Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Real life. We are live. This is once again the Convenient Conference of eighty nine forty nine, the yield bill, and that's at least you said, John, we're not gonna respond. We did. John has a new draft. New draft. He can share it and pop it through it. Again, I would post it already. Yeah. Thank you. And preface with a few things. It really does feel like we're getting closer to each other here. Thank you. We extended out the date on the limit on tuition growth to match the fact that we were extending out the other day. We did not make it permanent, frankly, just because it was gonna be a really heavy drafting lift. Okay. And so we present in session law out to 2035. That is a similar date to a lot of things that we've put sort of that's a date that we've picked for quite a few things Yeah. Around this transition that sort of got further out that's not forever. And given that our goal is to really across this is to move towards the foundation formula amount, and everyone's sort of coming down towards that. We thought a lower gross number was more appropriate, and so we're coming back to you with NEPA again. But liked the sort of language that you had for describing who it applies to. Thank you for that. Okay. And still have some concerns about the continuing to go down to going all the way down to one twelve in these years that were not But I hope that I don't think we're there. I think we'll be on the foundation formula then. And so threatening threatening with this unknown future feels, to us at this point, ill advised. So that's where we are right now. John can show you the language. Okay. Did I miss anything?

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: I think you're good. We worked through some of the mechanics of trying to figure out looking at the actual tuition paid versus announced tuition effectively does the same thing, but it does allow for the credits and the true up at the end of the year. So positive side. And it's

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: just like, it's much cleaner language, the language you gave us in general.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Let's see what this looks like. I'm not sure I quite understand what you guys were talking about.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Let's see if I could see what it is. Great.

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: John Gray, any opposites that council? I think I have it's still in the same form that you saw previously, so I'm not gonna run through too much of this. I'm just gonna turn to the highlight of the piece. You can see the excess penny thresholds here, but it sounds like this is still subject to figuring out the out years. So the real piece we need to look at tuition release, which is the it's framed right in a similar construct. The differences are it doesn't apply to just FY 2829, it's '28 through 2035. And then instead of comparing or allowing for an increase based on the change in statewide average per pupil spending, it's instead capped at the annual change in net levels.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Sorry. The

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: other question I have for I have a question for you is outside of this section, so I'll be able to hold it. But unless you have if you have anything you wanna say about this section, I'll wait before I move out of the section.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: So do the is there a corresponding language that restricts the school district spending increases to netball?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: School districts are capped with the excess spending pressures. No. School districts can send whatever they want. Well, they're limited by the excess spending. No. They're not. I mean, you know what I mean now.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: They're not. They can spend whatever they want. Right? So, again, we're gonna say that schools that receive tuition are withholding from that, but we wanna be fair and consistent. We'd say that all school districts spending is tied to that bucket. But that's not what we're doing.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: No. What we're trying to do here is find a tool for cost containment for the districts, especially for the districts that are managing the new much lower excess spending thresholds. And there's the the weaving of the excess spending. I think the concern is that they might pass that downward pressure on to the tuition and school. And so that's what we're hoping to prevent with this. Right. Okay. So the question is, is NIPA the right Yes. No. Yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Not question for.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: No. Think this is not You think this is too

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: I don't care what it is. Okay. But it needs to be consistent across the education spectrum.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: It was two yeah. This was, like, 12% that we got the NIPA numbers.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Yeah. I mean, do you wanna say every district, every receiving school is subject to HIPAA?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: All in all. Thanks. The other thing I just wanted to talk about, which I don't think we've had a very, like, robust conversation about, and it's not part of our proposal. Just wanted because it's still in our jobs sort of drafting this back and forth. Okay. We had structured the new excess spending threshold as a percentage of the foundation formula. You all decided to structure it at the existing excess spending threshold. I just you I just wanna clarify. You think that that's that our construct is too confusing at this moment. Yeah. It would be something new schools have to figure out, and then they have to explain to the public Okay. Why it's different, and public doesn't understand any of this anyway. Mhmm. And we thought sort of to some degree that the new construct is actually, like, simpler and easier to understand. Yeah. But it's certainly not that anyone's dying of. Yeah. Okay. Just wanna clarify that. So we're down to what do we use that's not NIPA that prevents pushing downward pressure on just sendings. And we're concerned about not we're concerned about the tail going out too far on the excess cutting threshold because we can't it out. We'd like to stop at 2030 with the decrease and say, this is the year of the foundation for the

