Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Welcome back to the Senate Committee on Government Operations Committee meeting of Thursday, 02/05/2026. And we're gonna move now to a bill that we have already walked through once, but I wanted to give legal counsel a chance to give us the 30,000 foot view of this bill again. Jen Carvey's with us, and you can certainly join us and Reappoint us with this bill.

[Jennifer Carbee, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Great. Jen Carvey from the Office of Legislative Counsel. This will be very quick. We're looking at S164, an act relating to health benefits for members of the General Assembly, and this bill would make legislators eligible for the same health insurance, the 28 assistance programs and any flexible spending accounts offered to state employees. Makes legislators like other state employees for purposes of health benefits. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Does anyone have questions based on what we could remember from what

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: we walked through the bill? Not to retrieve the actual paper, Matt.

[Jennifer Carbee, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Guess the only other piece, yes, is that the expected contribution would be the same split as for the premium as the employees in the executive branch, which I believe is still eightytwenty, but I'll confirm. Eightytwenty, so 80% is by the employer, 20% is from the employee.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So, I mean, to follow-up on that, does that mean it's additional pay for a legislator? Or would it come out of our pay?

[Jennifer Carbee, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Well, how it actually, how the premiums would get paid, think, is an implementation question because you don't receive paychecks for part of the year. So for full time employees, it comes out of our pay. I think that would be an implementation question for you about how you would wanna do it for the months when you did not receive a paycheck and whether you would want it to come out or whether you'd want it to be built on the current pay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And I think we have witnesses down the line that might help.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I see they're here. He's very excellent.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator White.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Just a question about S164 is the same language as an S-two29. That is my understanding. The health insurance piece is the same in both bills and then

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: there's more in 02/29. Thanks, John Morley. Sure.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And you're welcome to stay.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I will, but I am gonna not stay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We're very happy to have the Commissioner of DHR with us, Department of Human Resources, Beth Stitchy, and is Clark gonna join you at the table? Okay, great.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And with her is Clark Collins, who's the deputy director of benefits and wellness.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: He is. The director of benefits and wellness. Aren't you?

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: I am. Yeah. I'll move up.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: I'm sure if you know.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I'm not sure this weekend. Oh,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: good fun. Yeah.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: We're Windsor County.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Just, again, for the benefit of folks that because you haven't been in yet this year. Senator John Morley from Orleans is not going to be with us for the next week or so, and then we can go through and identify ourselves. So we'll start with senator Vyhovsky.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Senator Tanya Vyhovsky, I represent the Chittenden Central District.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And I'm senator Becca White, and I represent the Windsor County District.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Brian Collamore representing the Rutland District. Alissa is our committee assistant, unfortunately, today only, I guess. Alison Clarkson. Windsor District. Okay. So for the record, if you guys wanna head along, introduce yourselves and bring us up to date.

[Beth Fastiggi, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources]: Good afternoon, I'm Beth Stigie. I'm the Commissioner of the Department of Human Resources.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: And I'm Claire Collamore, I'm the Director of Benefits and Wellness and

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the Lead Management Committee. So I know we're going to get something from Scott Moore a little bit later in the testimony today, which outlines how this might work. I think Senator Clarkson has an interesting question. Do legislators, if the plan goes according to the way it was written, continue to pay? I mean, it's an insurance policy, so I'm sure if you don't keep continuing to pay, you're not gonna keep getting the coverage. That's the kind of way things work in the insurance business. So it would mean that we would continue to have to fund that ourselves, I think. Is that the way you read it as well?

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Correct. Yeah. So there's a couple points I want to bring up about the That bill in question is part of the discussion, my talking points as well. I'll start with the easiest of the three, because essentially I think there's three things that are brought up in the bill, which is the health insurance, EAP, and flex spending. EAP is the easiest. I got in touch with our EAP program. There wouldn't be any increased cost to the state or anything along those lines. So there shouldn't be an issue with that as an implementation. It would just allow you to access that benefit. So that's a relatively easy lift, so

