Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Super short press again for Ernie. Afternoon once again, and welcome to the Senate Committee on Government Operations meeting of Wednesday, 03/11/2026. That's positive. Tucker Anderson has joined us as we look at a 21 page bill. We had met earlier with the house counterparts on this. And again, for those of you who are watching on YouTube, we have series of reports that we require different agencies and departments to make, and every now and then we kind of like to know how useful they are, who might be reading them, and all that. So we have an act relating to legislative review of reporting requirements. And Tucker Andersen is gonna walk us through, at a very

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: high level, this 21 page bill. Tucker, welcome. Well, good afternoon, Tucker Andersen, Legislative Counsel.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We do have in front of

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: you H-nine zero seven as asked by the House. I'll be working from the unofficial version. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Sorry. Is there? Sir? Here. Assistant? Yeah, know. Sorry.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: I just haven't looked fully. Yes. Excellent explanation in the background. Under two b s m section 20 d, the office of legislative council is required to remind you on a biennial basis of the reports that are subject to review before repeal. By default, every report, unless it is exempted from two VSAs in any subsection d, must be reviewed five years after the date of enactment to determine whether that report should continue in existence until the next review of reports, or be required forever, or until repealed at a later date, or repealed outright. We'll move through the sections. I'll tell you what the general Yep. Description of the reports are and what's happening to them. So the first section is going to deal the first chunk of the bill, all of the repeals. Section one repeals a report related to performance contracts and grants. It is the chief performance officer's annual report to the general assembly. Section two repeals a report from the DHR concerning temporary employees. There are specific reports from, for example, the Department of Corrections, judiciary movements, temporary slaves that aren't preserved in others against the other. Did you have a question, Jennifer?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I did. I one of my concerns, particularly as we look at government accountability, is that we don't listen and incorporate the chief performance officer's work as much as I think they ought. And if we are looking at the government accountability, which I think we are. Yeah. It just strikes me that I mean, I don't think we have to do this annually, but it does strike me that how we're doing on a bunch of wet in a bunch of measures, which is what the chief performance officer supposedly measure, certainly reviews scrutiny in a report every x number of years. I mean, to get I think we all wanna know how we're doing and how the state is doing in the measures that the performance officer measures. I I don't know. I'm kind of loathed to give up this report. Maybe not annually. I agree annually, maybe a little much, but sort of like the basic needs budget, maybe it should be at the beginning of each biennium so that the legislators have a question of how the state's doing in these areas?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, let me suggest this. We're just walking through the bill. Not Putting necessarily gonna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a pin at this.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah, and we'll definitely have a member of the House Government Operations Committee come in and explain why they felt it was necessary

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And to review maybe the Chief Performance Officer.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We can interview as many people as we want, because guess what? At first Friday,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I we're gonna have a lot of know. Okay. As of next week.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you, Tucker.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Can In my general introduction, I neglected to say something that I typically say when I introduce this bill on a biennial basis, which is that eliminating the reporting requirement doesn't eliminate the information the ability of the General Assembly to request an individual report or the appearance of a governmental officer in the future. So if this is the type of information that isn't necessary for an annual report but that might be valuable to the you can always pull the Chief Performance Officer into committee on the underlying subject sentence. Okay.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Figure on second two or 23.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We're actually on the I agree with you, Rob.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm not disagreeing. Okay.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Section three.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Chuck and I had a very hard morning in setting economic on Kansas. Okay?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Section

