Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Good afternoon, and welcome in to the Senate Committee on Government Operations meeting of Friday, the thirteenth, two thousand twenty six. Hopefully, that may create a problem for anyone. There's a term for that. Being Superstitious. No, there's a term for being afraid of Friday the thirteenth. Don't know. Can't remember what is. It's an

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: actual thing. Oh, oh, it's

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: a Anyway, welcome in, and, we're joined today by a couple folks from, well, least one folk, from the VSEA, And we did take a look at this a couple weeks ago. This is a VSEA request that law enforcement officials who are that's the third time that that appellate doctors flown fairly close to the building.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Those of you watching. Well, listening.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: As you could hear it loudly.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Anyway, if they become law enforcement trainers at the Vermont Police Academy in Pittsburgh, the request is that rather than move them to group F, they be allowed to remain in Group C. Steve Howard is here, he's the Executive Director of the Vermont State Employees Association, and Tim Duggan is back as well from the office of state treasurer. Do you want to take the chair quickly, Steve, just remind us about this? Sure. I think folks are involved, all that sort of stuff. Senator Vyhovsky?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I also would love to hear your sort of feedback, because we heard yesterday that this might fly in the face of federal law because of the forced retirement. That's what I mean. Okay. So I'm also just curious if you have anything to weigh in on.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Yes. So thank you, senator, for that question. For the record, Steve Howard, I'm the executive director of the Vermont State Employees Association, and we represent the employees at the Vermont Police Academy in Pittsburgh. And so this came to us, gave our attention at a meeting that we had at the academy. And at the time, the understanding that we had from the meeting was that the trainers, at the academy were required to be certified law enforcement officers. And we have subsequently learned that that is no longer the case. But we believe that for recruitment purposes, if a member of law enforcement who would be in group C wanted to fill one of those roles, that they would be able to remain in group C just because it would seem that we would want our traders to be experienced law enforcement officers who are training the next generation of law enforcement officers. So that is the need has evolved a bit from one where the issue seemed to be that they couldn't fill the positions because nobody would go from C to F to one where it would be an enhancement or an incentive for anybody who's in C and to stay in C.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. And how many folks would be involved? I believe I I've last got it,

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: and unfortunately, Tom Avalor is not with us today, but I believe it's six positions.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It's it's a very small number.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Yeah. I'm I'm not a I I don't wanna a 100% say it's absolutely six, but I'm pretty sure that that is pretty sure that's what I heard.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And are these folks retirement age or some are and some aren't?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Some are some aren't. But if they were to remain in Group C, they would likely, as a result of being in Group C, to maintain their certification as law enforcement officers, even though a position may not require Rebecca Yulzky.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I guess my concern is this sort of question that was raised around the job not actually being significant law enforcement duties and therefore potentially running a bout for federal law for retirement?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Well, you're in Group C and you're still a certified law enforcement officer, you still have the retirement date. So if you stay in Group C, you maintain your certifications, you're essentially a law enforcement officer that is doing training, that's in a training role. You would still, under this fund, what we're proposing, you would still have them for retirement age. I believe it's fifth I believe it's now 57.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. I understand that you would still have a mandatory retirement age, but because you're not actually typically participating in law enforcement activities, you are not walking a beat. You're not you may be illegal to have a force retiring agent. That's my I understand there is one.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Yeah. I think if you're still a certified law enforcement officer, I understand your question. I I don't know the answer

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to that. But

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: if we I'm not I'm not sure, actually. I don't know anymore of that.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I heard you

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: got me.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Patterson.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So how have other states solved this problem? I don't

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: know. That's a good question.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: I have not explored what other states

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Because this can be unique to us. Law enforcement officers are retired at very young age. Given my age, I think that is very young age.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: And Well, thank you. Yeah. And

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: so and that's true across the country, and they then go on to do either more law enforcement or other things. So I would appreciate you finding out for us what other states do about maintaining because right now, I'm understanding this is a barrier to them moving into a job they would like to do, but they can't really afford to do it if they give up their group c status.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Mhmm. Right. And and I would love to do that, senator. Respectfully, what I would suggest is, if the committee wanted to ask Legg Council or JFO to reach out to the NCSL or to any of those organizations that might have that data, PSCA doesn't have that data, we wouldn't even know where

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: to reach out to.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: But the folks who caught that might It not have a problem

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: might be CSG, because I thought they have the public seat.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: They have the Justice.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. But they might be the best ones to give us the national picture.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Justice Center.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Let's go. Yeah. A good suggestion. I don't know if it's JFO or or or alleged counsel. That kind of stuff here, but one of those

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: group Well,

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: Chris Chris

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Rutland more

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Chris Rutland is already working on the pension issue. So I think if we ask Chris Rutland to find out, that would be great.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, we may get more information from our expertins too. Okay. Well, I guess we'll just have to put it back up and see where it goes. Wonderful. Thank you. Okay, Steve. Thank you. Tim, do you want to join us? Yes, thank you. Good afternoon. Tim Duggan, director of

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: the Vermont Retirement Systems from the Office of the State Treasurer. Thank you

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: for the opportunity to testify today on this subject. I'm ace in a row. Pretty good. I look comfortable.

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: I just sent over a report. Yeah. That's from Beth. Yes. It was well, it's actually from a study committee that the that the legislature put together a few years ago, and that's where those federal law issues are spelled out. And this group was specifically looked at. If you look at

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: page should be on Gasham.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. Well, we might talk to you to Michael. That's right here.

