Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Not like it. Alright. We are live. This is Senate Finance. This is May 8, my sister's birthday. And today, we are going no, this is Thursday. No, it's May 7. We're gonna take up H578, penalties and procedures for animal cruelty offense. Are you the reporter, sponsor, do you

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: want to We sponsor, oh no, I don't, I can if you want, but I was just here.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Well, don't you tell us why? Oh, okay. Put the bill up. All righty. And then we will.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: Wow, even your witness chairs are nice there.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Thanks, I have one. I don't know who else in this committee had a bad back, I inherited Claire Ayers.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: Well, for the record, representative Emily Chittenden, Chittenden, for the record, my birthday is tomorrow, so I share that with your sister. My sister, okay. Yes. So, I'm down here because I am the lead sponsor of H578, a bill that I've been working on for many years, and I serve on the General and Housing Committee, and this is a judiciary bill, so I've been spending a lot of time in judiciary this year because this bill has been incredibly important to me, and for many years I've been asking to get it prioritized and so the bill, you know, is a simple bill, as they say here, but not so simple. So, it's really important, so it kind of, we'll have the walkthrough, there's been, over the years, growing up in Vermont, I have seen a lot of animal cruelty cases and that there were some gaps in, in what I saw. And one of the gaps was something called cost of care. And so, right now, when an animal is, taken, whether it be a dog or cat or horse or, you know, any type of animal, organizations, rescues, and other people are fitting the bill for that. And I believe that the, that should be on the abuser of an animal, not taxpayers or the wonderful organizations around the state that take on that brunt. And so, that was something that humane societies and other organizations have really been working hard in other states for. So, that was one component. A second component of the bill is harder to talk about, but it's something we needed to talk about, which is increasing the scope of bestiality in our state animal laws. So, unfortunately, in Williston, there was a really awful case this year with animal pornography. So, people exploiting animals in today's world of 2026 is different than, you know, back in the day. So, this bill also increases that scope of what constitutes as sexual abuse to the animal. And then the third reason I introduced this bill was a number of cases that I had seen where folks would be convicted of animal abuse and cruelty, but then other animals would still languish. I don't know if folks saw the horses in Townsend or other They didn't see the fish. Yeah, so it's really awful. So then, you know, this bill, you know, in testimony is supported by the state's attorneys, law enforcement testified and worked with all these folks because it's really difficult right now to be able to, so this,

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: as we'll hear in the walkthrough, about forfeiture of animals so that it's a tighter timeline and process,

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: when animals are seized. And so that's a really important thing that's come up. So, yeah, I just, I grew up with animals my whole life. We had a lot of land and we always adopted farm animals and dogs. I just saw that they're part of the family and the legislature has, you know, lead Senator Sears did a number of amazing things for animals and, there's just a few more things that I think Ear cropping. Oh, you did? Yeah. That's huge too. There's other-

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I put my foot in the middle of an international controversy.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: Oh, wow. Yeah, know there's a number of other, after my first animal welfare bill that I introduced, that passed into law was about, the puppy mill pipeline a couple years back, and, that was in agriculture. And so, after doing that, I started to work on other things and see that there was, so anyways, so these, these are, it's kind of an ominous judiciary bill and walk through it, but, yeah, I was really grateful that house judiciary prioritized it this year. And then, Senate judiciary also prioritized it. And now it's to you and I'm not gonna give away the finance aspect of it. But anyway, so that's kind of where we're at and I'm just so grateful. Obviously, this has been a really tough session and prioritizing animals is not always the top, but as I told, you know, my district, or South Burlington delegation mate Martine Larocque chairs judiciary, the animals can't wait any longer. So, we're happy to get this done and that's

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: why we're here.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Just make everybody watch the ASPCA ad. Oh. And did you see They put that in St. Jude on back to

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: back Oh my god.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I shut off the TV.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: It's really bad. Did you see the most recent ASPCA came in, in the Loyal County and there was like 40 or something huskies that were,

