Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Committee Staff (Unidentified)]: My god. Yep, I need Welcome back

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to the Senate Committee on Government Operations Committee meeting of Tuesday, 03/10/2026. Our final item for consideration today is Senate Bill two ninety one. This is an act relating to travel disclosures for legislators and certain executive officers. With us again is legislative counsel, Tim Devlin. We have two instances of change from when we last looked at this, even though the bill itself is a strike all, but everything else is the same as when we last discovered this. Tim, if

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: you wanna just reference page one and page four. For the record, my name is Tim Dutland, Legislative Council. So the first change we have is insertion of a definition for staff. And this is relevant because there are those part of the disclosure entail immediate family and tag along staff that travel company. So staff will need any individual who supports a member of the General Assembly or an Executive Officer in the members or Executive Officer's sufficient capacity and acts at the direction of the member or Executive Officer, whether paid or unpaid or receiving academic credit. So this contemplates regular employees, volunteers, and insurance renewals. We have actually I can't see if it's not hiring because it's not

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: handled in the bill. Removal of

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: reference to the exception for basically so forth. We'll now have to disclose for travel that's paid by other states or territories. So we removed that language from an exception and inserted it elsewhere as far as another part of the disclosure related to any portion of travel that is paid for by other countries, sorry, states, territories.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Do have a chance for a jump?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: No, but-

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Can I remind you?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I remember we kind of went back and forth a bit on this one, and I appreciate this. So just to be clear, this also covers, you know, if a snowplow truck driver from Vermont, this doesn't cover them, for example. This is only folks who are an executive level staff person. Like, remember how Vermont we just sent a bunch of people in Massachusetts and it was paid for by Massachusetts, from my understanding.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Oh, right. Yes. So the individuals who have to disclose will be state officers, which are governor, lieutenant governor, treasurer, secretary of state, auditor, AG. Okay, so it's staff. And staff, so if they're traveling with the final driver, that's yours.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: But it's not the regular, okay. And you will

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: speak commissioners and deputy commissioners, and certain Okay.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Or interns or certain volunteers, too. Definitely. That happens. I'm not sure exactly in practice, to what degree that would occur, but it would encompass that. And then media families will get it.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Tanya Vyhovsky.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But the difference in this disclosure, unlike our statewide code of ethics that applies to every one state employee, disclosure does not apply to every single state employee. It's just that executive level. But to Tim's point, if the governor were to go to Massachusetts and take a snowplow driver with him, then then the governor would disclose those expenses for him and and the snowplow driver. But every single snowplow driver that goes and does mutual aid in Massachusetts does not have to disclose that they went and did mutual aid in Massachusetts. Thank

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: you. And I should just clarify that it's not only those executive officers that have to disclose It's also members of the Jefferson. Right. We do. Well said. Senator Wood. I don't have all the history on this. It's kind of a scene several times. What's driving this? Is I

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: didn't hear about this years ago. What, something's driving this that I'm not? Yeah. Well, that's an unfair question for No. I'm not asking Tim Dublin. I think senator Vyhovsky can answer it, and I think

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, we all

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think I can answer it. I'll let senator Vyhovsky answer it.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I mean, I have long been fairly vocal about the need for more transparency and more accountability within sort of government. I mean, I don't think anyone can deny that public trust is at an all time low. And Vermont, I think, gets a D in ethics and transparency. And so this is a step moving forward towards more transparency and better ethics policies. And it's not because I think there's rampant problems. This bill would apply to me a lot. I was just over the town meeting recess in London, and my trip was paid for by a group there to go speak about, you know, political work. I was there because of because I was a senator. This would apply I would if this bill were in place, I would have to disclose that. And and so it's not a prohibition on doing that work. It's simply a disclosure so that the public knows who is funding that work when it isn't our Vermont government or our federal government.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Fair. Fair.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Lewis. And in all fairness,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I mean, the the recent articles this summer and fall about the, legislators who went to, Israel in the middle of of the war was an issue and was raised and after Israel paid for that full freight and and all the Taiwanese trips, the the Taiwan Taiwan government asked for it. No one pays for a trip without wanting something in return. And I think, you know, it's fair for the public to know why somebody is sponsoring a Taiwan resolution or a you know, it's it's I think it's a fair thing.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. It's why I didn't know