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: three reveals annual program report from the Secretary of Agriculture, related to the Agriculture, Food and Markets Council. In section four, another agricultural report, this one related to water quality was repealed, and the repealed language is actually few pages later on page six. And that's reports on the development of three separate vendors, the performance of the under the CLEAF. Section five, the Technical Advisory Committee report is reviewed as in section six, the annual report on the condition of education states live from the agency of education in the state of service. Probably a good time to also note something that I typically say when I introduce this bill, which is that the House Committee and Government Operations only made decisions based on their survey and the surveys they received from other committees. And when other committees fail to respond to the survey Like, all automatically deem it a vote for Yes. Because it wasn't important enough to respond to the survey, it is not important enough to maintain the statute.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So it is actually, I think no Senate committees responded, did they? Some did. Oh, they did? Some did. Oh, I'm very impressed. I we did. And I don't and we didn't go ops. Yeah. We did. But Senate Economic Development didn't. So we have the opportunity for us to review this. So thank you for that reminder.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Section seven. Yeah. It repeals an annual report from the Agency of Education concerning pre k education. Section eight repeals part of the prescription drug cost transparency report, specifically the report from the Attorney General on this program to the General Assembly. However, the data and report will still be posted on the Three Mountain Fair Board's website and, the Attorney General's website. So the report isn't disappearing. It's just no longer being delivered to the general assembly. In section nine, this repeals a report concerning community from the Department of Corrections. Section 10 repeals a report concerning the coordinated system of care from the commissioners of mental health, children, and families. Share this on those two terms. Okay, got it. Section 11. This is an example of an oddly framed annual report. It repeals a requirement for an annual report from the Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services concerning, improvements associated with a capital appropriation in 2010. Wow. It was a $50,000 appropriation that required an annual report that has been that has been required for '60 Oh, last. Information for this bill right there. Section 12, these are all repeals of an entire section, subsection, or subdivision relating to a report. So all that is being repealed is the report, but it's easier to list these out because we've taken away the whole thing. Alright, a report concerning activities in support of water quality, financial, and technical assistance. Subdivision two, a report on the utilization of services and expenses on choices for care. Subdivision three, a report on the use of appropriations for household weatherization. Subdivision IV, a report from the Superior Court of Public Records and Cases. Subdivision V, a report on the genuine progress indicator. Subdivision six, a report on Vermont Health Connect monthly on the basis. Subdivision seven, a on resources made available from the Vermont Enterprise Foundation Services. Subdivision eight, a report evaluating goals and performance of pretrial services and precharge programs. Subdivision nine, a report on concussions suffered by scuba athletes. Submission 10: Reports on Various Licenses Issued to Service Members and Veterans. You may recall that under this Act, four different state agencies were required to file separate reports concerning the licenses that they issued under their authority. Service members and subfield spouses. Subdivision 11, the auditor's report filed with a privatization contract does not achieve the required cost savings required with required performance measures. This was a contingent report, and to my knowledge, the trigger for the contingency has never happened. Subdivision 12, a report on the status of the Broadband Innovation Brand Program. Nothing but for none. Right, to get into another list on page 14. These are those reports that have been extended until 2030. Alright. The following reports have been delayed until 07/01/2030. Racial Disparities in the Criminal and Juvenile Justice System Advisory Panel report recommendations. The State Ethics Commission's reports concerning complaint scanners, training, recommendations. VIDA's report concerning Broadband Expansion Loan Program activities. The Rural Economic Development Initiatives report. The Office of Defender General's Annual Report, the Department of Public Safety's report concerning the sex offender registry, EMS Advisory Committee's report concerning progress towards goals of their five year plan, the VCJC report concerning fair and impartial policies of training, the Department of Public Safety's report on drone use, the quadrennial analysis of recommendations and conclusions to Tax Decrement Financing Capacity Study is important. JFO is responsible for a portion of that report. I didn't know. So, sorry, JFO. It's in 2030. The Department of Buildings and General Services Property Management Revolving Fund Annual Report, and finally, PEP C Report concerning Bench Health. Okay. We are now in the reports that are exempted from 2BSA 20D and will not show up in future reports for deal reviews. They remain in statute until the general assembly determines at a future date to revisit them. Okay. In the Office of Economic Opportunities. As part of that office's annual budget testimony before the Appropriations Committees, that office shall report appropriations utilizing existing resources within the state government available in the office's weatherization data management system. It compiles performance data available in households weatherized in the past year, and I won't go through each of the individual required criteria. We're on page 16. Section 15, the judiciary's report of temporary employees is exempted from further repeal injury. In section 16, moving to page 17,

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: The Judicial Retention Committee. Required. Section 17, the Vermont Farm and Forest Viability Program report from the Advisory Board for the Farm and On Forest page 18 and section 18, This covers annual reports from the Secretary of Agriculture concerning activities and support of the objectives of the subchapter, including the use of state, federal, and private funds to support that. Section 19 requires the Treasurer's Local Investment Advisory Committee report to continue in the future and exempts it from further material review. Section 20, after page 19, exempts the Vermont Training Program report. Section 21 exempts the report concerning income from the lease of Mountaintop Communications, Sons. Lots of interesting reports out there. Yeah. Section 22 on page 20. They're only growing, these sites.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: But this is about a specific, particular, like conventional

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: What's it? This is

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: a company or is it the Littoral Mountain Top?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It is Littoral Mountain Top. Oh, okay, never mind.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Is it all mountain tops or just one place?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: It is a report concerning any income from a mountain top site that has been leased for self duplication to us, of which there are several. In section 22, this is a report concerning radioactive waste facility sightings.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Do we have many of those? We have one. We have one.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Tense,