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: that was just by my daughter. Oh. It's a vet tech. She has a rescue that was one of the just pinned up in a big pen with lots. But, unfortunately, some frequent especially with horses.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Grew up in Kentucky. My grandfather raised horses. He raised western horses in Massachusetts, but horses are very expensive. Oh, yeah. People get them, and they love them, but they don't have the money to care for them. And you end up some really horrendous situations.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: Yeah, we had testimony in one of the committees from North to East Pine Rescue. That is amazing. It's a little far from where I live, but I plan to go there in the summer if anyone wants to come and visit, all the rescue horses. Martha Stewart adopted one of the captains.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I saw that. Okay.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: Yeah. Anyway, so that's kind of my gist. Thank you for the informed to invite Madam Chair. I'll listen to a little bit before in case our bells start ringing, we have a lot of roll call to do. Thank you.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: So, welcome to Centered Finance. Thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah. And I think we're looking at 5,000 foot thing until we get to whatever any revenue costs are. So you can give us a really high level law for billing, we'll have Chris the numbers look like, and then I'm planning on just voting this out of here. Put that on for possible. That's not on there, but I don't think this is one that's gonna sit here a long distance. Which one is this? Animal cruelty.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: You're fame over there or against it?

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: I'm against animal cruelty. Okay.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I think we can all agree on this, so let's go and we can For it out of

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the record, Hillary Chittenden's Office of Legislative Counsel. So 5,000 feet. In current statute, we have animal cruelty offenses. Humane officers can seize animals that are subject to cruelty, and an ongoing challenge has been high end pay for cost of care while the animals are they've been seized while they're waiting for forfeiture proceedings. Under current law, there aren't any timelines for how quickly the forfeiture proceedings have to move along. And so we're stretch out, prevents organizations from having to stop for adoption. Alright. So that's the kind of problem is what's happening. Five seventy eight expands the kinds of conduct that constitute immaculately offenses, both misdemeanors and felonies. It also expands some of the other sanctions that a court can impose on a person convicted of animal cruelty. And then it speeds up and better funds, or tries to better fund, which is where you come in, the process that exists in current law for that allows civil forfeiture of an animal that has been faulty. So it adds some time limits for how quickly you have to move a forfeiture proceeding along, and it requires that an owner pay a security, it goes to the court and then the animal welfare fund, to cover cough holding the animal while the forfeiture proceedings are ongoing.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: So that's

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a high level, happy to dive in anywhere people are interested, but I think security is,

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: right, it's this kind of thing. I don't know if it's frequently, but there are people who have some mental health challenges. I mean, there are people who are doing puppy bills for mice. There are people who are keeping animals because they love animals. They've got 75 cats, and they can't afford to feed them, and they can't afford to pay forfeiture. I just I'm going to trust the judiciary isn't going to allow them to end up in this endless cycle of failure to pay, judgment, failure to pay, worse judgment? It's a great

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and important point, and there is a provision in the bill that allows for an owner to request either a full waiver or a reduction of the security amount based on financial hardship.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Okay. So, as long as there's protection

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: there. And to see the animal in the first place, that you may not have to believe that there's probable cause to think that the animal has been subject to animal cruelty. There's, you know, that kind of initial funnel for who's going to end up in this process. And then there are those protections for a financial protection waiver for the security.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Do you remember sitting there with senator Sears and testimony was the horses were out in the fields and there was no barns. And the horse people said, no. You have to understand horses. There is a herd person, and if there was a barn, only the lead horse would be in the barns. The other horses would not go in. Oh, really? Yeah. My god. But everybody was they were nice Kind of a queen. They were nice. Yeah. They were nice, fuzzy horses, but sometimes it's not. Somebody called and told me. My Labrador was sitting out there, and it was cold. I'm saying my Labrador is in heaven sitting out there. It's cold. Yeah. Some dogs love it. Yeah. He was in his glory. So, okay. So that's part one. Part two?

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: That really is the part.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's kind of high level what's happening across the bill, the security, I think it's really the finance revenue related portion. So happy to answer any other question without the security or anything that I've mentioned. Otherwise, I will No.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: I don't think I'm gonna

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I took you literally at

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: the 5,000 foot view. Scrolling through the bill, can you tell me where it is in the bill? The security? Yeah.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: So I haven't seen some. So it should be interesting. Uh-huh. It

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: starts on page 20. So the first half of the bill is really on the expanded conduct, the statements of felony, and on the modification for the other sanctions available. And the procedure part, of which the security is a large component, That starts on page 14

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: K.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: With the initial procedure, and then the security is really page 20, subdivision b. So that'll be

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: subdivision d three b on line 12. Yep. Okay.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So a person who requested forfeiture hearing has post security in the amount needed to cover food and necessary veterinary care. The amount of security and payment schedule are set by rule by the director of animal welfare, and the bill has a session law provision for the next year until those rules can be approved. That sets at least kind of a baseline security amount. So this is page 28, section eight, starting on line 10 until the director of animal welfare adopts rules for the amount of security. Security shall be imposed as required in this section. So for all animals other than livestock, including domestic pests, poultry, security of a dollar per animal per day for food. And if the teasing officer determines that immediate veterinary care is required to protect the animal health or safety, $250 per ant for veterinary services. That's only if the human officer deems that veterinary care is immediately necessary. K. And then

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Per day again? Did you say per day?

