Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Good afternoon. I'm Gore, and welcome to the Senate Committee on Government Operations Committee meeting of Tuesday, 02/24/2026. Our final item up for consideration is s two twenty eight. This is an act relating to collective bargaining over remote in person and hybrid work standards for state employees. I don't see our legislative council, but we've already walked through the bill. So I think we're pretty familiar with it. I know that we have one person, Maria Ogden, who's a state employee who has a time constraint. She's with the Vermont Department of Health. Is she on Fine perhaps. No. Okay. Well, I don't see any

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: I am here. I'm here virtually.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: There she is. Okay. There you are.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: Alright. Can you see and hear me okay?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We can, yes.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: Excellent, thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Let us know how you feel about this and what we should know.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: Great, thank you so much. I got comments prepared and hopefully I will speak at a cadence that is comfortable. Let me know if I need to slow down. I'm a fast talker. But for the record, my name is Mariah Ogden. I've been an employee with the State of Vermont Department of Health since 2018. I've been with the agency of human services since 2014. I'm here today in my capacity as a citizen. I'm using leave time from my position with the Department of to speak about my experience as a state employee impacted by the administration's return to office initiative. I'm here in support of the proposed changes to S-two 28. To be clear, my comments here are neither approved by nor the official position of the Department of Health. I acknowledge and appreciate the Department of Health has worked to comply to support the agency of administration standards on short notice. And also apologies, I can't be with you in the room today, but hurrah for virtual options that allow work to be done regardless. So I'll start with a quick anecdote that yesterday I spent nearly an hour's worth of my time unsuccessfully trying to send a letter in the mail to a client. Not because I misunderstand how mail works, not because I don't know where things are, but because the hastily implemented return to office endeavor nobody bothered to reconcile my job duties with mailroom access. And so while this is a very minor inconvenience, I think it's a really good it's a microcosm of the bigger issue, which is fundamentally the administration unilaterally making major changes to the terms and conditions of state employment and continued refusal to engage in collective bargaining process related to hybrid and remote work. Had the administration engaged in collective bargaining, employees and managers may have had time to prepare, discuss, negotiate, and agree on terms and implement a well planned system for state employees to engage in in person work. I know my time is limited and I'm verbose, I'm wordy, but I'd be remiss not to acknowledge the disproportionate health department representation here today and calling out that VDH has been on the receiving end of a number of from my, you know, Joe Blow staff layperson experience, poorly communicated and executed decisions. My colleagues and I spent years required working on the COVID response away from our jobs. In addition to our jobs, I have a commendation on my wall there for my exemplary performance. And then in short order, after our exemplary performance, we were relocated from Burlington to Waterbury. Many health department employees, myself included, waived hardship rip right contractually agreed upon rights to us because we were told by the administration it wouldn't be a problem. We had telework as an option. We would not need to be going to Waterbury. Since then, telework flexibilities have been eroded. We have to beg our case to the agency of administration and hope our commute is long enough or story is compelling enough to qualify for what the administration themselves have indicated repeatedly would be infrequent exceptions. So I am here today asking for your support for state employees repeated requests for the administration to come to the table and bargain. What is a critical benefit for some sectors of public state government or our health department may not have as many exemplary performers to respond to our next public health crisis. Thanks so much for your time. Let me know if you have questions.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you. And I think I got it all.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: I'm a fast talker. I'm sorry.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That's okay. Senator White.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you, Chair Collamore, thank you, Mariah, so much for coming in, presenting to us. I've also heard similar situations from constituents, especially the travel time. Sandra Clarkson and I represent Windsor County, and so that would require employees who had the change happen to them unexpectedly to commute like over an hour, potentially both ways. Totally. Whether going to Waterbury, Montpelier, or perhaps even a different office in Ferry, for example. So I'm wondering if you could just give first of all, extremely brave of you to come forward speak because I think there has been I wouldn't call it retaliation because that comes with a lot of other things, but certainly a I think there's been a chilling effect on folks feeling like they can comment on this topic because of that response. So I'm wondering if you could just tell me morale wise, culture wise, how are things with this change in either the work that you're doing or what you're hearing from colleagues?

