Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Zoë (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Can I think that's in, Julie, do you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: think? Good afternoon. Welcome in to the Senate Committee on Government Operations meeting, Tuesday, 02/17/2026. Three items up for consideration today.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It's aye.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: The first is s two twenty eight. We have not walked through this bill as yet, but we will today. And we have both the sponsor of the bill, senator Vyhovsky, and also our legislative council person, Sophie Sedenten, to walk us through. So welcome, and let's take a look at it.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: All You're first person who offers the legislative, so then I can Yeah. You have my spiel.

[Zoë (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And this is, I mean, very simple, what this bill does to short bill. Not in, so I'm think everyone has it in front of

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We have it right here.

[Zoë (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But I can I can put it up otherwise? So this is a field that would impact the State Employees Labor Relations Act, covers state employees and and a number of other public sector employees. And in the State Employee Labor Relations Act, there's a list of items that the parties, so the employer and employees, must bargain. And what this bill seeks to do is essentially add in an additional issue that the parties need to negotiate over, and that is listed in number 11 on page three, and that provides that the parties would negotiate over terms and conditions of remote, in person, and hybrid work standards for individuals employed on a permanent or limited status basis by the state of Vermont. So that is what this bill is seeking to do. I will just note for the committee that Vermont does provide very broad issues that parties negotiate over under our state labor relations act because we have seven of them. And so, for example, working conditions is very broad. So almost anything really that's touching folks in the workplace is typically something that needs to be negotiated with between the employer and the and the bargaining unit. If it's mid contract, then you would do what's called impact bargaining. But this is specifically calling out those remote in person and hybrid work policies. And that is a very quick overview of the bill.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So Yes. Senator Tyson. So, Tanya, is your objective your objective is to sort of fix the the the impacts we're at at the moment perspective?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes. That is my my goal. I'm sure people heard from their constituents. I know I've heard from many of my about the concern with the return to office order that came from the executive branch, and I grappled and grappled and grappled with a way to solve it and just explicitly calling it out as a bargaining issue seemed like a possible path forward. You know, I think I I know that the argument is being made in court, right, in front of the Labor Relations Board right now that it already is. And it felt to me that sometimes when we get into these conflicts, it's because we weren't specific enough. And so that is the genesis of this bill, This simple little bill. She was on word.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I continue to hear from constituents. You know, I heard from constituents before December 1 when I finally get back about their concerns, and I continue to hear from them that it has not gone well. Continues. And continues to not go well. And so that is why I'm bringing this forward as a possible solution. And it may not be the only one. It just grappling through my non attorney brain was the one that came to mind. Senator White.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you, counsel Zevetti. It seems like a relatively I agree. Simply formatted bill, but I think the broader concept of return mute is one that we need to discuss. And we talked about having a public hearing at one point That didn't quite come through. So I guess I'm I'm I'm a cosponsor of this bill and I support it. But I also think whether or not we pursue this bill, I would like us to have a conversation about that decision making process and potentially hear from folks. It's kind of like not in the news as heavily, but I'm still similarly hearing from constituents who have had to completely alter their entire schedule to accommodate the changes, which has led to them looking at other options for employment and being more stressed at work. You know, it just has this profound impact on people that I do think we need have not had appropriate voice to in the legislature yet. So whether or not we pursue this bill, I think it would be good to have that conversation at some point. And I would be very supportive of this bill moving forward.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, I must live in a completely different universe because I haven't had one person reach out.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: A long time. You haven't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: had an eight state workers' paycheck. Wow. No. I was probably at 50.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. Largely because they've now had to move from their work they were working from home in our area and now have to drive up, which there's not a lot of easy it's you're an hour, you're an hour on the highway. Yeah. Ways, like, that's just where