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is per day per animal per day for food, $1 $1. For nonlivestock, and then 250 for veterinary services.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: That's a flat fee. That's a flat fee.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Exactly. That's not per day. That is just a flat. If Right. Mhmm. If there are some immediate concern about the animal's health or safety, then $250 for Just like veterinary services. And then for livestock, it is $2.50 per animal per day for food. And, similarly, veterinary services only if the seasoned officer determines that it's necessary to prep animals for safety. And for livestock, it's $5 per annum. So the rules, my understanding is that they will be much more specific and it will be providing very specific amounts by animal. For purposes of this kind of interim coverage, The choice was either have no security until we have rules or do something simple, but it's likely that lower than what the rules will ultimately do, but that will provide something in the meantime. And so this was the the approach taken. I kind of detailed for all animals other than livestock, smaller animals, and then for livestock. And these numbers came from the director of animal welfare based on their experience.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: But I

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: can't offer

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: a whole lot more than that.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: I didn't follow that point you just made. So this is just in the interim until the rules are made?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Correct. Right.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: And then they could choose up to these amounts, but the language doesn't say up to these amounts.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. It is in these amounts. What I was trying to say, clearly didn't do very well, is that the rules will likely be something higher than these amounts. The idea in choosing an interim amount was some placeholder that made sense, and that wouldn't be greater than what the director anticipates proposing in rules for these. And again, the hardship waiver still applies, so that applies in the interim and

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: 75, you're not gonna get hit with $75 a day.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Exactly, and part of how this plays into some of the changes the film makes in terms of procedure is that once an animal is seized, someone has to decide whether they are to be testing the seizure and whether they want forfeiture hearing. So someone who has 75 cats, who knows they cannot care for 75 cats, could choose not to contest forfeiture of at least some of those cats, in which case they can be much more immediately adopted or cared for or handled. If an owner does not confess seizures and profess a corporate repairing within fourteen days, then they corporate title to the animal. So that's another way that speeds up the process to try to care for animals who will not be staying with an owner. But if the owner is contesting seizure of at least some of those animals, then at least for the next year, the dollar per animal per day would apply, but the owner could request a financial hardship waiver. And once the animals receive, then they go to a rescue organization, to a shelter. I am new to this portfolio, so I don't have a ton of details on exactly how that works in parts of the state. But that is that's what

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: we think about rates. So

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: these are not fees, but there's I mean, is it do we often give our authority to a division director to set

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Hire fees?

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: These they're not

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I mean These are

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: these are

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: we don't set well, we have no. The judiciary gets really touchy if we try and set them.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: Yeah. So, this is not a fee and this is not a fine. Something different. It is So, it's sort of

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: in this gray area It's where a charge for the cost of the care of the animal that we have taken from. Mhmm. And rules will establish so it is it is a payment fee. Like, get charged for garaging your car if it gets towed. I mean,

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: I guess that usually we are concerned about giving our authority to other people to set fees. So I'm just bringing this up as is this an appropriate thing to give the authority to somebody else to do? Well, they're gonna do it by rule. Yeah.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: And then we'll get a second look, but it's supposed to be based on the cost. Yes.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: But referring to the security here, the question is, is there a definition of what security means?

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There is not as a definition section, but I think as the bill is drafted, it explains that the security covers food and any necessary veterinary care.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Are there any other comparables that state government does where we give up they give the ability of the departments to set sort of holding charges in these types of circumstances where the just to normalize this idea that you could that if the department should set the bearing the balance outside of the legislature's authority?

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's a good question. I would have to look into it in the back of you. The bill I mean, this is the legislature authorizing the directive on welfare to do this by rule, and it wouldn't be discretionary in each case. Right? The rules would have, I would expect, a table that said, if you seize one horse, it is this amount for food. It is this amount for this other cost. And I think given the rules that are anticipated to be kind of biannual and then these costs, I'm not aware of we've done that in legislation to that level of detail is the kind of thing that might make sense in a rule, but I'm happy to look more into kind of if there are any other comparable scenarios.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: I'm just curious. Maybe we need to set an upward bound too. I can't see a department going off and saying, you know, it's $40,000 a day, but it's fairly simple.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Price for the horse is gonna be positive. And if you throw veterinary care, and most of these don't think you wanna think about what my daughter did for veterinary care. And it wasn't any serious thing. It was just chronic issues that no one can dealt with. And she's a bad tech. So if I were hauling the same dog in,

