Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: Good afternoon. Welcome back to the Senate Committee on Government Operations meeting of Thursday, 02/19/2026. And up for our consideration now is S-two 55, a bill that we've worked quite a lot on this year. This is an act relating to establishing a pilot law enforcement governance council in Wyndham County. Will note if you have the most recent agenda that vote is put at the top. And unless we run into a huge frosty here, My plan is to, to focus up today. I have also been informed that there may be an amendment coming on this bill, And the way things would proceed normally would be we would vote it out today with one notice tomorrow and up for action on Tuesday. It may come to pass that we will pass over action on it on Tuesday in order to see the amendment because the committee members would wanna see that before we pick up second reading. I just wanna put that out there. It won't necessarily be a major bump in the road, things considered, but it could eventually that way. Senator Vyhovsky? Unless

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I'm looking, maybe not the right version of our agenda, I don't see the Vermont State Police or the Commissioner of Public Safety on our list of witnesses today. We do have.

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: Okay. I so I haven't not done

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: that version of our agenda.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I'm in the same agenda as you are, but I just assumed something had changed.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I just I was gonna I I was going to express my discomfort voting on the bill without hearing from them. Oh, oh, I think they will appreciate it. And

[Speaker 0]: I did post it or blend it on the door. I always try to get the latest version of of it from home.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So with that said I'm usually running late and don't have time to shut the door.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I appreciate that. Thank you. Sure.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Hank, who's up first?

[Speaker 0]: I have you. Are we all set? We're in great shape. Okay. So, Kim is gonna sit in another chair and, just listen to the proceedings. Kim McManus, do you want to go first? Sure. And again, welcome. Do you know everybody on the committee?

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: I do. Wonderful. Thank you. I think we were here a few weeks ago. Saying hello. Yeah. For the record, Kim McManus. I'm with the Department of State Attorneys and Sheriffs. Thank you for having us in on S two fifty five. My testimony is very short, though maybe you have questions for me. Essentially, as we read this, and I should note, this is not a bill that I've circulated to our department. I did not survey our department, primarily because this is a county based initiative. Reading the bill, this appears to have absolutely no impact on our department. It does not involve our state transport, deputy, in any way. The technical reasoning that we did, this appears to be an organization within a county that would be contracting with an independently elected sheriff rather than having multiple contracts. We do not get into any of that from our department's perspective as far as how sheriffs are contracting their law enforcement duties. We do not have any opinion on the idea, but we can really view that it has no impact on our department. This is a new idea, we will of course be watching as it develops and if it's implemented. And if we see any impact, we would come back and let you know.

[Speaker 0]: Any questions for Kim? Many? Well, you were correct in your predictions. That was thirty eight seconds, and I you're off the

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: I promised someone I would say three sentences. I think I did a little more than month. Yeah. I did it fast.

[Speaker 0]: Who wants to be next? I have Jennifer Morrison up next, but

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: I'm representing the state, if that's okay. And state police, I'm doing it all. Good to see you, Matt. Good to see everybody. I have two hats on today. Representing public safety. For the record, Matt Birmingham. I'm the director of the state police. I am representing the public safety and the state police here. So thank you for inviting me in. If if you don't know me, I've been the director for ten years of the state police, and I've been twenty nine years with the state police. So I've been around a a little bit. If if it's alright with the committee, I'm gonna kinda just give a quick, operational assessment of where the state police is right now to give you kind of an idea of where we are. Mhmm. And then I'm just gonna offer some general thoughts. I've been speaking with sheriff Anderson about this bill. I wanted to be very clear that we we of all agencies support regionalized models as as as they impact our bill our operations greatly, and I'll and I'll explain that in a second. But as you all may or may not know, the state police, it's a full time statewide law enforcement agency. We cover about 200 of the 251 towns in Vermont as primary law enforcement. The other ones either have contracts with sheriffs or municipal agents. And that brings us to about half the 90% of the land mass, about half the population falls under the primary jurisdiction of the state police. It kind of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: just It's a of fact. It's a matter of you may have responsibility for 200 camps which is mainly because they've chosen not to have their employees to work. Correct. And with how many officers do you currently have? I'm gonna

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: get a tall answer.

