Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Good afternoon, folks, and welcome into the Senate Government Operations Committee meeting of Thursday, 01/22/2026. We're joined for our first issue with Agency of Administration Secretary, Sarah Clark, and it's good to see you, Sarah. I think you know everyone on the committee. We can walk around the room if you don't.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Just Senator Morley. All right, well, these

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: district. Yeah. So everybody else familiar. And we have about a half an hour to just listen to legislative priorities from the administration. So welcome. Great.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm Sarah Clark. I'm the Secretary of Administration. Pleasure to be back with this committee again this year. I think I came last year to talk a little bit more about myself and the agency of administration. It was my first confirmation last year, so that was exciting. Thank you again for confirming me. I've been in the role secretary of administration on either interim or permanent basis for about a year and a half now, and it certainly has flown by because there really is never a dull moment in state government. I think you all can appreciate and experience that yourselves, and that's no different at the Agency of Administration. I am a twenty two almost twenty two year state employee that have served in a variety of roles, primarily financial management, but also some more administrative roles as well. It really is the honor of my career to be secretary of administration. I take tremendous pride in the work of state government and our public servants. I am always encouraged and inspired by the stories I hear of just the day to day functions, let alone some of the life saving functions that our employees do. But I find it very inspirational. I've really built a career energized by public service because I think it does mean something. It means something to me, and I know it means a lot to our roughly 8,000 state employees. So it is an honor to serve as secretary of administration. The agency of administration really provides some of the core functionality of state government that really allows our agencies and departments to offer the services and the programs that they do. I view my job as trying to make sure that the road is smooth for our agencies and departments to proceed. And sometimes that's not always easy, but that I try to bring people together to make it easy and also clear the way, develop clear protocols to ensure that that happens. Also transparency is very important, I think, in my role, not only across state government and our stakeholders, but I think to Vermonters to be able to see what we do in state government, how much things cost, how we do things, to have that lens. I think that's a priority of our agency and also of this administration. Within the agency of administration, as you are aware, we have a few different departments that support the secretary's office in these endeavors. And those include the Department of Finance and Management, which was a big week in finance and management in my world as well because, as you know, we delivered the FY '27 operating budget as well as the capital bill budget adjustment were delivered on Tuesday. I appreciate this committee's flexibility. Originally, I was gonna come in last week, but, you know, even the the brief amount of time that I'll be here, like, sometimes that that time matters because it really is a full out sprint on getting the budget here in a manner for us all to really start the work. We deliver it on Tuesday, but we start the work together to negotiate what that budget's going to be. It's under collection.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Sir oh, Sarah, often, after the budget address, there are copies of the budget and the speech. Happily, Amanda emails us all

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: the speech now, so we don't have

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to pick that up. We just don't do that. But where can I get a copy of the budget printed out? Is it from Erin or from

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: So that is an excellent question. And, actually, I think this year, for probably the first time ever, and some of it was due to timing and because we post all of the budget materials on the financial management website. We did not really print copies. If you recall, there used to be little bound copies. And then we like them. Yeah. And so we do it is all on finance and management website. I'm happy to share that link. I'm also happy to provide some copies because we do. They've all been handed out, but we did have a few copies of in the governor's office here at the state house, but happy, to follow-up with You sent a correspondence with of the committee if you would Send those benefits from that.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Send it to Tony, print that, because it's it's a document that's nice to actually have and hold.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Well, it actually warms my heart to hear you say that because I also like a hard copy of that book, and I have the

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: you know,

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I've been doing this for a long time. I have several of them in my current office because from time to time, you wanna kind of flip back. You can get a quick flavor of what was going on in Vermont just by reading that book. The letter from whoever the governor was at the time, as well as all the highlights that are in the budget. It's a real quick snapshot to understanding. So I will follow-up and make sure you have that as you in your review of the governor's budget. Exactly.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And also we in each one of our committees, we are talking about what what was in the budget, what wasn't. Yeah. Particularly economic development. So I really need it. I mean, we're getting other people to get it, but very helpful also because the speech had so little so few specifics on the actual cash. Yeah. Delegation, that that would be helpful. Yeah. The link,

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: and I'll get Tony to print that. And

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I do you know? Okay. As you all know, we've had starting from the pandemic to now, there was such a significant infusion of federal dollars into Vermont's economy, which we work together to invest those dollars wisely, and I think we really did make strategic investments that have put Vermont in much better standing than before the pandemic. We also experienced significant, I'll call them, revenue surpluses during the last couple of years as well, which led to a very different budget this year. It was much more like before the pandemic. And so our investments are fewer, continue to be strategic, but not the same appropriations, one time appropriations across state government. Commissioner Gresham likes to talk about I think last year, if you look at the budget bill, all the one time appropriations, section b 11 o one, and they start from letter a. And I think last year that might have gone down to a double p,

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: which

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: means we went all the way through the alphabet, and then we're we're doubling down again. This year, I think we're at h and j. So it's just like a it's a a visual depiction of kind of how it's different this year, but still able to make some strategic investments. And we're gonna

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: talk more about that probably in another time. So

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I will follow-up. We also, in the agency of administration, we have the Department of Taxes, which spend the money, you gotta collect the money, and so they are a revenue arm, and so they play very important role, obviously. There's also the Department of Human Resources, who's within my agency, and the management of our workforce, as well as the kind of recruitment for new employees and all that that entails. And we have the Department for Buildings and General Services, which maintain and operate all of our state owned buildings, as well. They are really key role in development of the capital bill and when we're going to contemplate new facilities or improvements to facilities. They are a key part of my management structure. We also have the Department of Libraries, which I think that your your committee also has jurisdiction for them. And so if you haven't met with Kathy Del Neo, the State Librarian, she's just a real dynamo. And I think most people love libraries. Kathy probably loves them most of all, and it's been kind of a privilege to have to have them in my agency at the state librarian. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes, senator Blacks. So given that

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: we haven't I haven't seen budget, and on this particular item, I'm very keen given the federal money has been cut completely. So Mhmm. Yeah. Believe The library? For libraries was cut completely. It was not cut completely. Yeah. So I'm just curious how I hope it's they're well taken care of in the bar budget. Yeah.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I I do think that the libraries have been taken care of in the budget that you that you submitted. And to your point, senator Clarkson, federal funding, when you look at the priorities of the secretary of administration, federal funding is always important. But in this very uncertain environment with the federal administration, it's been even more critical to stay on top of the changes that we're seeing at the federal level and trying to evaluate calmly and assess, like, the rhetoric from reality because it's with this administration, it can be two very different things. And in the case of library funding, there have been, I think, several threats and iterations over the last, let's say, fourteen months about what where their federal funding was gonna land. But as of right now today, it it remains at the levels it was prior to this administration. But there have certainly been threats against it.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Tanya Vyhovsky?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I have point.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I have a question.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I think in addition to sort of what you're saying, the saying one thing and doing another, we've also seen things where it happens and then it happens, like with the SAMHSA cuts. Yes. Yes. You know? So I I do I really appreciate the additional burden for for your team Mhmm. In trying to just figure it all out. Sort of circling back, I know this is connected. Historically, we've left a lot of federal money on the table as a state, and I wonder if I wanted to first acknowledge all the additional work before I ask the next question, and sort of if there is any systematic way that we're evaluating what federal money is available that we may not be taking advantage of, and being able to be in communication with you about what we may need to do legislatively to draw that. Yep. So I don't wanna leave federal dollar on the table.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yeah. No. That's a great point. And I actually wanna hear more about maybe some examples of what you mean about federal dollars that we've left on the table. Because I do think we try to maximize federal dollars to the extent that we're able, and that it aligns with our state's priorities. Right? Because it doesn't always necessarily So that point. Right? And and sometimes, we are challenged by the match that might be needed to to draw down those federal dollars. But really, as we evaluate and put together a budget when there are those situations where federal dollars are available and we need to provide the state match, we really and it aligns with our Vermont priorities. We do try to make the pathway to come up with those state dollars. When you look at transportation fund, as you know, that was one of the big, I'd say, initiatives in this governor's in our budget proposal. And the changes that we're proposing are really to be able to ensure Vermont's ability to fully draw down federal transportation dollars, not only because we don't wanna leave money on the table, but because our infrastructure in Vermont needs it. Yes. And the right? And the structural reforms that we need to do for the transportation fund to ensure our ability to do that. And so the transportation budget this year is a package of options that you may have heard some about. But one of them is this motor vehicle purchase and use tax, which is about $50,000,000 a year, has excuse me. About $50,000,000 a year of those motor vehicle purchase and use funds have gone to the education fund for a period of years. And so we're proposing to start to phase the structure