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Is that cash or

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Lead sponsor, H.578; South Burlington)]: As much to be.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Can't hear you, Chris. We just don't have those. No. That's Grady. That's the one year old.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Hi, Grady. Hey, Grady.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Any thoughts about animal cruelty?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Don't be be be. It may keep us in bounds here.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So we one of reason this might be a little bit different than other scenarios is that seizing animals doesn't look like seizing any other kind of thing we usually seize because they are living things that require cost to maintain in a way that seizing a par does not entail quite the same necessity. You do have some costs coming in as opposed to kind of cost paid at the end, which was attention that the committee put out throughout this bill of how do you, you know, strike the right balance when you're talking about due process and notice and other procedures when seizure of an animal does implicate some different questions than some other areas. But I'm happy to look more into Nice. Happy analyst. Nice to watch. I'm just

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: We aren't anticipating that this is going to happen quickly, right? If they have to go animal by animal and so we could ask that they bring their recommendations faxed next year, and we could approve that that would protect our priority and put the fees in place, and then they wouldn't have to go through rule, maybe, which is a year long and arduous what this essentially does is it's saying here's an emergency rule. This is the money, and then go through the year long. It could probably just as fast to bring it back here in January and have a set policy question for you, does that make people feel more comfortable?

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Seem more consistent with our general approach to these things, just because no example came to mind that we allow for these amounts to be set

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: in the benefit. It's closer to the traditional fee, but it's really a cost. Well, I mean, there are people who are cool to be cool, but an awful lot of these cases seem to be people who love their kitties and just don't have enough money or space to house them or feed them or get them the necessary veterinary care. And I would anticipate that a lot of these fees are not going to be able to be paid.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: My understanding from testimony given. Yes. Is correct. Yes.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I mean, that's so Yeah. Just tell them the that can't be paid. We will get yeah. We'll get all the fees that can't be paid. So if you can draft that committee, would that make everybody comfortable? I haven't

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: done that with the recommendation that we've done all we can do about.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Well, yeah, to ask for approval. Yeah, mean, that

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: would be faster than than making. The rule making. Yeah.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Okay. Why don't we have Chris tell us to send us money? Chris, we've

[Chris Rupe (Joint Fiscal Office)]: got very little that add to this. Know, when I'm gonna tell this committee what I said to amazing meetings when they saw the bill that, you know, this is kind of analogous to a fine or a penalty that you don't typically forecast, And we don't know how frequently this would happen or what the specific situation would look like, but, you know, I think it's important for the committee to just be mindful of the fact that this is not really like a revenue raiser for state government. This is really just, it's a way of recovering the costs of care and feeding for animals that are in this situation, and it does pass the estate and animal welfare fund as a conduit, but this isn't really your typical

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: The state doesn't pay this directly.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah, and this isn't something that we would be building a budget around,

[Chris Rupe (Joint Fiscal Office)]: you know? It's not like an annual permit fee or something like that. This is really like a federal horizon to the situations that are difficult to predict in the future.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, okay. If the security comes into the animal welfare fund, then it's available for the director to pay out to the organizations that care for the Yeah, animal welfare it

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: would be the conveying society or affiliate, one of the rescue organizations who would get some of their costs. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I believe this was a good first run. Okay. We are right on time to to the minute. So, Katie McLennan is here. And we are taking about six fifty seven and actually waiting to various programming and requirements within the Department of Children and Families. This is starting to feel like the age of mood on my morning to me, except we have a little more space and air in here. Yeah. This is perfect. It's a big girl. And so think. Anyway, welcome. Thank you. Good afternoon.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: Nice to see everyone. I will share this document. Is the report of health and welfare.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: This is an omnibus