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: I will say, and I can only speak to my personal experience and those that I know, but the morale is lower than it's been at any point in my tenure in state government since 2014. I mean, I think the combination of the continued federal changes and incompetence, funding switches, priority changes. We have to comply with executive orders to have all of this administrative work when like my division and I personally oversee millions of dollars in funding. And so I to spend an hour on a letter when I'm trying to make sure that our community partners can continue to receive funds and critical services go like it's unnecessary. So I would say yes that is that's accurate and apologize. Did I answer your question? You did. Okay. Thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Clarkson.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So, Mariah, thank you. I was many a number of us were at the Vermont State Employees Association dinner when we heard testimony about this issue, and I would just support what you say about the morale. From what I understand, morale is pretty low at the moment in a number of departments that have been asked to to shift gears and move, particularly when they're given cubicles that are temporary. They can't even put up

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: They can't put up personalized photographs or because they have to share the cubicle with others, which is, you know, I understand, except I also know that we have a lot of space that we could manage flexibly. So I just would like to support what I've heard from a number, actually several state employees from a number of different departments, discouraged at the morale, at the low morale over this issue.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll add, right now the Department of Health, we are in a phase of the move. My division, we are one day a week and it is each individual employee is expected to reserve a cubicle, bring everything they need for the day and do it each week. And it's doable, we're doing it, but it is one more thing on top of what have been a million paper cuts during the current federal administration and beyond that, you know, real skilled qualified people have left and will continue to leave state government because of these petty asinine policies. Equality is not equity and results over real estate.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Maryh, when did you start working for the state? How long have you worked? Oh, sorry. I missed that piece.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: 2014 I started.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you very much, Brian. We appreciate

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: your testimony.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Likewise.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Stay right there if you can. If not, we'll do another witness.

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: Thanks.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you. Jen Campbell, is she on Zoom perhaps?

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Yes. Welcome.

[Jennifer (Jen) Campbell (Public Health Analyst, Vermont Department of Health)]: Thank you. I do not have the, the well prepared beginning disclaimer, but my thoughts are my own. They are not on behalf of the department or anything. Good afternoon, my name is Jennifer Campbell. I'm a public health analyst in the research and statistics division of health statistics informatics. My position primarily focuses on healthcare quality. I produced hospital report cards. I moved to Vermont in 1998 and earned both my bachelor's and master's degrees from UVM. Prior to my role with the health department, I worked as a social worker with a local nonprofit for almost twenty years. I was hired by VDH in March 2023. In August 2023, I sought and received permission from my division chief, division director, and deputy director to move my family and work 100% remotely from Maine. A large factor in my family moving was the inability to find childcare for our, at the time, one and a half year old twins. We actually were on a waiting list that we signed up for when the kids were born, and by the time we moved, we still hadn't gotten to the top of that list. My role does not require me to come into the office. It is not public facing. Any internal or external meetings I have with colleagues or stakeholders are held virtually and have been since the time of my hire. My quiet, with the exception of my currently snorkered dog, home office supports my work and allows me a distraction free environment to focus and direct 100% of my attention to this ask at hand. My most recent performance review reflects this as I received the rating of outstanding. My time to commute or will require me to either resign from my position, a job I love and well suited for and honestly hoped to retire from, or find housing in Vermont within a reasonable distance to Waterbury in a tight housing market, sell my current home, find and enroll my children in childcare, and my spouse who works in healthcare will need to resign from her position and find a new one. Moving to Maine has in no way negatively impacted my role. It provided my family with the support that we needed that allowed me to remain as dedicated to supporting the health and well-being of Vermonters as I was on my first day. The Return to Community Order and the way that in which it is rolled out has created an undue amount of stress and strain on my day to day life for no clear reason and with no real benefit for the citizens of the state that I serve. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share my thoughts and experience.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Does anyone have questions for Jen? Nobody. Okay, thank you very much.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: I guess we'd Oh, I guess we do have a question.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Where are you in that decision making? Have you Are you still in Maine?