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that what's fueling it in particular also that the Israeli the debacle over that trip? Because

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That felt like a small thing we could do to move us to a more transparent space and to rebuild public trust. I think there's more work to do. But this felt like a step in a good direction. A

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: good step in the right direction. Sure.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I've got a question, and I don't know why I didn't ask this before, but in the definition on page one, line 20, state officer means governor, lieutenant governor, treasurer, secretary, state auditor, or attorney general. Yes. It doesn't say anything about commissioners or anybody else, deputy commissioner.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: No, it doesn't. Is in the context of the state ethics code. So it's a preexisting definition, and it has to do, let's see, with I'm sorry. I'm just trying to suss out of my mind. There are disclosure requirements for, I think they actually are here for kind of number twos, commissioners and deputy commissioners, but different disclosures, essentially. I believe there are sources of e com disclosures. I'd have to double check that. Okay. So there are provisions elsewhere for those individuals in the state ethics code, but they're not addressed here. So those individuals who traveling would have to file their own disclosure, but if they are traveling with somebody who does need to file a disclosure, the governor, something like that, then the governor would have to file a disclosure, including information on those people's travelers' expenses. Okay, I guess I'm still not 100% clear. If I'm the

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: secretary of an agency, or I'm a commissioner or deputy commissioner, I don't have, that's not in this bill.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: That correct? You do not, if you are that person you're entrapping, you do not have to disclose. However, if you are a tag along to governor or the treasurer, something like that, as the governor or treasurer Something like that, then they have

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to disclose.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Yes, exactly. And the number one person would have to disclose any travel expenses of their entourage. Right, right. And so a deputy could be swept in that way, but they would not have to file themselves. So they would have to file But they'd to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: file themselves if they went on their own separate trip.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: No. Just because this only applies to the top tier executive officers. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I would say deputy commissioner is the top tier.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. So it'd be all fees.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So I thought this did apply to commissioners and secretaries, and it was certainly my intent that it would apply to commissioners and secretaries and their deputies. Yeah. I thought because of the language in the ethics code, they and the way this was worded, they did get brought in.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I I would hope

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I don't think it I don't think that's true.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I don't well, asked. Yes. Think that's a good question. I assume they were included in there as well. So they are not here.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I also thought that they were and had asked on Friday, because that was my intent, is that deputies and commissioners at or commissioners and secretaries and their deputies would be included.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Let me double check to see if they're stuck in incorporate my reference. I don't think so. Top of head, but I can double check. Okay. Tim, and also, is is legislator in your Yeah. Where's that? Those would be members in the general assembly.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, jeez. Right. It begins number one.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Member of

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: the general assembly.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Don't worry. It's Tuesday. That's the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: first thing. And and I heard on Vermont public that that days after a time change, that almost any behavior can be behavior.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, it must be true then.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: It must be true. Because,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Kim, generally speaking in in our code of ethics, don't we seek to apply it to both the legislative and executive branch sort of uniformly?

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: The code of ethics applies to all public servants, regardless of level. But, yes, indeed, just in two of the branches, the legislative and the executive, excluding the judiciary for certain constitutional reasons.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. I guess it would help to to know a member or executive officers, executive officers are commissioners, aren't they? How is executive I'm

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: state officers, so we have executive officers. I apologize. I misstated the law. We reference executive officers, which is defined here to be state officer and then deputy under the state officer, including an agency secretary or deputy and a department commissioner So, or

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: they are And the

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: reason why we put, why we have state officer here, is because I changed the number. So I can it's probably would have

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: been Wallace. Gave it a number.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Number a for reference, what executive officer means. Apologies. Okay. Yeah. I just

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And so it does include secretaries, commissioners, deputies.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Yep. It does.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Any other questions for Chittenden, difficult or otherwise? Okay, thank you.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Are we going to vote on this this week?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, we're gonna answer it's letter.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Just first.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. Speaking of executive. Yeah.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: But because