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: to say.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And that's just per member per month. So have 10,000 employees, and then we add legislative employees, and then we add another 200 people to that, that would be that cost. Will be 180 people.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Right, right. And it's roughly $2 and change per member per month.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So EIP for everybody doesn't appreciate all the acronyms.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Sure. It's an employee assistance program. They tend to have a sort of historically, they've been known to handle mental health issues along those lines, but they really do provide just general life assistance. So they can give some basic legal assistance, they can give some, know, with aging family members, they offer general sort of life assistance.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Financial. Financial assistance, correct. And Allstate employees are able to access that? Correct.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Aren't we already able to access that? Well, I know I personally through my work already have the EAP program, but I thought there was at one point we could call EAP if there was something in the legislature, so I don't know. This was a few years ago. If you called and said you're a state employee, they may not hang up on you. I'm a stunned fact. Good employee from certain groups. It's also, it's employees and anyone who lives in their household. Right.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: So it's not just for employees, it's for the whole household.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yep. And it is an excellent program.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It is.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: The other two, for health insurance and flex spending, is a little bit tricky. And the reason is much to what you have already spoken to is that health insurance premiums are the bill references the twentyeighty split, which is currently housed for active employees. It's a 20% is on the responsibility the employee. 80% is paid by the state, the employer at this point. So if you're looking to have that similar split, which is what I think the bill is seeking to do, there's a couple of main questions that come out of it. Currently, as you know, you have the eighteen weeks or roughly eighteen weeks of the pay, and then the rest of the year, there's no paycheck coming through payroll, which means that there's nothing to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's not actually always true.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Not always, but

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If you get per diems, if you serve on a gun Correct. On any one of our committees.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Correct. Yes, there are some exceptions. Right, exactly, exactly. But not consistent, not consistent like every week or every other week paycheck coming through. So where would that 20% come from? Currently, in terms of the way the payroll system is administered, and this is getting pretty nitty gritty, but I think it is important to understand how it works. Essentially, when the session is over, the legislators are of put into basically an unpaid leave. So you're not actually terminated from the payroll system, it just sort of goes on what's called an unpaid leave, meaning that you haven't left employment, you're just not currently being paid. But what that does mean is it does have some ramifications in terms of how the benefit is paid. So right now, anyone that does go on an unpaid leave, they are responsible for 100% of the premium. So you would go from a 20% premium to 100% premium, and it also makes it, instead of pre tax, it makes it post tax. So it's sort of like a collection, meaning that the department would reach out to legislators and they would have to submit a check, essentially, or we do have a credit card payment. But essentially, legislators were responsible for sending in that money outside of the payroll system, But we jump from the 20%

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to the 100%. And would we be billed for that or would it Correct. The system also would bill us for it.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: We wouldn't have to remember.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Correct, correct. Right, so bills would be submitted and if it's not paid in time, consequences and so forth. But generally speaking, that's how that system would work.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And would we pay on a monthly basis or could we take the rest of the whatever fifty two minuteus eighteen weeks and pay one lump, here's your insurance bid?

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: That's an excellent question. I think that would be an implementation question. I don't think, right now if you're on an unpaid leave, it tends to be by paycheck, so it would be every other week. But I think that given the situation and the circumstance, I think we could probably make that on a monthly basis, if that's easier to do.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that would make all fee.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Well, I guess I'm wondering, because the only thing I can think of that someone might go on an unpaid leave for right now would be like a disability or a maternity leave. What are the reasons people go on unpaid leave currently? And is it 100% of the time that if that happens, so someone goes on maternity leave, it's an unpaid leave, they're now responsible for 100% of their insurance premium?

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: So generally speaking, so it would be something so like a maternity leave would be unpaid if they don't have any sick time to use. So if they don't have any sick time or annual leave time, at a certain point if they want to continue on an absence, but they don't have any leave time, then yes, it would be an unpaid leave. There's also like an admin leave, meaning that it's involuntary unpaid leave, that would be another circumstance. But generally speaking, only time you would be on an unpaid leave is if you don't have any annual or sick time to use. So, because if you do have the annual or sick time to use, can use that to get a paycheck, and therefore the paycheck would have the 20 to 80 splitter.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: thanks.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: So if

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: you've used up all your employee's time and you also aren't on an entitlement, right, if you're not on FMLA, right? So if someone's entitled to FMLA, do they still pay the twentyeighty split?

