Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Welcome back to the Senate Committee on Government Operations for the first day session, Tuesday, January 6. We are joined by the Executive Director of the VSEA, the Vermont State Employees Association, Steve Howard. I was surprised I either read or heard you say, you've been there thirteen years.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I've been there thirteen years.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Yeah. And before that, he was with us in the house.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yes. And I'm only 39, so it's really amazing. Really amazing.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So welcome. We hopefully will be joined by Vince Aluzzi, who's a state's attorney in Essex County. He has an emergency kind of situation in a courtroom. I think he said he was in his car trying to do it on a digital device. But anyway, welcome in. Thank you. And we're delighted to have you today, and we'd love to have you tell us what your priorities are for the second.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Thank you, mister chairman. First, let me start by saying it's wonderful to be back in my favorite committee. My favorite senators.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Moderating us off the aggregate.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And, you know, all good things come from wrong. True.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Right on. Well,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the head and the tail of the table.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: That's right. That's right. Well, let's see. We have a few priorities. One is to keep senator Lusi from speaking to legislators this year. It's my goal to try to keep them, you know, arms length from each legislator. He seems to be violating that already. So we'll have to reexamine that, but that New Year's resolution is see if I could find something more workable.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: You could tell about the single point of entry in some others.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. Right. God. So VSEA has a number of issues that we've been working on and have been working on for a while that come into the purview of your committee. And know, I don't know if this is the year when there's an omnibus VSEA bill, but we would maybe encourage that and think about that. I think there are components of everything in our laundry list of wishes that maybe could win support here, win support on the floor, and and potentially be signed by the governor, which I know is important for everybody to consider. Just a few things just to point out, you you're all veterans of this. I know you're fairly new to this committee, so this might be a good information for you. But I'd encourage the committee members to become familiar, if you're not already, with the employee satisfaction survey. It's the employee engagement survey that is sent out by the administration and by the Department of Human Resources. I believe Chittenden emailed it to the committee if he has, if he will. And just look at you know, all the data in there, and you'll see that the three agencies that have the highest level unsatisfied employees are the DMV, the DOC, and the agency of education. And those at least the last two have been pretty consistent for the last decade. Yeah. It might be an issue of important importance that triggers a call the commissioner of HR, secretary of administration, the leaders of these agencies to say, are you gonna do to bring that unsat rate down among your employees? That might be something to look at. Return to commute.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Can I just Haven't you done that? I mean, isn't that a question of the FDA? You should be asking Beth's office and and understand.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: We we can, but we don't we don't have the oversight role that that they would pay attention to. That we can ask them about that, but they they don't report to us. So the answer we get is very different than they would give the folks who oversee their budget and oversee their their agency. Yep. What got to do it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: The least happy in order scale, was it DMV first, then DOC?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Think DOC is the highest with a 40% dissatisfaction rate, and DOE is 35%, AOE is 30. And what's interesting about this is this that engagement survey also includes the opinion of managers. So it's not all just our members. It also includes folks who are not in bargaining in it. But, you know, it would be good to ask the administration in your oversight role, like, what's your plan to approve that? To ask the Secretary of Education and Secretary of Transportation and the Commissioner of DOC and the Secretary of AHS, what's their plan to improve how their employees feel about working in their agencies, given that they're the highest three in state government? And fairly substantially substantial agencies that are important to Vermonters.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: How does the dissatisfaction rate correlate with the current vacancy rate or does it?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: You know, it's funny. I was just thinking two seconds ago, you took the words right out of my mouth. I I have the overall vacancy rate for the state, but as I understand, the vacancy rate in AOE and DOC in particular are fairly high. Mhmm. Now the DOC well, actually, have I do have those numbers. At least for DOC, the vacancy rate is 11%. But the question you really had to ask, which I did not come prepared for, is what's the vacancy rate in the c o one classification? Because that's the classification that's the entry level classification that has the massive turnover that generates the sixteen hour shifts that generates people leaving corrections before they end their service. But I don't know the other two agencies. I do know AOE's vacancy rate historically has been pretty high.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, particularly in the last four years. It's been Yeah. Five years.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And you hear it sometimes from superintendents, they'll say it slows down response to from the agency. I have this program. I in the other in the education committee, believe they're taking testimony on the agency reorganization in AOE. And I have heard conflicting feedback about how that's going and how people feel about that. So it may be something consistent with their role looking at education you might want to look at because certainly in all of the discussion about education, having the most functional agency of education possible is probably helpful in that regard. I would say the other thing that has been taking a lot of our time is the whole, what we call the return to commute campaign. As you know, the governor directed in a press conference really without speaking with any of us, the new VSEA or any members, that he was going to return state employees who have been working very successfully for the last six years from home to office space, often to office space that doesn't exist. It it it was met, as you may have heard from your constituents, with not so positive a response from from employees, from our members, many of whom moved out of state for a variety of reasons with permission of their employer or or who were hired with the knowledge that they would live out of state. Many live in various portions of the state, Northeast Kingdom, Bennington, Brattleboro, Rutland, and are and had been able to tap into the jobs that are available in Central Vermont and in Chittenden County. You know, we often hear it, with all due respect to the senator from Chittenden, you hear from a lot of Vermonters that there's Vermont and then there's Chittenden County. Well, when you wanna share the wealth of Chittenden County with the rest of the with rest of the state through return to commute opportunities, governor's shutting that that right off and saying, no. You have to live in Washington County. You have to live in Chittenden County, or you have to be willing to drive an hour and a half to an hour both ways in the winter weather and try to get to your childcare facility on time so you don't have to pay the extra fee to pick your kid up. Since this was done in September when the after school programs were all shut down and you couldn't get any more kids into after school programs, so there's extra cost associated with with it to our members, but, there's also a very substantial cost for the taxpayers. Leasing additional space in Waterbury is gonna cost at least $3,000,000. We'd rather see that money spent to increase the wages in our network. We'd see that spent on housing. We'd rather see that spent on home heating assistance. We do not think we have to lease space from somebody who has a very close relationship with the governor at $3,000,000 a year for space that we we haven't needed in the last six years.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So may I just interject here, John, that this is the space issue has been exacerbated by the flooding of two thousand twenty three, and actually the state lost a significant 17 buildings.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah, sold, we sold a major building in Chittenden County.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Huge, surprising number of buildings that

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: are still not back online.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And it's, essentially the Department of Health, was so heroic during the pandemic and does such great work for our state, You know, they were displaced as was economic services and a few other agencies where we sold the Zampierre Building. Economic services landed in Burlington, but health was moved to Waterbury and the compromise with then with then the then commissioner, who has since retired, was that they could work from home, because almost all of them live in Burlington or live in Chittenden County. They have childcare in Chittenden County, they're adult daycare in Chittenden County, everything's in Chittenden County. And unfortunately, we're leasing space in order to house them in the water, you know, the returning community from our members' perspective is a bad idea and a waste of taxpayer's funds. It's gonna cost us valuable employees. But at least if you're gonna lease space for the health department, you can maybe ask them, would it be more convenient to do that in Chittenden County than to make them all drive three days a week to Wattenberg for no for no reason. And it's you know, we're we're looking at some experts that might come in and talk with you about it if you were to hold an oversight hearing on how our members would certainly, I'm sure, willing to come share their stories. But the Sloan School of Management at MIT and Baylor University have done extensive research on the impacts of return to commute. And, you know, MIT, I went to Boston College, so I don't really I'm not that impressed with MIT. If was Boston College study, might be more impressed, but I'm pretty impressed with MIT. You know, they said, look. The results are in from the private sector's effort to force people back to the office, and what's happened is that the best and the brightest have left. They have gone to jobs that allow them to to to commute. The other thing that's really happened is that Work or not. Work or not. The other thing that's happened is that women have left.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And they've taken a pay cut in order to have a job that allows them to work remotely. Return to commute has a disproportionate impact on women and on minorities. You don't have to ask me. Ask It the Vermont Commission on Women that has spelled out in detail to the secretary of administration what the impacts could be. So I would encourage you to have a secretary of administration in to testify on what data she relied on to make this, and that the governor relied on to make this decision, what studies did they read, and who did they talk to about this, because it wasn't the state employees who were affected