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: What if this is the year of the foundation?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Then we're gonna have a whole lot of there's a lot of work to do. That that will be the least of it. I'll probably send it out to '31 or '32 with the provision only if Foundation for a friend has to go to the.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Talking about just the tuition, the part talking about tuition?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: No. I'm thinking about exits and the spending. So I can keep on so I guess the question is, is it gonna keep on going down until 2031, or is it just gonna keep on going till 2031? Well, I think the problem is everyone enchants that it will go till it hits the level of the foundation formula. The question is what is that level? Because we won't know until we get closer to it. If inflation and cost of school busing goes since the roof

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: and even

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: school, we're in a whole different ballgame.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: 105 is the average state of Washington. Average district of all the time. And it's inflation adjusted.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I'm seeing a lot of parity if we will look at the EST slope to track with when we would cap the tuition amount so those time frames that if we're looking at it three year window or four year window just to match those two things if they and to your point. But my question is if we do do something like that, what what does the ST default to at the end of the four years? Are we gonna go back to current law one eighteen?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: No. It would stay at one. 14. 14. Unless we change it. Yeah. Unless we change it. The future legislatures.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yes. Did that end your new proposal, those numbers?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Did it say the one fourteen? No. It can be implemented.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: 15.5, 14.514 in perpetuity. Mhmm. And then the tuition thing would just be for the three year slide.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Goes to 2035 because that seems like a good date because having a go in perpetuity was just a lot of drafting, and 2035 seemed far enough out that we're getting a tail. And we will be in the It will be in the Like, it all goes away when we get the foundation formula. And your which Both provisions are repealed when we get the So foundation they do both need to be on the same Mhmm. Time frame because they both will be repealed Yeah. When we hit. So you've got the tuition going to $20.35. Mhmm. You wanna take it down 15.5 next year, which is 28, 29 to 13. We'd like to stay at $1.14 in perpetuity, well And tell us about New Mexico. Enacted.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: And until the next legislature changes it.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So if we go to 01/2014, And just say if the foundation probably isn't in place, we go with one twelve, and we need to evaluate that one. So what we were talking about is we would stay at 114 because the foundation formula wasn't for that phase, but you're saying that you would like to go on 12. Well, I think some other things might. One

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: thirteen's a very

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: unlucky number, so I may jinx it

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: so that it won't

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Okay. So we've got so we'll think about onethirteenth, and you'll think about NEPA? We'll think about NEPA. Okay. Or something else. NEPA's pretty Mhmm. The time. I mean, it's you know, with gas prices, I imagine NEPA's about to go up, but who knows? Yeah. Well, maple will go up. Yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Okay. And to your point, Scott, you had said that school districts won't be held to the same limitation on what they spend because they couldn't increase their budget except that they have excess spending threshold. They can spend whatever they want. Yes, but And then the excess spending threshold. So We're using this as a way to really reduce spending. That's the whole purpose of it, right? So in theory, all the schools are going to then look at how they're spreading their spending so they don't incur them as a spending. If they do, will show up in the constructive leading opportunity.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: As the pressure goes down, then they spend Yeah. They're gonna spend months. Well That'll show up. Go down. And it's Well, I understand why you're watching this, sir. Yes. Connected to every

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: I mean, if if they don't, they continue to spend like this, then it goes with them. If they slow down, then it goes with that goes with that too. It just goes with it just goes wherever the group goes.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: All of this is based on the theory that by putting financial consequences on going higher will deter people from going higher. We might find out that we're wrong and that we're back to square one, but right now we're just trying to find a way. I think ECA is pretty tight intuitions. Is. I

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: mean, we've lived with everybody else. Is that ECA treatment?