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: They do, right.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, okay.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: So yeah, I'm sorry, if they're entitled to FMLA, they would continue with the twentyeighty. Really, the unpaid leave is usually, I don't want to quite say voluntary, but it's more in a situation in which you are continuing an unpaid leave even though you do not have an entitlement for an unpaid leave. Or

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: any sick time.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Or any sick time or annual leave, correct.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah, I kind of do that with my full time job for part of, you know, what I used

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: to do

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: is for being in the legislature. Right, right.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: One of the, sort of akin to this, but not exactly the same, is flexible spending. So for those that don't necessarily participate in flex spending with other positions or other employment, flex spending allows you to set aside money pre tax to allow you to pay for medical expenses, like no medical expenses and sort of a laundry list of other things that you could use it towards. Generally speaking, how they work is you make an annual election, so let's say $3,000 you're setting aside for the year. We divide that out by 26 paychecks and that's what you contribute over the course of the year. But the real advantage of Flex spending is you can use all 3,000 on day one. So on January 1, you can use the entire 3,000 with the expectation that you basically pay us back over the course of the year. And again, since you're only getting the eighteen weeks of paycheck, there's an additional risk in that you don't have the whole year to pay it back. But why?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Ms. Clarkson. Why are we then including it in this bill? I mean, sounds like it's the most, makes the least sense.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: So this one actually, couple there's of solutions that might work. What I did find out, and this is actually a learning moment for me as well. Every FSA I've ever heard of spreads it out over the course of the year. I got in touch with our flex spending vendor, and you don't have to, meaning you can pay your entire lump sum upfront and or, well, if you make a $3,000 paycheck, but you know what I mean? Like, you whatever your election is, we can shorten that period in which you pay into it. The primary reason to do any kind of flex spending is it lowers your taxable income. It's it's basically a way of paying for medical expenses on a pretax basis. So it allows you to to lower your taxable income.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: As we went through our debate with s one thirty nine, I think that's what it was. No.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: 39. '39. What? S 39.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: S 39. As we went through that debate, I it's just so funny, Becca probably can remember better than I.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I just don't remember flex spending to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: be something something everybody wanted.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. Well, it's it was in the original. It was in s thirty nine.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I know it was in the original, but I just don't remember it being, like, one of the top things to go.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Sure. I think if we were negotiating in a situation like this, I think flex spending was not the key thing that we heard from legislators. I think we heard just basic health insurance. And retirement. But I also think that it sounds like the flex the flex spending is like a employment benefit rather than, I would say, like a

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: A benefit to us.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: No. No. It is a it is a benefit to us.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. So

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: It doesn't cost to my understanding, it's an employee paid benefit. Correct. So it's not like it's it's an opportunity for the employee rather than a thing that you are getting financially versus the health care would be an additional Yeah, can I do that as well? Because that was I, the reason I'm able to make the legislature work is because I don't need health insurance because my husband has health insurance. I would not be able to serve in public office if that were not the case, I were not married, or was not someone's dependent in getting their health insurance. Would be out of would not it's not eligible for me even though I work full time in another job because of taking leave during this time. I'm ineligible for that benefit. And on top of that, I don't make enough money. I make an not good amount of income basically based on those two jobs to really qualify for a lot of the ATA subsidies. So as a single person who has that kind of situation, it can be disqualifying for public service unless you've got someone like your spouse who can cover your health insurance. But that also means that in that situation, if for me with my spouse, I don't I'm not gonna ever take the health insurance here if I've got an option with my spouse because this is not a good financial even though it's the Cadillac of insurance from state employees, it's not necessarily going to be the most cost effective choice. What I have seen with other employers is if when I take my spouse's insurance, I get money in my paycheck for the difference. It's a smaller amount for my understanding than the total value of the health care benefit, but it's a payment to me for electing to not be on your insurance. Is that something that is offered by the state now and would we okay.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: No, is not an offer term.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: We don't do that. Like, that would be something that we would bargain if people want to do something that's achievable.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: It tends to be an employee tactic to, I don't want to say, make people take other insurances. Yeah. But it's along those lines. So it's like a sort of cost savings tool, but it's not something that the state currently does.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Okay, that's