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: But it's closed. It's been closed for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a long time. There's still a ton of radioactive crap on it.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: How do you know that?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Goes out there with her diner's time

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: for fun. It's all still there. No other state wanted our radioactive waste. Remember, we tried to send it to Nevada, and Texas, I forgot us. It's sort of sparkling.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Yay. I would just also note that radioactive waste comes in many forms, and the stuff we send in Texas is things like watch batteries. Right. And that some of these sites that we're talking about are not large capacity storage facilities. Are temporary holding locations. These are

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the tools for those sort of low level radioactive waste. Right, and we have some

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of those in addition to Yankee and to the Maroon site.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: You'll have to read the report. I am gonna hand that response to the future. Sorry. Retirement funds David, you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: probably have read it. Maybe he'll provide the answer. Correct. Is exempted in Section 23.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Reports on the creation and use of special funds by the general is exempted in section 24. And that's all, effective date is 07/01/2026.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Yes,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Senator Bugs. So under the repeal section on the things that are repealed, does that include all the committees in the state house? That are all the repeals that were assumed to be repealed even if you didn't respond. It doesn't look long enough to have all the repeals. Not all of them are different reviews.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So, I won't note that the vast majority of the reports that are subject to review might be given by an amicus measure, include the appropriations. So, for example, completely hypothetical, if you have just one of the two appropriations committees respond in full to the survey and determine that they don't wanna make any decisions right now, then a lot of those reports do not end up in the reports or bill bill, We have an affirmative response and indication from committee of jurisdiction that the report should be delayed or Right. Given the time that government operations committee had, if hypothetically they received a response, that 41 session law reports that can take to be required to be cut alive and permanently required, well, that would require forty one secondtions to be added to the bill that actually draft and create those reports in their definite form. And that did not happen despite me.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So, doctor, thank you very much.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you. Excellent job. That's a lovely, odd,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: accurate I've been practicing 21 pages long.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Those were words. Thank you.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, that's That's what the reading went.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Fine and efficient drafting.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It is. It's just so super. Thank you. So

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: let us move to a final item of consideration today, which is Senate Bill two ninety eight. Get to Boston's Voting Rights Act. And you look confused? No. Because commissioner I asked the commissioner