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of the Calling it back.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Calling it home, if you will. So and that'll be a discussion we have. And I think, you know, to your point, senator Vyhovsky, to ensure our ability to draw down the federal transportation dollars. One of the and I love talking about the budget. So I know it's a little off course, but I love talking about the budget as you can probably tell. Appreciate it. Given your past engagement. One of our, you know, our the biggest portions of our budget is Medicaid. Right? And that's also when you look at our total funding, the largest portion of that is typically Medicaid dollars. And we as you see, our federal funds and our state fund increasing over time, a lot of that is typically attributable to the Medicaid program because that's really where Vermont gets more bang for its buck in terms of the partnership between federal and state government. It's also true right now with the federal administration that the Medicaid program is experiencing some change. And you'll see in the budget that we delivered some resources at the Department of Vermont Health Access, both funding and positions that will allow that department to deal with some of those changes. Most notably, the redeterminations for Medicaid eligibility. Historically, it happened on an annual basis. Federal legislation now requires that to happen twice a year, which takes more people and time.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'm sure it's more.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yeah. Put people to Yeah. Advance. Definitely. Yeah. And so But we're not making a choice to back

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: down some of the Medicaid might be

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: using on the feds. If maybe you're are you referring to the Affordable Care Act subsidies? Or Yes. That's a decision there, obviously. Yeah. That would be very Everyone for our state to be able to make that choice because it's a a federal program. Mhmm. But, you know, we're doing all that we can to support our mothers with these changes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So, Rutland

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: District? I just I appreciate I'm trying to understand a little bit more, and and perhaps Senator White would just walk in and be able to help me as well. So, purchase and use. Yeah. Yes. Private timing. The purchase and use shift. How does that help us draw down more federal fund, and what's the plan to make up

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: that whole fund? So I think the the FY twenty seven budget does propose a $10,000,000 general fund transfer into the education fund to backfill, if you will, the the loss of that revenue into the ed fund. Okay. And then that $10,000,000, and and senator White probably has a lot of information on that. Yeah. Maybe it's soon. Yeah. The canvasses slides.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Have a whole

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: We are able to with that 10,000,000, there are many paving and bridge projects around the state that the agency will be able to put in motion as a result of that. And that would be federally matched? Correct. Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Correct. That's what I was trying to understand. Like, how does us using that money differently bring down what the Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And I think it's $9 to one, something like that.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I that's my understanding in general, but I'd wanna confirm either with senator Vyhovsky or with my colleagues at AOT if there's any variability in that ninety ten match. Yep. Thank you. So but it does it does leverage a lot of federal dollars in any instance.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. We should be doing the entire amount of 33,000,000, but we're not doing that. Well Because it's not that we're getting we're not with purchase needs necessarily, but the the idea we're getting the 10,000,000, we're getting more projects. No. We're just getting more of the ones that were cut. Right. Getting more back. So, yeah, we're getting more back. And towns are getting less as well. Okay. It's not going to help them as Town

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Highway 8 is.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I know. Yeah. No. I don't

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: wanna be able to totally down that role. I was just missing the in that chain that I was missing.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But that's also at the moment. Correct, senator White? I mean, things may change.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yes. Things may change.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Things change here.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Never.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: That's just our negotiation. Yay. That's how it works. All 16 projects that have been added will go to Windsor.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Might change.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Toll booths

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: that we're putting in here.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: So also, in addition to the departments in the agency administration, we have some offices within the secretary's office, some that I think you're very familiar with. The chief performance office, which really tries to empower state government to continuously improve, if you will. And for an office of two people, they are small and very mighty, and they offer a lot of training, consulting, if you will, to various projects in state government that really attempts to help us maximize our efficiency and productivity. There's also the office of racial equity that I think is a really important component of state government that didn't exist, I think, going back maybe five years. It might be a little bit longer than that, but it's a relatively new addition to state government and really is focused on making allowing for the equitable treatment representation and decision making across state government, but also to Vermonters as a whole. And that is an invaluable part of my office and play a role in the decision making that happens in helping us to evaluate the impact of proposals. We have the state recovery office in the secretary's office. Douglas Farnham is the chief recovery officer. I know he's been into this committee many times. And, you know, coming out of the pandemic and the kind of historical infusions of federal dollars that the the revitalization in Vermont and a variety of areas that allowed us to do. Doug, when he was deputy secretary, took on that role. But then with the floods of twenty twenty three and 2024, you know, we felt the need to create the state recovery officer, Douglas Farnam, and then the office that really helps to coordinate, spearhead those efforts. A lot of the right now, as we deal with the 2023 and the 2024 disasters, you know, working with FEMA, our federal partner, and other federal partners on coordinating those efforts. And so Doug leads the charge He stayed there.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Senator Vyhovsky. He should I mean, is

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: that a limited service position, or did is that now a permanent position? It is. So Doug, himself, is an exempt position. Right? That I don't think I mean, it's a discussion, but the intent probably is for it to not be forever. We repurpose an an old exempt position created and we've created it in session law or statute. Have to confirm that his position exists. The employees in Doug's office are limited service positions. They're funded in a variety of ways, but the American Rescue Plan Act, you know, that's huge, more than a billion dollars of funds that they help administer. So that's one of the ways in which they are paid as well. It's like they do a lot of work on FEMA. Coronavirus relief funds going in the way back machine, like that's starting from close to the start of the pandemic. But Doug and his also small but mighty team lead us through some pretty complex federal reporting structures and coordination across state government. Because it's critical. These dollars have timelines, and it's critical that we meet those timelines so that we can retain those dollars.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I know Senator Clarkson has a question. Help us out, because Senator Clarkson and I were trying to remember Sue Zeller. Her It's name to pop.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Sue Zeller.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Zeller. She was the Chief Performance Officer.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Was the Chief Performance Officer, and I worked She created Sue

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: for many years. She did. She was the original. Bob Barnett

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: heard. Interesting.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I did wanna also mention,

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and we'll

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: get to your question

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: in I a was just gonna go right there.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, you were? Oh, I was gonna go with

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that and Bill Bunzell. Oh, okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We have the opportunity yesterday to have Doug Racine in

[Senator Robert Norris]: the power

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: committee to speak about a report as a result of, I think, Act 119, I think that was the right number, having to do with suggestions, recommendations to improve the efficiency of the Agency of Human Services. And he was you are held in very high regard by Doug. He really made a point of mentioning you more than one yet today.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: So Yes. We do go way back as well. Yeah. Almost worked together directly.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Well, that's good thing. To that.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: So oh, did he?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, that's great. Unfortunately Yeah. He said it right here on the record.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: He got you got hired. He got

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator Brooks.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So I just wanted to build on the chief performance officer Yeah. In that office and how you use it because I'm not sure it's used as fully as it's nice. And second, the reason Doug Farnam's job, the chief recovery officer, is I think a long term job is that he only this fall closed out the last Irene account. Yeah. I'm sorry that these things take forever. And having a consistent pair of eyes, not that Doug was doing it since eleventh, but, yeah, having a consistent pair of eyes on that is critically important.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: And I think that that's a conversation that we should definitely have. And I don't have an answer to it yet, because I agree with you, right, going way back to Irene and I think Neil Lovderville and then Sue Minter were the recovery And officer now Doug's. And know, we came out of a pandemic, which was its own kind of disaster. That was a disaster. It was in County. It really was. And and, I don't know, probably the biggest one of our of our lifetime. But, you know, in in that way. Right? But then two half floods in 2023, 2024, and let's not forget 2025 on the same day. Yeah. Nobody. Yes. Exactly. No one's allowed to leave or Yeah. So I think this is probably not going to change going forward, the pace at which we experience these types of disasters and being able to respond and be coordinated and to to have a kind of a playbook, if you will, because that's I wasn't in my role in 2023 when it was really very significant. Right? We look at Downtown Montpelier and the capital complex and the state infrastructure, recognizing impacts were felt throughout Vermont. So I wasn't here for that. I benefited in 2024 when I was interim secretary at the time from having a playbook, if you will, from the year before because we kind of we knew what to do or how to start assessing the damage and start supporting Vermonters. And so that that knowledge can't be lost. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Senator, just wanna I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I my chief performance officer could think I want to I think that office is underused. I think it should be informing to me that office ought to be reporting to the legislature, ought to be part of our our legislative BUDA. How is the state doing? Where are we on all on two very specific measures? The administration should be taking all their measures and data that they collect into account as you build your budget, as you as you build your policy positions. I just think it's a way underused office and could be so much more, particularly as we look at setting up a data trust bank, which is, you know, Campbell Smith and and Savannah and we've all been working on and state workers. But anyway, I just wanna put in a slug for actually you using that office