[Jeanette K. White (former Senator, citizen of Windham County)]: Yes. We

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: do provide specialized resources to all the communities in Vermont from the largest to the smallest, including all of our special teams, which include there's 13 of them, but the the big ones, the tactical unit, the the, underwater recovery team, search and rescue team, the bomb squad, and the list goes on and on. So those and the crime scene search team. So those resources are available to the entire state. We have a lot of specialized resources. And additionally, we contract the state police also has contracts with towns for additional patrols on overtime as staffing permits though. So if a town asks for forty hours a week from the state police, we may or may not be able to do that depending on our staffing. So to the staffing, senator, we're currently sitting on three sixteen sworn positions in the state police. So we have two staff sworn, which are the troopers with the badges and the guns and the non sworn, which is all of our civilian staff, we call it. So I'm gonna focus on the sworn staff. We have 38 vacancies of that 316, currently, which is a 12% vacancy rate. It's improved greatly over the last two years, which is good because it was it was not great for a while. It was much higher than that. So I'm I'm happy to say that we are we are turning a corner on on hiring. And specifically to go ahead. Yeah. Sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Listen to that. Yeah. Do you attribute that to?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: A lot of things. I I would say nothing definitive. I would say, like with all sectors of the economy, we took a a big hit, after the pandemic, just finding people to employ. Post George Floyd, post police reform certainly was an impact on, law enforcement around the country. A lot of lot of, young people were not interested in applying. Our applications dropped to 82% in a in a year after 2020. We're slowly rebounding. I think the tide has turned a little and we're seeing more people who are interested in this profession. I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: just would love to tag on at some point. Do you see an increase in the CTE attendance for the law enforcement CTE programs that we have?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: That I do not know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: I don't monitor that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And the other question, I guess, is of your recruits, of the new people, what percent of them have already served or are serving, were serving in a local Vermont?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: It's much less than it used to be. We call those pre certified officers. Already have certification through the Criminal Justice Council. We used to generally do about 15 troopers per class twice a year, so let's call it 30 before the pandemic. We generally get two to three pre certified officers then. We're not seeing that as much anymore. I don't have the exact statistics on it, but the parity in pay has kind of changed that a little bit, meaning that we've all sort of gotten to a good point where, you know, law enforcement is being paid well across the state. That sort of keeps people in place. And some people have different ideas about whether they want to be municipal officers and police in a municipal setting or be a state trooper, which is very different. So focusing just on Westminster, which is the barracks that covers Windham County and this pilot, that barracks currently covers 20 out of 23 towns. There's three that have their own police department generally. I know the sheriff has contracts things, but generally, Rutland, Wilmington, Wilmington and Dover have their own departments, and we also cover the interstate there. Westminster does, about 4,500 calls for service a year. Westminster. In Westminster. Yes. 21 total troopers with a vacancy rate of almost 20%. There are four that are vacant. And so it's a very busy barracks. It's one of our largest land area barracks and one of our largest for troopers as well. And if I didn't mention it, covers the interstate, which is a lot of those calls for service.

[Speaker 0]: So

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: since, 2022, just to give you a little bit more background, in terms of the staffing issues that law enforcement is and so the staffing problem is not just the state police, It's it's all law enforcement in Vermont and and in the country. So since 2022, because of the staffing crisis, the state police has had to work with some communities that have police departments, nine of them to specific, that have asked for supplementary coverage from the state police because they don't have enough staff, to do that. That's the first since I've been here. And and, you know, our response to that was we'll work with you and help you, but we can't we provide the level of service that you're looking for. One of the first ones was Springfield, then Shelburne, Hinesburg, St. Johnsbury, Brandon, Richmond, Northfield, Hardwick, and Brandon have all officially asked and officially received our notice back on supplementing their services because they didn't have enough staff. So that kind of changed the conversation for us and really accelerated this conversation about regionalized police state sharing resources. Because I'm sure as you've heard from the sheriff, you know, there are very limited law enforcement resources in the state, And so we are we all work very well together and we try and help help each other when we can. This put the state police that that the last four years put the state police in a really challenging position trying to cover communities that are used to, you know, twenty four hour police services that that did a response within minutes at sometimes to the state police, which, you know, we're still calling troopers out after 2AM. So the delay could be for for a call in Springfield. It could be an hour. And and so that that was what we set up front to these communities. And and we said we we can only manage life safety calls and emergencies. We cannot handle all the life stuff. You have to deal with that when you have officers on duty. It worked. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. But it really it really opened our eyes to the need to have this conversation. So so switching gears. That's kind of the operational tempo that we're in right now. The commissioner and I, absolutely and unequivocally support regional high policing. There's a question, and I applaud sheriff Anderson for all all that he's done to get this bill off the off the ground as I'm sure you all know, especially those who've been around, this this had been studied since 1957, I think. A long time. A long time. And I know commissioner Sterling, he was here, worked very hard to try and and and move the poll down the field. Got really close, got money, and then COVID happened and everything had changed. And there's a there's a thousand different opinions. I think officially, the Department of Public Safety and State Police don't really have an opinion nor should we be involved in what towns need or want. That's really we're always going to be there to serve the towns that we have. I will be very frank to tell you that we can't absorb any more work. I mean, we're already at a at our maximum ability to manage what we have. We'll certainly help, but we cannot be the the backstop to a lot of these towns. And we've been very clear with them about that. Your service will be life safety only and anything else we just won't be able to get to because we have limited capacity and it can only handle so much. So, you know, from where I sit, I'm just going to offer thoughts because I don't think the states we should be involved in. It will impact us in a positive way when it happens. We will be able to work with whatever regionalized services are stood up and and will give us a breathing room. So for that, I would be grateful. But from our from our statewide perspective, I just do wanna offer a couple of thoughts, and I've already spoken to sheriff Anderson about this, and we diverge a little bit on this. And I'm not saying I have the answers, but there are three there are three things when establishing. I I'm staying out of the the funding piece of this. I'm not gonna touch that. The governance structure of any framework, I think, that creates a regionalized police, whether it's pilot or or whatever the case is, I think there are three fundamental things that need to be considered. First, the law enforcement executive must be able to be held accountable by an elected body and or an appointed body by an elected body. And so I I fundamentally believe that's an important component to policing, and that is that has nothing to do with the sheriffs and their, like, status. I just think from a framework standpoint, I I think you need to be able to hold a person accountable to those services that they're providing. The the framework must also be able to be duplicated around the state without without people in the mix. They have to be able to apply. I I hope that it it going in when the county is successful, but we also need it in Chittenden County, Washington County, and Lonell County, and I every county in the state, and we have to be able to duplicate that. So the frameworks has to apply all over the state. And thirdly, it can't it can't be built and and I'm of looking down the road of ways. I'm not saying a pilot is not a good place to start, but down the road, it can't be built around a person. It can't be built around a single entity or somebody who is elected that could be gone, in four years, because then it could fail. And I have no doubt sheriff Anderson's gonna do a great job with this pilot and make it very successful. But what happens if sheriff Anderson decides he doesn't wanna be sheriff anymore? We can't the towns, I believe, and the state police can't function with that sort of instability and not know exactly what's coming for the next x number of years because we're gonna adjust to whatever is built. And towns are gonna need that that continuity and stability to know what it is they they want and need. And it can't be built around a person because it has to exist without without a person pushing it in the end. I'm not saying that that's necessarily gonna be the case in the beginning, but in the end, it can't be built around me. It can't be built around a sheriff. It has to exist and be duplicated on its own in any towns or or a group of towns that want to do it. And it would survive any election. It would survive a town manager. It would survive a new colonel. It would survive a new sheriff, a new commissioner, public safety, a new governor. So those are my thoughts, and the commissioner shares those thoughts with me. But I also I I don't come with a lot of great ideas either to make to to help get there because it's very complicated,