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I know. I know. But Oh.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We're we're moving I thought yeah. We got another bill. I appreciate that. Oh, thank thought you were asking her to come. Right. Okay. Good. No. No. No. I'm just getting on board. I forgot that was the same bill. And do one section. No. No. I just put it on the section. I just kept thinking just somewhere else. But of course, it's right here.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So, again, just for purposes of those watching on YouTube to sort of set this up, we had a new draft presented which included police protection for elected officials. The governor is the only elected official at the moment that enjoys a detailed protection detail, and the bill called for that to be expanded. And we have the other five, I believe six that are statewide officers. The newest draft, which, again, I hope you all have because we're gonna build it at the end of our discussion. Draft 3.1, which you should have received this morning at 8AM, now no longer includes section five, which was the heretofore reference provision of the waste So that's out of the bill. It's not in the bill anymore. Nonetheless, I felt, based on our committee yesterday, that we should hear from Jennifer Morrison, who's our Commissioner of Public Safety, about the concern she had about that remaining in the bill. And as I mentioned earlier, maybe it wasn't online, I have talked with the Secretary of the State's office and we'll have more to say about that. But with that as sort of a lead in, welcome Commissioner, thank you for joining us and perhaps you can help us navigate.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Sure. Thank you very much, and for the record, my name is Jennifer Morrison. I'm the Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety. Congratulations, ma'am. Sad to hear the news of my dear. Had a single retirement. Very sorry. I'm thrilled for you. And for the fact that you had a Terry person's cookie. That's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: really so So I'll pass through.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Thank you. I appreciate that that section was taken out. It was certainly a surprise to me and the members of my team when we learned about it before business hours yesterday. We did do some very quick number crunching. And, you know, I I have with me captain Ashley Barnes who oversees the executive protection unit and our policy director, Mandy Booster. We're gonna be brief because we know that that the language no longer exists, but I wanna make sure that folks understand what our objections were based on, and they are not on keeping our elected officials safe. Obviously, we are concerned with the safety from all of you and those who hold constitutional offices, as well as members of the cabinet who tend to get probably more threats than than some of these other officials at times as well. So safety is our game, and we're very interested in that. That being said, the language as proposed yesterday included five new people that we would have an obligation to protect. I did have issue with some of the wording in here just as a general I'd have to obviously have my legal team examine it, but the commissioner shall ensure that the officer is protected. I can't ensure anyone's protection if they don't follow the rules of the protection team, if they don't give us the updated there's a million reasons why the person would not be protected even if we did assign an executive protection detail. But that's neither here nor there since the language is no more. I do think there was wordsmithing that would have been required to make that reasonable. Otherwise, it appeared to open a door of liability on my part. In order to spin up a a team to protect what I'm gonna use the term as a protectee. Okay? A person who opts into this provision as provided in in the draft. It costs approximately a quarter of $1,000,000 per officer, which would be approximately 1,000,000 in FY $26. I think it's more like $1,200,000 per protectee. So in order to protect one person, you can't just assign one sworn law enforcement officer. So that we would the bill, as written yesterday, was contemplating 20 new troopers, which don't exist, as you all know. We've talked about this repeatedly in this committee. And in order to make that effective upon passage as it was previously written, I would have to take 20 troopers off of criminal investigations or off of serving their communities out in the field, answering 911 calls, responding to crashes, etcetera. And that to me is an impossible task given the current state of affairs. But assuming this someday became something that happened, it would have to be contemplated at a time of much greater staffing and plusing up our staffing to specifically address this this increased size of our responsibilities. So I think I will leave it there and let Captain Barnes discuss a few details about how we currently handle threats that come in to elected officials such as the ones contemplated this.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Would be helpful, Commissioner.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Okay. You're welcome.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And please hold yourself real quick.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: You know what? I think I will.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you very much. You have to talk to us. Jennifer, before I got some too, Phil, but they're different. Long rise? Jennifer.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: think she's leaving.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: No. I'm not leaving. I'm sitting down eating my food.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, good. I just think this may come up at the house, so you may actually wanted to flush out.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: We've got more people. Mhmm. He's speaking to us about it too.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We're not

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: done with the conversation here.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I know. I'm out juice.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yes. We'll be ready.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We're done with the conversation just because we don't

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: I appreciate the heads up. I enjoy more than a few hours notice when something's going to require our participation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Second rule.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And there are more. There are more.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you. Ten second rule applies in this committee.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: I'm way the other

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: is so I watch it

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: being the vacuum every night.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So okay. Can I just confirm the numbers? It was 1.25 Yeah. We're gonna have one. First day.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Approximately $1,200,000 in FY $26 for one one pro no. For one protectee. The times that times five new protectees,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: and that's about $6,000,000. Per statewide. Per statewide.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That's for continuous protection. Correct? Not necessarily like a more ad hoc, there's a threat, they need protection?

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: That that contemplates a whole kit of well, I I don't wanna say full time because when we tuck them in their house at night and lock the door, they're on their own. But So

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: More which is why I used to continue as opposed to Yes, ma'am.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: Welcome, sir. Thank you. So Ashley Barnes. I'm a captain of the state police. I'm a special investigations captain, which oversees number of games in general. I'm gonna try to keep this really short because I think most of you understand how we investigate threats. Right? So what I wanna No, I can walk you right through it. I just don't wanna take too much of your time. So we do have a process that can go through typically threats will come through capital police, BGS, or maybe the official culture level video home. And, typically, those will go to our special operating captain who's captain, then he will notify the proper people. So it might be our criminal investigations unit, might be field force if they need to go to the person's house. It depends on the nature of the threat. And one of the things we do immediately, of course, is to make sure that there is an actual threat. Right? So so when you may say something like recording, although that can be very neurographic for the person, have to make sure the person's the the alleged is their First Amendment rights are protected. So if there is a credible threat, of course, it gets investigated, and then we'll bring in additional resources like the Defense Intelligence Center. If there's an actual threat, it may help us with some background person. Eguardians are typically done to go to the FBI's Joint Terrorist and Task Force. BGS gets involved with some of that, like recordings or video here, and then it walks through the the traditional investigative route. So we have a system in place to ensure that, like all citizens, everyone's protected, but we have a specific one that works to expedite how we handle elected officials and make sure it's not a very kind of fashion view.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Senator White?