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: that Sue created much more effectively. So we Kinney is now the chief performance officer, and he actually worked with Sue for a number of years before she retired. And so I you know, we do the best that we can to incorporate that office to our decision making, but can also acknowledge there's always room for improvement. And using data and performance metrics in our decision making is something that we should all strive for. I know I think on the house side, there is a bill. Do you recall the government accountability committee? Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We've talking about it a lot.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yes. So that it it it's kind of been stranded a little bit. And, you know, generally And so I think and Justin continues to kind of push for the importance of that committee, both for the legislative and the executive branch. And so acknowledge what you're saying, and then, you know, I think there's a path for us

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to work together to elevate that work. Senator Vyhovsky.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So have a couple things, because I wasn't actually done talking about the chief recovery officer. And I'm really glad to hear you say that you should acknowledge that this is just gonna keep happening. And that really and the reason I ask about being a limited service position is because I seem to recall Doug stating that it wasn't meant to be Yeah. Sort of permanently there, but I I think it should be. Yeah. And so I'd love to Yeah. To be in conversation about about that as I think it helps us to draw down federal funds. It helps us to do that, to not miss out on things, and just frankly provides better service to Vermonters in in some of the worst times in their life. So I just think there's a lot of value add in addition to financial cost savings, which I guess is also a value add. Yes. I agree. I'm really glad to hear that. But then you brought up government accountability and a committee that we had a long conversation about. And I'd really like to to be a partner with you on that. I was on the summer government accountability group that put forward some stuff with the orphaned bill. So I'd really like to be a partner because I I think that we're at a political point in time where there is record low trust in government. And I think there's a lot we can do. I wanna be clear. This is not me saying that I think that we are all doing terrible. I don't think we all are. Yeah. But I don't think we're doing a very good job of really highlighting that and really being transparent about that. And I think we could do better to to build that public trust, and I'd love to partner with you on that. I think I'm, with the permission of my chair, going to ask for a committee bill to be started to kinda try to work on that. Okay. And and I'd love. Yeah.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: And I will take this back with Justin. Like, again, we we do discuss this and, like, what's the bad path path forward. So we you're ready to talk. You guys are are ready to put whatever your proposals are forward.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, and I'm also happy to meet, sort of, to just have a more informal conversation about what everyone's thoughts are as that

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: think if we get a bill put together by next week, we'll be able to at least introduce it.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I didn't mean to cut you off, sir, if you have other things. It is 02:30, so

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, jeez.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh. It goes bad. Time flies.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I could I am you know, I'm I'm always available to come back if you wanna hear more about, you know, what what our priorities are and what we're working on in the agency. What are your asks for us?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh. I mean, we haven't heard one ask for the legislature there. Know the administration likes to think they can always I go it alone, but I thought you do need us occasionally.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Well, maybe, you know, the I was here two years ago, really, talking about there was a government accountability component of it with Justin, but also grants management. Yeah. And maybe it's not necessarily an ask, but I'll take the opportunity to let you know how we reflected upon those legislative conversations that happened both in this committee and in house go ops, you know, led by a lot of community providers who are recipients of state grants or pass through grant from the federal government. And there was a lot of, I think, honest feedback to the process and some of the challenges that those organizations experienced. And so we convened over the summer, not through legislative direction, but from conversations and understanding, like, we needed to be proactive in responding to some of the issues that that folks were raising from outside of state government. So Nick Kramer, who is my chief operations officer, he convened a group at my request that included both internal state government stakeholders, so think branch managers, auditors, and nonprofit providers. He can convene a series of meetings to walk through some of the challenges that both sides faced to come up with a series of recommendations for how we can fund our processes in bulletin five, which is our grants management policy. And so we're planning to roll some of that out, and it might be something, if you have time, you might be interested in hearing about the results of that work really spurred on by legislative discussion. Senator Orleans.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think you've done a pretty good job this year. I think the future years are going to be extremely difficult because if you start losing the global commitment waiver

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes. And then you have the provider tax being cut by the federal government over time Yep.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: As the general fund.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yep.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: I I think it's gonna be really difficult moving forward. Do you agree?

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I do agree. We're gonna have significantly more pressures going forward. And, you know, we saw that it it it got, I think, buried a little bit in the media headlines coming out of last week's emergency board where it was kinda like things are right on track, which when you're looking at the billions and billions of dollars, it is right on track. But the general fund did experience a downgrade in revenue in both '26 and '27, roughly 8,000,000 in each year Yep. Which we accommodated for in the budget that we delivered. But the one of the primary drivers of that downgrade was the provider tax and the changes at the federal level that's, you know, in some ways good because it's reducing the tax burden for health care providers, it reduces the revenue into the general fund for the state. And so we will, I think, continue to face those. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think you're it's gonna

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: be Exactly. You're gonna someone's gonna have

[Senator Robert Norris]: to make a decision between services and costs. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. You've got some everyone's not just

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yeah. Everyone. Everyone, we will collectively have to face, I think, what'll be a harder reality. More like the budgets, you know, with within the governor's budget speech, you know, referenced some prior challenging times. And, you know, really, I was here in 2009 when it was crashing, when our revenues I think they had to convene Me too. Because of the crash.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: With over the very modest pay. Yeah. Legislative culture. Remember that?

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: State employees did too. Wow. Great. Yes.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. You know? And So the other element in that

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's why we use

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: those funds. And those Was

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: your corporate tax. Mhmm. And I think it speaks to the level of confidence that businesses have. What normally happens from what I understand is they can have whatever tax they pay sort of paid forward and just keep things moving. And this was one of those quarters where it may be a month where they grabbed some of that Yeah. Back. And that Impact. Yeah. And so I don't know how deeply that affects the the confidence of of of vigorous people, but it struck me that Yeah. That was an unusual thing to have had. So we're hoping that income tax and sales and use tax and Yeah. All of that continues to grow.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: We'll be closely watching. I know you will too. But even as we move to the end of the year, we're not

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: we're not all the bullets yet. Oh, yeah. We'll just be done this. Oh, by the July. The fiscal year. Yeah.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: For me? Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Didn't think I'm out. I dropped my mouth. No.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I didn't. I didn't. Well, welcome back, Shirley.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It may be for tax, and by all means, feel free to to tell me if it is by the past then. But the the federal tax cuts, are we tracking and I I mean, just Yeah. Across Vermonters, are we tracking what we expect that to be? Because I think, realistically, we're talking a lot about cost and we're talking a lot about services, but we also could capture that revenue to reinvest in some of these holes that are being created by the federal by the whole system. So I'm just wondering if you have a sense of

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: that. So I do wanna have the tax department follow-up with you, but I will say they work very closely actually with a great team at the joint fiscal office to kinda come to consensus on what those federal tax changes mean for Vermont. Mhmm. And so they can provide you with a more full picture of both the tax there's the tax cuts, but so there's some wins and losses from a revenue perspective. Right? And but, yeah, I'm actually meeting with them shortly

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Awesome. To relay that question. Perfect. Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks, Sarah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Thanks, all.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Many of you people need to have a quick break, or shall we just move along? Don't you? Don't you? Did you? Let's move along. I see that Sophie Sadat is had come in, and I don't know whether I had you up first. Let me just check the agenda. Actually, yes, I did. Well, Senator Vyhovsky's bill is, the next one we're gonna take up, S89, which was actually introduced last year. This is an act relating to expanding survivor benefits. If you want to lead off, even from your chair there, can, and then we'll have Sophie walk through the bill. Perfect. Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I am more than happy to do that. So I actually think we briefly visited this bill last year. I'm a little afraid to say this, but I'm going to anyways. It's a fairly

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: simple little bill.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And the proposal is that it ex extends survivor benefits to our state law enforcement officers, corrections employees, family service division employees, employees of the state proper rated therapeutic community of students, or leading patient psychiatric hospitals who die in the line of duty or from an occupational related illness.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: As