[Jennifer (Jen) Campbell (Public Health Analyst, Vermont Department of Health)]: I am still in Maine. Yes. I filled out a a form to, extend my employment until the June 30 deadline, to pursue.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. Because I understand from a number of other people I know in state government who are working out of state that they're that the extension, the flexible work hours have been extended to June to the June for certain key people or for certain people.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: yeah. And then so hopefully there's an opportunity for the state to rethink things between now and the June.

[Jennifer (Jen) Campbell (Public Health Analyst, Vermont Department of Health)]: That is my hope.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I mean, don't want to cut off our nose to spite our face in terms of the expertise that we employ that happened to the vet. Right?

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Yes. Think

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Jen would agree.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think Jen would agree.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you very much, Jen. I have written down Helen Linda as well.

[Helen Linda (Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator, Vermont Department of Health; VSEA Council member)]: Hello! Good afternoon, can you hear me?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We can.

[Helen Linda (Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator, Vermont Department of Health; VSEA Council member)]: Okay great. Hi, my name is Helen Linda. I am speaking for myself and not my position with state government, and my comments are not endorsed by my department, and I'm taking personal time to be here. Thanks, Mariah, for reminding me that I needed to say that. I am the Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator for the Health Department. I'm also a VSEA Council member for the Health Department and the VSEA representative on the Governor's Workforce Equity and Diversity Council. I have worked for the state in a few agencies since 2016, except for a brief interlude with the state colleges, which is state government adjacent. I wrote a small novel, and I'm going to choose not to speak on some of the more work specific things and just speak to my personal experience, which is that while I am both able and willing to comply with this order, the stated reasons don't make any sense. The primary one being increased collaboration, it doesn't make sense for my role. It doesn't make sense for a lot of roles. The health department, like much of human services, transportation, possibly other agencies, we're all part of district systems. My role serves the entire department, so it's impossible to co locate me with the people I work with regularly no matter what, unless you figure out a way to clone me. So remote work is actually the only way for me to effectively collaborate within my department. And I know that because I've worked in central office roles in transportation no excuse me, pre pandemic and unless I went out to them or they came to me, our district office staff's voices were not heard. Now instead of having to having those collaborative remote meetings in my quiet home office that's ergonomically custom to me, I am spending most of my days in an open office environment or trying to find a tiny, loud focus room and still be remote on Teams. I'm now paying time, gas, wear and tear on my car, wear and tear on my body for the privilege of driving a half an hour each way to feel less effective at my job. And if the change is significant for me, a person who doesn't have arguably a long commute nor has children and is able-bodied enough to come into the office, it's catastrophic for many. We've heard for years and years about Vermont's childcare crisis, housing crisis, cost of living crisis, now this order is only contributing to all of them. And so it should have been bargained and adequately planned instead of being the sort of expensive and disorganized disaster that it is right now. Those are like my personal comments. I am part of what is arguably the Department of Morale at the Department of Health. And so I can also answer questions about that from a more kind of global perspective.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Yeah. So then I would ask Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. Thank you, Chair Collamore. So then I would ask, Helen, if you could describe you know, you're coming from a diversity, equity, inclusion framework, if I'm understanding correctly with your role. Have you seen? Yeah, if you could speak to the morale of folks who are in maybe those groups that we've tried to encourage to work for the state, are we having an effect on that morale now that they're here? Because what I heard from especially Susanna Davis is we don't have a recruitment problem. We have a retention problem. And I feel like this for Ted, perhaps if you could opine on that, it would be helpful.

[Helen Linda (Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator, Vermont Department of Health; VSEA Council member)]: I'm happy to opine on any of it.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So

[Helen Linda (Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator, Vermont Department of Health; VSEA Council member)]: I would say the morale in the department is especially bad with the folks who are disproportionately impacted by this order. That is women in the office, especially those that have families that they are caring for or chosen or otherwise. We are seeing especially big impact on our disabled community. Folks who took jobs that have actually gotten much better and easier for them to do in a remote environment and cannot really effectively and safely and health fully work in an office environment they didn't expect to have to. And so I think really the key thing here is that most of what is so disheartening about this is that people who work in the health department work in the health department because they have an ethical and moral drive to do good. That's why they work for state government. That's why they're doing this work. And it's jarring to see your employer treat you like a cog. It is a disjointed sort of moral injury that people are experiencing on the job right now, that they are giving everything they can to make the lives of themselves and their community healthier and their own health and contribution to that community and part of that community is not recognized by their employer.