[Speaker 0]: and certainly, we'll answer any questions that you have. So let me just, before we go to Senator Vyhovsky, thank you for your service. Yes. I understand you are entering a new era, perhaps?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: I perhaps am in August, yes. It's been a great a great run, but after twenty nine years and and eleven as a director, it's it is time for somebody else

[Speaker 0]: to step up. We were a great base. Right. We're expecting a big party.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: That's right. Right. You're all invited. Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: And I do have some questions, I'll just send her emails.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So you had said that commissioner of Sherlyn, which is really only one commissioner ago, had gotten close to a regionalized plan. Yeah. What was that this, or was that something different?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: No. Something totally different.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. I'd be It's really worked on.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I'd be really curious to know more about that plan. So I don't know if you have any information or if you're the wrong person to be asking that.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: I I don't I mean, I I would have to go back and and reread the bill. It was not this bill. It was a very different bill. And but it was it he was able to secure money to get to get a regionalization going because and the sheriff and I have talked about this. The the hardest part about getting this going, which is why, you know, the pilot will definitely work because he has the it's the infrastructure. You know, when you when you're developing a police department, there's a lot of infrastructure that goes into that. And and so that work gets very complicated. It's it's ensuring that you have a a police station and cruisers and uniforms and all that stuff. And then, you know, his effort got derailed when COVID happened, and and it was unfortunate because it's the furthest I think we've ever gotten towards some semblance of something. But I do not have the specifics. Sorry.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. No. No worries. I'm sure that feels like another lifetime ago, I Well, I also appreciate you bringing up the importance of accountability, because I have some pretty significant concerns about that. I assume if the state trooper is decertified, they no longer get to be a state trooper. Correct. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on the accountability in this particular arena, because one of my significant concerns is the inability to respond.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Yeah. I'm not gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna focus on accountability. If I if I am envisioning a a regionalized police force Mhmm. Serves multiple towns, I'm envisioning a chief or some leader of some executive of that police force that that could be terminated if that police force is not doing what it needs to do for those towns by a a council, as in this case, or a police commission that is appointed by the select boards of the town or some elected body absent Right. We'll leave it at that. That's my that's my that's how I envision it because that's the world that I that I'm in is that if I'm not doing my job, the governor fires me. If troopers aren't doing their job, they get fired. And so same same thing with chiefs. So that's kind of I'm envisioning sort of a blend between those two things. The the municipal chief and a regionalized police force.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That makes Rebecca Zulzuri. And then in terms of the sort of scalability, you know, being able to unroll this in all 14 counties, or whatever, however you define the regions, in an instance like we have now where we have very different elected people, some of whom have been decertified, how do you see this being able to be scaled and not just be centered on this particular person?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Yeah. So I I would I'm trying to and the sheriff and I have talked about this. I I think that I think the angle I think there's two things in my mind. There's this pilot that could be very successful and help get us off the ground. I think the angle is that it's that these regionalized forces shouldn't rely on the sheriff's department because the reality is, I think, there may be some and I think let's just get to the interest. What if the sheriff doesn't have interest in doing it? Let let push aside decertification and accountability. I know that's important, but, like, I I look at it as what if what if there are towns in the county and the sheriff just doesn't want the liability of running a regional police force? They don't have to do it. So even if the town want to do it, they don't have to do it. And that sort of that's why when I say it

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: has to be able to

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: be duplicated effectively around the state, it can't be duplicated if if it relies on a single person to implement it or to provide the service. It's not necessarily implemented because I know the towns would would make the decision, but the sheriff's department under this pilot would implement the law enforcement services. If they choose not to do that, then those towns are out of luck. That's what I mean by it has to be able to be duplicated regardless of who's elected, regardless of who's got in charge, regardless of who the state police colonel is. It has to exist. If four towns get together and say, we wanna create a regionalized police force, that framework needs to exist and be able to to establish itself on its own.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And with minus that, sort of this model of, like, we're gonna do this pilot, and I actually have I have no doubt Chair Anderson would do an excellent job with this pilot. I have concerns about some of the other sheriffs doing something similar, which then leads me to we have a lot of regionalized service regionalized services in Vermont that are spotty. They have big gaps in service, and I'm worried that doing something in this model recreates that, another layer of that. Is that a concern that you have?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: I guess I don't understand your question totally. You mean, oh, spotty service? No. I I don't know. I certainly in this pilot, I have no doubt that Sheriff Anderson will do a great job providing services to to people. You know, I don't know what it would look like in other I mean, I don't know what it would look like in other counties, how would it be established. This is why I get back to it can't rely on a person, a single person, because I'll use the interest piece. You know, if you were an elected sheriff, there's nothing that says you have to do anything beyond your your required constitutional requirements or legal requirements. And if they have no interest in the liability of policing a regionalized police force, then they there's nothing that forces them to do it. And then the towns in that in that community in that county are out of luck, and it can't be duplicated. So that's my point is if it can't be duplicated for towns like Richmond and Hinesburg and Hardwick and Northfield and all these towns that have come to us, then it then what what's the point of us doing?