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: people may know or may not know, the last state employee that actually died on the job was a family services division, family services worker, Laura Sobel. And currently these debt benefits are go to a pretty narrow scope of people and they've been proposed in a couple of other spaces to be expanded. But I think it's really important that as we talk about expanding them, we talk about expanding them to anyone who works in a dangerous space where they are at risk of losing their life because of the work that they do. Senator White may remember a rather heated exchange between the two of us to in the previous biennium when the bill came forward simply to expand this to sheriffs. Oh, yeah. Which, to be clear, my my issue was not that it be expanded to sheriffs. It's that we often forget about the women's, the highly women populated fields that also work in dangerous fields, nurses in our therapeutic hospital and family service divisions workers. So that's the genesis of this bill. I don't imagine, one, we can't predict how frequently it's gonna going to apply, so we can't really get an exact amount of what's it gonna cost because the hope is that nobody ever dies in the line of duty, but the reality is is that sometimes they do. So that is the genesis of this bill, what it can do, who it applies to. I also think it's important to note that law enforcement and possibly some other emergency services, but I'm gonna let Sophie make sure that we're up to date on that, do have access to a federal death benefit that none of these other workers would. So it is an additional reason for me why we're gonna do it for people who already have access to a federal benefit. We should definitely do it for the people who are in dangerous positions that don't.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Any questions for Senator Vyhovsky? Okay, Sophie welcome, and if you could take us through the bill.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, so Sophie Sedaty for the Office of Legislative Council. Do you want me to put it up on the screen, or you have it

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: in I have it on my, well, front of I guess, for some members of the committee, it needs to be put it up on the screen. Oh, but I don't know if senator Clarkson has

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Does senator Clarkson want me to print it? Well,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it's Morley and Clarkson here.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Sure. I thought you were.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And I forgot to bring my computer. Yeah. Mine's the other Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Sounds like printed copy. So Maybe. I just

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: need to enter the MathPyjob. Is this too I

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: may have to fill in

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a file from last year. Oh, you may? It's s

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's S89.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: 89. Although it's printing for

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: you right now. Oh, thank you. You're good. Any.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Was it sheriffs or was

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it DPW? It was sheriffs.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It was sheriffs. Yeah. I don't I I do support DPW too, but this is the employees. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Because that's municipal. That's right. To be clear, I support. 96. I think I remember you going for it.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Thank you.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Absolutely. Sandra Clarkson.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you. Jessica's South Hero and replace Thank you, my dear.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I remember this. Because Jessica's

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Law in New Hampshire is taking snow off your vehicle. Right. That's interesting. Which I was surprised at the title.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Correct. Yes. So, S89, we did do a walkthrough of this February 27, and there was testimony on it as well. To that point, there was mention of maybe removing the title of Jessica's Law. That was something that's in our house bill. So it did come over that way. So essentially, the bill proposes to extend survivor benefits that are currently available to survivors of firefighters, emergency medical personnel, and volunteer personnel held in the line of duty, or who pass away within seventy two hours from the last date of service in the line of duty, to law enforcement officers, facility employees of the Department of Corrections, and Department of Corrections employees who provide direct security and treatment services to offenders under supervision in the community, classified employees of the Family Services Division of the Department for Children and Families, and classified employees of the state operated therapeutic community residences or inpatient psychiatric hospital units. So currently, the benefit is $80,000 That was increased a couple of years ago from 50,000. And then, you know, going through it, this is adding in, so on page two, section 3,171, the definitions. Again, it should add in a definition of law enforcement officers, and then the groups I just went through, departments of corrections, family services division, and state operated therapeutic community residences. And then it's at line 14. It goes through the definitions of line of duty and what that means with respect to each of the the groups that are going to be covered by this. Turning on to page three, it continues with line of duty. And then at the bottom of the page, it it turns to me. So the way this operates is that if someone that's covered by this law dies in the line of duty, an application is made to the Emergency Personnel Survivors Benefit Review Board, and that's staffed out of the Treasury, the treasurer's office. And again, there was a long gap, think it was like six years, where they didn't meet at all. And then unfortunately, they had to meet several times in the last couple of years due to a firefighter death, and I

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: think that was one. Yeah.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It meets only sort of on an as needed basis. And originally, there was funding that went into a fund. It's not a sort of recurring you know, money doesn't automatically go into it. But then last year, was testimony that the fund was going to run out of money given the number of applications that were out there, and there was money that was put into the board. So, anyway, just that was just, by the way, a little bit of background on the board itself. So turning to page four, there's an addition in subsection d lines nine and ten, and that provides that the treasurer shall have up to one year from the date of receiving a claim to disperse the funds, and that was really just to take into account the fact that there may need to be some time to actually get the funds into the fund.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sorry, are you asking for something?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We should probably bring the treasurer in to talk about this, and it may be a better question for the treasurer, but it sounds like you do have a little bit of that background information about it. And my understanding was the fund only ever kept a fairly mod like, the enough to pay out kind of,

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: like, one claim? I think it my understanding this may be not a definite we definitely expect results come in. But my understanding is that originally it started in sort of a lump sum, and then gradually that's been decreased Mhmm. Over time.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Because I when I remember the treasurer testifying that that they're, like they sort of plan on having to ask us if they need to expend. It's not like they had $4,000,000,000 that they just were like, Oh, we ran out. It's a fairly modest amount that they plan on having to come to us and say, Hey, we need to make this payout, which is why this line isn't there. Yeah.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think that the time they knew that they that given the number of applications they had pending and how much money was in the fund, they knew that they were going to write it out.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. But he should have a February course. Sorry. Where is the money identified It's

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: just page four, lines nine and ten. It's not specific.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. Doesn't have whole statute in it. Got it. So are we also considering raising the money up from 80,000?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Not at this bill, but I think

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: we could Okay. I remember discussion of that, I thought, last year also. It

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: was raised, as I understand it, not this biennium, but the It previous

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: was 50,000

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: up to 80,000. Okay. And I did want to just add, there is a federal benefit through the Department of Justice that's called the Public Safety Offices Benefits. And right now, it's at 400 and I've got the notes in the next for the next the next bill, but it's, like, $461,000. And that's also a lump sum payment, and that covers death in the line of duty. It also covers if you're permanently disabled in the line of duty, and that does extend to corrections officers already. It has a pretty extensive, like FEMA workers, has a pretty extensive list of folks that it covers. Would

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: you be able to get me the list of people that it covers?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes. Yeah. Anticipating sort of that same question. First of all, where does the 80,000 live? Is it in an account that's interest bearing, or is it just

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It's

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: In other words, why don't we take that 80 and invest it if we're not gonna spend it kind of thing? Right. It seems puzzling.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I mean And that's

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: a treasure interest bearing savings account. Like, doesn't necessarily have to be on the market.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sophie, I don't mean to put you on the spot. You may not have an answer to that. The treasurer's office office office.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't I don't have a direct answer for it, but it's in a special fund. And the fund shall comprise appropriations made by the general assembly, contributions or donations from any other sources. All balances in the fund at the end of the fiscal year should be carried forward, and interest earned remains in the fund.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. And my second question is, when Senator Vyhovsky kind of teed this up, it's impossible to predict when someone will lose their life in the line of duty. But do you have any sense, either of you, how many more people this adds to the pool from what is currently in existence? How many other employees are covered now that would not be if this didn't pass? Do know what I'm trying

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: to ask? I do know what you're trying to ask, and I don't. But I think that the stand employees union might be able to answer that for their workers. I don't know that they'd be able to answer it for law enforcement broadly. Cause as this is written, it would only apply to the state employees who are law enforcement, it would apply to law enforcement broadly. So I wonder if

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Well, I think we're gonna have Yeah. T. Power testify.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And I don't know how many law enforcement officers there are.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's right. It's not a revolving fund. It just gets drawn down. They need to replace it every once in while. I believe

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: it was, like, two or three years ago.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: About Twenty three or twenty four years. I think only did that with Janette.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Do you know if there was a a mirror bill in the house and whether it

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: There is a bill in the house. It is not the same as this bill.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, okay.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There is there is a bill, there's now two more bills in the house, so it's a popular subject. There was a bill last year, age 57, that was just law enforcement officers, and then when it was in general and housing, it added in correctional offices. It passed out of that committee. It went to house appropriations, and my understanding is it's on the wall in house appropriations.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay. But that, this bill, as I said, is broader and sort of tries to get

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: out all the dangerous jobs, especially those that don't get

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: a federal benefit, and frankly are largely predominantly, like, sound like women. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Which was not a priority factor, it was just a factor in my frustration with the police only, Bill, is that we're overlooking the dangerous jobs that women do. Understood. Anyone else have questions for either Senator or Counsel?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. Okay. Thank you very much, Sophie. We appreciate your time. Are you sticking around for