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I guess I've never experienced that, and I've had multiple threats against it. I think many of us have. So I've never experienced this process. Okay. So I guess maybe it happens, and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I didn't

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: know. But what I have experienced is getting threats Mhmm. Sending them to the Capitol Police.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Sure.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And when the Capitol Police weren't available, I went to dispatch in Montpelier, and then the dispatch in Montpelier sent me to state police. State police said they would look into it. So I'm not sure what you're describing is happening in the real world. Maybe it is, and I'm just not aware of it. I didn't even know you guys covered elected officials. I thought you only covered the executive branch.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: No. I mean, if if it's in this building or if it's geared towards these grounds, we, of course, help Capitol Police with that investigation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: And if it's done, say, the threat is from your residence or you personally in your home, if they have their own police department, typically, they will be assigned to Yeah. Offer the same assistance they would have the same assistance from us that our troopers would get would get or our detectives would get.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Okay. So it's not like you would inform the person who is under threat that those things are happening behind the scenes, Or would you typically tell them?

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: I think it would be ideal if there was open communication. That would be good.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. I

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: think we we know that the secretary of state in particular was perhaps not that happening in her situation where she felt that there was not there was a credible threat and then there really wasn't support offered. So, what happens in the instance where someone says, I think this is credible. I feel threatened. I'm worried about my safety but there's a disagreement. How do you communicate that? How do you say, actually, we've looked at it. You should feel good. We think this person is in Nova Scotia or you know, like, how do you clarify what the threat level is that you deemed it to be back to the person who's being impacted? And how do you make those decisions about

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: what a credible threat is?

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: It depends on who the threat is reported to.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Let's say the secretary of state. Let's use that example because that's what the bill is.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: So it probably would have come through BGS, and they would call that would typically come through the office constituent services line, and then it would be pushed out for the BGS, looked at it. Say I don't know. I don't know the circumstance of that that particular instance, but let's say it was a voicemail or an email.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Sure. Yeah.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: BGS may look at that and actually say, like, this is harassment. There's there's not a direct threat here. And it may be reviewed at that point by the traverse assigned APU. They do the threat assessment on that and say, yes. There's rightful threat. You know, you can sign out to either PD or else in this case to say, just to say police. Yeah. And they will investigate. But if the church is signing up, they're look at it and say, like, saboteurly, can't investigate the other crime. That's when the investigation would stop. But there should be I'm not saying this happens. Mhmm. There should be the exact reverse of that, letting the people that report him in know. Current circumstances here is why we can't prevent the crime or disbursed civil rights.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Totally, yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Or they're not The

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: fact that that's not

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: happening can pull my

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: chair right up next to you, Chittenden Barnes.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: Uh-huh. So the fact that that's not happening is unfortunate. That's something I can personally address

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Okay.

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: Like that. But we I I don't I

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: I would know that person. I would like to step in here and say that before he became the captain in this position, I'm aware of some of the threats that the state's attorney, excuse me, that the Secretary of State reported. And I do not want this room to be the place where those are adjudicated because we work very heavily. I personally was involved Oh, okay. In resolving some of the threats that may have been referenced, and we had a full throated response.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, okay.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: It did not result in an EPU style team being assigned twenty four seven. That's a fact. That's not within our resources. It's not impossible. So I think I would have much preferred to have Secretary of State reach out to say that all those efforts we went through were not satisfactory and here's why. But airing those out inside this room is not my preference. I would also say that a constitutional officer, particularly one who has law enforcement in her own shop, could choose to invest in executive style protection. There's more than one way to train people in the art of executive protection, and it can be privately contracted as well. There are more resources available for the one offs that I think Senator Vyhovsky might have been talking about than assigning a, you know, the equivalent of twenty four hour detail, not a VSP. But any perceived lack of service, I would much prefer to address directly with the Secretary of State's office because I promise you, I was deeply involved in that, and, I was heretofore unaware that there may have been an unsatisfactory outcome to serve.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And what happens now let's say the governor the habits of the governor. Let's say the same set of threat threatening behavior. What is the process there? Or, like, I assume it also

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You know what? We're not gonna we're not

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: gonna publicly discuss threat analysis and how we arrive at things. I think a very important point is that there is a huge gap, and I've said this in committees before about people's perception of safety and safety. People can feel threatened by First Amendment protected speech, whether that's in writing, or in a voicemail, or in a face to face interaction. Because a person, any person, it doesn't have be an elected official, feels threatened does not mean that the behavior rose to the level of a threat.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yes, I think just to clarify my point, because I think there might be a slight misunderstanding in what I'm trying to understand with my questions, is I'm trying to understand what are the differences between protection levels that are afforded to the executive branch. That's what the point of the bill is. Like, I'm not I'm not trying to air some grievances. That's just the language we have. And the statewide level folks who are also very visible. So I understand you don't wanna comment. I'm trying to think of a way to get an answer to that question without you feeling defensive about, like, releasing secrets about it. So what