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: very helpful. Or for the, yeah, for

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: folding or different paving, I mean, you have the ones you establish, you bargain for it,

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: and the ones you don't bargain for it. Correct. So

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: a recommendation or at least something to consider, and I know that this is a bigger topic than just the health insurance, but one way to help mitigate this would be to annualize the salary, the legislator salary. If it's an annualized salary, everything I just talked about, essentially those issues go away. Because it would allow, it would give you a paycheck throughout the whole year. So it would just be enrolling and you would get the twentyeighty split and it would just roll through. Maybe it'll take their full time job.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Wouldn't that be nice?

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: I mean, we'd be And

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: actually annualize our work, which

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: means we'd

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: certainly have enough of it to

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: do S-thirty nine again.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: I mean, would be a of a tidy solution, but I know that that's a bigger, it's a bigger ask than just make it annual. But to annualize the pay would mitigate a lot of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: these What's included all that?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Correct. So currently, I'm just, I'm trying to do the math in my head, and it's not gonna work. We just got paid today, as a matter of fact. How old is Today's Thursday. Senator Go up every other week.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: David Smith. I did the math. Yes. Scott Moore joins fiscal and Senator Vyhovsky does have every hand raises. Just to let you know, you make $935 a week, divide that out for the whole year, it's $17,000 for the eighteen weeks. Okay. If you were to do that once a week, you'd get about $325 and then you put two Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That's exactly what I was trying to do. Something like that.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If we annualized it.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: If you were to take that $17,000 and divide it by 26 pay periods?

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Who knows?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sarah Lybiyovsky. Thank you, Scott. Come in Bruce.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes, thank you, Scott. So I just wanted to, in S-thirty nine, the way we dealt with this was not to annualize the pay, it was to create that one fifth of the weekly salary in the off session weeks to both create pay that is coming in, but also to acknowledge that we actually do work when we are not in the building.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes. A lot.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: But I don't

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But it doesn't change the money. I mean, you can divide it however long if you want. It's still

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: a S-thirty '9, it did. So in S-thirty nine, we didn't annualize our current pay over the course of twelve months. What we did is say, while we are working, we get the full salary. And in the off session, every week, we get one fifth of that salary.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I just meant the total amount of money remains the same. It's just divided.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. We would have been adding actually a a a a pay per week in addition to our eighteen weeks. Correct. Okay.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Which actually would compensate us, like, new plea, but help pay for all the constituent work and additional meetings and committee work that we do off session.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: Well, not here to comment on S-thirty nine, but that too would also, basically as long as you receive something during the off session, it would mitigate the issues that I brought up.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: On a regular basis. Correct, on a regular basis. Which is why, you're right. Tanya, thank

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: you for remembering that piece.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Am very familiar and remember the spine details of that bill. I

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: know, that bill just, our need is still so great for that bill. I mean, are losing this year a number of wonderful legislators because they can't continue

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to afford to work here. And they're young people. I mean, are, most of them young people. Very concerning.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: The only other just thought or consideration, I think Scott might be able to talk to this a little bit more, but again, realizing the twentyeighty split, it's very clear for active employees where the 80% comes from. I just think that it's obviously the 80% has to come from That's some of my question, as Scott,

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: where does

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And it come

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: that would obviously be, I think he would probably be able to give you numbers and maybe a better idea of where that comes from, but obviously that's obviously a consideration in this as well.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes, it either comes out of your pay or we get it on top as benefit. Which is something to consider.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Right, and the way we do it on the executive branch and the judiciary is each employee's has, like, the way we calculate the budget, every employee has actually those that that share of the health care employee in the plan is kind of attached to the agent individual employee based on the plan. So that comes out of our budget, what our employees pay for health insurance in DHR, and our budget every year we have certain amount added to it because for the 80% share for our employees at DHR. Right. Any

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: other questions?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, that's Mark, thank you so much. Really Yeah. Appreciate