[Jennifer (Jen) Campbell (Public Health Analyst, Vermont Department of Health)]: I don't know if that

[Helen Linda (Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator, Vermont Department of Health; VSEA Council member)]: actually answered your question. No, it did answer

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: your question. I've written down the term disjointed moral injury. Thought that was a really

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: good way to put that.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Terrific. You're welcome.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: You, Helen. We appreciate it. Any other questions for Helen? Okay. We have three more witnesses. I don't know who wants to go first. I have Sarah Clark, Beth Fistichi, and Emily Kasichi.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If I may? Sure. And Mr. Chair, are we not gonna hear from Carrie Brown?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: She has submitted written testimony.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Oh, yeah. I didn't I'm happy to testify if you have time and you'd like to. Oh, okay. You do have something in

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: writing for me. Right. It's on your way.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. It's on the web picture.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Great. It's not here.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Oh, good. Here, you could take the chair. Yeah.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Oh, good. Oh, no. Sorry. Thanks.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Thank you. All right, let me get myself oriented here. I am Carrie Brown, I'm the director of Gamakkashamwagands. We have, I sent a letter that you all will see. It's really, really long, so I'm sure you haven't read it. But I don't put

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: there. I just

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: saw you there and I thought, Oh, Harry's here to testify. So

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: back in August, the Commission on Women sent a letter to the administration about the return to office order. Sorry. My computer's hurting here. With some, asking for some considerations for gender equity, providing some research, and providing some information. And that is included in this giant Twice of the Page thing. That's why it's so long. That's part of why it's so long. Yeah. Since then, we've really kind of expanded looking at the equity impacts of this. We start from a place of what's the gender equity impact, but we don't stop there. We have looked at how does this affect people based on their race and disability, LGBTQ status. So, I provided some information for you to hear some research about some of these different groups, and then the really long part of it is feedback directly from state employees who have shared with us their thoughts. And so, any of you have had these conversations with state employees, you've heard a lot of this stuff, you've already heard someone's testimony, but there's a lot in there and I really encourage you to take a look at it. What we need to know next is what is the actual impact of this, and I don't think we're going to be able to know that for probably at least the next year or so. I mean, I personally know of people who quit pretty quickly, others who are facing having to because they live out of state. And so I know that we're gonna be losing people, but sort of the overall what we really would love to be able to to get down the road is who left, who you know, was it where was the impact really mostly felt? We can get that. And if people don't always share why they left to get to like that, then that's fine. But that is something that's a little bit missing. I won't go over every word of this. I'll just tell you that there are so many impacts that affect people disproportionately based on where they're coming from. You heard Helen mention about people with disabilities and, you know, I just kind of anecdotally, I know that there are people who have disabilities that are maybe not officially recognized under the ADA, but really impact their ability to work in certain environments. People who are neurodivergent people who may have a high sensitivity to sound. And we've heard from people say, It's so much better that I was able to work at home where it's quieter. And the idea of going back into an office, into a cubicle setting, into an open spot barrier, or whatever, like tons of noise around, is really hard, and it makes them think maybe I need a different job. That's not necessarily something that's likely to be accommodated under the ADA, so it's a little unclear who's getting those accommodations or not. That's another bit of data that we don't necessarily have that we'll need to look at kind of down the road. I think those are the key things I wanted to tell you. Okay.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Go ahead. So I believe we don't have data for how going back to work might impact gender equity and other equity Yeah. But I'm wondering if we have data from if there were improvements in those areas when we went to Windsor, because we do have five plus years of data. Yep. And I know I have heard anecdotally about people taking promotions that wouldn't have been otherwise able to make. And so I wonder if we saw or have looked at the five plus years where we were remote, if we saw an increase in some of