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: by

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: it.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And what's the current requirement? They can come into office three days out of five, I think?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: They're required to be there three days out, a minimum of three days. Some are coming in more.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Senator Vyhovsky?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I know as this was being sort of unfolded, there was, and just because I'm in Chittenden County, assure you I've heard plenty of concerns about this. There was a lot of concern around how it was happening and this sort of chaos even within the office in terms of, like, not having fixed workplaces and Mhmm. Planning to go for a certain day, but then not having an available workspace. Can you speak to whether or not that has quieted down or if it is still pretty chaotic?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: It's still pretty chaotic. I understand that the delayed in Waterbury, at least some agencies have had the implementation of the of the governor's mandate has been delayed in order to accommodate for some of that. That's right. They are moving, I think, Diva to a new building. They're they're they're still moving all around. And what unfolded during the rollout of this proposal was complete and total chaos. Supervisors I mean, I have to just tell you honestly my assessment based on the number of managers who have called me outside of people who are not in the bargaining unit and said, half my staff is leaving or looking for another job. What do I do? And I said, tell the governor. Tell the governor. Tell the secretary of administration. You know, I can't help you. You got to tell the administration. I think the governor and maybe his political staff are the only people who think this is a good idea. I can tell you by the sheer experience I've had with the number of managers throughout state government who work directly for the governor, some of them who have said, is overnight. It's really, it's on the surface looks like an easy issue, like just drive into work. You know, some people have to drive into work, so then everybody should have to drive to work. It's very easy to explain it that way, but when you look under the hood, it's more complicated. It has a negative impact on the tax.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So it is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: interesting how our world has shifted in a mere five years. So five years ago, they were all going into work every day. So it is it is interesting how COVID has shifted both work habits and expectations of my who was it that just ruled that the court that it was fine to order this? Who the court either the court or somebody just ruled that it was that the governor was in was in

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: They ruled on it on our our motion for a Yeah. Injunction. And while they

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And they did not give you that.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: No. They well, they found they had the this has never been done in Vermont before. So They

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: didn't have the authority.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: The court found that they they had the authority to issue the injunction, and you have to prove irreparable harm. They based on some of the testimony from the administration, which we know not to be reflective of what's really happened, they said that they thought the exemptions that were being provided addressed the issue of reputable harm. And they said the labor board has jurisdiction over this issue, and the labor board can ask for an injunction. And so the labor board we have a hearing on February 5. There's three hearing dates before the labor board on whether we file an unfair labor practice and a grievance that is at the labor board, because we think this is an issue that is clearly a arguable issue. On the national level, the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board, in an interesting case that actually involves employees at Goddard College, found that where an employee works is an issue that is bargainable, but that's a national decision. And so now we it has not been decided in Vermont. And so we hope at the end of this process that they will find it is a bargainable issue and that the governor should is required to go bargain with us about it. Senator White.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you, mister chair. So we had discussed at one point I'm getting back into old habits. I'm getting bored. It

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: always brings a smile to your face.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I remember over the off session, there was a discussion potentially of having, like, a public hearing where folks were gonna come. And what I learned through that process was it wasn't clear to me what we as a legislature could do about this move. You know, no matter how you feel about it, I wasn't really sure what our her view was. So I guess that's really a main question. And I don't know if that's you're welcome to answer it, but Yeah. That might be something we ask generally legislative council as well.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I'm glad to add that there's a couple of things you could do immediately. First of all, you could refuse to fund the leases via Waterbury. Okay. And that would be something that could be done in a budgetary standpoint. But the taxpayer should not have to spend that $3,000,000 on office space we don't need. The other thing I think it's really we're gonna ask you to do, I think we've encouraged we've found somebody to introduce the bill, is to look at the flexible work arrangement statute, which does exist and unfortunately the administration is ignoring. We that is a statute that says that employees can have flexible work arrangements, and they can there's no language in the statute, current statute, that says that you have to ask for a compelling reason or specific reasons. You can ask for any reason. And it'd be good to hear from the Human Rights Commission that is that enforces that law on how they feel the administration is how I'm affiliated whether the administration's in compliance with that law. That would be good to hear from them. I don't know. They're quasi judicial, so I'm not sure if they wouldn't testify. They might. They might come in general and speak about it. I know they're very interested in They were parties to our hearing on the injunction. I think they've sent a cease and desist letter to the administration, and we've seen some minor tweaks in their administration's language as a result of that, but no change in the way they're handling the statute. So, you know, that's that's that's another piece of this that we think is really important.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I think Senator Vyhovsky had a hearing that first.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I we did. I was wondering oh, were you not done?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: No. But you had a third thing. You said there are three things we can do, and

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I got refused to fund leases, flexible Workplace Yeah. What's the third thing?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Or maybe there isn't a public hearing?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Definitely a public hearing. We had a hearing, some of you may have attended, with the Working Vermonters Caucus, and we had something like 800 people on their lunch hour and so many people that the Zoom crashed.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Oh, yep.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And that's the SCA's experience with our we were having some just member information sessions about this because this really upended people's lives and they didn't know what they might have to quit their job in order to

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Figure out how to take care their kids and do all their live their life. And we would have anywhere from 300 to 500 of our members come out for those lunchtime meetings. So it's an issue that it has a very strong impact on our members. And let and I'll just be I'll be clear. Not a 100% of our members agree with the position we take on this, and some a lot of our members do have to report to the office, but there's there's no reason to increase the cost of the taxpayer and really make employees dissatisfied and unhappy just because some folks have to report to the work site. It just doesn't pass the straight face test. We want as many happy employees as we can find and as many diverse places as we can find them and as many diverse employees as we can find, and we wanna do it at a cost effect in a cost effective way to the taxpayer. We don't wanna charge them $3,000,000 more for leases that we don't need. So did Ryalski?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. So my question is sort of going back. You said the NLRB had ruled that this is bargainable. How similar are the statutes around our Vermont Labor Board and the National Labor Board?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I think we should have our legal department discuss it, but I think typically the the VLRB tends to follow the example of the NLRB, and in this case, they haven't. So we're hopeful that they haven't issued any decision yet on that. They've never had, I think, an opportunity to do that. So this will be maybe their first opportunity to weigh in, and we hope that they will weigh in on the side of the employees. And it doesn't mean that you know, what it means is that the governors have the inputs would bring it to a halt. A governor would happen to come to the bargaining table and meet face to face with employees, which frankly, if you ask me from just a managerial perspective, even if he didn't agree that it is a bargainable issue, and clearly the administration doesn't, coming to sit down with the with the employees face to face and talking through the issues and see if we could resolve those before it was announced at a press conference Mhmm. Would have been helpful. Yeah. Our members felt really disrespected.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Like, we're thinking of doing this. What? So what's Yeah.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Mean, it just How old do you feel like? And then the then the meetings that we had with them, we had one meeting with them in which we asked a series of questions, and the answer was, we don't have that information. We don't have any data. We don't know the answer to that. We didn't get anything that helped our members, but they were on the verge of trying to figure out how to reorganize their life in order to comply with the mandate. Or a lot of people there's three pieces to this. There's folks who can request an accommodation under the ADA, the Americans with Disability Act, and that has a certain procedure in federal law that the administration has to follow. There's the state's flexible work arrangement, which also has a procedure that the state's supposed to follow, they're not doing that. They are doing it, I think, with the RAs, but they're taking forever. They're very slow to review them. And we've got a lot of reports from our members of meetings that are required by the federal law in which our members felt attacked and belittled because of their request for accommodation. In fact, they've asked, often have asked that can we send a union rep. Uh-huh. But there are so many requests for accommodations. We don't have the staff to do that. We can advise them. We've created video advice about how to approach the meeting, But they're very intimidating meetings, and they're about some very personal things. Yeah. And all of this is unnecessary because what we've been doing for six years has worked has worked effectively. And if you look at the governor's own research, his own engagement survey the last two years, when asked if people felt remote work helped them be collaborative, they all, up to 80 to 90% said it helps them to be more collaborative. It helps them to be more productive. So the governor's actually putting in place a policy that our members feel will make them less likely to collaborate and less productive, which is also a hit at the taxpayers. And so I feel like this is a policy that the government oversight, the government operations committee could provide significant oversight because it impacts our members, but it severely hampers the taxpayer. And I'd also say that he worked very hard on housing. Housing is clearly a top issue. The reason people live an hour and a half to two hours away, because in the last six years, they were told they could work remotely and they couldn't find housing in Montpelier, Waterbury, or Burlington. And so you can't go and give a speech about how we don't have housing and then tell people they have to live in some of the most expensive communities in the state, or commute an hour and a half or two hours. It's just inconsistent. Just wrong. Follow-up to