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Well, it's not secret that he rolls with a security detail.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right? Don't know. They're obvious. Right? So I know the governor.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: The governor rolls with a security detail and there's Yeah, or I less of them depending on the nature of the event, depending on the climate generally, depending on any specific threats that may have been received.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: So we can scale up or down the governor's detail for a period of time or for a specific event based on the context. So threats that are received against the governor are evaluated in the same manner that happened

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, our yeah, that's what I'm trying to There's not a different it doesn't go through the police or

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: No, all threats are evaluated to determine if they are deemed to be credible. And then once that threshold is crossed, the who, whether it's the local PD, state police or someone else, the root of the who's written the what depends on the agency jurisdiction to some degree. But our process is he laid out pretty clear.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I appreciate that, and I certainly have experienced my fair number of threats, and I've been through involved in the communication of the process you just described once. Other times, it was not so communicative. Mhmm. I think the reality of it is is that the political climate is tense. Mhmm. Threats go up every year, and violence has in in sort of political violence has increased. We've seen in the last year elected officials being murdered in their homes. And so I think what I am hoping through this conversation is while we figure out what is a longer term solution to respond in those instances when someone's safety and life may credibly be at threat because of their role in the public eye, what some interim solutions might be, particularly as we come up on an election that may be I don't I don't have any interest in blaming anyone or what what I'd like to do is come up with both an interim and a plan for a more long term solution, knowing that it's unlikely that in the near future that that political tension is going to decrease and the rates of political violence are going to decrease. I don't know that what we're doing now I I think it is I'm trying to think probably on this. I think there was a time when it worked very well and I think we're at a point where we may need to think about scaling up respond to the moment we're in. Sure. And so I wanna think about what is the interim for this election, and then what is the plan that we can work to build in going forward.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: You know, appreciate what you're saying, I agree with you that this is not related just to elected representatives. We live in a time in our society where people default to violence much more quickly than they do. There's a lack of civil discourse, all the things that we have noted along the way. I would also point out though, we have to be really careful about the slippery slope. So where does the protection end? Right? I mean, I would argue that Secretary Saunders has probably received more threats than anyone in this building in the last couple of years. You know, do we start protected cabinet members with executive protection style teams? Do we well, for sure. But it's a it's a dollar sign problem at the end of the day, and it's a human resource problem more than anything. I could not provide two more troopers, 10 more troopers, 20, whatever it is, to do that without taking them off of other duties that the general citizenry may feel, you know, response to crimes in communities, response to 911 calls, crashes on the interstate, all the things that they respond to. It's not a luxury we have right now to say, let's talk about unfolding the pen wider to be able to be more nimble. So in this exploration, we're going to have to consider other things than strictly growing APU unit of the state police. And that could involve private contracts. That could involve other things. And I appreciate that.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And by no means am I suggesting that everyone gets a emotional need to know, but I do think that having the ability to deploy that type of protection- Sure. When needed, more broadly than just the executive branch makes sense. And if it's secretary Saunders, then it should then go she should get that too. Yeah. I just I think the difference yes. I think that when you're in a, you know, particularly tense time, I think the difference when you're in these seats is the public scrutiny and that you're in the public eye, you're on TV, you're in the newspaper. So I know we're not gonna have a long term solution right now. Is that nimble deployment of you have done your investigations. Again, this is credible. This person's in danger. We wanna deploy something to to protect them. But I do wanna think about how do we piecemeal something together, particularly as we come up on the twenty twenty six elections, knowing that we have some people in the public eye, particularly the secretary of state's office, our federal administration has threatened all 50. So so that there may be a legitimate increased risk to their safety. Sure. And I

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: think that you pick the topic du jour and pick your position on it, and any one of you could be find yourself in