[Speaker 0]: What is that?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: That's your question.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. That's my concern.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Right. Well, it's my concern as well, is why I highlighted it and I and I had a long conversation with the sheriff about it. I I think we have different ideas about what that looks like, but we're both we're both in agreement that there should be a framework that should exist in providing those services. So I don't know exactly what that looks like in terms of I I guess I would look at it as a commission or a council that a town that towns could have representatives from that would be like a police commission. And the slum boards would decide who's on that, and that gives the elected the elected officials direct control over the commission that has direct control of the law enforcement executives. That's sort of I know it sounds really simple. I'm setting it really easy. I know there's a lot more that goes into it, but that's sort of how I'm envisioning the long term success of this.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And then that commission would hire that chief.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Hire the chief. Yeah. Or you have a representative from each select board makes up the commission and they can hire the chief. Yeah. I know. See see. I know.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. And and I appreciate that. One of my primary concerns with this this bill and what I did a bad job articulating and you did a much better job is exactly what you're talking about. So this goes very well in Wyndham County, and Franklin County says, well, I want that too. And sheriff Grismore says, no. Thanks. I'm actually not certified law enforcement. Not and and so then, frankly, Franklin County's just out of luck and and perhaps. Chittenden County, you know, sheriff says, sure. I will do it. And and then we've layered another half work of services that isn't equitable across the state.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Right. And so that was my third point is it it has to be able to stand on its own regardless of the people. It can't be built around people. It has to be built it has to survive beyond

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Beyond one person. I mean, it's all built on people. Right.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Beyond beyond a single person, though, that that could make or break it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, and that's been a concern here. I have your life's highness. So

[Speaker 0]: if I could, I just wanna maybe set the stage a little bit for this. And then I do have a question for the colonel of Birmingham. So it's a five year sunset, first of all. So it'll give the sheriff time enough because I'm guessing that recruitment is gonna have to come in here somewhere. It isn't like the sheriff would have the availability to hire eight new people tomorrow. It it will take time for people to go through the academy, get certified, and then become available. And some of those folks may not be interested in working for this particular model. So I think to, Senator Vyhovsky's point, with a five year plan, we will have in all of the 13 other counties at least time to see how this is working. And it doesn't to me, the the agency that's providing the police services is not that important right now because I think you can address that down the road. If we don't put a framework in place to at least try this, I think we're And let's be honest. If you sat down with a piece of paper and a pen and tried to design a more complicated, useless, and dysfunctional system based on what we have right now, you'd be hard pressed to do that. It's just crazy the way we have it's like we used to say it, I think, in this committee, putting a house up and then adding little additions on all over the place to the point where you can't even recognize where you started.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Like a Vermont farmhouse, you mean?

[Speaker 0]: Well, in some ways. So I don't know whether that allays up any of your fear. I'm strictly looking at it as sort of a skeleton and a framework that would be able to be adopted and duplicated regardless of the agency that's gonna provide that service.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But I don't know that it is because it's relying on the existing sheriff's establishment. So if that existing establishment somewhere else doesn't wanna do it, then that community has to start all over.

[Speaker 0]: No. They'll find somebody that they wanna do and they'll hire them.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And it doesn't answer the concern that the sheriff cannot be fired.

[Speaker 0]: Senator White?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: No. I I think that we should maybe go back to, like, the the language in the bill because I do think it actually doesn't give unlimited or even less accountability to the sheriff. In fact, it gives them more accountability. Because right now, they're just signing contracts with individual communities. There's no larger council of communities that's giving them any sort of information. So I understand you're really hyper focused on this, but I I I just don't think the fears that you're expressing are actually torn out in the language that we see. And I think that's why you may have the same fears as the colonel, but he ultimately is positively receiving the bill. So I'm you

[Shelly Banford (Town Administrator, Vernon)]: know, he's you have this if

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: if you both address, you have the same concerns and he's coming to a different conclusion, I think that that may show that perhaps the language is more sound. But I do think maybe we could it's three zero nine, and I was hoping we were gonna vote on this bill. So I don't know what time we're planning to do that if we

[Speaker 0]: Well, Melissa from the secretary's office took her weekly or daily check-in, and I nodded my head because they wanna put

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it Okay.

[Speaker 0]: So we're still planning to vote today.

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: I am

[Speaker 0]: they know I'm moving this today. Yes.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I understand.

[Speaker 0]: One way or the other, regardless of what the vote well, obviously not regardless if the vote turns out a certain way. It's under who we're going.

