly is the reporting section. There's a few also looked at earlier. This requires the Division of Animal Welfare and the Director of Animal Welfare to report back to you folks by December, I believe. Yes, by December year. This is over on page 17. The next steps necessary for the creation of a comprehensive animal welfare program in Milan. So that's a report we should be getting back later in the year. Any questions for Eric? All right. Any other questions that come up, though, let me know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You bet. Thank you for stepping in with our need.

[Eric FitzPatrick, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those topics that we all have some personal connection to animals, right? So it's a fun one to work on.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We all have an opinion there.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Lisa, you're up, if you'd like.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I would be happy to.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah, take the chair. Sure. I know we had some questions along the way, and I know it's getting a little bit later than some of us are used to doing,

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: but welcome. Thank you very much. Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare, and welcome. Thank you for having me here, and it's good to see you all again. I can answer some of the very specific questions you all were asking as well on. Then I also have thoughts on the bill, but I don't know if there'll

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: be enough time for me to

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Maybe you can send them as a memo if there's specific things.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sure.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I would like to leave

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: at 04:30 if possible.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, okay. That works.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: First of all, with respect to the age at which animals get rabies vaccinated, three months is the minimum age. The change that was proposed for this is to say no dog or wolf hybrid has to be licensed before the age of six months, but if somebody does license there, that four months, let's say, April 1 comes around, they have a puppy that's reached four months, they just want to get the license to go. If they're going to get them licensed, they have to be rabies vaccinated. They can wait until six months old, but not be late. Just so that somebody doesn't license a dog at four months, then doesn't get rabies vaccinated for any prior year. So it closes that hole. That was about Domestic pets are defined as cats, dogs, and ferrets That Shemong category can be expanded by the Secretary of Agriculture, I believe. I believe that that restriction is based on which animals need to be rabies vaccinated. Those are the three categories of pets that get rabies vaccinated, and so I suspect that Vermont's laws were focused on rabies Throughout the laws, it focuses on rabies vaccinations, the critical point. I think that's probably why your laws start with that domestic pet definition, which is a policy question. Those things can be expanded, but I think that's what's going on. Senator Clarkson. Ferrets. Ferrets are not domestic animals. And and that when were they added to the definition of domestic animal? I don't know because I've only been in Vermont since May. As COVID has not been

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: since May. Mean We can also review, reducing that. It would be interesting for us to know how many ferrets exist in the state as domestic animals.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: We wouldn't make it poor that they were required to still have rabies vaccinations, though, because they do. But every raccoon in this state should have had a rabies vaccination. And that's what you're gonna do after your legislative career. Oh my god. Vaccinated in the morning. Needed to happen. We failed our. I I mean, I

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: love Daniel Wolf's rose pet. Merits.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Just into more detail about your No. No. We've lost, you know, hundreds of pests raccoons because we failed to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: have a good vaccination program in the wild. And other states managed to do it much better than we did. We really failed to vaccinate panels that needed to be vaccinated. And I would hope we would never do that again if we're vaccinating ferrets.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: fully support vaccinating more animals and I have to have rabies vaccinated myself if you wanted.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, yeah. But rabies vaccinations, humans, is a hard vaccination.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. It's in your stomach.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Not anymore. That's post exposure. So vets and people in the animal welfare will a lot of times will get pre exposure vaccination. Is pre vaccination. That's what most