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: While you're here, if I could just ask, who oversees the volunteer paid leave program? We are going to ask you into some of the economic development. Okay. The two of you, but okay. Thank you. Sure. Great. Email soon.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: John Morley, welcome in. John is the legislative finance manager at Joint Fiscal Office. Good afternoon, committee. I did

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: print some slides, if you'd like a hard copy.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: You know me. I

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: know this under part.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I would love a hard copy. Thank you. No. You don't want a hard copy.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Well, I If you're scared of it. Yeah. If you'd like that. That means plenty for everybody.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I'll leave one on, honey.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. And we'll be able to put one on John's desk. He'll be back.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Posted this earlier. Oh, great. So Senator Hovsky can follow along online if you'd like. So again, I'm Scott Hornet, Director Fiscal Office. As a legislative finance manager, one of my duties is to put together the legislative budget. The budget for the general assembly, not the non grading budget of the state. This is just with that, what I decided to do here was to give you some idea of the numbers, a little bit of art, a little bit of science, Right? I basically treated this as if the legislators were treated the same way that I would be treated if I was building the budget. Yes. Clark, you mentioned if the legislator to became fully responsible for the entire 100% of the premium at some point in time, this doesn't reflect that. This basically says, of the 8020 split, what if we added to the legislative budget as if the state is picking up that 80% from that cost? Just so you have an idea about that. So first thing I would like to point out on page two, they're displaying that going to the office is a nonpartisan legislative office. This is not a recommendation that this is what you do. I'm just wanting to build some numbers so you have an idea of what the framework might look like. Make sure you understand, I'm not recommending this one way or the other. Oh really?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We thought it was like your idea.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: My idea is not a question.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Although it's a good idea.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Briefly, this just goes over again. This would amend the statutes. That way you would be treated as an employee so you'd be able to have access to the plan. There are two plans, one point sensitive than the other. Each plan has three tiers. There's some special tiers, but for the sake of simplicity, just use the three tiers. And this EAP, it is $37.7 is what I bill for every employee. In case you're curious, if I were treating well like regular employees, it would be a cost to my added budget of 6,786 million dollars Per For the year for all 180 of us.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's All 180 of us.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: So it's $37 a first year. Just for the year. For Oh, the I'm say. Not for healthcare. Wow. Wow.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: She was ready to sign up today.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: But if

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: was I should paying abandon Medicare. If

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: I was building a budget, do I get probably the employees? I would check mark 37,780. Wow, that is a rezone program. So for these benefits, these are rates that were provided to us. When I built the FY27 budget for all the employees, we can see the two different plans, the Total Choice Plan, the Select Care, I'm assuming point of service. Total Choice. I don't necessarily know better what I could involve with any plan. I can tell you what I do personally, but different plans have different aspects. The first plan is more expensive. Imagine that offers more in different things, but I would refer to phone a friend next door for specific questions about a different plan.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Total choice implies what it probably means is.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Yeah, these are the titles of the plans. With that said, looking at the three tiers, employee only is a little bit cheaper than employee plus one, and employment plan is less expensive of three across the two different tiers. So now we get into where the science and the math kind of come together. So on the next slide, scenario number one, what if 25% of the legislators enrolled in the plan as if you were, the state was picking up 80% across the whole year, and how did I come up with the distribution rate? Because you'll notice here, know, one one one in the first the top bracket and then sixteen fourteen and twelve. I model this after what the the current legislative staff does. We have about 5% of the staff who pick a plan in the total choice area and the rest of the staff have picked plans in the select care point of service. It's basically 5% in the top group and the bottom group 95 is about forty, thirty, 25 ish. Have to look my numbers against. That's how this numbers came about. Again, this is a little bit of science, little bit of art. So I wanted to be fair to have some sort of realistic physical data points, so I used the staff as the model. I do have a, if you're really bored later and you wanna play, we can put some stuff under the working model and change it all around and see where things can come up. But just to give you an idea. So this is, this first scenario is if 25% of the legislators enrolled, that's 45 people. Some people like Senator White, who'd be on the husband's insurance potentially.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Might be on Medicare. So

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: if we did this and the state picked up the 80%, there wasn't any of this question of potentially you all be stuck in a 100% of the payment after June, the cost to my FY27 budget that I would present would go out by $1,200,000 That's how this kind of works. When we look at the next slide, it's varying over two. Is the top