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: our equity. So, thing that we do have, and I don't know if some of your other witnesses are gonna talk about this, is we have our employee engagement survey that's done every year. And so, I'm I'm having a little trouble pulling up the right document here. I can tell you the three departments with the lowest crowd. You can? I can be. So, you've seen those results. Yeah. Okay. It's one of our

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: favorite things Beth gives us.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: So in one of these, we talked some about, I believe we did talk some about the mutual engagement. Nope. Well, a little bit.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: A little bit. Okay.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Yeah, okay, it's in one of these memos. So, we looked at the most, this doesn't include the most recent survey because of when it was written, but there's been a number since then which really affirms these findings that having the ability to work remotely has had a huge impact on people's sense of work life balance, and it's one of the top things that employees say they value about being able to work the same. Quality of life. Yeah, yeah. Work life balance, quality of life. When you look at, we ask people things like, are you thinking you might leave in the next year? Do you know how likely are you to leave? And there is a correlation. I don't know what the relationship is, but, you know, the folks who are, set a reason for staying as being able to work remotely. That's a it's a pretty high number. It also looks, there's also differences in gender. So, like, just for instance, one of these things I'm seeing here is, when the people who said, have, one of my reasons for staying is because I can work remotely, 27% of men said that, 34% of non binary employees said that, 42% of women said And there, you know, so there's, there are a few other numbers like that in the air, but so that so that's a little something that we know some about state employees. There's a ton of research on employees in general and on what impact across the board, return to office, orders have had on women. And women are the first time in many, many years we're seeing a decrease in the workforce. Yeah. This may have something to do with it. And there's a lot of complicated stuff since COVID, but for a lot of women, it did make their lives much easier. Women with caregiving responsibilities made their lives much easier, made it easier to balance work and home. And that's, you know, this is one of the themes that we're always going to harp on at the Commission on Women is that the caregiving responsibilities in our society are so much more on the shoulders of women, and someday that's going to change and it's all going to be equal, but we're not really anywhere near there yet. And those are, that's caregiving work that is for the most part unpaid, if it's paid as underpaid. And our whole economy structure only works because we have people doing unpaid caregiving work. And so, women who are trying to balance that to be able to have the flexibility, various kinds of flexibility, can really make the difference, and it can help someone stay in a job or stay working full time. Yes. So that's the thing. A lot of women choose to work part time, which has an impact on their immediate income, but then also over the money that they're making over

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the course

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: of their lifetimes, and so that's why you see in retirement, our women have a lot less money than men do. A lot of that is defensive of their work history. So, these choices that they're making at the beginning of their careers because they have to take care of children, feel it later on.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: For a lifetime, really.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Yeah. Exactly. They're lifetime decisions, and it's when I had my first child, I was not at a place to contemplate the lifetime implications of anything I was Like, doing that I I have to keep this person alive. And yeah, it's really significant.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Thank you.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: And just also, I wanted to speak to a little bit about the morale. We have great morale in our office. But in my conversations with other employees, really, it's it's I think that one of the somebody else said this, this sense of this sort of depersonalization of this decision that there are many, many, many parts of state government where people cannot work remotely. It just doesn't work. It never has. And since the pandemic, every part of state government has kind of made their own decisions and their own arrangements about whether they can continue remote or not or how much, and it kinda looks different all across the state. And to take away the ability of these different departments to recognize what works for them and their employees and what doesn't, and make those decisions. I think that's had a pretty big impact on people with SORO, and feeling like they're just a member and not an individual.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks, Charity. I appreciate it.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: Thank

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: you. Sarah McLaren, who is the Secretary of the Agency of Administration. Great, good