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Is there a similar construct to the EST that we could apply to this where it would be 100 and whatever the 12% of previous year spending which also adjust for NIFA?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So So another way that's more tied to existing spending and less sort of outside of the educational world would be the ed spending's change rather than the per pupil spending change. The bed spending goes up 5%. They could go

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: up That's the five guy. Yes.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: That's up If it goes down to, they have to go down to two.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: I like

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: that. I'm just negotiating right for my position. Okay. There's that The fact that the schools that do not operate all grades, and we did the end of this tuition issue. But it'd still be tuitioning out. It's just that the the tuition the schools that you wish to can charge more. Yeah. Well, just so you So you can still keep that. I thought you were trying to come up with one single process that related to fully operating districts and not fully operating.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Remember the Sacro had spending increase, not the

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: individual district had spending increase.

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Is that right?

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Yes. Yeah. I mean, in the fully non operating school district, they're going to, their tuitions are gonna be set by all those receiving schools. Right. It's like they are now, and they're going to request a non employee from the education fund to make sure they cover all those tuitions. There's no difference than what it is now, no different. Now, that's pre foundation. All we're doing is controlling the tuition.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Whereas foundation goes in, they can only get foundation. Right, right. Plus, yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: It would work just like it does have what happens. Those tuition rates are, there's a control room. Martine, if we can ask JFO about what the average or what the change in Education spending is. Education spending year to year. I imagine those numbers are nearly available.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah. Julia Richter, JFO. I'm assuming you're asking right now.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Yeah. What was expected to be this year?

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: 3.8%. Or sorry, 4.2%.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: That was 2.5. '26 to '27.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah. Let me double check that that's the final the final budget numbers. It's in the education fund outlook. I just need to pull that up.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: This one is 3.8. You're saying it's 4.2. 3.8 is average tax.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah. Give me one it was give me one second. So the average education spending increase from FY '26 to FY '27 is 3.8.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: So we must average.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. What do you mean by average?

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Or maybe I misspoke. I'm I'm quite tired. The education spending increase the total educational spending increase in Vermont from f y twenty six to FY twenty seven is estimated to be 3.8%.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: So that's wrong. Oh, okay. Yeah. 3.8. Really sorry. So the tax rate was actually 3.9. Yes. Three point

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. 3.8. Sorry. Is that was

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: that a figure before in the tax rate increase? Was that previously 3.8? Can you give us

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: So the reason that we're all Yeah. Were everyone is right. Super.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: So good.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: When it was in when we were in senate finance, it was an average increase of 4.2% with an average bill

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: change of 3.8%.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: And then with the updated information, and now we have an average or a total spending increase of 3.8% and an average bill change of 3.5%.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: So when you do the final education outlook after all the budgets are in, you'll be able to say what that increase is, and then that would be the maximum tuition increase in all the 35 schools.

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: You see that you can

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: see that on line each of the edify. So

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: in this construct, this year tuition increases cannot go above 3.8%. Next year's tuition increases. Yeah. That's the reason they're spending. They would have to decrease their tuition.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Yep.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I do not. Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: And just for one more data point, do you know what is '25 to '26?

[Julia Richter (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yes. From '25 to '26, the education spending grew by 5.5.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. So it sounds like that inflator is good for you? Unofficially? Yeah. Okay. That's fine. Okay. And so then it seems like all that's left is the tail. The tail.

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Sorry, can I just confirm what you guys disagree to? Yeah, sure.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I mean, you have to.

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, so you're saying for that period, mid-twenty eight through February, tuition paid to a public or approved at the time of receiving school shall increase from the prior year by more than the relative percentage change increase in statewide education spending between the previous fiscal year and the fiscal year preceding that? Yes. Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: I'm only willing to go as long as the tail is for the excess expenditure.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So that's '35.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: We wanna do an excess spending increase after 35, and that's everything. We wanna do 32, we do 32, 32, whatever. So I imagine.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. And so And then you were saying go to 13% for the tail.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Future legislators can lower the bar.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay, great.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Can

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: you draft that as a report?

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Did you just agree to something?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: We have tentatively agreed to something and we need to confirm.

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, okay. I can track,

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: I'd like to see the progression of what it looks like right now. Okay.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Can we do one more break and then get together again? So I think

[John Gray (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Would would you like us to be a

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: bit before we come in? Yes. That would be great.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Alright. What time would you like to

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I've got the other thing at 07:30.

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: Five for eight.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Let's say

[Senator Randy Brock (Member)]: can

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: we take eighty minutes so I can