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of the right Not huge. Mean, it's totally fine. Yeah.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Again, same percentage is used. About of the 90, about 5% would be the top bracket. If you have a 95 or split off in this distribution, and that goes up to about $2,400,000 Yes, a $100.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So Scott, there's no difference in the plan, it's just more people taking it.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Correct.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Plan has the same cost.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: So you double the plan. It doesn't quite double the numbers because the people are changed a little bit. I try to do percentages to make sure the percentages are about the same. And it's entirely possible. I mean, the cheapest way that this plan would be enacted is if no one took, think it wouldn't cost us anything because no one's taking healthcare. But as you can see, when we get to scenario three, if 75% of the legislators took it, the costs go up. And then scenario four is if all 180 legislators enrolled in this distribution, and that might change. It'd be about $5,000,000 Okay. But again, Senator Clarkson mentioned, if people don't run-in the fall and that the body changes and 50 people aren't here, then it's hard to know where we're gonna fall in terms of this distribution. Statistically, I can just use the legislative status. Then for fund scenario five, this is S-thirty nine.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: believe you all had listened in on the last time you testified, there was testimony on this bill, and I believe maybe Senator Vovsky mentioned about $1,700,000 I did print the fiscal note, my predecessor did, if want to see it, you can have it, I have it here. We had done this breakout, thirty fivethirtytwenty five for 90 people. Back here in point twenty three, S-thirty nine was about $1,700,000 Same distribution, higher cost per plan. Now that'd be $2,400,000 Oh, just worse. Possible. So that's just inflation. Senator Vyhovsky?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, absolutely. So I recognize the demographics of the General Assembly are probably a little bit different than the demographics of legislative operations staff. But I wonder, within that legislative operations staff, do 100% of the people take up the insurance? Or is it sort of pretty standard that some people do and some people don't?

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Some people do, some people don't. But of the ones that do, those percentages are the same. So out of the there's not quite 100 legislative staff between IT and HR and JFO, that kind of stuff. Of them, I'd have to go look and see. I would say maybe five or six of them don't take insurance one way or the other. It's not a high percentage, but there are some that don't take insurance.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But it would be safe to assume that we would not wanna utilize the 100% number that that would probably be overshooting the cost. It's unlikely that 100% of the legislators would take the plan, I guess, is sort of.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Which is why I look forward to What's

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the demographic of legislators?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Like I said, I recognize that demographics are very different.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: The demographics, sadly, I think because of what I mentioned earlier and the cost of serving and the lack of benefits, it means that there are many older retired legislators, which is a plus for, of course, wisdom and institutional language. But we also do something about energetic young people who lead brain all sorts of different experiences. So, it's it does mean to go to Tanya's point. My guess is that we were we're looking at 50% or less than it would be take. So,

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I remember we did a survey and asked people. We did. And I think we did get a percentage of those folks who said they would be willing to, I mean we should look back and see what that was because I think to Senator Povsky's point, yes, I actually think you did a good job by using the staff. I think that that's probably what makes most sense when you think about a workforce to compare it to. But we did get some numbers related to generally how people felt about if they would take it.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: I think where we got the the last slide picture.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Okay.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: So there's

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: probably no way to do it, but I'd be just curious to know what the average length of stay among the general assembly is. Is it eight years? Is it twelve? Is it I mean, some folks have been here a long time. Not even thirty or forty years. Some are here too, and they're gone. And then it's not a related question, but it's another question would be if I'm the insurance if I'm the insurer and someone has got a disease or a malady that predates my leaving the employee of the state. I guess that's between you and the insurance company. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, you paid in all the time and then you managed to get something with your last payment, now you're not paying anymore, are you still covered kind of thing? And

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: I don't know.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Maybe there's no way to answer that either. If you're

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: not paying anymore, you're not ever I mean, your plan expires or you Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Pay it, you're off. Even for a preexisting condition?