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it comes down to.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Cassandra Flexi?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, particularly for those people who were hired from, 2020 on, it's a little different from people for people who were hired before. On the other hand, for people who were hired even before COVID, and we have a lot of them who moved out of state with expertise that has gone with them and is they're still providing it on a full time basis to the to state government. The challenge for me that I've seen that I've voiced at the VSEA dinner the other night, which addressed this issue Oh. Which was very good. I would urge all of us to get on this committee to go to the VSEA dinner. Tanya and I were there, which was good. But it's been ruled out very inconsistently. There are, I know a number of people who have moved out of state who are either of counsel to agencies or who are essential, considered essential to that agency in some manner or another who are being able to continue to work. And that may only be till June, but the point is they're still working and still employed by the state. So it seems very inconsistent at the moment. It would be great to have a policy that is set.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I also think we've had people relocate within the state, people who have been able to move to more affordable areas, because the reality is is Chittenden County, where I am, Washington County are not able to support their hearts this state. And so people have been able to move further out and be more engaged in their more rural community and continue to work. And people been able to motions that they wouldn't have been able to take because their their commute from where they live was too far from central office, but they're able to do the that work remotely. Like, I think I think even for people who were hired before COVID, they may have made changes because of the promise that they took out work remotely that are incompatible with a mandate that they be back. Because I've I've heard from constituents who it's not that it's not just that it has made their life more difficult, has made it impossible. Yeah. Especially,

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I would say for women in particular is the group of people I've heard from who may have had flexible work arrangements for a period of time in the afternoon so they could go pick up their child or could arrange to have an hour break where they pick up their child. But now that they're working from a different location, there's no way for it's not an hour. You know? It's not It's three hours. Exactly. It's three hours and then they're home again. You know? So they're like returning because the daycare usually is centrally located to their home, now their workplace. So now they're navigating, well, do we move the child to this daycare? Or for school, you're not moving your public school that your child can go to. But, yeah, I've heard a lot of, I would say, difficult rearrangements of people's lives, which have made them feel undervalued and made them look for other places of employment. So that's a bummer when we have such a high vacancy rate. So I really do feel, especially since it was primarily and you may not be hearing it in part because I hear from a lot of young women who are new moms. That's just like a group of people who reach out to me in the area because I happen to be usually have gone to high school with them. So it might be that different demographics of people are being impacted differently by this topic as well.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Wonder how many are public or customer facing jobs. Those are jobs that you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: can't work. Yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And I think that would continue to to be the case, which is why it's I thought rather than saying, like, everybody have to be able to work from home, because that doesn't make any sense. Like, your cloud driver can't work from home. Like Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's plumbing issue for

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Exactly. That's why I thought it made more sense to make it a a bargaining issue because then they could figure that out within their unit, and we we've heard from people before on other buildings. The units are attempted to sort of be created in in ways where there's similar issues facing them. And, you know, I I yes. There are absolutely jobs that we cannot do virtually, but there are lots of jobs where what I'm hearing from people is they're forced to drive from Burlington to Waterbury. And they get there, and they they the state has had to buy them noise cancelling headphones because there is so much going on that they and they just sit there with their noise cancelling headphones on and work on their computer.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well And we were tested to that effect at Wednesday night at dinner.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah, I had judicial retention, so I was not able to attend. I have some sympathy, guess. I don't know what the answer is. I'm not sure, again, not to try to read into someone's motives. If we got a public sort of gathering together, it's just a guess on my part. We probably wouldn't hear from those who think it's a great idea to go back to work, but we would hear, the majority of people would echo, maybe we could take their testimony rather than have a public hearing result of Oh, the same sure.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. No, we don't

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm not sure what benefit it would be to convene this huge public hearing and then hear one after another after another sort of thing. I think we could also have the agency of administration secretary come in and outline how they've put this into effect, how many people are doing it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Beth Beth and Sarah, maybe she can combine.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm guessing I think it's they have two days a week now where they can?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Two days I think two days from home, three days