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: Yeah. Chair.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Hallberg were sitting here proposing this. Would you be this supportive?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I would be very supportive of Windsor County having access to a regionally done set. I mean, it it's not about the sheriff. I I do think it's not about them. But if Because this person is just the starting person for this. If a new sheriff comes in, they'd also be subject to the same thing just like with the contrast. If Ryan Palmer is here today, I would be very worried for his mental health and stability and wouldn't be interested in moving this pilot forward. However, if a new sheriff in Windsor County came in who I had no familiar male familiarity with, I would be more inclined. So that specific person may be no, but I don't think that's the situation we're being faced with. But if you were to do this

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: for any sheriff, then you are doing this with a specific person.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I wouldn't do it for a sheriff who is not credentialed. And I don't think the council of people who would be set up in this pilot scenario would be either.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: May I suggest That's the here. Yes. Senator Franks. Thank you. I actually think the council is your accountability governance structure. The the whoever is the person chosen to run this pilot is not necessarily the sheriff. I mean, it it could be, but doesn't have to be. The council will elect or choose that person. They whoever is running will be accountable to the council as will the quality of the work that's that's overseen. So I think the council is the credibility and the accountability factor here upon which we have to trust that towns will send an appropriate representative from either the site board or the trustees or whoever's

[Speaker 0]: on the

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: And and I would also argue that I wouldn't want any town to sign a contract with Sheriff Palmer right now, which is that's you you may have a disagreement with the foundational structure of sheriffs, and that's legitimate, but they're the last resource we have available to keep people safe in a lot of these rural communities at this point. And I am more concerned with the risk of people in Wyndham County not having consistent good public safety than I am for the risk that have been out on. So it's weighing that. I don't think it's okay to leave these folks in a position where they have to wait for only life and safety responses from the VSP. That's not acceptable to me

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: Right.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: As a taxpayer. And I certainly think that they should have access to a regional framework

[Speaker 0]: to fund it,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: you know, at this point.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Mister Chittenden, I just respond. I wanna be very clear. The state police from the towns that we are responsible for is not just life safety. I mean, we service those towns. This was a so for example, Springfield, they were they were faced with a tremendous they're one of the first staffs that were faced with a tremendous staffing shortage for their police department. Right. So they needed us from, let's call it midnight till 6AM. We would only go to to provide safety calls in Springfield during that time. Every all the towns we cover primarily, we cover

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: Oh, okay.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Full law enforcement full law enforcement councilman. Now it's different because we we cover huge areas and we have limited staff. So there there are delays in response that you would not have to that you wouldn't see in a municipality. But, generally, most of the people in those towns understand that because it's been that way since 1947. But but the towns we cover, we cover completely and fully.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Just wanna make sure.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I mean, I I think that's good. I'm not sure that the people in Plymouth would say they are covered fully and fairly. I I think that rural towns who are forty five minutes to an hour from a barracks do not feel they're covered fully and fairly. And one of the reasons we are looking at a regional policing model is that we do not have a lot of public safety equity in the state. Everyone thinks that when something goes wrong, somebody will be there right away. Well, is not the case. I think around this table, are very concerned and hold the high value public safety equity. And how we can achieve that better in a very rural state is I think what we're trying to get at.

[Speaker 0]: Let's remember this is called a pilot. Yes. Could use the word experiment, I guess, if you wanted to soften it a

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: little bit. But

[Speaker 0]: all of it, not all of it. A lot of the questions that have been brought up will be answered as we unfold this. Maybe if we call it a pilot, we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: can access some of the pilot money, Josh.

[Speaker 0]: So I had another observation, if you will. You mentioned, colonel, that it would give you some breathing room, I think, the way to Yes. Put Great. I wrote

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it down. I thought it was great.

[Speaker 0]: And I'm wondering whether I think you said there's 21 or 23 officers assigned to Wyndham.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: 21 out of the Westminster Barrack. But we Westminster. But we only

[Speaker 0]: have 17. Okay. So this is kinda one of those what if questions, and maybe you won't have a firm answer right away. But if this, after a couple or three years, appears to be working, would you be able to move some of those folks out and deploy them elsewhere that would actually lessen the pressure elsewhere?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Yeah. I mean, the the quick answer is yes. We are constantly evaluating our resource deployment all all the time between not just our barracks, between our divisions. We have three divisions at the state police. We have our field force division, which is all the uniform troopers, you know, that are assigned at the 10 barracks. We have our krill division, which is the major crime unit, the detectives, the, you know, all the specialized crime units. And then our support services division, is support, the hiring, training, recruiting, internal affairs, all that. We're constantly evaluating our sworn resources across all three divisions and across all 10 field stations. And so as if a regional police force were to be stood up and and the call so part of that evaluation is looking at calls for service. If the calls for service in the Westminster area significantly dropped, we would consider moving with those resources to either another division or another barracks because it's based on call volume, the calls for service, it's based on population, it's based on a lot of different factors, high highways, interstates, crashes, a lot a lot of different things that we manage. But we would do it very slowly, though. This is what I get back to about the the the consistency and the continuity of making sure that that that this doesn't change on on an election or on somebody who doesn't wanna do it because we don't react quickly to staffing movement. We've we're very methodical in how we do it, but, ultimately, we would reassign resources if they were not needed in a certain area. Good to

[Speaker 0]: know. Senator Miyalski?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. I just have a

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: clarifying question. Is your testimony that you support this bill or you support a model of Greene North I support

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a model. Yes. Thank you. Or are you on this bill?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: I there's there's a lot of I there I I'm not I don't I'm not prepared to answer exactly where I am on this bill. I I'm here to talk generally about a bottle. I don't I the commissioner and I have not gotten to the specifics of this bill.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Senator Clarkson. Just as we're looking at your resources, which I appreciate because they are incredibly helpful to in so many different areas, but it just reminds me, you have 316 sworn officers and 38 vacancies. How many are special how many people are in the specialties, the special units, and how many are as sort of officers we're thinking of in Westminster and Battleford?