[Jennifer Carbee, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So there's, Jen Kernby, legislative council. I mean, preexisting conditions, a future insurer cannot refuse to cover your preexisting condition. That's what the ACA did away with pre existing condition exclusions. But you have to be actively covered for insurance to

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Yeah, pay for I got you. Your Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Does anyone else have questions for any of the three or four guests we have in the room? Senator Vyhovsky, you all set? Okay. I hope you're feeling better, and we'll be back soon. What do you think about tomorrow?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I am going to take a COVID test tonight to see if I am testing positive or negative and I'll base it Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Would you mind sitting in the legislative chair tomorrow? Just kidding. Okay. I think that well, unless you have more, Scott. No. Thank you. This is this is a great model to kinda mull over. It gives you some numbers. Yeah. I don't know where I'm gonna fall in this. I have Medicare, but I don't have any supplemental. I had it and I canceled it because I never used it. And it was getting to be about 3 or $4 a year and I thought, geez, I could put that in a bank and at least make some money. So, yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I guess the question we haven't really I mean and forgive me. Are these So the 80%, did we resolve whether we were looking at it as an additional piece of pay or it was coming out of our paychecks? I guess not clear on that. Sorry. Maybe I just wasn't The follow-up

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: that I put together is the state picks up the 80%.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So it is on top of our paychecks.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: You wouldn't get that in your paycheck?

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: No, no, but it's pay your taxes if you pay an additional pay. I don't think so. I think it's coming out of either coming out of your paycheck or you're paying it directly. It is not Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So So that pay isn't on a So it isn't It's

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: not you're not getting added

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: our salary plus that 80. It is coming out of our paycheck.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: When I put together the budget for the entire general assembly, my cost for me and for my salary is x number, but on top of that, there's another 40%.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So that's on top of it is my point. So my point is 80% of isn't coming out of your salary. It isn't it's added to your salary to pay the 80%.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Well, it's it's just separate. It never comes to you. You never get I understand it doesn't come to you, but it doesn't erode the 900 and whatever $30 we earn a week. If your premium The percent doesn't. The 20% does. The

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: 20%, yes, but the

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: 80 If you're

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: if you have a

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: $100 premium, they're paying $80 of it and you're paying $20 and

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: I get

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the The 20%.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: They answer these confusing questions.

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: I think what you're I think what you're of referring to is is is sort of an HR world is called total compensation. Yes. And what total compensation means is it's like salary plus all your benefits that are paid by the employer, so forth and so on. Yes, your total compensation, and you look at it in that sense, yes, it would include that 50% the employer pays for it on your behalf. But in terms of an actual payroll, like paycheck impact, it would just be the 20%.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Is not an advantage that you're taxed on. I get.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And then we are not taxed. The plus of that is that we are not taxed on that admission. Correct.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Correct. So it would be all sleepless.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: This may be a question for everyone in the room, or I just don't know who to direct it to. But to the chair's point, I believe state employees are able to access a supplemental plan to Medicare or retired state employees. And then my, I see people shaking their heads. So then my question that makes it maybe a Scott question is, do we know what the cost of that plan is so that if people were to opt into that sort of supplemental plan, what the cost breakdown would be?

[Clark Collins, Director of Benefits & Wellness, Vermont DHR]: I'll answer first and then Scott can weigh in. Active employees do not have access to supplemental. So active employees, if they are Medicare eligible, they have to choose between either the employer plan or Medicare and they can't have both. And that's per CMS rules. That's not a state employee rule. That's CMS rules. You can't have both. The retiree coverage is only available to those that have you have to have had your insurance when you're at the point of retirement and then you can carry it forward into retirement. And on that retiree coverage, yes, there's a Medicare Supplemental coverage, but you have to be a retiree to access that. So I think in this conversation it does not apply.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, then I guess I don't have a follow-up question for Scott.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, again, I hope you feel TikTok tomorrow when you get up, and I hope your test turns out to be negative, and we'll look forward to seeing you in person as soon as possible.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So, yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks. Thank you. Great testimony, and you answered a lot of questions that we had, and we'll see how things go.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I'm going to go over next

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: week's agenda, but it would be senator White isn't here and senator Morley isn't there. So maybe I'll do that tomorrow when we're all together again.

[John Morley, Legislative Finance Manager, Joint Fiscal Office]: And with

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: that, we