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: that space.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: I know. I know. I'm sure you do. I think that we can certainly be useful in finding a short term plan that can be very nimble and adaptable. But when I read a bill that says it's a six month at a time and can be extended at that person's request, that's permanent, that's a permanent executive protection team. Yeah. And that's not something we have the ability even if I had the people, we'd really get into an equity issue of why that position and not your position and not somebody else's. But but, again, we can be part of crafting something if it were truly to address short term threats to leave, you know, evaluate that the threat has diminished or until, say, target hardening at the person's home could be done, you know, measures can be put in place.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And that would be my help Sure. Of of what we can work on together, like, that sort of interim and then kind of what is the longer term plan for that type of nimble response. Sure.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Clarkson?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And to follow-up on Tanya's point, Jennifer, to go to what I was trying to say earlier, I think the House will be very interested in developing an interim. And when you say we are going to continue This bill at the moment doesn't have any of that in or the recommendation to look at this for the future. So my guess is that may be taken up in the house and I should prepare for that. And I guess my other trust is just a mundane one, but an interesting one because I helped create SI SUIs SIUs all those years ago in house judiciary. Do you oversee all the SIUs?

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: Oh, no. So that is a confusing term. So the SI campus, special investigations for a fall. So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: you don't oversee all

[Capt. Ashley Barnes (Vermont State Police)]: of No, I'm a member of SIU for five years, I would like to be seeing many years ago.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Just curious.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: So I just wanna make sure that I put a fine pin in it. We are deeply concerned with everyone's safety. Right. It was what we have given our lives and our oath to do is take care of people. That section five as written was setting us all up for failure. Yes. The way it was written. Good. And we we are eager to be part of a solution that can be nimble in short term. Mhmm.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. One more question.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I I had a question for you. Knowing here I'm kind of that process and knowing, like I said, I've sort of experienced multiple different communication levels. What is the standard for sort of communicating what's going on to someone who has either received and reported a threat? Or the instance I had a lot of really great communication was the threat didn't belong to me. It came about me, and then Capitol Police let me know there was a credible threat and that it was being investigated, and they let me know the whole process and kept me in the loop. But every time I've reported a threat, I've sort of gotten like, okay. Yeah. And then there's nothing. So I have not known that that's happening Yeah. In the background on on every threat.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Because the Capitol Police, I think, have been they've been very responsive for me and have kept me up to date with the people that we've that we've asked I've asked them to follow-up on when I send emails or relay their

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: to Are we talking about recent past or long ago past? Like, can you give me a little perspective here?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I know recent past this year.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. The the one that I got a lot of communication on was fairly I

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: mean, I've always had passed.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I've only met her five years. Was fairly was longer ago. Some of the ones that felt a little bit more like I wasn't being communicated with, and it was particularly during, ultimately actually ended up in criminal charges against someone stalking me. That was fairly recent.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. This last month, I got a very sexually explicit torture video sent to me. So, you know, is that a credible threat? Not actually considered a credible threat, but it still made me question the safety of myself and the people noted in the email. And I don't know where that is. You know, I never got any follow-up other than You're gonna follow-up. Well, I had follow ups, but they went and asked the guy how he's doing. They sent me another email with more images. So, you know, it's like it I guess what I think would be helpful is if we could get a clear standardization of what we can expect and what state level folks can expect. And I don't know. I mean, like, at at this point, it's like, it's just a part of the job is kind of where I'm at. With a lot of it, it's just it's like, it's just a part of the job. So I I totally hear what you're saying, but there is it it makes me less able to advocate for people to serve in elected August Agreed. When they ask me, oh, you know. So I think that the questions that Tanya Vyhovsky is asking about interim steps will be really helpful. And the Capitol Police is great.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: That's no shade on the Capitol Police. Well, I think I wanna understand, like, are we talking about wanting I mean, we know what we do when we determine there's a credible threat. I think what I'm hearing you say, but I don't wanna assume, is that you would like the Capitol Police and any local police who receives a report of a threat from an elected official to have the same a same protocol that's known and can be sort of gauged how the response went.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Well, it sounds like you have, I guess, what's confusing to me is it sounds like you are doing it, but it's like we never hear like, oh, and this is the outcome or

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: This is what's happening.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: This is I guess it sounds like you're doing it, though. And maybe it's because they don't actually go through with the threat and it never comes back up.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: I'd like to know a little more specifics about your case so we can try it out. If it never comes to us, we can't follow a protocol.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If it stays at the local county It wouldn't just be as big. That's true.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. And and I think that that's what will sort of be helpful in in this space and time. You know, I think in many ways, has been a little behind the times and the degradation of community and civility, but we are there. We are no longer in that space. And and I