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: the I next one,

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: am, but I don't if you wanted to hear from anyone else before.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, I think we have Steve on the list, won't we? Yes. So welcome in to Steve Howard. Thank you. You know everybody well, you obviously know. Yeah. Most everybody on the committee. I don't know who this year. My son We haven't been. Yeah. I said

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: this is I'm here.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So we're gonna start out. Okay. Welcome.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Thank you, mister chairman. Thanks for the committee. I'll start by saying it's always wonderful be back in my favorite committee

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: with my family

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: and senators, and all good things starting up.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you for your time.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: I appreciate the opportunity to testify on this bill, which is among our members' highest legislative priorities this year. S

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: 89? Yes.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Yep. We are enthusiastic about the the bringing equity to what is now a statute that provides this benefit to firefighters, both professional and volunteer in Vermont. And we support making sure that our members who I think people forget when they think about state employees how dangerous the work that state employees do so often really is. It's our law enforcement, family service workers, our mental health folks. If you look at the workers' comp rates in the in the various agencies, you'll see among the highest workers' comp claims in in those professions. And and I think it just goes to show that these are very trying, difficult, traumatic positions. So we we would we urge the legislation to adopt the adopted bill that senator Vyhovsky introduced. We think it's not a huge fish fiscal impact, thankfully, that we haven't had a ton of folks in these in these classifications die in the line of duty. I will say it is an interesting thing that I think people sometimes forget. The c o one position is the most diverse classification in state government. And and some people don't think of often know that, but if you look at the actual statistics, that's true. But in this case, it's it's it's important that we we believe it's important that Vermont treat firefighters who've had this benefit, both the federal and the state benefit for quite some time, that there'd be parity inequity for law enforcement, family service workers, for mental health workers, and also for correctional officers, in the field and facilities.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Do you have a sense of how many people we're adding?

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: I can probably guess. I'm gonna I'm gonna get I don't know the local police snuffers. I would guess that there's roughly three to 400 state troopers. We represent the lieutenants who work for the state police. The VTA represents the breaking file trooper. We have about a 110 law enforcement officers who are not state troopers, certified law enforcement officers who were had various roles, skateboarders, DMV, that kind of stuff. I think there are about 300 to 400 COs, c o one, c o twos, supervisors. Maybe it's there's probably more than that, actually, with the supervisors in that category. And then all of the probation and parole officers. I actually don't know how many probation and parole officers Yeah. Okay. The top of my head, but and then I don't wanna guess I don't wanna guess at the mental health workers either because it gets a little confusing of, you know, we have a huge shortage of both in correctional officers and in nursing nurses. There's a ton of making positions.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: But But it sounds like it's a few on at least,

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: yeah, at least. Is there anybody else?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So two, three things. I imagine those vacant positions in these dangerous jobs unfortunately make them more dangerous jobs, thus making it more likely that someone might be injured or

[Senator Robert Norris]: Yeah. They do.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Hopefully not killed. I wanted to give you I I Googled it. There's 330 state troopers. Nice estimating. And it looks like statewide, it fluctuates between a 1,100 sworn law enforcement officers across the whole spectrum. That includes those 330 state employees. And I'm wondering if you or maybe this is a better question for DHR, might be able to get us the numbers broken down by category that this would add and the vacant positions. Because in a perfect world, those would be filled, that would available as well. So separate. Like the number of filled positions and then separately the number of vacant positions.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: That you would have, we could probably provide you the numbers of folks in the barbeque unit, but I don't know that we have the biggest position. HR definitely has it. And I think it's maybe on their website on the

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: On the dashboard. The dashboard. I hate to say this. I find it clunky and challenging. Yeah. Informational.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: And they buried it deep, so you can't you have to it used to be just right there, and I have to take some 10 different things to find it, but it it definitely would probably be able to answer it. One of the things that we did work out with the treasurer's office, which we thought was a good sort of guardrail for the legislature and for the for the state was to give the treasurer up to a year to pay out the benefit. So you can apply for it, you can be approved for it, and and then the treasurer has it up to a year to pay it out. The reason we did that was because if there was a mass casualty event. Yes. Which there could be. That's interesting. The treasurer could then come back to legislature and say, you know, we've had this mass event and we wanna provide the benefit, would you appropriate the money for it? Because I think they did have some concern that they didn't have a lot of money in there, would they be able to provide us benefits? So we thought that was a way of being able to come back in general and ask for funding should something like that happen. And I will say, hope this doesn't happen, but we have facilities that are so bearingly staffed that we are concerned that we're gonna lose one of these facilities. Some would say it's a matter of time, even how low staffing levels are. We don't have a forensic facility. Right. So our mental health folks are going in there, doing their work, and paying the price for it, a lot of physical assaults. So and and I think just in general, I think it's would be hard not to observe that society itself has become more violent and more violent toward public officials. Senator Vyhovsky?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So this is sort of a two parter. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that with the exception of law enforcement officers that are not the state troopers, every other thing on this list is a state employee.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Well, they're all state employees.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Well, no. The Lewiston police aren't state employees, and this would apply to law enforcement broadly. So my maybe I should reframe that. So when I put it on the list, the department so everything except the law enforcement officers who saw those are the police, but some of them aren't, everything else on the list is state

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that we're proposing.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. So so

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: state troopers, their the lieutenants, those are state employees. The 110 other certified law enforcement officers or state employees, and then the other classifications would all be state

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: employees. Right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. The it to my knowledge, the last time a state a state employee was killed in the line of duty was eleven year

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: was almost eleven years ago when Laura was was killed.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So it's this is not something that would come in quite often. I'm curious, and you can't answer this, but I'm curious, again, to figure out who the entity would would be that could the two Sophie, was it two times that this benefit had to pay out in

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the last year? I think it was three. Three.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But those are people already existing. The people we're proposing to add wouldn't have drawn on this in the last eleven years.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: No. It's only right now, it's only authorized for for firefighters.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes. No. I know. I know

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: they couldn't have drawn, but

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: had this bill gone in been in effect, there would have been nothing.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Oh, it would assume. Yeah. I mean, Lara Sovelle, that was eleven years ago, and she we actually made we did a separate corporation Right. To help her family. But so, no, there wouldn't have been.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Like, I think it is important to know what the number is that we're talking about, but I also think it's important to keep in mind that this fiscal impact only happens if someone dies, and that hasn't happened in eleven years. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Understood. Santa Ana. So, Steve, does someone like an actuarial need to take a look at I'm just thinking of that. Once once so we pass this, and does does, like, an actuarial need to just look at that so we can figure out because you're gonna be tying up GF funds into the future years. Think somehow some way, you're

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: gonna pay for this benefit and take it to GF, general funds. Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And so with an actuarial from some department or the treasurer's office or someone just be able to put something together, someone else in the way.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Perhaps have you already looked at it? I don't know. I see I I'm not sure. It's it's

[Senator Robert Norris]: I'm not sure.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: It's not quite the same as a pension. You've shown me COVID do that. I'm not sure it's necessary. It's not, you know, barring a mass casualty event, these are gonna be hopefully few and far between. So and at that point, you would have time because you have that delay. You'd have that time to to determine how you how the state wanted to respond to it if there wasn't enough funds in the in the same special month. I'm not sure. It's not quite as it's not invested, so it's not relying on investment returns other than interest. It's a little bit different than I'm not sure we much should we do that with any other special funds.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Okay. I I was just

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: curious. Yeah. Have a question. I have the same thought. And, you know, again, making predictions, I mean, if we knew how to do that, we can all win the lottery. But Yeah. It's hard to and it's very sort of negative to try to predict when someone's gonna lose their life. Yeah. It's different from

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: a pension. And so you every time you change a pension, you need an actuarial report because it's it's different because you know that that Right. That is gonna be paid out. Here, you're you you hope it's never gonna be paid out. Right. Exactly. And when it does, it's not it's not on the scale of a I

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: was just saying you're adding them. I don't know. 300. No.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. It's it's over a thousand.

[Senator Robert Norris]: With a thousand more.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So But every one of them is not gonna die in the line

[Senator Robert Norris]: of No.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. No. I was just saying.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. Think we

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: He has potential to have more expense. It's just the insurance Okay. Well, is there anything else for Steve? A comp or we're senator Norris is in the room now There he is. With a sort of similar bill, and we'll walk through that. Does anyone have anything else for Steve?