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of us have, is pre exposure vaccination for rabies.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: If rabies, you then yes, you have a pre exposure vaccination.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I had a post exposure.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I applaud your efforts in this program.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: This is good. With the certified rabies vaccinator program, I did want to say the problem we're addressing is in part, both like Representative Waters Evans said, in rural parts of the state, can be difficulty to access vet care. New For example, I moved in, I live in the Northeast Kingdom. When I started calling around for vets because I have six dogs, I was told the vets I was calling were saying, We aren't taking new clients. Not even a wait list or anything, just not even taking new clients. While that's a problem for pet care more generally, it's specifically a problem for rabies, and I was told by animal control officers that they are returning dogs to owners intact, unvaccinated, that they pick up stray because they are not able to get a timely rabies vaccination for them, and shelters are reporting that they also, when they have animal control contracts, they are returning animals without being vaccinated because they are not able to get them timely done, and even when they charge a $50 deposit, so the person will get $50 back once they show proof that they got their animals rabies vaccinated. When that dog comes in again, it's still not vaccinated. We are trying to make it so that these animals are getting vaccinated because to your point, we need higher vaccination rates if we want to have this barrier against rabies. Maine, Arizona and North Carolina, at least, all have certified rabies vaccinator programs. They all do them slightly differently. This one is modeled for Maine's and Maine's has only been in place for a year now, but all three programs seem to be working really well. The BBMA has not taken The Vermont Veterinary Medical Association doesn't have an official stance on this yet, although Catherine Gray, who is the Executive Director, has committed to working with me on this and she personally supports it, but they to go out and survey their membership and get the information back. I spoke at their winter meeting about this topic and the veterinarians, they are generally supportive. In general, non vets already order rabies vaccines. They receive them for the clinics, they store them, they prepare the rabies certificates, they keep the records, In fact, vet staff can already get rabies vaccinated under the direct supervision of a veterinarian. You have to vet there. People in Vermont, residents are allowed to rabies vaccinate their feral cats if they want to vaccinate their own feral cats, but you have a statutory provision. Non vets already do all of the stuff around rabies vaccination. It's important that it be done carefully and correctly, but we believe it can be in all these other areas. The only thing that is changing here is that slightly larger category of non vets, but under the indirect supervision of vets, would be able to give the rabies vaccination to make them more available. Are rabies vaccinations intramuscular or subcutaneous? Subcutaneous. Okay. Is it live attenuated vaccine or is it No. Okay. It's not and it's an incredibly safe vaccine. There are very few side effects. The primary side is that if it's in war in cats, there are forms of rabies vaccination that you could give to a cat where they might develop a tumor. So it is important in cats, really, that you're giving this low down on the limb that there's actually space to give it because if you have the canopy tape you want it to be lowered down, but that's not an immediate thing. That's not something you need a vet to deal with the adverse reaction from in the moment. It's a non emergent situation, something that three months later you might need a vet to help with. In the moment the vaccine is actually a very safe one and has very low adverse effects.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Is it a refrigerated vaccine? Okay. It is. Sandra Clemson. So we certainly have a problem with the dearth of veterinarians in particularly the Northeast Kingdom that go. And I know there there are other parts of the state that are under that as it were. What happens in Northeast Kingdom when an animal, a domestic is bitten and is will one of these vets who won't take

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: them as a regular customer,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: will they take them to do an emergency procedure and get an emergency vaccine? There are What's antidote if an animal's been bitten who hasn't been vaccinated yet? If you can't capture the animal that bit them, so

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: you can't quarantine the biting animal, the bitten animal, it's about a six month, maybe seven to three or four month, but it's a three or four month isolation protocol where only rabies vaccinated people can interact with them. Generally, honestly, that animal's probably being euthanized. Right. There is a rabies protocol around it. I believe that the Department of Human Services actually is the vet that you consult for that. So I think if more people knew that fact, they would

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: get their hands straight in

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: the face. We actually had a really sad case where there were four puppies and small dogs that interacted with a skunk. This was in Georgia when

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I was there.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Little whites and marks. The skunk was actually albino, it was quickly identified and caught and it was killed and sent for testing and it was positive. None of these puppies or small dogs had been vaccinated.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. So I think it it you know, just to your point about the the the $50 incentive. If more people knew that if their unvaccinated animals were gonna be euthanized Right. If they've been bitten, they would get

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: their animals vaccinated. That's only They can't. There's no one to vaccinate. Yes. There are. There are plenty of vets around this, and you could take

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: if you live in the Northeast Kingdom, you could bring your animal down to Pipe River and get vaccinated.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Your animal will only be euthanized if you report the bite. So you are somebody who takes your animal to the vet in the first place. Right? There are a lot of animals that are bitten on an everyday basis and they never show up at a vet so they don't play into the system. Right. Of course, the fear then is that, yes, that thing that your dog was actually, rabies positive and now your dog bites you. Yes. So I agree. I think education could do some portion of this, but I also think making access easier can help as well.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Really quick. Senator Morley, that's okay. Hope Memorial Frontier Society of New Orleans. So could a veterinary veterinarian teach, show, train an individual there in order to provide, because they do the spay and neutering there too, to also

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Under this provision, yes. So a shelter staff member could be trained to administer it they would be doing it under the indirect supervision of events.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that's what I'm saying now, so that may help some of us. Yeah. Well,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that the only area of the state that is under served by veterinarians? I didn't think so. No. It's problem with too few vets in the state.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: It's a problem in the generally, especially since COVID because a lot of vets went part time or they retired and we have not replaced that. Harder to get into veterinary school than it