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: think we have to really think about how we respond to that.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And and some of to your point, some of it is about perception. Right. And I think Yeah. Open communication helps with that. Mhmm. Exactly. I certainly yeah. I mean, like Senator White, it's on a weekly basis that I get pretty horrific things. And it is I come to the point where I'm like, I don't actually think that that is what we want our elected officials to be doing, I don't think that that's particularly safe to be normalized.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. And and it leads me to think that we actually probably need some better training between the VSP and the Capitol Police at the beginning of each triennial. I mean, I think we need

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: we need to do when you receive Yeah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think we need, because I think it is about communication. Just, you know, we need to follow-up. It's hard to put this ugliness in them to have no response or little response. So I think actually it would be great for us to also think about how we prepare and train both, know, train them the protocols so they understand what we can expect, where we go, what we do, and then how you also will respond to our the Capitol Police. And when it goes beyond the Capitol Police's ability to track it and do that investigative work and, you know, just communication is always going to be much.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, so for me, that's where it comes in. This Capitol Police has done an excellent job hardening this building when needed, and protecting this building when needed. And but I but what everyone who's protected by Capitol Police in this building might still be an under threat when they leave Sure. When they drive home. And and then what? Yeah. And and I think that these are some of the areas that that we need to I think, like I said, work together to bring up to be able to respond to the twenty twenty six realities, but in the interim, think about how we navigate them. But I appreciate your willingness to Yeah. Of to the table and to think about how do we build out these systems so that we don't have something awful happen like

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: what happened in Minnesota. Agreed. Okay.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you both for coming in. We appreciate that.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: Keep agile, nimble, eager. That's what we need.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Particularly when you get copies. I'm glad dropped mine on the side. Yeah.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: That was really sad.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I wanna be able to get the bill upstairs. Mister chair, I don't have any more to go.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, you don't have any?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I thought you had a pile of them. I do. I know. I only get, like, two or three. Three. Have anything. Thank you. So I will either move myself or entertain a motion to vote out s two ninety eight draft number 3.1. I'm happy to move that, mister chair.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, White, you have your

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: hand up.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: No. You go you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: go. So

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: senator Clarkson is, well, is there a second?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I just wanna check

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: the draft. I'm sorry.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: That's why it was

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: 3.1. And it takes out section five and nothing.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. You you got it this morning at 08:00. There's one other item that was changed. As one of the if sorry. For the record to Dublin legislative council, it's under voter intimidation. It was, the matter that it works kind of, raises. Okay. Confusion around that. So I just excised it, knowing that it's somewhat redundant, but I remember the, a later criminal sanction there, two of our, false information.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you. Thank you for Sure.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So this this is that's 291. So senator White is second. So I'll

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: ask 298. Focus. Got the number wrong.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So this is an S-two 91. Yeah, could do that too.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: S-two 98 draft 3.1. Okay, are you all set? I am. Okay. Senator Clarkson?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Morley, yes. Senator Vyhovsky? Yes. Senator White? Yes. Senator Collamore? Yes. Senator White has offered to report the bill. Okay.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So I've taken all up with you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: You'll need a clean copy And the Ericsson. And the rigid

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: If Lynn, you would be kind enough.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Did you file the original? Yes.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Sorry.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: What was the vote?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Five year old.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: 25. I think it is. It's my check. While we're waiting back, it was No. No. Behind you. All those people. Like, and No. No.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. I'm

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: sorry. Terry Korson's made new cookies.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Don't you Emma, you want one? No. I'm sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Take off. Take yourself. Literally. I have not.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I can't be

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: in this building. It's like, can eat so much sugar when I'm in this building? I'm like, can one of the lobbyists just bring, like, a vegetable? Right.

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And then the cookies. Give me a Clementine. I wrote the like, sometimes you can You're kidding.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You're not gonna send money upstairs. That's really good breakfast food, instead of just the pastries.

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: That's but it's safe money. It is. We're gonna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Those are great breakfast. We'll give you a

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: good breakfast. We're a meaty group. We want safety, then shelter.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is gone back in.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, we haven't done it. Because we didn't can we change the the items still help? We keep it public price. It's a good question. Yes.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So we'll leave that with your white total in your name, and then

[Jennifer Morrison (Commissioner, Dept. of Public Safety)]: check. I'm gonna

[Sen. Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: take may I take the thing out?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. You'll bring that out to your person. I don't think you need that, have you?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That doesn't go. Then I'll just

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, listen. We'll talk. Thank you.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: so much. So that would include our work today, as far as I know. Somebody else has something else to make that we can definitely talk about.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you, Emma. Thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: With that in mind, we can adjourn for the day and see all of you tomorrow.