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Should I give my standard? I apologize for anything that's might have said.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, you have to send me because you have. So Right. I see he's in

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: the room, so I'm like, I wanna distance myself as quickly as I can, make sure I protect interests of the members of the SCA.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Thank you. So Senator Norris, you're up next. Thank you for joining us. I know the room next door must be busy. Senator Norris is in the I'm well. Senate Appropriations Committee. So we're gonna walk through s two twenty two, which is a new bill this year. And this is an act relating to survivor and disability benefits for the emergency personnel, which is a little bit different than the bill that we walked through. And I just like Senator Norris to kind of give us an idea of why he had this drafted, what has prompted him to do this, and welcome. Well, thank you

[Senator Robert Norris]: for having me. Many members I recognize for my short period of time here in government operations. For the record, my name is Senator Robert Norris. I thought you were talking about my bill upon first coming in. I'd like to thank and let you counsel Sophie to working with me on this. Yep. I can assure she's done motional work on this. So this bill, in essence, not only includes survivors, but it includes members who have disability benefits, but it it it it's the permanent disability And we're still looking at the same sums of my up to $80,000. So not only, you know, survivors of someone who lost me or lost from my line of duty, but I am looking to add law enforcement and local firefighters and EMS. See that s 89 goes a little bit further in contrast when it comes to my members there. But this is something that, as you probably well know, I've taken testimony on s 89, this is something that is run through the treasurer's office. It's a five member board. There's designees from many different areas, one to include the AG's office, and also this added criminal justice training council. This can pay up

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to $80,000 like

[Senator Robert Norris]: I said, or in contact with the treasurer's office, what I can assure you is, know when we spoke about this couple years back, we went to VPW and whatever else to include him also as emergency workers. And I thought at that point in time there's only $500,000 in the fund. So in 2024, excuse me, again, three claims were paid out for a total of $240,000 In 2025, one claim was paid out. And prior to that, there's not been a whole lot of uptick. But we're also looking at survivors from death and disability benefits also, so that may increase. These are permanent disabilities, what we're looking at. I just feel that in these times, though, everything going on, both nationally and locally, whatever else, that this is something we should at least entertain, take a look at, is this grand total of $80,000 I know earlier conversations with law enforcement, so on and so forth, they wanted to come at it from survivor I'm sorry, to the pension plan. Obviously not the best you can look at. I gave myself some of those pension plan this year going in, maybe next year also. My thought was to try to help as many folks out as we could, get our foot in the door, and just go for the $80,000 versus something that which cost millions of dollars in that particular area. Having said that, that's pretty much my involvement with this and any of the difficult questions or areas. That's what here for, right? That's what Sophie's here for, unless someone's got

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: a question in mail. Senator Vyhovsky.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I do, and I appreciate the permanent disability aspect of this. I'm wondering if you have any sense over the last, say, decade how many of this, of roughly 1,100 enforcement sworn law enforcement officers have had to retire due to permanent disability?

[Senator Robert Norris]: I don't, but what brought this on was the most recent instance in St. Johnsbury and Milton, the officer involved their shootings. And I'm not sure if they're back to work or if they have been permanently disabled, but that's certainly something I can find out and get back to this community. Yeah.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Would be really fantastic because that's a pretty broad well, it's broad. And I can I can I'm just thinking, like, news articles? I I can think of three in just the last couple of years. There was the car accident with the severe head injury of the state trooper. And so so that would be great if you could get back to me sort of number in the last decade.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I'm more Stupid when it comes to this stuff, so I apologize. But would they they're gonna get disability through Social Security, I think. Okay? Would think so. So

[Senator Robert Norris]: this would be an addition to the Social Security benefit? This is a one time payout, which will come probably much quicker than the Social Security benefits will come or anything else to insurance companies. This is something that they apply to the board within ten days, The board gives their decision on it, both for survivors and family decisions.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is there anything else you

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: can So does your bill not contain the one year delay for the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: TriNet office to actually come up with funds? That

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: would

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: be a soapy question. Okay.

[Senator Robert Norris]: I thought my wheelhouse, but I appreciate your question. Tell me if there was I'm just gonna lateral.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I watched Did she fumble? No. No. No. No. And are there separate two separate funds here? I'm trying because they're both 80,000. Is it the same fund for or are there two separate funds going on? I think

[Senator Robert Norris]: without speaking for senator Vyhovsky, think we're both building off the same funding mechanism Okay. Of the $80,000. Her hers and my bills are somewhat alike, but somewhat different is what I'm saying. Still got two folks to say, okay. What do you

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: wanna do? Do you wanna

[Senator Robert Norris]: mix and blend on this stuff here? Keep

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: them all and

[Senator Robert Norris]: blow them all away. Don't I don't care what

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: you do as long as you're

[Senator Robert Norris]: gonna put something for our police and EMS and and law enforcement officers and and firefighters.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Does anyone else have questions for senator Norris?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I do have one more, and that is and and perhaps it is just the scope of how this came to you, but I am wondering why why you're only looking at law enforcement and not many of the other incredibly dangerous jobs that we ask people to do. Well,

[Senator Robert Norris]: this bill includes law enforcement, emergency responders, and firefighters in my building. Don't know. Which one do you

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: refer to? So I I, have, as you know, a similar bill and and sort of looked at a lot of the the, you know, frontline workers, like our family service workers. And I'm just wondering if you gave any consideration to those things that I don't know what the if they're getting nexus with the state employees union with your bills, but I I didn't see the employees union. And the last time that a state employee was killed was actually a family services worker. So I just I'm I'm just wondering if there was again, it may simply be like, this is this is what came to me, and I just didn't.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, thank you for the question. Basically, is what came to

[Senator Robert Norris]: me also, but I have to tell you that I think anybody should be should receive some compensation while they're hurting the line of duty. However, being on appropriations, was looking at the overall cost. It's particularly appropriate. Rather than have something get washed away because of the cost, I'd like to be able to get my foot in the door, or want them to get our foot in the door to make sure something does come out of this

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: particular Absolutely. And you're familiar that law enforcement and a lot of our emergency service workers already have access to an over 400,000 federal federal.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Federal, yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. Awesome.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Anything else for Senator Norris? Senator Clarkson? No. That's great. That's excellent. Well, please go back to your committee and start appropriate.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Yeah. Thanks very much.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I think we just heard from our previous witness that we need a full composition, maybe I'm just fighting too long.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: All right, have a good afternoon.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks, Bob. Sophie, you're back on the scene.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Good afternoon again. Sophie McNally for the Office of Legislative Council. What I thought might be helpful for the committee was having a comparison of

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: these two bills, so I could actually Oh, that'd much.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Have

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: to, like, become part of the tables.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think we've already made a decision on the first case. Oh, I'm totally happy to remove that. Yep. That was not What

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: was that there? It's not really a decision that I made. The bill was really just it her and it came from the house.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Got it. I'm fine. So

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I think to one of

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the questions that was asked at the end there in terms of the one time funding, this bill, I don't believe, has that in. It has some of the other provisions that were discussed on the house side, and so I can talk about those when we get there. But, again, senator Nora said, this essentially, what this bill does is it takes the current survivor benefits law. It adds in law enforcement, and then it also adds a disability payout. So if that would include law enforcement, but then all the current folks covered by the the existing law. So in light of that, on the s two twenty two, it also looks at changing the name of the fund, etcetera, so there are some additional So changes on I guess I'm a

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: little puzzled with disability benefit. Why isn't that covered by workers' comp?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It would be covered by workers' comp. This would be an added benefit for someone that's permanently disabled and unable to return to work. But listen. Yeah, workers' comp, yes, they would still