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: the question about the Vermont Labor Board. I and this is sort of coming from my judiciary lens. I know a lot of times, you know, our participants are to follow, and sometimes they sort of kick back and say, like, if that puts you off, put it in statute. Would it be helpful or precedented to sort of put in statute that this is collective bar this is a collective bargaining issue?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I mean, careful about how I answer that. Okay. I don't wanna trigger an unfair labor practice, which we have to be careful about. Okay. I'd have to do little bit more research on that. Okay. We can't come to the state house and ask party can come to the state house and ask the legislature to do something that was a subject to bargaining. It's it may maybe potentially, if a decision comes from the labor board that's adverse to our position, that might free us up to do that because then they'd say, well, it wasn't a bargaining position.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: So I think maybe you have to if there's some clarification from the board, it might help.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Okay. And I guess my other I guess my sort of underlying question there is, is there a precedent? Are there other places where the legislature directs that this shall be bargained for? Yes. Okay. Yes.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Gender inflection.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So how many people of the 8,000 DSEA members, how many people at this point are affected? How many people at the moment is this a real problem for?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Well, we have 6,000 members. I think so. 8,000 total employees, 6,006 I wish we had 8,000 members.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We fill some of those vacancies. Maybe we can

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: get Yeah. Working we're working toward that goal, definitely. But we've we've a little over 6,000 members. I don't know that we've counted how many people this impacts specifically other than to say that the people who have actively participated anywhere from, you know, 500 to a thousand people. So it's hard for us to estimate how many people specifically it impacts because not everybody reaches out to us about it. If they are just you know, they may just be trying to comply with whatever the administration put out. Although it was it was fairly confusing because supervisors did not know what to say, managers did not know what to say for the longest period of time, and they would just say this is all being driven by the the the agency of administration, and we don't know what to tell you. So and the exceptions process also left a lot to be desired because what was being what was happening was supervisors were being told to deny the request for exceptions and not let it get up to the second period of administration. And some some supervisors just refused to do that. And they just said, okay. So I'm not doing it because this doesn't make any sense. And so it's a little bit that process was really a nightmare, but anyway, I'd encourage you to take a deeper dive into that issue. Staffing is constantly an issue in the state. We have eight eighty one vacancies, which is, you know, for a while we ran over we're running over a thousand. The 2027% vacancy rate in the Department of Mental Health, which is mostly at a psychiatric care hospital, And 27% also at the Vermont Veterans Home, which is mostly among nursing staff. So we pay a lot of money for traveling nurses as a result of that. So there's an issue that I think would be be interesting to look at from a government operations perspective. I mentioned the 11% of the COs. I've just spent a significant amount of time with our COs and correctional facilities across the state in the last six months. They're exhausted, more than I've ever seen. And in Newport in particular, which is up in your neck in the woods my dear it is. It's a human it's a humanitarian crisis up there, and the administration's response to it is, like, nonchalant, slower than death, not an emergency situation, and yet that is not what we hear on the ground from our members. They have had it. And so I think the holdup is that we can't rearrange the chairs on the Titanic. We need more resources in order to attract and retain staff. The number one issue is the sixteen hour shifts. There's a ton of other issues in productions, but what's driving people to quit, the sixteen hour shifts and sort of the chaotic approach that the management's taking to dealing with the lab. Sixteen hour shifts.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I wanna go back and we'll get to the center of the DLC again. To the unsatisfactory servant. I definitely can understand DOC employees being just absolutely frustrated with sixteen hour shifts. I'm a little puzzled about DMV. Yeah. What data did you sort of get from the survey that said, why are they dissatisfied? And also, I'm a little mystified about AOE. Yeah.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I don't you know, the survey doesn't go into why. Oh. But I think that's part of maybe what hearings could determine, and we certainly could bring we could try to if we could find members who are willing to testify publicly because they're worried about retaliation, we can certainly we can certainly poll them and relay to you what they say.

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk/Member)]: Yeah, so Mr. Chair, thank you, Steve. So the governor's wanting workforce to

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: go back to work you're Has always been working, just to be clear. No, not at the office. Back to the office. Yeah.

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk/Member)]: And I just heard you say that they're just as effective, just as efficient, working from home. That was gonna be my question. Does the administration say that too?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: What the administration has said is, well, people will be better collaborators if they're in the same office. Okay. And the data shows the opposite. Their own opinions as employees is a so what's

[Sen. John Morley III (Clerk/Member)]: the administration to do this?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: There's a lot of theories.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Oh, that's lovely.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. I can just relay the theories. One is pressure from the downtowns that want customers.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I mean, particularly, I'm feeling devastated by the flooding. And then just with nobody back, they're having a brutal time.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Small businesses. Small businesses. Yes.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: That's one thing. Know, when Waterbury too. We've encouraged for the last six years, we've encouraged the administration in the state to look at the available space in the downtowns and convert those spaces to housing. I encourage you to look at the program that mayor Michelle Wu has led in Boston where she is converting office space. You know, a city the size of the state of Vermont, somehow Michelle Wu can do it, but in Vermont, it's a huge impossible task. We couldn't possibly do it. That would have helped downtown and will help downtown in a more sustainable way than forcing people to drive two hours into office. I mean, there's an incentive to bring a bad a a bad lunch if you're really mad at people who have made you drive four hours to work every day, back and forth. There are conspiracy theories about who owns the buildings in in Waterbury. They're getting the leases. The one of the owners is a close friend of the governor's who has contributed to the governor and has purchased businesses from the governor. This and I know that person, and he's a very nice person and a nice guy, but it looks bad for space that we don't need. That's another theory that is on the table. The other is that it's a way to align politically with folks in Vermont who might be supporters of president Trump by following a similar policy of president Trump, who did the exact same thing when he became president. So that's those are the theories I've heard most from our members. But none of it really we've never heard from the governor White other than the collaboration argument. Haven't heard really consistently we haven't heard really any data driven analysis as to why this That's makes kind of what I was thinking.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And then also years ago, I remember on appropriations, we dealt with a huge unfunded liability in the retirement account. Yeah.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Is that We were dead. Fixed it. Is it?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Why you were gone? We're working.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. Took out of that. We're on our way. We had massive we've had actually really good returns. Okay. And we are on our way 2038 is the target date for full funding. Boy, that's awesome. But we we reached compromise, and Jane Ketchov was like I remember sitting in the Danville Inn with Jane Ketchov, or we call those meetings burnt toast summits. She eats her toast burnt, and they know it at the Danville Inn. You know? And she walks in. It's like the queen walked in. It's like but we had great meetings with her, and and she came in and really did a great job with senator White from this committee and and colleagues in the house at a compromise proposal that did result in pretty significant improvement of that situation. That's wonderful. Yeah. It's good. We're on our way. We're not we're quite where we want wanna be yet, but we're getting there.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I just

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Is that underway? I'm sorry.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Still had a question.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Oh, okay.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. Do you wanna go? It's fine. Yeah. I was

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: just gonna say to your theories point, the theory that I've heard that you hadn't expressed was that it was an attempt to purposefully have people leave their jobs

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Oh, yeah. I've heard that too.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: To have more vacancy savings. Think that's the nastiest rumor I've

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: heard Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Is that it is part of a purposeful way to have savings knowing that people will leave their jobs. So the idea that people are leaving their jobs is not a negative. It's actually positive because you get a vacancy savings, which seems to be somewhat relied upon in the creation of this budget. That's the nastiest rumor I've heard. Yeah. But then I also do think we to be positive about it. I think there is a sense that there are managers who want to return to how business was prior to COVID and kind of have a nostalgia for the office culture and the camaraderie of that culture and feel that that has just been zapped from

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: From that. So I do I do think there is a a real honest good reason why there were certain people pushing for it. Whether or not the outcome of that is occurring is different.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: But I do think