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Right. So about so the majority of our sworn troopers are in the field force division in uniform. So so the in barracks. Yeah. That probably, give or take, 190 to 200 sworn resources in field force. And then the criminal division is anywhere between sixty five and and and eighty troopers, and then the support services is around 15. So they're they're not equal divisions by any stretch. The field force is the largest because it it's our primary function is to respond to emergencies and calls for service around the state. The special teams you would refer to are ancillary duties. So Right. They're so so they're

[Speaker 0]: not the health and stuff.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Troopers that are assigned. Primary responsibility is a field station or a detective's job or they or doing they're assigned to a specialized investigative unit. And then an ancillary responsibility is they're on a tactical unit or they're on our bomb squad. And so they that is not their primary job though. That is an ancillary duty. So all of our there's only very few limited number of full time special teams positions. Excuse me. The rest of them are ancillary duties.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So with expertise. They and they come

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: They're specially trained, but their day job is to to work in Westminster, you know, answering calls for service, but then they may be on the bomb team, and if there's a bomb call in Burlington, they'd have to leave and drive up to Burlington and and go manage that. Thanks. No. That's helpful.

[Speaker 0]: Any other questions for the colonel? No. We appreciate your time. We really do. Again, thank you for your service. Sorry. I wish you'd find a nice warm island somewhere. I'm retired.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: No. Probably not. Saw I still need to go for it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: What? Because they was Windsor. Are you kidding?

[Speaker 0]: I see that. No. I have two other witnesses. They're both on the screen. Jeremy Evans, who's the police chief in Brattleboro, and also Shelly Banford, who is the town administrator in Vernon. If either of you have time constraints, if you could let us know, and we'll we'll get to you right now.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, and Jeanette's there, Jeanette.

[Speaker 0]: And I see Jeanette as well. Okay. Then I'll just go by what we have on the agenda. Jeremy Evans, you're up next from the, Brattleboro Police Department.

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: Good afternoon. Hi. Thank you for having me on today. I appreciate it. For the record, Jeremy Evans. I'm the assistant police chief in Brattleboro. And since I haven't met any of you, I don't think before,

[Speaker 0]: I

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: have, about thirty years on in policing in Vermont, hold a master's degree in criminal justice and critical incident management, and, started my career at the sheriff's department actually in Wyndham. Did two years there before I moved to Brattleboro. Here today, I think, to speak to you, in support of this bill. I can tell you the the policing structure in Lyndon County, as you well know, is very fragmented, to say the least, I think. And I was really glad to hear several of you talk about equity because one thing that I've learned through my career, is that there is not equity, in policing services throughout our county. There's vast differences for people in the different towns that they're in. And, I see that on a regular basis now, especially as an executive at our department, when I communicate with other communities, seeing the the vast difference of response and capability that they're able to get, especially since we only have a really small, number, I believe, police departments in our in our county right now. So for me, why it matters to me in particular is both as someone who's lived and worked in Vermont for over thirty years. I've lived in towns here that have a police department in Brattleboro. I've lived in towns that don't have police departments. I've seen the the vast differences that you can get in response, if at all sometimes that you can get. And that kind of thing really concerns me. With our, for example, with our rural communities right around Brattleboro, we regularly see calls that can escalate spillover into our community or spillover from our community into others, have delayed emergencies, emergency responses. We have, over the last year, we our police department has had over under a 100 calls that we've responded to in other communities outside of ours, whether that's just packing backing up a a deputy or a trooper on a car stop or responding to a domestic assault in progress or a car crash. And that could be, literally anything from we're just backing up and providing some support to being a primary responder to a call in another community, to providing presentations at schools for, Internet or body safety, all all of those things. And to reiterate to the the primary responder, we do that on a fairly regular basis, being a primary responder to communities outside of ours. So that having a a more stable, regional policing model there would be of great assistance to us. And like we said to the from the just the unpredictable nature of it, having some sort of continuity, would be great. Understanding that it's, like, limited in its time frame and its governance is good. I didn't like like the colonel had mentioned, I didn't spend much time, really evaluating the the structure or how it gets funded. I did speak a little bit with my town manager about the funding part, because I know that there was initial parts where there was some concern over whether all the communities in the county would have to have some sort of responsibility for funding. However, after speaking with, the sheriff and, with our town manager, being comfortable with as long as it doesn't cause more funding issues for Ruttleboro, that I'm fully in support of it. And, that's, that's about it that I had.

[Speaker 0]: Any questions for Perry Evans? Senator White.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you mister Evans and I appreciate you as I think what one of three communities in Wyndham County that have a dedicated police force speaking to us because I think one of the things that was a concern for me was, well, we create this regional framework and there's already existing police departments. How will those overlap? But if I understood you correctly, do you think that this could potentially reduce perhaps your need for mutual aid service in those communities surrounding you if they're if they have a more consistent or stable partner from another police department or another law enforcement force. Is that the general understanding?

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: Yes. They'll be more stable for us and more, I think, more stable and equitable for those communities when they have police responding to them.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Thank you. Senator Clarkson.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you, Jeremy, for testifying. We really appreciate it. How big is your police force in Brattleboro?