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: In person.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: In person because there's not actually enough space for everyone to be there. They what I've heard from folks is that there's not a lot of flexibility about what days you fill in. It's the days you're not there, someone else is using your space.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And that's hard too because nobody has their own space. So I think the morale is really low. There's a lot of low morale going on as a result of sort of not being valued enough to even have your cubicle that's yours and that you could put family photos around. So I mean, it's plus, with the sale of Cherry Street in Burlington Yeah. They didn't didn't fix this out maybe as police they might because there's now a dirt of space in Waterbury. And we have a lot of space here, but it hasn't yet been cleaned up and fixed since the flood. So

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, and we're spending money on lease space in Water Bury that we did not need to lease when people were still able to work remotely.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So another b one might be VGS. One might it might be a a space. But I think the what I like about this is that it's not dictating what has to be now, but it is saying, let's include this in the margin. That's making

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: sure that's part of this. That's the parties that are affected to figure out what is best for them. Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'd also love to know, based on, I don't know, if 2020 is the threshold for before and after COVID-nineteen, many employees do we have now and how many did we have then? Because part of the problem that we've hired so many more people that we don't have room for those people, it seems like we're continually adding positions in agencies or at least getting requests to do that. So I wonder if that is a function of this or not. Maybe it isn't. I don't know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But Beth would have that info for us.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think we're near 8,000 stay employees, something like that. I was stunned.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But the question is how many left because of COVID? How many many were accused that as retirement? I mean, my guess is there's been a a substantial inflow. Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, I'm trying to be a reasonable fellow. Yeah. So I think we could definitely take this up. We probably don't have time this week, but next week, and have Sarah Clark and Beth Bastigi and who are the Wanda Manoli. Wanda Manoli. What? At VGS because of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the space. Linda's making She's the space queen. I mean, she's not Could you say who's the

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: ALA secretary? You know that. Doctor. Stiege, who's commissioner of Human race Human mercy. Human resources. Yeah. Department of Human Resources. Yep. Wanda Manoli, who was commissioner of buildings and she used to call it Browns. It's it's j j. It's now we call it General M

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I n o l I.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And if we want to hear from the state employees that have been impacted, I'm certain we could get you a list.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Again, I don't want to slant testimony greatly one way or another, but that's fair.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think we've been bad.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: These are people that are impacted, and then we need administration folks to say, okay. Well, here's why we did what we did.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. So we'll put that on for maybe next week. Yep. One of the days. Did anybody else have questions for Zoe?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Many, but not on his behalf.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Or Senator Vyhovsky. I think you pretty well explained why you did. And the rest of it, which is already in law Mhmm.

[Zoë (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I just thought it might be helpful for you to see all the categories.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Know it is. I

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: didn't

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: realize there were already

[Zoë (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: 10. Yes. Yes. That's a lot. And, again, typically, I mean, it's expansive, you know, wages, salaries, benefits, reimbursement practices, minimum hours per week working conditions is that's very forward and is interpreted broadly. So

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And, again, it was it was implemented by the administration. So it recognizing the separation of power, I'm not sure we can take our finger and say, this is what you're gonna do, but we, I think, should at least hear from folks.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Haven't we included most of these? We created the statute. Right. Yeah. So I mean, we've already dictated what has to I mean, in large measure, what has to be negotiated.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you for turning to that. We appreciate your time. And thank you, Senator.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Have Thank you for doing it this way.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. I think this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: is a productive way to do it.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I tried. Like I said, I spent I spent months wrapping around in my head how to do it in a way that was balanced and made sense and gave voice to all of the parties involved, and this is what I came up with. Mean, I not the actual words on the page.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We have some pictures of those.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Well, we're well ahead of schedule. So we don't have the next item off until 02:00, and then another at 02:30. So if you excuse me, have if I'll be fixing lunch. I was gonna say if you have a soup.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Let's have lunch. I apologize,

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: but there reflect no time for lunch. These days are hard.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. So 02:00 is yeah. So we'll adjourn until two