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: there are people who genuinely see it as a different management style that they would like to return. So there's a right view.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: It's called yeah. I'm glad to read it because actually that is about a theory that I have heard that it's a what they call a quiet rift.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: It's it's easier politically to try to do to force people to quit than to actually send them a rift notice if you have a bunch of challenges or you wanna reduce the size of government. So that that is one thing. I also think there is and generationally, there is a change in the way we view where COVID, I think, had a major impact impact on it. I I manage several people at the SEA. We all we all work remotely. We're all better and more productive in that in that atmosphere. And that's what I call the edit of the surveillance culture. The idea that the only way you can get an employee to be productive is to micromanage them, to stare at stare them down, to watch every move, and to know what they're doing every single minute. And to me, that is like the least way, productive way of getting people to be people will it's like if you're a leader, people will follow you if they know you treat them, if you treated them well and respect them, and mostly that you trust them. I think a lot of our members communicated some Yes. Similar to what you just said, a feeling of being disrespected by the governor and not they were trustworthy enough to get them through a pandemic in two plugs, but not trustworthy enough to work to work from their kitchen or work from their home, except when we had to have them work from the kitchen in the home. Mhmm. And they did that did that very well. The only other thing I don't wanna just get stuck on this that there is there was the governor, I think, made a mistake. And I'm gonna say I don't wanna think I'm the governor. I like the governor. My job is to hold him accountable for our members. And the legislature's job is to hold him accountable. It's a tough job. He gets paid big bucks, and he signs up for it. You know? So I'm sure he understands this, but the governor went on Vermont public radio, and when he when there was a 100 people lined up to speak to him, their governor, the people who work for the state of Vermont live in Vermont. He is their governor. He said to the host, I wanna speak to everyday Vermonters. I don't wanna hear anymore from state employees. City employees are everyday Vermonters. Everyday Vermonters, they plow your roads, they're mopping floors and cleaning toilets, they're doing they're nurses, They're social workers. They're doing some of the most impossible work that nobody wants to do, and they don't make a ton of money doing it. And so there was also the theory that there was an attempt to divide state employees from from the rest of the taxpayers. So our members asked me to communicate that they are taxpayers and that they're everyday regular employees. I mean, you see my kids out here clean. Clean with a capitol here. He's a state employee. You know? So he must have been well on the court. I almost made it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I got out on conditions. Go ahead.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: So I don't blame on the point there, but corrections is is have a new commissioner of corrections, and I met him once.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Is he the interim still?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I don't know.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I I believe it is.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: He might be.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Believe it's still an interim.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: You know, I had a good meeting with him. I would encourage him to shed central office, to get out of central office and to make decisions in the in the break rooms of the correctional facilities. So, like, for instance, I encouraged him. I think this would be fair to say before he pulled out a special team that was helping cover some shifts in Newport, That's called a cost team. I said, don't listen just to the managers at central office. Go sit in the break room at 05:30 in the morning and again at 04:30 in the afternoon and ask the correctional officers. Because what central office thinks is happening and what these guys know is happening is two different things. Same thing with some of the PEP offices. Did you go talk to them directly and go don't wear a suit. Mhmm. Don't bring your entourage. Don't present your henchmen. Just go down. And I'm gonna and I said to him, that will shock because they're used to the entourage and the dog and pony show and never really getting to talk to the commissioner, but just they see him come in and go. Hasn't taken me up on that advice yet. I've also urged him, and maybe we can work together on this, there are a group of managers in central office who are trained to work in correction facilities, trained at Vermont Taxpayers' Exelis. They could help right now by going to Newport and working some of the overtime shifts there. The commissioner would have to direct them to do that. And that that's an important thing that could happen. The other thing is we've worked very hard, and I know the chair has

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: a bill in support of

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: this issue, our men and women in the probation and parole offices are experiencing workplace violence and workplace safety at unprecedented levels, and they have fought very hard to join the 35 other states that allow them to carry a defensive weapon. And we are hopeful that the governor will direct the commissioner to allow them to carry a defensive weapon only for the purposes of defending their life when they're being shot at, not to do anything else. Right now they have pepper spray and a bulletproof vest, but they're up against automatic weapons. They're up against They're

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: in jail. They aren't.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: In probation and parole operations.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It's all probation.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. So when they're going out to check people, you know, they're often going to places that the police won't go in. But our men our men and women in probation and parole are supposed to go in. Same thing is happening in D. C. F. Family service workers, economic service workers are being asked to go into places, hotel rooms, homes, that law enforcement and corrections won't go in, and they're completely unarmed, untrained, and unprepared for We what they

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: heard this at our meeting in White River. Mhmm.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: It's very dangerous. And we we are we're toying with the lie we've already had one family service worker murdered brutally. We're toying with the lives of of so many of these employees, these everyday Vermonters who are risking their lives to protect children, make sure people have housing, that they're fed, and that the public is kept safe from people who have committed violent crimes or accused of committed violent crimes. Sarah Vyhovsky?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: have two questions. Circling back to the DOC, I wanna be clear. I'm opposed to people working sixteen hour shifts, especially for sixteen hour shifts. But this strikes me as a bit of a cyclical issue where they're working sixteen hour shifts because they don't have enough staff, which creates less staff. And I'm I'm wondering how you see it that we get off that track because there aren't the workers to cover the shifts.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Great question. So first of all, you send the training managers from central office to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That was more of your sense.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: All of us

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: all means all. We're all in this together. Secondly, I think what I would do is heavy incentives for, working on your day off and also heavy incentives for probation and parole and for former corrections staff that have gone through the academy who are now working in AOT or DCF who left DOC mostly because of the sixteen hour shifts. They come in and work, some of the overtime. But you have to spend money to do that. And I'm not asking the legislature to appropriate money. I'm not asking you to do that. But I am asking that the legislature hold the commissioner and the governor who is responsible for running the Department of Corrections accountable for what and a six year crisis that's getting so bad, in particular, in New York. If I were the governor, I'd go to New York, and I'd sit in the break room, and I would talk to those people.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Have you invited him to

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: We've invited him several years ago. We invited the governor to visit their corrections. So he went to the academy.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So why don't you invite him again?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: We will. We we definitely will. But if there's a crisis, then they it makes us wonder if he knows how bad the crisis is because he's been a great crisis leader. COVID and so many things. Where is the crisis leader now? Or in a crisis, you know, does it I know in New Hampshire, they call on the National Guard to help. I'm not sure if that's an answer, but at least they did something. Mhmm. And here, they're just doing very Another area that's really important to our members to talk about is state's attorneys.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I actually had a second question.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Oh, I'm sorry.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: On the state's attorneys. I apologize. It is a little it tracked into what you were previously talking about. And so it was interesting to me to hear the top three were the lowest satisfaction in in the the top three least satisfied. Yes. So it's AOE I mean, DOC doesn't surprise me. And DMV. Where does DCF fall on that list? Because I certainly recall hearing testimony as to why we could not implement Raise the Age, that DCF was basically Yeah. Right. Falling apart at the seams. I'm I'm wondering, has that changed?

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Well, DCF's a huge agency. It's a thousand people, and there's several divisions. Mhmm. So that particular issue was related to the lack of a facility. This is gonna be I have a p t I have PTSD from this discussion because we begged secretary Smith at the time not to close Woodside, to renovate it, change it, reform it, but don't close it. And instead, he closed it, and the alternatives have not materialized. So the real problem, I think, with the raise the age issue is that the burden of what did fall on residential training, residential counselors at Woodside, which at one point, before the administration made some changes, was a nationally recognized award winning program. They made some changes that led to including hiring making some hiring decisions for leadership there that severely changed the atmosphere from one that was reformed more of a rehabilitative atmosphere to one that was more of a correctional atmosphere. So that I think had more to do and has more to do with the fact that family service workers were being called out after after they were working their full shift to go sit with kids who were sometimes violent and not some some is not any fault of their own because they just that being the violence came as their only way of expressing these things. But it it's that our members to be as exhausted as officers battered and bruised all because we don't have a wood siding. And several years have gone by, and the administration's approach to communities has failed, which we said would happen. We said, you will not find another community that will take this facility. And they haven't. Right. The facility they're using now, Marble Valley Regional Correctional Facility, is where our kids are going.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: And so what I heard in testimony, though, when we were having that conversation was not just about lack of a facility. It was an agency or a division that was in complete and utter chaos with no leadership, no support. And I'm wondering if that has changed. I also, there are plenty of places in the world that manage to not have violent children that don't put them in prison. So I just also wanna be very clear that locking children in prison is not the only answer.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Mhmm. It's not that we don't think they should be in prison.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Not even if we call it a children's prison.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. No. We we think we think the facility doesn't have should look very different than what Woodside looked like. But what we had said to that is, you have to tear the building down and rebuild it right there or rebuild it right there, but don't close it down. Don't let these trained residential counselors walk away and lose their jobs because we're gonna lose all that talent. So I I agree with you on on on that part. I would say there is a new commissioner of DCF who has more of a human resources human services background. I don't know much about her. I've only met her I don't even think I've ever met her. I just saw her at a labor management meeting. I I do think some of the things that they have done, they've implemented there, has been somewhat effective, like the CATS team, which is the idea that I presented to Corrections. It's a similar idea, which is to basically say to AHS employees or any state employees, if you're willing to be trained and you would come sit with the youth, we'll pay you to do that in addition to the other job that you have. I think that's a model for corrections. I told the commissioner that, and I would I would encourage him to follow that idea and explore that idea because we certainly need it. But I that's I I think the description that you had, senator, of DCF is wasn't at least in the last in the last legislative session was an accurate description. Chaos was raiding the high end system of care was just really, I think, destroying the agency, and people were leaving in rapid numbers, which then exploded caseloads. It's the same thing as corrections. It's cyclical. State's attorneys, last year, with the in support with supporting the department's request, the SEA tried very hard to get 20 additional positions for state's attorneys. The model program that's been set up in Chittenden County, the reports back from our members said it's massively overburdening the administrative staff and the victim advocate staff