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: They also compensate for that.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It does. Through SSDI. And SSDI. So Yes. There are there are other there are other sources of funding. The goal of this, and I've just I'm in middle of page four, lines 10, an award of monetary benefit under section three one seven three of this title shall not diminish or otherwise impair any other benefit that the disabled emergency personnel is entitled to receive under state or federal law. So this is intended as an additional an additional benefit, not a replacement benefit.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Sort of special.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. Got it.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Alright. Alright, so page one. That goes by for my body right now.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But. So page one on this is, again, just changing the name from a survivor's benefit for emergency personnel to just add in the term disability benefit. So that would be changing the name of the board at the bottom of page one. Page two, line six, is where they've added, where this bill adds law enforcement officers, and then it it adds them as into the definition of emergency personnel, so it doesn't then need to keep repeating that the whole way through. It would just add law enforcement officers to the definition of emergency personnel. And then, again, towards the bottom of the page, on page two, it lists out what what in in in the line of duty would be for a law enforcement officer. And then on page three, it adds a definition at line eight, subsection seven, permanent total disability means a disability as defined in the workers' compensation statute. And then line 12, again, the name of the board to add the word disability, and this would also add on line 18, at the bottom of page three, again, Senator Norris had mentioned that the board is made up of a variety of folks. This would add in the executive director of the Vermont Criminal Justice Council or executive me as a member of the board. And then turning to page four, again, this is just adding so this is really where the meat of the the bill is. A subset a new subsection three starting at line six, emergency personnel, and it goes through who suffer a permanent total disability in the line of duty may also request the same monetary benefit that's currently available. And as I noted before, it would not that benefit, if they receive it, wouldn't impact any of the other benefits to which they would be entitled. So line 14, that's just a editing fix.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I just want to be clear, back on line seven. So this isn't just state workers, this is folks that work for municipality as well?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is emergency personnel that work for municipality. This is the firefighters, the emergency medical Right. Personnel that

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So this includes volunteers. Right. So

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: originally, my understanding is originally the this this fund was created specifically for firefighters because a lot of them were volunteers, and they didn't otherwise have access to benefits. So that was the origin of this benefit.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So do firefighters not have access to the federal benefit?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They do. Even if they're volunteer? I believe so.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Oh, good. Another question?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. Forgive me. I suppose I should know this. But workers' comp doesn't get paid out to people who are volunteers, does it?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. Because normally it's through your employer. But I think there may be

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I would just try to check.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So there is so this is a big question mark for.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Because I'm not sure who would pay for it. Right? Because workers' compensation is paying for workers' compensation.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Right. That I think that's a question.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Yep. Alright. So

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and again, page five is just adding in language, a disabled emergency personnel just to make it consistent throughout. Page six, page seven, the same thing. So page seven, line six, that's the monetary benefit. That's where the 80,000 is listed, and it adds in an emergency personnel who suffer a permanent total disability in the line of duty. And then there are a couple of additional provisions in section three one seven five on page six. And again, this came out of testimony from last year around the challenge at the treasurer's office if there isn't enough money to pay out from the fund. So this would provide that the fund can also be comprised of appropriations made by the general assembly and then amounts transferred by the emergency board when the general assembly is not in session. So it just it provides that there's that option to request it. And then at the end, on page seven, subsection c, in the event of the balance of the fund is insufficient to pay the monetary benefits when the general assembly is not in session, the emergency board can transfer the additional amounts. So that's additional language that's in there to address that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that's one of yeah. On EMS, does that include ambulance services as well? Yep.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Ambulance. Yeah. Ambulance. Right. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: there's there's all types of ambulance services because sometimes you have volunteer, you have full time, and then sometimes you have both. So there's a hybrid.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So it's what what this bill well, the current statute does is it cross references in title 20 the definitions of firefighter. So for example, it has in the cross definition of firefighter in title 20, but then in title 24, it defines medic volunteer personnel so that it it hooks into definitions that are in other places. So, yes. Yes. Yes.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: Because of this law.

[Senator Robert Norris]: Yep.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes. There is. I mean, and they're

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: all in all of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: your firefighters too. There's a long Right. So So I'm

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: trying to wrap my brain around I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: think we need a JFO weigh in on this. Because this would be significant.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Again, it's well, we don't know the novicella of those that are permanently disabled. Right? Yeah.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: I haven't heard of more than

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: one a year. Can think of three in the last couple of years.

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: Oh, bonkers burgers? Oh, no. I'm Thank you.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, yeah. Right. No. That's correct.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's a good point.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So if we were in the $400,000

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And would that pertain to all of the Yeah. Answers that they get? Oh, I'm

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Holy cow. It didn't look like that when I came to

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: The States. Senator Norris mentioned $400,000 in

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the fund. Oh, Where did 400

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: come from?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So there's this federal benefit that's called the Public Safety Officer's Benefit, and it provides a cash benefit to federal, state, local law enforcement officers, firefighters, employees of emergency management agencies, members of emergency medical service agencies who are killed or permanently and totally disabled as a result of personal injury sustained in the line of duty. It also has so and that amount goes up each year, and it's I think for it gets set in October, and I believe it's 461,000 and something And right then there's also an education benefit that goes So

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: that's the federal statute, and that would apply to disability. So s 22 proposes to give $80,000 of state money to people who are already eligible for over $400,000 of federal money. I

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: think being

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's good point.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I'll just say, but this is someone, like, dying in the line of duty. Yeah. I

[Senator Robert Norris]: agree with

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: you. Plenty of people who have who have plenty.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Oh, I agree with your bill, but I also agree with this bill. I'm always going to be in favor of people who die in the line of duty having their family and friend,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: family and community get it.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I just think if we're seeking fiscal responsibility, we're concerned about the spending, spending the money on people who already have the top $400,000 of federal money while ignoring the people who have access to no federal money and do equally dangerous jobs. And, like, if we have to pick and choose, I would wanna give the $80,000 to people I don't wanna pick and choose. What am talking about? Yeah. I would wanna give that money to people who don't have access to a $400,000 benefit, who have also had members of their staff die in the line of duty. Again, I don't wanna pick and choose, but if I have to, I would wanna prioritize people who have equally dangerous jobs that don't have access to $460,000 of federal money.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: I don't think $400,000 is enough.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Neither is 80. And right now, we're giving 80,000 in addition to that Yeah. To in this bill while continuing to give nothing. We I would like

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to do

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: both. It's just fine.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: But we have like, yeah, we have to pick and choose for fiscal responsibility's sake. I'm simply putting out where my priorities would lie and not

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: be on people who currently have nothing. Yes. And

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: yes, I hear that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Any other questions for attorneys to let me? Thank you for the sign by sign.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, that was helpful. Just thought it would be interesting. Actually, are in the house too, so there's a lot of different versions going around.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Ah. Okay. Works for shop. Is there three more?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think there's three bills in the house. So there's a new one, and then there's age 57 from.

[Steve Howard, Executive Director, VSEA]: We gotta hear some somehow from William Castle.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They're they're all slightly different flavors.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Very Yes. So

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I will say one of the ones in the house is identical to senator Norris' bill. It's a companion bill, so it's essentially identical.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yep. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Oh,

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: yes, please. Anyone

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: up

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: to have some chew. I have

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: more in the drawer. I needed some about twenty minutes ago. I have a small something here, but let me show you the exhaustion.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: we'll take further testimony, I'll take on both, and see where we go. I have the treasurer written down as a potential witness on SD89 and also VHR. I'm not sure who else to have in on 02/22, but maybe joint fiscal, I don't know. It seems like they well, again They can join fiscal. Wouldn't be Alright. Pretty to guess. So

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I just don't know how they would even make a prediction. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I know. Well, I mean, particularly the volunteers. I'm I'm sorry. The workers' council volunteers is really problematic.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I will check on that. I mean, maybe there's some some way that it's handled, but I didn't see it like it did. But I

[Senator Robert Norris]: And I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: have to check volunteer firefighter, but I didn't.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I don't know if other states maybe have done something

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: similar They must.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I mean, to me, the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: very concept that asking someone to risk their life on a volunteer basis is wacky. Like, I don't Without

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: them, we'd be in a lot worse shape. Okay. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Greg. Just Oh my god, it's a brain. For the committee's

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You want some raspberry? I just had my piece, thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I mean, it does. Folks that are watching or listening on YouTube, that's fine. Next week, well, tomorrow, first of all, we have folks coming in from the Cannabis Control Board and also Oh, let me read the So James Pepper, the chair of the CCB, will be here at one, and Dave Silverman, the director of the Vermont Cannabis Activity Fund will will I also be coming in at don't have anything else on the calendar for tomorrow. We have other bills we can run through a couple. Yeah, Senator White.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Well, I'm just wondering since we're having the cannabis control board, we have one related fill that I know I introduced.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I have two that I expect to get numbers and make it, but somehow Yeah. Was But I think

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the both of you are gonna

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: do this year. I know. Well, I was gonna say committees of jurisdiction. And it's related to cannabis sale or commerce or it comes to our committee, it's not an economic development.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: If it has to change statute This year. No. I changed that. Well, I mean, like, criminal statute. If it has to turn criminal

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It's a It's a judiciary. Why is it coming here? Because it's elections. It's about elections. Oh, so that's oh, that's why.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Because I was I asked you to send question.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: It would well, it's it's Yeah. So I

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: didn't my point is it's if we could just talk about

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: it tomorrow in conjunction to

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: leave their comment on well, we could do s two seventy six tomorrow

[Senator Robert Norris]: Okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: To get their comment. You know, I Why they coming in here? Because we have the Vermont League of Cities and Towns want us to do some cannabis stuff, and I figured we should hear from the CCB.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. But we don't

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: If the LCP wants to stuff on cannabis, they tend to come to. Help me. You see, I'll take belong there. Who made the decision to opt in, opt out? I don't know. Was before my husband. I think it was judiciary.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yes. So my job is probably.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. We're We're getting rattled here. Yours would change that, which is arguably our jurisdiction. Yes. It's a municipality. Awesome. I'm still not clear why we're gonna have And it's great to have James and Dave come in, but Senate Ag is the committee of jurisdiction when you're growing it As as a soon as it comes out and it becomes a product, it goes to Senate Economic Development.