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: afternoon. Thank you for having me. I'm here with my colleagues Beth Festigi, the Commissioner of the Department of Human Resources, and Emily Gnaseke, who's the Deputy Commissioner of Buildings and General Services. I first want to appreciate the comments of the state employees that were made earlier, and appreciate that my team and I were here to listen to them and the same from Commissioner Brown. My expectations for today were to be here to testify in S-two 28, which is an act relating to collective bargaining over remote, in person, and hybrid work standards for space employees. So that's what I'm here to talk about. But I think some of the information that I can share with you can maybe level set for where we are right now. My remarks have to be limited today out of respect for the litigation process that is pending before the Vermont Labor Relations Board and the ongoing nature of that case. Oh, that's correct. And I so I think that might be new information for this committee in terms of what I am able to say because of an ongoing legal issue. At the public BLRB hearing, which wrapped up last week, the VSEA and the state agreed that we have already bargained regarding telework. That bargaining took the form of telework policy 11.9, which is publicly available on the Department of Human Resources website and was issued in 2012. In other words, the parties have agreed essentially to what's in the bill right now, understanding that maybe you're talking about more than that, but what's in the bill right now is what is our current practice and what was actually bargained.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So the mural a logistical question about bargaining. Doesn't bargaining usually happen every year, not more than a decade ago? I'm just logistically trying to understand.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's what happens. It'd be hard to do it every year.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: So But they're bargaining.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: They're clipping We're bargaining every year.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: Yes. But we don't we don't bargain every issue Yes. Every single year. Right? And so, like, when we last did the telework policy, both parties agreed, and that's what we've been using since then,

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: from the twelfth to today.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is that right?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you. And this may be a question you can't answer because of your previously stated commentary on the lawsuit, but how was the administration able to move forward with the return to commute policy?

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: It it's underneath that existing telework policy. And so I don't know. And we can but I wanna I have a few more things I wanna say about the VLRB, but I can certainly share. We have a ton of resources, including that policy, which may be helpful for committee members to see because it's, you know, in the policy, it's the parameters around its use and the process are very clear. So So anyway, so the VLRB, we It took in person testimony, multi day testimony, that concluded on February 10, so just recently. And there is additional written briefing information that's gonna be due from both parties, the VSEA and the state on March 4, which is just next Wednesday. At the hearings, the VSEA and the state both presented multiple witnesses, and the board is expected to rule any time after March 4. They the VLRB indicated that they intend to take an expedited approach to reaching a decision, though the timeline is unknown at this point in time, but we do expect that it will be expedited.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: What would that can you explain why an ex what is expedited? Because that can be, like, three months for some people.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: I asked the attorneys the same question, and so I I don't think we know at this point. But we have seen

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Maybe by the end of session or

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: I mean, I I I honestly don't know, and I don't control that decision, so I

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: don't wanna kinda ballpark it. But able to tell us.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: I don't even know if they can. So Judith Dillon is the executive director, and it's a judicial process. Right? So they they're gonna receive the written documentation from the state and the VSEA, and they're gonna have to review all of that and make their determination. And so I don't know what that is. I just you know, it it's hard to be in this seat right now with the legal action, and I I'm not able to respond in the way that I I I normally would because of the legal action.

[Helen Linda (Public Health Workforce Development Coordinator, Vermont Department of Health; VSEA Council member)]: Okay. So that's and I, you know,

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: I don't I don't know when we'll have the decision. I can tell you that we also are hoping for a a quick resolution because I can acknowledge, you know, the the turmoil it's created in many people's lives and the challenge. And so I so I can kind of that's kind of the level setting that I needed to do about the position that we're in right now. But I wanted to point you to some additional resources because I think you have many questions, which are all good questions. I'm just in a position where I can't give you full answers right now because I don't wanna I wanna let the BLRP be able to to make their full determination on their review and not prejudice that in any way. I would say, from my perspective, this process has been one of the most transparent personnel actions the state of Vermont has ever taken. We communicated at least weekly to our employees starting back from the kind of end of summer, beginning of fall on our decision making and the guidance as we were able to communicate it. If you go to the DHR website, and we'll follow-up with those links, you can see, like, each of those communications going back to the August, all the way through the December, as well as all of the guidance that we developed, the frequently asked questions section that is still a living and breathing document that we as we hear questions or concerns, we we answer and roll it out as effectively as possible. We did try to implement it in as transparent and methodical manner as we could. There is, in addition to those written materials, I think the lawsuit was filed perhaps in early November. I did actually provide some testimony at the October joint fiscal committee meeting on this topic that was recorded via YouTube, where I could provide I provided some more information and rationale behind our thinking of why we are doing this and why we believe it's so important, and that we can provide that link as well. You have a lot underplayed, so I'm not sure that's, you know, best use of your time. But I just wanted you to know that at one point in time, there was testimony that was provided in addition to the written materials and guidance. This is you you know me. I've been in here before talking about my experience. I'm a twenty two year state employee. I feel great passion for public service, and I have great respect and admiration for all state employees.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: Yes, in regards. So, Sarah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I assume you were fairly involved in making this decision along with Beth and other people in leadership capacity. I'm just curious what prompted the decision, a drop in employee effectiveness? What measurable aspect of employee performance prompted this decision?