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: As well as the judicial staff because there was no additional staff added to the governor's programs. There was a prosecutor moved from Washington County, which is a resident of Washington County, I'm pretty upset about because our crime thought it was Washington County, that he should be here in Washington County. There was no additional support staff, no additional victim advocates, no additional judicial staff. Some wonder if maybe hiring retired prosecutors to come back like you guys. They hired a retired judge instead of just having one prosecutor plucked from a county and brought up there. I think our members believe that there were no additional resources added to this program. And from their from their perspective, it makes it look like a PR effort and not a real effort. It's having some effects, I think, but it's coming at the cost of our administrative team, which in Chittenden County in particular is feeling a lot of the pressure that drug is being held with. Go on.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I'll turn it away.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you, mister chair. Just to dig a little bit more into that. So I'm confused. I thought we did something last year where we added so is this the We same

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: We've done winter. Last year, we converted nine limited service positions into permanent classifieds.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: And that didn't resolve

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: That kept those nine people from quitting. Okay. But it didn't add the 20 people that we needed.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: So And the 20 was a minimum, We probably could use more than that.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: And okay. Yes. I I agree with you on that. But that is disappointing because I had kinda thought that would have helped alleviate that issue.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. I think it's that you know, it's what's happening is I would encourage the committees to take a look at the public safety. They may be in conjunction with the judiciary and the public safety program. Because what's from our members' perspective, yes, more state troopers have been employed to Church Street. A prosecutor has been assigned and a judge have been assigned to the to the repeat offenders in in Chittenden County. The two things that we haven't done are add more prosecutors and more support staff and and Switch. Somebody's gotta prosecute these folks.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yes.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And the second thing is we haven't hired correctional officers because when we take them off the street, as the public says, where do they go? They go to corrections. They go to probation and parole. Those are the people working the two hour shifts, and that's why our facilities are patent at the brim. So it would be a good opportunity to look at that issue overall and just see, is this really have we done a complete have we really looked at the public safety system in a holistic way?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think you just shared it.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I think that would be important. I'll just go quickly.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Just to tag on that, given I'm very clear, I would need for more prosecutors. Is that something that would be a good job for a task force for the summer? I mean, is that a kind of I mean, that's a big review.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I think that you could do that. I think we're in a little bit of an urgent situation. Right. And so where the case loads are really exploding, I think maybe

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Maybe to new review it.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah. I'm making recommendations to appropriations that they prioritize public safety those public safety physicians.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. Last question. Senator It's actually it's

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: a response to senator Clarkson's question, and I think I I can't for the three years that I have served in the senate, we have started every year with a joint house senate judiciary hearing where we hear from the judiciary and the state's state's attorneys about scope of the problem,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: what they need, and then we

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: promptly ignore it. And so I don't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: think there's a need for a

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: public hearing. I think we know the answer. We actually just need to listen.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And do something about it. Well, we did do something about it, because I remember we added quite a bit two years ago.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: We added one third of what they asked for two And years we did it as limited service. Then last So year we didn't do anything. We simply said, actually these nine positions we added a year ago out of the 18 or 24 you asked for, we're not gonna get rid of them.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That's tough. We've actually heard every single year that I've been on judiciary in the Senate what is needed and what the problem is. So I I don't think there's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a need for a task force. I think

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: that work's been done.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So then what what do we need to make it actually happen?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That is a question for our Yeah. In the the room next door.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I think whatever support the committee could a case that could be built for appropriations as to why that why these investments make sense. I think that would be maybe something the committee could be very helpful is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So maybe we, in conjunction with judiciary too. Well, mister chair.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yes.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So I'm wondering if perhaps you get feedback on what appropriations is expecting of us as a committee this year. I know we had done a letter last year.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yep.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So if we're doing that again, I think we've all already identified that we'd like

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: to cover this in some form. Well, House is asked

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to do that, as you know, in every committee.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yes, so I don't know if we're going to be asked to do that again, but if so, it makes obvious.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Tanya, if I do, one last thing I just to sneak in because I know time is of the essence here. We do have some changes to the to the retirement system that we have asked colleagues to your colleagues to introduce, and a couple of them are really important. One, a bigger one would be to continue to move group G, which is mental health workers and corrections workers, closer to group C, which is law enforcement. And that would be a reduction in the cost to our members. Their contribution rate is much higher for group G, and it would also be a change in the retirement eligibility age. The second is, this is one that's really particularly important for your constituents around, Mr. Chairman, The trainers at the correctional at the, Criminal Justice Training Council

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Have to be law enforcement officers, but those positions are in group f, and law enforcement officers are in group c. And there are no willing law enforcement officers who would leave group c to go to a position that's in group f.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: It is very recent.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: And it was raised to us by the staff at the criminal justice training council in Pittsburgh. And so that would be they would like to be in group c so that there's consistency and that they could fill those positions. Training law enforcement, obviously, is a very important component of public safety. So we would encourage you to take that up. And the last thing that I just would say, this is a lot of it does relate to corrections, but it is across the board. We've had members who are in corrections who have been assaulted or members who have worked in other agencies who have had workplace injuries and who have had to, some within years of reaching full retirement, who have had to make a serious reduction in their retirement, a disability retirement, just much less than a full retirement. No fault of their own, they were assaulted by a correctional officer.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: By a

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: correctional Not a correctional officer. Was assaulted by a It could have been assaulted by a correctional officer. So we would like to have an exception made so that if you are injured on the job or assaulted, because our family service workers, natural resources folks, ESD folks, they get assaulted as well. If you're assaulted and disabled as a result of that assault, that you would get a full retirement and not be punished because somebody assaulted you while you were trying to do your job as a state of the ocean.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So we're gonna have, Jefferson, state of the country in on a Thursday. What you could do, which I think would be helpful for the committee, and you've given us a lot of suggestion, is put a pencil to how much it would cost to get any of this accomplished. Because I'm sure it's not gonna be without some extra funding isn't there now. Yeah.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Vince is happy to pony up. He's got plenty

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: of people.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Has a Actually,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the thing in in conjunction with that is I actually appreciate you typing up that list and getting it to

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: all of us.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Okay. And we also have

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: a nice email follow-up. Yeah. Nice email follow-up.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: We will do that. Okay. Thank you so much.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Hey, Steve. Nice to see you. Mitch, you timed it out perfectly.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Billabuster. Billabuster.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: That was good. Leave it there. I'll do

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We've been

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: through the training. Now he knows. Say, thank you, hello, goodbye.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Bye. So

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: our next witness is, or witnesses, let's just say,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: let's Live ins.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes, From the Secretary of State's office, and Laurie Hibbert will now join us, as well as Jen Poland, is it?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Hi, Jen. And

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: you can grab two If there are two chairs.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, yeah. If not, we go steal them. We're resourceful. Yeah. We're very resourceful this day.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So welcome.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: We'll just for purposes of getting to know each other, I'll go around the table, and we have a new senator on the committee.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And a new committee assistant.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah, nice to

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: meet Senator John Morley from Wallace.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Nice to meet you. Nice to you. Welcome.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And this is Emery Mathias. Yes, sir. We moved over from legislative operations to immediacy.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I'm Lauren Hubert, Deputy Secretary of State, and I have Jen Cohen, the Director of the Office of Professional Regulation. I'll say that again when we're on the record. Are we on the record? Oh, yeah. Oh, good. Thank you so much for having me, and it's really exciting to get to meet your newest member. And wonderful to be back here. You know, it feels like you guys go away and we miss you. Oh, tough. True. We do. We do. And we've done a lot of work in the off session on quite a few issues. I'm here mainly to talk about the Secretary of State priorities for this legislative session.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Do we have those typed up for us to look at?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We did. We filed testimony related to OPR, which is probably the biggest list of priorities, and that's why Jen is here. But outside of OPR, you know, our biggest priorities are to not have an elections bill because it's an election year. So, we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: do know that there is There is a bill, as you know, circulating.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yes. That's on the I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: think it's on Citizens United.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: No. That would probably go to a different committee, but there are There's There's

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: a voter rights act one. Oh,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: the voters rights one.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Right. Yeah. We would we support that bill, but changes to how elections operate is a different thing. Much more difficult for you in a year when you're actually in process already. In process. Yes. So, you know, we are watching the election skills if they come up. But on whole, we really don't want significant changes to election process this year. The Citizens United issue could be complicated for us. We'll have to see how that bill look, what it looks like. And then the Voter Rights Act, we support and think it's a

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: good Right. Good bill, good concept.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Business services, we won't have a bill this year, hopefully, unless something pops up. Bessara, we know that there's conversations about public records. Records. Mine. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Let me split down.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Let me tell you a little