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: Page six of the report, there were what that committee did was looked at all of the existing group c positions and then looked at a few non group c positions where folks thought there may have been cause to include them in group c. And one of those, as you see in the bullets at the top of page six, is Vermont Criminal Justice Council employees. That's really the trainers they were looking at at the time. And the conclusion of that committee, while sensitive to the recruitment and retention issues raised, they believe that there's a couple of things. One, that the trainers did not read the definition, the ADEA definition of law enforcement that could be subject to community retirement age, and that the recruitment and retention issues raised are better addressed, like, sort of in a more holistic way with work, benefits, pay, sort of at the DHR level rather than focusing in on the retirement aspect of it. So this was a committee that folks created a few years ago, and that was their conclusion. That's what I wanted to bring back today. The definition of law enforcement as used under the ADA, the committee came to that definition, it's what's blocked out on page four. An employee who is certified by the Criminal Justice Training Council and whose primary duties are investigation, apprehension, or detention of individuals suspected of convicted. That will also include someone who is sort

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: of promoted at the ranks,

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: right, but by the time you reach senior levels, you're you may not be walking the beat as it is, but as you proceed up the management chain, you can remain in in the maybe subject to a mandatory retirement age. Mhmm. This, I think, felt as a little different when you transitioned over to a trainer. That's sort of different in times. So that's the that's what came. I remember this committee I was staffing at the time I was general counsel for director. So I remember doing this work, it I think it was a consensus decision of the of that committee at the time. I don't know if anything has changed.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Senator Clarkson? So, Tim, thank you for bringing that. I know it was a pleasure that Becca served up, because Becca Ballon. Yep. Not me. Before he went waltzing off to DC. I'm just curious. Committee created this review the legal definition and based on established a working definition to use evaluating existing positions. That we didn't there didn't need to be legislative action on that. Was that already there? I mean, it sounds like they tweaked it a bit.

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: The definition comes from, like, case law.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I mean Right. I mean, did

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: they tweak it to was it ever adopted? The working

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: The working definition was the standard by which the committee evaluated all

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of the existing I appreciate that, but they didn't change it. So note No. As is as in. And it's interesting that they chose just this group because they're also or is there other law enforcement, but I guess they're still considered law enforcement that are with fish and wildlife and DMV and Those are all still considered active law enforcement.

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: And those were all evaluated.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: This section was

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: just the review of the other positions that were not in and that folks have advanced to for consideration for addition.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So your suggestion is that if they do move, that they get comp that in some ways they get compensated in a comparable way that would mean they wouldn't lose some of the financial benefit of losing group C. Is that what I hear you saying?

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: Right. If we if the status quo so if if there is a desire to change the status quo, the committee's recommendation was to not look at the retirement benefit and isolation look at Look at the comp. The totality of the position in the comp and all that, and maybe there's a different way to address those recruitment and recruitment issues. That was the conclusion of the committee. That's what I thought.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Again, just for the committee's benefit, if you want to take a look at the composition of that group, Jill Kerwinski, Becca Ballon, Jane Kitchell, Jeanette White, Mary Hooper, Sarah Copeland Hansis, Suzanne Young, and of course That's a pretty high Yeah. Beth Pierce was a treasurer at the time. So that is the conclusion they reached, and certainly be willing to hear more, but it would appear that they did their work and are suggesting that we may well just leave the situation alone.

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: And at the risk of contradicting the chair, the actual committee is listed on page three. Oh. That that was who this report was submitted to. The the names of those on the committee.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, I made the same mistake. Alright. Listed on page three. Okay. So it does sort of look like that's the committee because you don't usually send it to individuals.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, Jane Kentrell and Beth Pearson both on Yeah. John

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: John Gannon was a pretty still professional group. And Beth Yeah. And Ingrid Jones. Jones should be on this, or at least I'm a singer more often.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Does anyone else have questions for Tim? We are way ahead of schedule. So don't be afraid to ask a question if you have one.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, is this kind of the hour afraid to ask a question? No.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, Vermont State Employees’ Association)]: I

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: do sometimes try to push the agenda to conform to the guidelines on time, but today that's not going be an issue. Okay. Tim, thank you very much. Pleasure. Appreciate you coming back in,

[Tim Duggan (Director, Vermont Retirement Systems, Office of the State Treasurer)]: and have a great weekend. We

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: are gonna be able to take a lengthy break. Peter.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right? I,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: for some reason, thought this might take longer than I did. And one of the witnesses for our next item is and the lady hasn't even gone to the house yet. At 01:30, Chris Delia from the Vermont Bankers Association has been testified. So let me suggest that we wait until 02:00 to reconvene, which gives you plenty of time to Finish lunch. Finish lunch, tax, whatever you feel like you want. And we'll take a look at S-one 196 again, which is an accolade into property tax sales when we come back. Yes, send it away.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, just wanted to say we got an email from the sergeant at arms, and apparently the helicopters are part of a training blunt. Oh, well that's Which makes me feel Yeah,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: that was reassuring.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yep. Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: A little strange.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you. And by the way, while we're still online, the answer to my initial question regarding the day and date, para skeptic atria phobia is the official term for fear of Friday the thirteenth. And both Senator White and Lynn We were on. Jakoboskis. You are hovering.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Teamwork. Can you say it again?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Paresgebidec Acreophobia. Wow.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Thank you for that piece Yeah. Of

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That's like a 20 word word, 20 letter word. Okay. We'll adjourn until 02:00 and be back then.