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: So I'm gonna be careful what I say because it really is part of the litigation. So I just have to preface that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So we can watch

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: her YouTube from before, I think, maybe the answer.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: Is that kinda what you're saying? You did provide those answers at a previous We we talked about the rationale behind it, but but I I just have to be very careful. And but I do wanna say when we make decisions about state government, it's about all Vermonters, not just about state employees and the service that we provide to Vermont. Well, then I guess I will reframe my question, which

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: is, do we have a measure every year to measure employee effectiveness other than their morale and other than engagement, other than their engagement? We have a way to measure employee effectiveness. I look to Beth and you.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: I just I'm I'm really hesitant to to I just I don't wanna I don't wanna get ahead of the labor relations work. I I would love the opportunity to come back and talk about this with you at some point. After. But, you know, I no.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It's just curious. I mean, because we have a lot of, yeah, antibiotics. And I guess my last question, do we have a notion of when Judith is gonna be when the VLRB is gonna deliver their distribution?

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: I I think she they did say when the when the hearing wrapped up that they were gonna look to be as expedited as possible. Right. But I don't know I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means. We are mean, people many people are hoping for a quick response.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Sounds like we're not gonna get it. I know that.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. But I I do think it'll be

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: People get I do think it will be as quick as it possibly can. I I really do. They understand the importance of this.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Maybe we could I think the reason I think I'm I asked that question, well, I think senator Clarkson asked that question is if there is a time period in which a decision would be brought that we would want to respond to during the legislative session, that would be valuable information. But perhaps because you're not in a position to answer that question, obviously, maybe we could ask to see if the executive director could give us a timeline of their potential process, what they consider expedited to do least

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm not sure you're gonna

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: give that. It never seems

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: to ask. It never seems

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: to ask.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And then just last thing is telework is in 2012 is vastly different from, obviously, what we have experienced since COVID. And one of the pluses of COVID, one of the silver linings of COVID was that we all learned how to be very effective remotely. Yeah. And so I think that's what's I think that's that's what's challenging, and definitely that piece of bargaining needs to be revisited. So which is why I look I look and support this legislation because that, you know, the nature of remote work has just changed radically. Yeah. And if I may, I

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: think it's important to recognize, and this committee has already done that today, that there are many employees and physicians that cannot be remote ever. Correctional officer, DMV, plow employees Difficulties. Snow plow drivers, BGS custodians. And then those employees, like, through the through the pandemic and today, were in person. I'd say if looking across my career, one of the things I'm most proud about is what happened during the pandemic and how state government really kept it. I mean, there was a big blip, and I felt it because I was at human services trying to navigate those challenges, but so proud of how state government pivoted so quickly. And those employees that were required to be in person and what was very scary at the time did that. I'm so proud of those employees and remain proud of them today. And of all the employees that have been working for the last five years in maybe a hybrid capacity, but one who you know, our standard is not five days a week for those employees that can work remotely. It is three days a week in the office. And so it does reflect a compromise. It's not full five days a week. Right. I appreciate it. So I just think that sometimes gets lost and I get that that doesn't meet everybody's need. Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks, Sarah. Yeah. Beth, you're up. I you want to be.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: I think that Secretary Clark said it all.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. That was Or she

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: didn't say

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: it all because she's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: gonna save some for after the decision.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Mean, she said all that we're we're prepared to say today.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Kelly, do you wanna testify?