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: bit about the secretary of state's office. We oversee four major divisions of state government elections. That's probably the one you will be most familiar with or are familiar with. Business services. So every business nonprofit in the state needs to register with the secretary of state's office. The office of professional regulation, which is called OPR colloquially, We regulate 54 different professions over a 160 different profession types there. You'll hear a lot more about that that office. And then Vermont State Archives and Records Center, which is in Middlesex, And they help state and local entities maintain their records and store their records appropriately, destroy their records appropriately. And then they have the archives, which are, you know, our most important documents that we wanna keep forever. We have the original constitution constitution there. And if you're ever interested in in a tour of the archives, we love to coordinate that. It was one of our best field trips. Yeah. It's fascinating. Fascinating. So with Vesara and that's called Vesara. And with Vesara, we're aware that there may be some changes to real estate transactions that we're watching because of the digitization of land records that we're working on, and obviously monitoring any changes to public records on hold, which I hear there may be some changes coming with public records. So we'll be watching that. In terms of the big bill, we do need support for elections. We always have historically received additional support during election years out of the general fund. Our federal grants have disappeared essentially. We used to get a million dollars a year. We're now getting a third of that. $2.75 is the small state minimum. And the the threats to our elections haven't changed in terms of foreign actors and domestic actors and the infrastructure that's needed to implement elections across the entire state for both the statewide primary and the general election. So outside I, of what we historically have received this year, we're not anticipating a larger ask.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So your revenue is holding steady?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We are okay for another year, but I we do need to forecast to this body that without additional federal funds coming, we will be in a very different position next year and the year after that. What was the bill that was so lucrative for the elections? Make America with OHABA. Yes. Help Americans Yes. Act. Yes. Yes. Help Americans. So And that that is what has been giving them Right. This A million a year. And we have been using it to implement universal book by mail, to implement our IT systems, to implement tabulators in every community that has over a thousand voters, and the disability access ballot issues. So, it's pretty critical funding for us. And without it, it's really a struggle. We've lost a lot of federal resources in the election space, quite frankly, from that the makes no sense. Right? No. Does not make sense. It is it is challenging, and every state is grappling with it. Yeah. And, you know, the pressure and the the vulnerability of Vermont's election system is the same as it is in California. Because the the same per like, security parameters from an IT perspective need to be around our system as in California. They just have a lot more money and a lot more people. So it's just one of those small state problems that we have, that our infrastructure needs to be the same regardless of the number of people we have. So so money, you know, the elections ask. We created a position last year in our general counsel municipal services division, which has just been transformational. When it went through, it was created as a limited services position. We really need that to become a permanent position in terms of our responsive times on public records requests, on inquiries. It's been dramatic. The person who we've hired is fabulous, and we need that position for the long term. So we're gonna be asking for that and seeking another position in our business services division as well. We that is a division with five people who are primarily responsible. It's a division of six, but five people responsible for all of the filings and one director. The volume is just not sustainable. So, in terms of positions, making sure that we get that limited services to permanent and then one position. And then OPR, we have a lot of objectives at OPR. Some of them you've heard quite a bit about. Some of them are old friends. Our old friends still

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: we need to continue to work on it.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. We we don't we like to make new friends, but keep the old. Right? And and maybe get them Finished. Finished. Finished. I think the finished one.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Opt on the trip.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That is one of our old friends. Yes. But as I mentioned, the Office of Professional Regulation, our core focus is to protect the public. So we license professionals, everyone from cosmetologists to engineers, real estate to dentists. It's really a diverse group of professions, and the reason why we regulate professions as a state is that the public needs to be protected from that profession. Meaning, if that profession, if the person is not qualified, they can do substantial harm.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yes. I've actually dealt with OPR some

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Oh, good. Hopefully, it was okay. No. Okay. Well, shoot. How can I thought? It was OPR,

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: but finally, it finally worked out. We lost a wastewater treatment operator. And so then we we sent them to school, and so then they passed the exams, and we couldn't get their license at OPR. We really, really struggled with that. It took months.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I think there was an issue there for a while. I'd have to look into No.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. No. No. It's been a little bit now, but Well Because we're being mandated by the state for them have this, and then we couldn't get it from the state.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: And they had passed their exam.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Yeah. Because they they take tests. It's contracting entity, that does this now. And I don't know where they're from, but they come to Burlington once

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: a

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: month or

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: something like

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that. Oh, they administer the test? Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: And so there was a lot of hang ups just dealing with the the wastewater spray thing.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I I was familiar with that issue, but not enough

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: to be. No. No. No. I just didn't know if you knew it was.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yep. No. We did. So we took over wastewater treatment from

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Correct.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: From BEC. Correct. And in that transition, several pebbles got turned over that we had to address. It's interesting, whenever we start a new profession or start regulating the profession within OPR, we learn a lot. I think those DEC professions was one of them. And there were some hurdles. And honestly, the requirements for wastewater treatment are confusing and are difficult to explain and also difficult to do. So probably with some good reason, but

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: No. And as it all got resolved, I just didn't know if you guys

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. I was director probably at that time, because I previously was the director of Office of Professional Regulation, so I was very familiar with that issue. But but I I also recognize that it creates when there is a barrier within our office, whether it's in elections, the SARA, business services, or OPR, it creates real world implications for people. So since you're new, if you ever have a constituent who is having an issue, please let me know. I do really make a very concerted effort to try and smooth over the issue or understand the issue so that you can talk about the issue either with other legislators if there's a legislative fix or with your constituents so they can understand. From the village board.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So I understand.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And a former legislator. We were in the house together.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Oh, well, good. Well, I'm available for those purposes if Hopefully need not, but so this session, we're really excited to move forward with the OPR agenda, and there's three main themes, which are creating new professional pathways, removing unnecessary regulatory barriers Nice. And strengthening public protection. That's really our core focus,

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: and I'm gonna let Jen talk about those themes. And hello. Jen Colon, director of OPR. That's a that's a new thing since this summer. Previously, when I was with you all last year, was general counsel.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So That's good. We're excited.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: Update. And we do have our new general counsel with us. This is Emily R. So you'll be seeing Emily's thumb this session as well, and we're very fortunate to have her. She came from Department of Corrections.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: very fortunate, very fortunate to have her expertise at OPR.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Were you in the general counsel's office at

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, the first six years and then in their litigation unit for twelve years before that.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: She knows a lot.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We have

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: seen a lot about OPR, no.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: And we're in a very fortunate position to have them both in their respective positions. So,

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: first theme for the year, creating new professional pathways. We spent a lot of time with y'all last session talking about early childhood educators, and that's an old friend that's back this year. And hopefully, we can move that across the the finish line. So that early childhood educator is gonna be a standalone bill, and it would create individual licensure credentials for early childhood educators who are working in non public settings, and those settings are regulated by the child development division. So these are educators who are working in family childcare homes, and they're working at the center based facilities in in in those private settings. So But we already

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: have a bill. Yeah. So what has happened is We've been rewriting it. We have been because we have to because Yep. Because you voted on it on the senate floor, we needed a new bill because of the senate rules. So we have to have a new bill number, and it's being started. My understanding is it's being started in Senate Health and Welfare and will come here. And I don't know I don't know the logistics of that. Why? I think that was the path that the Pro Tem and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well, we're the ones who did work on it. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I guess we're a bit maybe, mister chair, maybe we table this discussion for this particular logistics because we do I think we may not have fully communicated or understood what's going on with that. Yeah. I don't know where because I didn't know who

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: See, I had heard it was gonna start in the house.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. There's a lot

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We of can absolutely talk about it, but my understanding is because it was voted the the issue in full substance of s one nineteen was voted out of the senate that it can't but then didn't didn't go anywhere Yeah. And never became there's not a bill anymore because the other because it was joined with the OPR bill, which was passed.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Right.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That now that language is sort of an orphan. And because of that, it's orphan. Because of its orphan status, it needs to have a new bill. So we worked on a new bill with Senator Lyons.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Ah, because anyway,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: that's what we're legislate a challenge to. Okay. And it's policy is substantially the same. Yeah. Right. As if they didn't pass it out of their we didn't. Correct. And so the thought was if it went through a new committee first, that it would be by senate rules seen as more different than s one nineteen. Well, we wish you luck, I guess.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: That's kind of our that would be my take. Like, I I I'm surprised to hear this based on Yeah. Me too. I think I'm a little hurt in a way that we were not given information about this seeing that we spent

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Or for a long time. Yeah. We're not gonna do it together.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. But that's that's a that's a maybe a private discussion. Publicly, I would say we are at least fully supportive I at least out the Windsor County Delegation. Yeah. And I wish you luck in health and welfare on

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: this And and we hope that you will help us. And Okay. I believe that Senator Lyons is gonna seek your support on that bill. Okay. And

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Is there anything different about it?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: In terms of policy, no. Some wording, yes, but policy, it's exactly

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: There's still, I remember, eight year Yes.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: So you'll hear about this in the