[Senator Robert Norris]: So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Or judiciary. So oddly that cannabis has four committees.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: And if you are driving while impaired, transportation can be in the mix.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well That's all Yeah. Guess. You added to that.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You guess. What about if you're teaching cannabis courses? Does that then go to

[Senator Robert Norris]: a change? Yeah. Sorry

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: about that. At any rate, that's for tomorrow. We'll have a room tootin' good time with our Next week, the Ethics Commission will be in at 01:00 on Tuesday. Right now it's Paul Earlman and Earl Vaughn, excuse me, who is the commissioner, and potentially more witnesses. I did not hear any of the other witnesses in my pee, but he's coming in at 01:00.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh. I may have a witness. I got an email in the last day or two just about the one that used to testify at

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: the sign of the We're trying to pull up for you. Okay? We'll also take our first look at a bill that may or may not advance. I mean, all of these are may or may not. S-two 75, an accolade to creation of the cemetery vandalism response function.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Think we

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have it.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's a David Weeks bill, that's a you and David Weeks bill.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's Dave Weeks and other Williams and myself on behalf of Tom Giffin, who was the cemetery commissioner for Rutland City and also was president of VOCA, which is the Vermont Old Cemetery And it came about when, again, we were doing some work trying to restore graveyards. I would really You would be amazed how much and maybe I missed the memo when I was a teenager about let's go to the cemetery and knock some headstones over. I just it was never anything I would ever think, as I think Melaine was here when I said, if you soap somebody's window on Halloween or you threw toilet paper over a tree, that was about as bad as we got. This is like serious, expensive vandalism. So the bill would charge, when you have a funeral or a cremation, I assume, a fee. I don't know. I think it's $5 and that would begin to get collected and put in a fund for vandalism repair. That's what the whole bill is. So we will hear from Tom Diffely. I think that's a

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: great idea because some are public and some are private, but all of them don't get enough money to repair those.

[Senator Robert Norris]: I agree.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. We're gonna take it up. Senator?

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Mr. Chittenden, yes, I'm very interested in that bill. Oh. We have less of, I would say, like, teenage hygiene vandalism and more of people backing up and, like, running over a gravestone. And then I mean, yeah. Sounds

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: like during the

[Senator Robert Norris]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: It's like service or they're going to the

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: It seems like people visiting

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: the their family members and then not seeing a headstone, making a turn.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. We always So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: not vandals.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Yeah. I wouldn't I still think it's I would consider it vandalism because it is breaking

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: and So their insurance why?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Their insurance

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: don't stay good.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: Well, it's like peep it's like how do you know you don't know how it got knocked over. The assumption is we probably have the occult.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Like, someone probably over and tell somebody.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: You have a good moral code.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And not

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I'm gonna cut my judiciary hat on. Vandalism has a very specific

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. I guess that's

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: not vandalism. Well, I guess that's kind of like Yes. Have intent.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You have to have intent.

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: As if it's not just

[Sarah Clark, Secretary of Administration]: vandalism. Would be interested as well if it's not just vandalism.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Well, Tom Gifford could probably, he's like I said, he's the head.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Tom is sister cemetery.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So those are the two items Tuesday. Wednesday

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yes, he

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: is sister Cemetery. We're gonna talk with Shelley Martin, president of the Vermont retired state employees, with some requests that they have to amend the makeup of the retired employee committee on insurance, so called REC E. I don't know. I believe Steve Howard will be in right behind Shelley to testify where the VSEA stands on, because I don't think they're not, they may be aligned, but they're not the same group. There's a retired state employees group and then the VSEA, they're not the same thing. So that's all I have for that. Thursday is 02:55, which is Senator Harrison's bill about establishing pilot law enforcement governance council in Wyndham County. We're gonna have Senator Wendy Harrison start it off, and then Tim Denton walk through the bill. Jeanette White, former senator from Wyndham County, I don't believe she's gonna hike up here, but we'll have her on Zoom. And then Sheriff Mark Anderson, who was the Wyndham County sheriff. From what I understand, and I think I've explained this before, they have gone out, Mark probably more than others, and talked to the town managers and the select board of everybody in Wyndham County, and they're all, say, all over. Let's just say there's great support for this particular sort of idea. It's a pilot, so whatever the costs are, gonna have to be borne probably by folks there. And then if it works, it might be something that we can Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We can try

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: take to other counties. Well, we have been wanting to keep this moving

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: for a long time. Yeah. Curious to

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: see what it looks like.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that's Thursday, and again, know everything else, we'll probably flush things out. And then on Friday, we're gonna have a meeting to allow retirement group C, law enforcement officers remain in group C after becoming police recruit trainers at the Vermont Police Academy.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That would be smart.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Existing statute would require them to join group F.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Which is probably different benefits, but I know it's length of time, twenty years worth of service versus thirty. So things change for them and they don't want, they wanna stay in group C and have a nice cozy little time. So again, we'll hear from Steve Howard. Happened to our voting rights What's happened to our voting rights bill?

[Senator Rebecca “Becca” White (Member)]: It was not introduced today. Don't know.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: But I'll take that up next week.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: As soon as it's introduced.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I I don't know if it makes sense, to not have Steve Howard have to come in a a additional time, but I also S two ninety five was just introduced today and it's on our wall, and that's also about changes to the state employees. Yeah. Oh, So it might make sense to take those up at the same time.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Good idea. Or not at the same time, because

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: apparently most people don't have

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to do

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: two things at once.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We just did two things at once. But in the same.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that's the group membership and the stay employee retirement system.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes, that's a

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: good And are suggesting that would be Friday, or?

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I would do it whenever you're doing the groups evening.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah, okay.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Because

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: though the other one's also a retirement thing, but that's all right.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yes, I will give you some information as to why I didn't have the experience. Okay.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So that's what I got for next week. I know that with all available ability to predict, we're gonna have some weather to deal with. Probably not tomorrow. I don't think tomorrow's an issue. We'll probably be in and be able to get out of here below. Not sure we're expecting this. But There were some snow swells. Very cold on Saturday, and then Sunday, late afternoon, we're supposed to get half a foot, and then Monday, another half a foot. So it could be a little bit dicey getting up here next week. I usually call it Mondays.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So That's fine.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I I'll just leave earlier and drive more slowly and arrive. I hate coming up when I gotta get up Mhmm. And drive and then get up.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So concern for Tuesday morning weather?

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes. I think it'll be over by then. Okay. But I don't know how quickly things get cleaned up. You know, I've said, I'm not a weatherman. What a job, right? You get tape regardless of how accurate you are. Partly. Partly something, partly body. That's 25, 15 inches.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. And so none of none

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: of this may happen. I mean, it could be just another cloudy weekend here. I don't know. But I'm just making you aware that

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Monday, it's definitely gonna snow. It's exciting. We got this

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: is great for I think when I looked

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: at the map, it was Are

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: we still on the heavier Yep. In southern

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We're just going. It's fine.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Certainly is worth being being aware of. But it's I

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: like what we stay on because I think people can get a sense of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Who we feel

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: of us and, sometimes people think, well, that camera goes out, I bet the knives come out. That doesn't happen in this community.

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I mean We're not afraid to let them come out right on the record. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: again, I want to thank Lynn Jakobowski for another And good you seem to be settling in very nicely, and we appreciate all your hard work. And if you have issues or want to have additions to the agenda beside the two that we've asked about, just let me know over the weekend. Well, I keep thinking this is Friday. It's So

[Senator Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We got a light Friday.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Chair)]: That's it for the day. We'll adjourn for the day. We'll see all of you tomorrow.