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I. Good

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: afternoon, madam secretary.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Good afternoon. I'm Sarah Clark, secretary of administration, and I am here to talk about s two ninety one related to travel disclosures because it does indeed apply to executive officers. And so I want to share a little bit of feedback on ethics disclosures in general, the bill, and then kind of what the executive branch already has in place for all of our state employees. So part of the bill that you didn't walk through today, but is on page five of, I think, the most recent draft, retrain one Yep. Where it talks about section three executive officers annual disclosure. And so this section has to do with the financial disclosures that are required by the executive branch and that we we do every year. I actually don't think it applies to members of the general assembly. So one of the issues I wanted to raise is parity in terms of disclosures to the ethics commission and that executive officers and the executive branch do every year file what is getting more requirements every year. I think there were some amendments, some items added last year, so it's a little bit more of an extensive financial disclosure, but that we do file it every year. We took we took And we do one as well. We took one to the ethics commission? To our No.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: To the senate guy who

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I don't know if the senate doesn't share that.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: They do share it Oh, with the ethics It's shared publicly. You can ask some

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Some of secretary's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But I don't like to But the mayor's office and

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: the secretary's office. I think the issue I'm raising is just the kind of, you know, what you're talking about now is adding a travel disclosure to both members of the general assembly and executive officers. And so whether we should be using the same process as it relates to financial disclosure that I do every year. I know that this year, because of some of the additions that were made to the law that required, for example, detain your spouse in the disclosure, But there was some concern raised by members of the cabinet about some security and privacy risks associated with the information that's now being disclosed and is publicly available by the ethics commission. I raise this for your awareness. If you want to hear more about those concerns, I could recommend some names from within the cabinet to talk to you more about it. But because I'm here talking about the bill, I wanted to raise that as an issue. As we put more and more information out there publicly and the, you know, kind of cybersecurity and related risks rise, which we're seeing, I I think there's more concern about that information. We did raise the issues with the ethics commission and responded, but I think it's still a concern.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And so Senator Vyhovsky? Thank

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: you, secretary clerk. I'm wondering if it would ease the concern if the spouse's name was allowed to be redacted, but their, you know, sources of income were still made public.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yes. I do think that that would be helpful.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Klipsch?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I have very mixed feelings about this. The spouses have deep influence on us and deep influences on how we make decisions and what we're trying to get at and identify and be transparent is who's influencing us. So I actually think it's important for spouses, and pretty soon we're going to be able to use the internet as a reason to not disclose anything. And I don't know, I had really, we added that after much debate with spouses. And I actually feel very strongly that spouses are biggest influencers other than our children, our parents. But I think that to not disclose spouses, having known many spouse couples in this building that has had profound impact on policy and on knowing where spouses are, I think actually it's very important for spouses to be very transparent.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I completed my full disclosure, full disclosure, right, including my spouse's name. I'm just bringing it to you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah, no, I I appreciate

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: appreciate her that was raised. And there are others that I can't speak as eloquently to, but, you know, it really is the point of parity, which you've provided me some information there and in terms of what are you know, what what we're disclosing.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I appreciate that. And and I know we also have to disclose spouses, but I'm I'm also really sensitive to the security concerns. And so I wonder if there is a way in which we could create a process that if there was a security concern, a redaction could be allowed, that it wasn't the default that it was redacted. And I do know that we have some very specific requirements around if one spouse is a lobbyist or ones, you know, that that would not be redactable. But I do want to try to find a space here where if there is legitimate security concerns, and I can certainly think of instances where there may be that there's a way to keep people protected. Like, I think there has to be a middle ground here where we're creating transparency, but creating an avenue for protection protection if if it it is is needed. Needed. Because I agree with you, Senator Clarkson. And I I you know, we we have I think there are legitimate reasons why someone might need to seek, you know, the sort of exception from the ethics commission that in a in a particular instance that that spouse's name might be redactable. But I I don't I wouldn't want it to be the default.

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: Okay.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I guess one of the questions I had and it came from one of the committee members, if the general public could look at this. Mhmm. In other words, if someone wanted to know what I make a year and my wife, all they have to do, I think that's posted on the Secretary of State's webpage. They just go and look it up and then they get their answer. In terms of the travel disclosures that the executive branch is doing now, is that able to be done the same way?