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: morning. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Okay. So we still I count on you to be our secret weapon here, John.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: And I imagine it would come here too. I think it would be exclusively heard there. I think it would come here too. I just

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: yeah. They were the parents of it. I think that would be good. Senator Vyhovsky.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Was the bill voted down in the house? I'm confused. It was separated. It was pulled apart.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: The bill was pulled apart.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: I don't think it ever went to that.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: It did. Yeah. It did. So so the process was it was combined with the OPR bill here. Right. Then the senate voted on the the whole package. Then it went to the house. The house did not have time to talk about early childhood education because it was not part of their bill that came over here. And so in order to get the OPR bill passed, early childhood education was cut on the house floor. And so the senate has voted on the language and the house did not. And and there was not a house bill, corresponding house bill that moved on the house.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: And when you ask why you need corresponding bills That is why.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: That is And why can't the house committee of jurisdiction put in a mini bill and deal with it?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Because it's still alive. Mean, it's still you're you're you're right. It's an interesting quest

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I I don't I I have to confess. I'm not an expert on the Senate I just was told this is what needed to happen. Okay. Great. And it will become

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: I want the you

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: want the law with our interest. The bill that the same bill cannot be introduced twice in the same biennium if it has already made. Like so I don't even like but that's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that's fine. I I can talk to Bloomer and figure out what's happening. Well, and and Betsy Ann, because quite honestly, the challenge happened in this.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right. But my understanding is introducing the exact same language that we have already acted on is against senate rules.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Well Right. And they incorporated it in some of the challenges. So that's which has been changed.

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Right. If you've changed a few words, that doesn't constitute changing the policy. You've said the policy is exactly the same. My understanding is that is against Senate rules, but I can take that up your jaw.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Okay, well, moving on to the

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: next thing on the OPRs and legislative agenda. Sorry for just tossing out that controversy first thing I thought. So in the dental profession, we're gonna be moving forward a new limited scope academic dental license for dental faculty. So we heard the good news that there's

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: a dental school that wants to open a

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: satellite location in Vermont, which is fantastic. We've got this path.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Dental therapy path.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: No, this isn't dental therapy. This is for dental faculty. This is for folks who are dentists probably in other jurisdictions, and they're going to come to Vermont. They're going to be faculty at a school. So we're giving them we'd we'd like to offer a limited scope license for dental faculty at no cost. Great. To encourage that because we're so excited to have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: a dental school here in Vermont. We need it. Sort of reciprocal licensing in a way.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: Yes. So it allows those practitioners to come in, teach as faculty, and work in a dental clinic associated with the school that's providing low and no cost dental services. Those folks would be overseen in that dental clinic by Vermont licensed dentists. So that's an exciting thing that we're doing. Next in psychology, and this is an old friend, but I don't think y'all saw this friend last year. We have a or there's going to be a bill. It's not part of the OKR bill. It's going be a standalone bill. It's a specialty to expand the scope of practice for doctorate level psychologists to be able to prescribe mental health medications for mental health treatment, and those folks, as part of their getting a specialty license, would have to get special education, training, experience to be able to, be qualified for that. So that that bill did pass the House last year, and it's gonna be starting in the Senate this year.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I think that's H two thirty seven. Oh, okay. Okay.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: And that is with us or in? Senate Health and Welfare.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: Oh, okay. Then we have our friends optometry as well, so that also was introduced last year in the Senate. That's gonna move forward this year in the House. That's a bill that expands the scope of practice for specially trained optometrists to be able to perform specified surgical procedures and injection procedures. And I hope I won't have to pronounce those in front of this committee, but the bill does contain all the different procedures they can do and that specialized training. And what's different about the agreement between the ophthalmologists and the optometrists? How are we going to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: make that move forward?

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: That's a great question and I don't really know the answer to that other than this is a bill that we support for optometrists because we worked with those optometry folks and firmly believe through our lens of public protection that the training, education, and experience that they have to have is adequate for public protection. And we did we did do a lot

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of work with the optometrist group. Senator White?

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Thank you, mister chair. So we passed s 64 last year out of this committee. Yes. It's in health and welfare. It's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: stuck in here.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: But you had just said that it's starting in the house?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I I thought it was,

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: but I could be mistaken about that. I thought it passed the senate last year,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: but I thought we it was gonna

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: be I think it by still and overwhelming. Okay.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So, again saying it's stuck. You figured. I'll get about it. I I my understanding is that it's gonna be unstuck, but it it we we ran out of time.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I'm barley as our on a sticker. You're gonna be our Goo Gone person. Yeah. I was gonna take Goo Gone.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Remember this is my friend.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. Well, why are charging

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: me with a lot of it?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: My understanding is that there it was really a timing issue because there's a lot of testimony that needs to be taken on this. It was a run out of the I understood the timing issue.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: That seems simpler. Speaking of timing, I just wanna, we're doing HGO at 03:00, so I'm gonna kind of rush through this a little bit. Happy to have your questions. It won't be the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: first time the house has had to wait

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: for us. Yes. And and certainly, they can still still wait for us for a few minutes. Our next theme of removing unnecessary regulatory barriers, along those lines in the profession of pharmacy, we are planning to remove a requirement that vaccines that are prescribed by pharmacists and administered by pharmacy professionals, that those vaccines are limited to vaccines recommended by the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. That's the body Still. That was disbanded Yeah. Over the summer, late summer, I think, by the federal government, and then they put new members into that body. This legislation would you're gonna see a bill from Department of Health along the same lines. This would basically be allowing pharmacists to prescribe and pharmacy professionals to administer vaccines that the Vermont Department of Health Commissioner approves based upon

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: recommendations from various bodies. Yeah, another pharmacy ask, I believe, that is coming down.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Sure there is. There's always a pharmacy ask.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: There's a lot

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: of pharmacy ask.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: But when we expanded the scope of practice for pharmacists, we really hinged it on ACIP, thinking that it was gonna remain consistent, and it just hasn't remained consistent. So this is a response to that inconsistency. ACIP, remind me what that is. That's the

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: Advisory Committee on Indian Educational Practices. It's in the CDC.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Right. Yes. Anything in the CDC now, sadly, is just completely suspect. Then,

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: also along the lines of removing unnecessary regulatory barriers in funeral services, the OPR bill is going to include services such as cremation and natural organic reduction in the definition of the practice of funeral services, so that Oh, services, like

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: scripture and organ music. Which sounds- That's right. Probably service that way.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Was like, oh.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: So, was that- The anomaly has to be solved. The reason that we're doing that is because there was some confusion among licensed funeral directors, whether those things felt within the scope of what they could do, so we're clarifying the definitions so that they don't have to get another license to be able to do And those then in midwives, we're going we're gonna be seeking authority to reduce current practice data reporting requirements. Midwives have to report data on every single birth that they attend, and it's it's a lot of data. They have to do that as part of their renewal right now every two years. So for every bird, every two years, they have to give us a lot of information. We'd like to be able to change those requirements by rule. A lot. And to reduce the to reduce the barrier to reduce the burden on midwives.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We we wanna know that information.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, we we do wanna know every birth that they attend, and the Department of Health knows that. They're receiving

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Oh, so it's duplicative.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: It's duplicative. And That's different. And we have a separate requirement that if there's any adverse outcome, we are required to receive it. So but if it's a totally typical birth, they're having to create data for us and Department of Health, And quite frankly, people aren't using it in It's any from when midwives were originally licensed, a requirement that was required because people were really unsure of the safety and wanted a lot of data. Well, that just hasn't been the problem and that would that data doesn't appear

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: to be accurate. That data from midwife births recorded? It's They have to do it with the department. Yes. Yes. They Just not with you.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So, put with you. And

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: then in terms of strengthening public protection, we're going to be seeking to regulate massage establishments. Right now we regulate massage therapists and other body work professionals, but this year, the legislation will be including regulating massage establishments through registration credentials that allows for inspection and requires the display of credentials of individuals working in the establishments. That's kind of a tool in the tool belt to fight human trafficking. We've done this every year for the last five years, I feel like.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: This is different, though. This is like a STARS program for them.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. This is like a establishment. It's like for their business, if I'm looking at the difference.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: It we've done individualized registration, but we've never done business registration.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: So this is a business registration.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: And and it is a change in the position of OPR. When we did our sunrise, we did not recommend registration of the business, but since we have been regulating massage therapy, we have seen and you probably remember from last year, our registry of complaints where you could see all of the things that were complained about. And, you know Which was fascinating. It is. It's heartbreakingly fascinating. And horrifying. Yes. Horrifyingly heartbreaking. I don't know the right word, but it's it's that. And about a third of our complaints are related to human trafficking, and about third are related to sexual misconduct. Yeah. That's And so we do think that registration of the business, as director Cohen just said, would be a tool for law enforcement and for our office to be able to better investigate And

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: some consumers. And So if you know yeah. So let me also

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I have a question about that. Then once you're done, I might have a broader question. If someone was a private practice, they have to do both registrations, the individual and the business? Solo practitioners will not have to register a business. They're going to be,

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: We gave them an exception. Is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that a good thing?