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: is to get into medical schools because there are fewer veterinary schools.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: There's like 33 or something.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah, and we have an opportunity. I wish Vermont were so ripe to create one. We have a vet tech program at Vermont Technical College, but do we have a veterinary school? No. We need one.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: We have an agricultural college. But we have an agricultural college. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It makes no sense that we have no veterinarian. I would agree. Program. I wanted somebody with very neat pockets to endow at at UBF. That is about By Eric. On that note, fundraising note, Eric leaves. And we're gonna do this hour.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: And it may be an unanswerable question, because we've got some licensed dogs that we don't know about, but what our vaccination rates for rabies are in domestic pets. It's hard to say what they really are. What we know is that there are about 65,000 dogs that are licensed annually in Vermont, but we know from statistics that there are likely more than one dogs 100 in Vermont and it could be significantly more than that. Just because they're not licensed doesn't mean they're not vaccinated, they go together a fair amount of time. What we know is that of the stray dogs that don't have ID that get brought into shelters, a lot of them are not. The owners don't produce the evidence of it, so that's how we know You're that not giving antibody titers or anything crazy like that, because they might be and the owner simply might not have the documentation. Might be owners are generally pretty motivated because they get actually, don't have the case here, but they wouldn't have to pay a $50 deposit if they produce their ample size, because they're But I realize that might be a somewhat unanswerable question of what is the real rate of vaccination. Yeah, the problem is we don't know how many dogs there are, right? Or cats and ferrets. Or cats and ferrets.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Maybe we could add this to our ancestors for the grand list. I

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: didn't wanna rat. It or not. I think you're

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: part of the census.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Or part of the census. I mean, you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: know, it just doesn't look familiar.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: I have a number of specific I've been invited to actually come testify I did want to bring up on the question about the stray cats and whether neutering them in twenty four hours or later is fair to owners. The truth is the way this is drafted is it's only stray cats that don't have a known owner, so your cat has to be stray and you have to not put any ID on, including a MicroCheck, for example. So if you have your valuable Abyssinian cat that you want to breed, and for some reason, even though you want to breed it and you think it's valuable, have it buddy at large, intentional or not, microchipping it will prevent it from being neutered under this provision. Central Vermont Humane Society, their executive director, testified to the House gov ops and looked at the data from 2024 for her shelter. While a number, 50% or more of the altered cats that came in got reclaimed, zero of the intact cats that came astray were actually reclaimed by others. This is a national trend. In general, if a cat is intact, it's not getting reclaimed because cats have interesting relationships to their people. Unlike a dog where people frequently look for them immediately or they with the cats, a lot of times cats come and go and they might adopt several families and no one family thinks of them as their cat. Unless somebody is investing money, which is staying and neutering in cat, there's a really good chance nobody thinks that cat is Right. The point of having them altered is so that then when they come off stray hold, can be immediately adopted out rather than having to wait for the next dental appointment. They're not all going get done twenty four hours after coming in. It's more making us for the shelter so that if you have an open spot, you slot this cat in sooner rather than later. Cats are also, intact male cats are also incredibly hard for shelters to deal with because they spray. And that is a scent that is very hard to get out. And so holding intact male cats in shelters is a

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: really obnoxious thing. Yes, it is.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: So that's where that is coming from. Where there is a known owner, their sub ID, then hold them for the stray period and then only stay new to them after that stray period. But where there's no known owner and cat stray, nobody's coming from the mall, certainly. Would

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: you be able to come back next Wednesday? I would. We'll put you on. My agenda says it starts at 01:30, but I don't think that's gonna happen. I think it's gonna be more like two or half. The floor is gonna start getting busy again. So I'll have Lynn put you on witness list next Wednesday. Yeah. Sounds good. Okay. Lisa, thank you very much.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Sure. Thank you. Lisa, it's so good to have you on board. I'm enjoying and we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: have needed you for Yeah. We really need you know, ownership of this office. So that's great.

[Lisa Milet, Director of Animal Welfare (Department of Public Safety)]: Okay. Gonna go ahead and, right, it'd be good to ask.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We'll go over the, appropriations request tomorrow. I also know if you want to, head along. And so, that's it for the day.