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: We're authorized for 30, and we have, 30 sworn, and we have 28 currently.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And you cover your primary responsibility is covering a town city of how many?

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: Yes, ma'am. Just Brattleboro, that's about 12,000 ish residents, along with the various, people that come here during the day, whether to work or visit. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So there there's there is a great equity right there. So you have 30 people for 12,000 people. And we have at the barracks 17 for 23 towns, for 500 towns. I mean, there is a great you know, there you have It's just such a big challenge. But thank you for supporting this effort. I think this is a worthy effort and we appreciate your work and your time.

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Any other questions for the assistant police chief? Think I gave you a promotion when I didn't give them. No? Okay. Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate it.

[Jeremy Evans (Assistant Police Chief, Brattleboro)]: All right. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Shelly Banford, who is the town administrator in Vernon. Hello.

[Shelly Banford (Town Administrator, Vernon)]: Hi. I'm the town administrator in Vernon. We currently contract with Wyndham County for not only law enforcement, but for the animal control pilot program, which has been such an asset to this town and it's been so helpful. And it's made it so affordable for us to be able to offer those services in town and not rely on one person with limited time. We do have only forty hours per week budgeted for law enforcement, which makes it difficult. Calling the state police leaves a lot of gaps. And so I think if we had a regional policing program, I think it would offer a lot of affordable services to not only our community, but we have a neighboring community that I don't believe has any policing at this time. And I think that it would be a huge asset to the region to be able to offer that and to bring more safety and security to our communities. I think that's pretty much all I have to say.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. I think

[Shelly Banford (Town Administrator, Vernon)]: it would be a great program. However, I don't know how we could make this happen. And know there is concern to, be able to facilitate this throughout the state. So, I just, I just I'm here to support it.

[Speaker 0]: And you you haven't received any negative feedback about this in Vernon. Is that No.

[Shelly Banford (Town Administrator, Vernon)]: Okay. Here supports it.

[Speaker 0]: Okay.

[Shelly Banford (Town Administrator, Vernon)]: Another option to be able to fill the gaps and have more security without bankrupting the town.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yes. Not starting your own police force.

[Speaker 0]: Questions for the town? I'm sorry. Rochelle? No? Okay. Thank you very much. You're welcome to stay there and watch the rest of the proceedings.

[Shelly Banford (Town Administrator, Vernon)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: I'm not trying to sell this necessarily, but I'm trying to offer clarity perhaps. This is a voluntary situation. No one is forcing any municipality to join if they don't want to. We've got the two amendments that we haven't necessarily talked about, but hopefully everybody's aware of what those two were. We're going to allow the legislative body and each municipality to make the decision and pull the trigger. And also that we will do that at an annual or special town meeting, inserting in lieu thereof the legislative body, and also that the grand list will not be the procedure of the population. Yes, Senator White.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Mr. Chair, I would move that we Okay. Would

[Speaker 0]: I just had a couple other things.

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: Oh, yeah. Go ahead then.

[Speaker 0]: So it's voluntary. It's a pilot. There's a five year sunset on this. Someone may reach out and say that they're afraid this is a new tax and it will raise property taxes. That is not so. It's a county tax. It's not new. Folks down there are already paying for police services through contracting and also through the town property tax. It's simply, if you wanna look at it, different route for those taxes to be collected and dispersed. So I'm fine with this unless somebody has, in the room any other additional comments. Yes?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: In all fairness, on the money, I think that that will be part of the five year pilot is to see what the real cost of of of the regionalization of of law enforcement, what the how much more equitable it can be and what it actually does cost to do it. I think that that we need to know that before we even begin to think about rolling it out elsewhere, obviously. But I think it's such an efficient use of money. I think that it's a

[Speaker 0]: much more effective way to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to to spend it. And I would just say to the other elephant in the room about this running parallel tracks with our work on the county governance tax task force that I really, I hope we continue that work as well because I would say, I'm hoping that we'll maybe be adding that to something else that's continued to that work. So I just wanted to say that.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. So, no worries.

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: Yeah. I'm in favor of this. I think it's a wonderful pilot to take a look at, and as the chair says, I think you're gonna be able to adjust or change things and bring things back to us where we can tweak it and change it. And I think it's also laying the foundation for a whole bunch of other regionalization type things. And I mentioned it earlier in Tesla, like EMS Yeah. And all that stuff. So I think there's gonna be a lot of people watching this as it moves forward. And I'm

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: in favor

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: of that. There will be changes to this, I would predict, and I'm guessing you may be making recommendations to changes to this at some point in time, and that's what I'm in favor of.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Yes, Josh.

[Josh Hanford (Vermont League of Cities & Towns)]: Josh Hanford from all legal cities accounts. Also, just speak in favor. I understand the concerns about a pilot with just a sheriff, but I think the value in this is, just as you said, senator, we have a lot of regional needs. This is one, policing, and a model needs to be developed that we can deploy for other regional needs. And it doesn't have to be assumed that it'll always live with a sheriff as the model for this, and we need a real practical lesson of whether this Council on Government's concept for regional rural policing is applicable to solve the other regional issues we have. And that's the real value in this and why the league is supportive of it.

[Speaker 0]: Right. Appreciate your testimony too. Senator Janet White, if you I see you're hanging up.

[Jeanette K. White (former Senator, citizen of Windham County)]: If I may?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Certainly. Can we see your whole face?