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Why do think so? Because it's duplicative if you're a registered Yeah. Registered. Have a good relationship.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I wanna know if you're gonna have a star. I mean, I wanna know that that establishment is got a star or two stars or three stars or

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: four stars. We're we're not doing stars on the business. Okay. But

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: it's a

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: it's a reg Too bad.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It and it's very useful for consumers.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: It is. Yeah. But but if there's if there's a business that is registered with us who is operating and is really doing human trafficking as opposed to legitimate massage services, then we'll be able to suspend or revoke or condition that business. And that's a really powerful test True. We currently don't have. And this legislation gives us the authority to inspect that business, to walk in, and we don't currently have that as firmly cemented as we would like it to be from a fourth amendment standpoint. So it's just it's it's going to add to the toolbox. We know that human trafficking is a problem here. We've been growing. And we've known it for long

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: time. Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah. And just to be clear, by stars, I meant how childcare facilities have the stars. No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: No. I like I like stars.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Very unusual from a consumer point

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: of view to know how good the how good the practice is.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: Don't think OPR is in the habit of reviewing business. Not sure she's touching your quads. We

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: always say, Oak care is the floor, not the ceiling. So, what are the minimum standards that somebody has to abide by to provide safe and appropriate care.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So, there'll be no Yelp reviews page. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: With John being new to this, you might just review the three levels at which you license.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: Right. A bridge that always. Credentials, that's right. So, registration, and that's what's proposed for massage establishments. Registration requires no qualifications, but everybody who's doing professional activity has to register with us. That enables us to take enforcement action and remove people from the marketplace if they engage in bad fondness, like sexual stuff in massage establishments. We have certification. Certification is voluntary, but it does have requirements, like qualifications. So if you want to call yourself a certified dietitian, you have to meet certain competency requirements, and we will give you that state certification so that you can hold yourself out in the marketplace as having specialized knowledge. Then we have licensure, which is a mandatory thing for people doing that professional activity, and that requires qualifications that often include education, experience, examination, that sort of thing. So those are the three levels that we use to regulate and keep your monitors safe. And those discussions are very robust in this committee. So a couple more a couple more points on strengthening public protection. In our unprofessional conduct statutes, we have a mandatory reporting requirement that healthcare facilities have to file a report with OPR if they have a licensee whose whose ability practice, to practice within that facility has been curtailed for some reason. In other words, if your privileges are being removed by your facility, that facility needs to report it to us. We're just clarifying the language in there because there's a double negative in the statute that makes it seem a

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: little

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: unclear when those facilities have to do that. We're clarifying that. Then the last thing is we want authority to establish through rulemaking a voluntary alternative to discipline program. This is a program we have this type of program in one profession, that's nursing. Essentially, it's got two arms. One is if someone has a substance use disorder, they want to engage in monitoring to ensure that their practice isn't impacted, you know, their professional practice isn't impacted, they can kind of self report to OPR voluntarily and engage in a program whereby we are connected with their drug testing facilities, so we know that they're having drug tests, They have to have an evaluation for substance use. Again,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: that's

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: a voluntary program, but what it does is it encourages professionals to seek help before it becomes a practice problem. So if you have complaints against you, you're not eligible. This is for somebody who's recognizing they have a problem and they don't want it to impact their practice, and we can have that kind of assistance to them. And then the other thing is, in this alternative to discipline program, if someone hasn't had practice deficiencies that have resulted in a complaint, but they are very minor, and it's something that could be remediated through additional education, taking a class. It gives us the ability to refer those cases to a program so that they get that education, but they don't necessarily have a permanent ding against their license. It just gives us another tool in our tool belt to make sure that Vermonters are safe from kind of professionals that make mistakes or have practice issues. So we're really excited about those efforts, and that's it from OPR.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So, Ollie.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: He may have been put on

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: the draw, but so I apologize. I've used the restroom right at the beginning, so you may have talked about this. But I do think that we're going to discuss potentially voting and elections this year. Yes. And I know that that traditionally has been like a a no go because we I think rightly so. We don't wanna change something right before an election and cause

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Any confusion. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or reflections on that statement here.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We're aware of two issues that are percolating. One related to campaign finance and one related to the Voter Rights Act. Yeah. We support the Voter Rights Act bill and moving this session because it doesn't change this the substance of how we conduct elections. Okay. And that's really important. The campaign finance one, we haven't seen the final language and we don't know the ramifications of that. So we need to understand that a bit better. You know, changing how and it may be an an effective date issue. It may be I just don't know. We haven't seen it. So

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Really? I like what you said, but it doesn't the difference might be that it's not changing your election electioneering.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Right. A process. The operationalization of them. Right. That makes

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: So as I said and maybe we should sit down outside. Think it's myself and senator Watson that are looking at that. But it actually likely will not come to this committee because it's not a campaign finance issue. It's a regulation corporations issue. Oh, okay. Well, that that is us too. So Yes. Yes. I recognize that, but it- That

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: would end up with me.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I know. So maybe you should join the conversation as

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: well, You should. Okay. Know you're-

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I'm forward to it.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Blake, getting upstairs.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I actually still had a question. Sure. That was about the mental health workforce report that last year we heard we would be dealing with this year, but was not in your presentation.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. That's because as we started to grapple with that, it's a huge statutory lift. It's been we're worried that it would take more than one year, one session. And we have just hired an executive officer for mental health that took a while to create the position, to hire the position, to recruit for the position. She's starting through February. In February. And so we didn't wanna start that work without her. And it is really a a big bill. We're gonna be looking for sponsors on that. But it and we'll start it on both sides. But it's a huge revision of all of the mental health statutes, and it did not seem like we were gonna be able to get it through all of the process this session. And so given that, we thought it would be better to start it next session. We are also doing a lot of engagement with all of our mental health boards and reaching out to the Department of Mental Health. There's also some stakeholder engagement that we didn't feel like was fully ripe before we pushed the legislative agenda. So that's the why. We're happy to talk about it more and what we're thinking. It is a very big priority for OPR to get that done. I would say next session that is the priority. Unless ECE doesn't go anywhere, in which case that will be our other priority. But mental health reorganization is of critical importance from our perspective, both really in the workforce, it's desperately needed. But also within our office, sort of the complicated structure creates problems for us. And we'd like to streamline quite a few things and create some options for people who didn't have a degree that was perfect in the current requirements, some abilities for them to make up those deficiencies. We just don't have that flexibility right now, and it's holding people back from being able to provide care. So, a follow-up to that, because

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: sure I, it comes as no surprise to you, but it's a huge priority for me as well. I believe that we are doing that

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: because of your bill. You in fact are. Are

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: there any because I have actually now read, I don't remember if it was '87 or '93, like very long report. And I wonder if from your perspective there are any sort of lower hanging fruit that we could pick off this year to start to make some of the moves in that direction. I'll have to talk to the team

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: and see that. I don't have an answer for you all. That's all. But we've been seeing it as a package. I'll tell you candidly, we've been seeing it as package, but that doesn't necessarily have to remain true. And we have been making changes already that don't require legislative change, or rule changes as a response to legislative change. Recognize that there's a lot to do in that space. Thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Thanks Laura. Thank you, John.

[Jennifer Colón (Director, Office of Professional Regulation)]: Thanks so much. You so much. And you're going

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: to send those to I hope, now? All those priorities. Yes. They're in. Okay. Great. Thanks. And I'm in conference. Good to see you.

[Sen. Rebecca "Becca" White (Member)]: Yeah, we'll chat.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Anything else, committee?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: I just feel like this weather front is just coming up my head. Forgot. Yeah. Alright. It's a big day. I'm gonna cry. It was all just the almost weather front. I mean, we're getting four inches. Possibly.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I thought it was gonna be, like, 45 degrees.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: We're not getting any snow. Yeah. No. We're supposed to get four inches tonight, aren't we, Justin? Nobody created.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I wish you saw.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: Thank you, Justin.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That's what

[Steve Howard (Executive Director, VSEA)]: I thought.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: That's what I saw too. That's what Vermont Public told me this morning. Oh.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky (Vice Chair)]: I think Vermont Public was lying to you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: It never lost. Pushed them live. Of course they weren't.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: Okay. That's Don't forget we will not meet tomorrow. I'm assuming that the governor's speech will go an hour, so At least, given all the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Member)]: things we have to discuss.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Chair)]: So we'll adjourn for the day, we'll see all of you Thursday.