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: So thank you for the question. When what I really came here today originally was to talk about what we do now and what our current policies are. And so we have and you guys love it when I come and talk about bulletins. Mean, does. Bulletin 3.4 is our employee travel and expense policy, and there are a ton of details in there. And part of our policy requires when there are party payments or reimbursements for any employee that travels. Yeah. For, you know, their official capacity, that it has to get reported on a form just like travel has to be authorized before an employee goes and does it, and it goes, to the appointing the appropriate signatory to approve that travel. If it's being paid by a third party organization, there is a form that has to be filled out that identifies the purpose of the travel, who is paying for the travel, and the amount. And then that goes, the employee fills it out and it goes to the appropriate supervisor or manager or appointing authority depending on the department or agency. So that information has to be completed before an employee goes anywhere. The actual form itself with the information is not Unfortunately, it's not centralized. It's a paper form that is stored in business offices across state government, but it is information that we do collect, has to have a prior approval process. So I think it's very similar to what you're asking for in this bill. So my point is really to say the executive branch does have internal controls in place surrounding third party payments and reimbursements for travel. What we don't have is a centralized collection of that information, and it's not posted publicly. But it certainly could be. And I think we would also benefit not even from a from an ethics commission perspective, but that is why we have it to ensure there's no conflicts in terms of employee travel. But we could internally with the bill or with without the bill, we could centralize that information for for awareness by my office, by the governor, and by ourselves if that if that would be beneficial. But it's not quite the same as reporting it to an ethics commission. But I I wanted the the committee to know that we do have a process for this information.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sarah Vyhovsky? Is that a new hand?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It is. In terms of the folks that are contemplated in this bill, because it wouldn't apply to every state employee and wouldn't require the public posting of those documents, but the people contemplated in this bill, the statewide electeds, the commissioners and deputy commissioners and secretaries. And deputy secretaries, who approves their travel? Does someone have to approve the governor going to, you know, the governor's convention or the like.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yeah. So that's a great question.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So Approve the governor's travel.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: And and that is probably a little bit different in terms of executive privilege when the governor travels somewhere. But I know, like, if a secretary is traveling, that does get approved by my office. And so we do at that maybe your point is a great one, senator Vyhovsky, that for the people that you're requiring disclosure in the bill, that may already be centralized through my office because we have to sign off on it. When they're a secretary, let's say, from human services or natural resources, when they're traveling, it does have to get approved by someone higher in the chain.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And if in the bill I know there's some reference in the bill to using a specific form provided by the Ethics Commission. If we were to allow the the people con the executive branch folks contemplated by this bill to continue using the forum they're using, but require that posting, would that ease any duplication of reporting?

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yeah. I I think that would be helpful, and it may perhaps just reflect a resource on my team, which, you know, I don't have a big team, but, like, a a resource to to to figure out how to post the information publicly.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Mhmm. Yeah. Because I certainly don't wanna create duplication, but I think there are people contemplated that do not have to get their travel approved by anyone that should be disclosing who's paying for it. And part of it is not just about the disclosure or approval. It's about the transparency. But I also know that there was some concern about duplicated reporting. And so my thought was, could those folks use that, the new form instead? Or could we allow you to use the form you're using just with the requirement that it be posted to a centralized place. I yeah. Yeah. And for the big masses of statewide state employees, they can just keep doing what they're doing because it's not they're not contemplated by the bill. Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Would that satisfy you, Senator, if we have the secretary work on that, maybe in concert with the legislative council to come up with a way to phrase what you just suggested?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Well, it looks like this will be another one that we'll be looking at later in the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: week. Busy week.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. No, I really appreciate you coming in, Secretary Clark, and working with us to get to a place of a great where we can work on this together, because I think we have the same goals. We've just got to figure out how to get there in a way that doesn't create more work, because I know we all probably have too much on our plates as it is.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: And I obviously can't speak to the Ethics Commission, but I would expect they would have resource considerations. Hopefully we're going to

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: give them some more resources.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We are making it to giving them more resources, but they aren't gonna see they're gonna be irrelevant.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Anything else from Secretary Clark? Yes. You all set?

[Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel]: I think

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: so. I think so too.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: See you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: next week. Okay. So that will conclude our meeting today. We do have Alison Clarkson chairs meeting in twenty eight minutes. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And He knew that that was gonna be my next question.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So with that in mind, we'll adjourn for the day and see all of you tomorrow.