[Jeanette K. White (former Senator, citizen of Windham County)]: Thank you. Jeanette White from Wyndham County. And just so you know, I'm just a citizen here. I don't have any particular relationship with the sheriff except that I've been working with him on this for a long time. But I would just like to address a couple concern of Senator Vyhovsky and and Colonel Birmingham that they raised about the wisdom of having this model or this regional plan be focused around a particular person who is the sheriff because it in this case, is driven by Sheriff Anderson, and he has been the inspiration behind it. And and he's and the towns are interested in it. But the the governance council will will answer all these questions. That's what a pilot is for is to answer these questions. Who is the best? Should this live? How does this live? How does this become sustainable so that if it can be replicated around the state? Because we might in four years or six years have a different sheriff who decides he doesn't want it or she doesn't want to do it. So the this governance council will answer those questions. And if in fact this, a regional model is what's needed, then they will come up with those answers. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and we go right back to where we are right now as of today, the town's contract. But working with this council can work with people like Chief Evans. And I will say that you gave him a rate. I mean a promotion and he is getting that promotion very soon because unfortunately our chief Hardy is leaving and Jeremy Evans will become the chief. But so he was okay that you called him chief. But so working with people like him and the police chief in Wilmington, where we met, with the select board the other night, people, whoever replaces Matt Birmingham, working with these people who are very smart, the governing council will come up with what could be a really good rep, a model that could be replicated around the state. So I think that we need to remember it is a pilot and that's the purpose of a pilot. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you, Janet. Always good to see you. Yes, senator Clarkson.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I didn't relent to your story during closing statements here, but I I think what is great for particularly for Brian and me is that we began talking about this in 2017 It is. And with Janet and and that it was in fact as we were, I think, at our most ideal, this would be that we would someday have regional public safety, fire, EMS, policing, partly because at that point, when we were looking at it, we were having a crisis in our emergency services, in our EMS, and in our volunteer fire departments, departments, the dirt of new volunteers was really crippling so many

[Speaker 0]: of our volunteer fire departments.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Actually, we were initially thinking about it as regional public safety. And to begin, this is a smaller bite at that piece, and I think this is a good starting point. So for me, who's been working on this for almost ten years with Brian, I'm really really kind of excited to to let this go and let this fly and see how it does.

[Speaker 0]: That was a good closing statement. Well, thank you. Anybody else? Okay. Senator White, think you had a motion to make.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Well, I wanna make sure I do it correctly. Okay. So I would like to move a motion that we we pass out of

[Speaker 0]: this committee s two fifty five with, I believe, two instances of amendment. So what draft It's

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: at 1.18.

[Speaker 0]: 1.3. 1.3. Three. Oh, sorry. 1.1. It doesn't get two ninety one. Yes. Oh, yeah. 1.1. Oh, yeah. 1.1. And that's what I've written down.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Let me double check.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I want to draft with

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: the two amendments,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: really. Yeah. That's So,

[Speaker 0]: do we need to vote on the amendment separately and then the bill containing those amendments? Yes. Amended. So, you could reconstitute your motion.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I would move Just move

[Speaker 0]: S two fifty five as presented in draft 1.1. Okay. You may call the roll, Mr. Clark. All right. Senator Clarkson? Yes. Senator Morley? Yes. Senator Vahovsky? No. Senator White? Yes. Senator Collamore? Yes. Four one zero. And

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: would move that we adopt as amended S-two 55. Excellent.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We passed.

[Speaker 0]: So you can do that in different ways of Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You just do it on a separate column. Just do the same thing on the same page. Can we can do

[Speaker 0]: first is is adopt the amendment. Now we have to do the bill as amended. Okay?

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: And you can So the bill is amended. Senator Clarkson. Yes.

[Colonel Matt Birmingham (Director, Vermont State Police)]: Pick it up later.

[Speaker 0]: Senator Morley. Yes. Senator Vyhovsky? No. Senator White?

[Kim McManus (Department of State’s Attorneys and Sheriffs)]: Yes.

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk)]: Senator Collam? Yes.

[Speaker 0]: Four one zero. And I think it will fall to me to be the reporter, which is good. Unless you have a good I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: think that is perfectly appropriate. Okay.

[Speaker 0]: And I'm sure Tim will provide a second bi section at some point. Probably won't be on the floor, because I believe the secretary's office is closed. So we won't be able to show them what we did until tomorrow, which would make it unnoticed Tuesday, up for action Wednesday. But it makes crossover. It makes all the requirements needed, and we're welcome there. And again, there will probably be an amendment offered at some point. I don't know what that amendment's going to be, but I talked to the person that suggested that they might be amending It was it wasn't senate Oh,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I know my name. I am aware

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: of that. I didn't know they'll support. No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, not my Are you doing this is Frank Altium? No.

[Speaker 0]: This is No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: With an email. Two instances of amendment.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. I'd like to. Would you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: be kind enough to email 1.1? Because I actually I don't have a previous copy of it,

[Speaker 0]: so I'd like to print one. Can

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: print it. Oh, great. Thank you. It's okay.

[Speaker 0]: Okay, committee. Anything else today? I have another committee regarding You have initial retention to get to. Oh, you do? I do. So with that in mind, we will adjourn for the day. We have only a couple of lands tomorrow. Understand we're gonna get some snow.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: But we'll try to get you out of here quickly. And we will see all of you tomorrow. Are you good or straight? Don't know. I was Okay. I'll shut