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: I don't have any prepared remarks. I'm just here in case there are any questions. Senator Clarkson? Emily, I have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a question for you. What percent of state office buildings are now vacant? Very, very few.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: So really, in terms of vacant offices. Other than the ones that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: are still not inhabitable That's because of the what

[Mariah Ogden (Vermont Department of Health employee)]: we're talking about,

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: the buildings that are uninhabitable because of the flood, otherwise we don't have fully vacant state offices.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Vyhovsky?

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: What was the bidding process for the buildings that are being leased in Waterbury to meet this new demand on space by bringing people back? So, BGS handles leasing of office space for the state. We do not go through a bid process. It is a process that we manage based on agency and department operational need, like where they need to locate, what their space requirements are, and then we typically go out and do a space search in the area to see what's available in the commercial market and then you have to start essentially whether it meets the needs and what the budgetary impact is. So that's the approach we do follow in all the cases included here.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And what is the budgetary impact of leasing this space to meet the needs of this order?

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: So it is the space that we found, which we think is comparable market rate for what we see in the area is $20 a square foot. I don't remember off the top of my head what that amounts to on a

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: budget impact, but that'll go to the tenants operating life.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. I would love to get the sort of yearly or monthly budget, because that is money we would not need to be spending. So,

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: would

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: love to know what that is. If I may, sorry.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: So, I think it's important we think of the space at Pilgrim Park is that we used to have an office building that VDH was up on Cherry Street in Burlington, and that we are in the process of selling that building. And so that's why we vacated, and you

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: heard a little bit of

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: that today. And so those costs are will no longer be incurred at some point in the future. And so coming back into the office, we needed more space, which is why we did lease more space at Pilgrim Park. Those costs were built into the budget adjustment and into the FY '27 budget, and we can share those specific figures with the committee. But I think, essentially, the lease for a full year is about $400,000 wealth funds. That's for the new leases.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So I know I'm way behind the eight ball here. What pro why if why did we make the decision to sell Cherry Street? I mean, what what I don't understand. If we needed office space for people, why did we sell office space that people had bought their homes and made their lives around only to move them to water drinkers? So there,

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: and I'll just preface, I wasn't here in my position when that decision point was made, but there were repair needs in the parking garage, which is subterranean at that location that were very significant. And the decision that was made, I think in collaboration with the legislature was to divest of that building rather than invest in really significant structural upgrades. Wow.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Significant cement, salt, those all work well together.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah, salt, just voted on

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: that. Yeah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: okay. And how many people did the Cherry Street, office accommodate?

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: We have we wanna follow-up with you today. You wanna follow-up?

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: I I do A lot. Yeah. And I do know that the employees that will be, in the space at Pilgrim Park is about 180.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And is that equivalent to the number that were at Cherry Street or is

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: that fewer or more? I believe it is fewer. Hence the shared cubicles? So the shared cubicles, I'm not sure exactly what location or speak, you know, what agency or department is expressing that. I do know that, yeah, with AHS in the Waterbury State Office Complex, that is part of it. The move to Pilgrim Park is starting next week actually, so there will be more space for folks that might be shared.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I mean, people might actually

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: be able to have a space they can put personal things on. Right.

[Emily (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Buildings and General Services)]: And, you know, some agencies and departments, they may be having to share desk space in some situations, and I think that they take an approach based on how frequently someone is in the office where they prioritize dedicated desk space to folks who are there more frequently.

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: And maybe to that point, and for everyone's understanding though, I'm sure you are aware, we have some positions that do a lot

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: of field work, right?

[Sarah Clark (Secretary of Administration, State of Vermont)]: And so that's not necessarily an office job. A field day, this isn't our guidance, a field day is equal to an office day. If you're a forester, forest parks and recreation, you might you might be outside five days a week in

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: the woods. So that acknowledges that. Yes. Their work is the woods. Keeping them healthy.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank goodness. Okay. I guess we have talked to all we're gonna talk today. And that's our final end. So is there anything else for me that people wanna bring up? You said a chair's meeting? I believe it was canceled. Okay. Check your email. I'll

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: just say everyone could come to the public hearing from five to seven tonight, about two year to one one year to two year safety inspections.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, the other one. Okay.

[Carrie Brown (Director, Vermont Commission on Women)]: My invite to all of them.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So, with that in mind, we will adjourn for the