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: bill. It does many things, and I don't know that you'll be interested in this committee and talking about all of those things. It removes the asset limit for a reach up. There is a social security program for youth that you'll hear from John from. I don't know if you've scheduled John, but those are his two sections of the bill. There is an unaccompanied youth certificate program that allows unaccompanied youth to obtain a certificate, and the certificate can be used to obtain various services, like getting a driver's permit and other things that would typically require the permission of a parent or guardian. There is language about seclusion and restraint, and the appropriate uses of seclusion and restraint for children in DCF custody. There is language about transporting a child in DCF custody and the appropriate uses of seclusion and restraint. And also, when we talk about restraint, whether soft restraint or weight shackles or mechanical restraints can be used and in what circumstances. There are some various reporting requirements associated with those provisions, and there is a report, a working group at the end and report looking at how DCF tracks pregnancies and alternative manners of It's possible ask with this. So that those are the topics that are covered in the bill. I'm I'm thinking you don't want to review all of them, but why I think the bill is here is Here's the money. Asset limit would probably be appropriations.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: That's it.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: Alright. Do think I don't think it's I I think the asset limit would be something that appropriations would look at, but there are fees that are being waived. So I mentioned that there's an unaccompanied youth certificate program, different You wouldn't tell us

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: a little bit about what that is.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: All looks. Yes. You used

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: to go to court, become an emancipated youth, right?

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: That is still the case. This is doesn't not change a simpler. Mhmm. I think this legislative intent that the house added right before the bill was voted out, think it's helpful in sort of capturing who this population of unaccompanied youth is. So in instances in which severe family dysfunction, such as abuse, neglect, child abandonment, or lack of financial support has left the youth with 16 or 17 years of age homeless, and other support such as foster care are deemed inappropriate as the intent of the General Assembly to provide unaccompanied youth with the resources necessary to obtain services and benefits that the unaccompanied youth's peers can obtain with the consent of a parent or child. So, I think that kind of summarizes what this language does. This section goes on to list some of the services that a certified unaccompanied youth can use this certificate for. And then there are fees waived, associated with some of these items. So applying at no charge for a non driver identification card or learner's permit, obtaining a vital event certificate at no charge, consent to health care by professionals licensed in Vermont, obtaining employment, purchasing an automobile, and obtaining automobile liability policy, applying for a student loan, obtaining admission to a high school or post secondary school, and participating in school activities, including extracurricular activities and field trips, opening an account at a state or federally chartered bank or credit union, receiving services for victims of domestic or sexual violence as appropriate, and participate in court diversion programs or youth substance awareness safety programs operated by the court. So those are the items that this certificate can be used for. And then after this section of the bill, there is a whole series of sections that are conforming sections to sort of effectuate what was in that list. And this is where the fees are. So, first we have this vital event certificate. And the lead in language is that the state registrar shall waive the fee for certified copies of vital event certificates issued to an unaccompanied use for as obtained as a certificate. We have language for non driver identification cards. Leader language, the commissioner, meaning the commissioner of DMV, shall require payment of a fee of $29 the time application for an identification card is made except to an initial non driver identification card shall be issued at no charge to, we have a list of individuals who are exempt and added to the list is unaccompanied youth who have the certificate. Top of page 14, licensed privilege cards.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I've read this language.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: Have this new subsection E, and an unaccompanied youth who has obtained the certificate shall be provided with an operator's license or operator privilege card at no charge. No additional fee is due for a motorcycle endorsement for an unaccompanied who has the certificate. We have similar language for a learner's permit. I'm on line 17. That is helpful. The commissioner shall require payment of a fee of $24 at the time the application is made, except that no fee shall be charged for an unaccompanied use as of in the certificate. We have more language here. Right here, the examinee the fee for the examination is $11 except that no fee shall be charged for unaccompanied youth as of the end of the certificate. And for motorcycles learner permit and Subdivision 3, excuse me, the unaccompanied youth who has obtained this certification and an individual under 23 years of age, that's existing law, and the carrying custody of DCF after attaining 14 years of age shall not be charged a fee for the renewal of a motorcycle learner's permit. Indeed, Subdivision D2, an unaccompanied youth who has obtained this certificate and the 23 year old that we just talked about is not charged a fee for a learner's permit or a duplicate or a renewal thereof of the learner's permit. So, those are the sections that waive fees for a youth with the certificate, and those are vital records and otherwise some type of document from the DMV. Can you tell us how how does he use Gannett's certificate? That might be Sure. They have to be certified and there's different people who can do

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: that

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: certification outlined in section four of the bill.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Here we go.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: So, to become certified, I'm in subsection C on page six at the very bottom. And unaccompanied youth may become certified, if they are, then we have a list. First, they could be found by a school district homeless liaison or other appropriate staff person to be an unaccompanied youth. Or, they're believed to qualify as an unaccompanied youth by one of the following. Director of an emergency shelter program funded by the state, the director of a runaway or homeless youth program funded by a US Department of Health and Human Services, or US HUD, or a designee, or they could be certified by a continuum of care lead agency or designee. They could be certified by the Chief Juvenile Defender or designee, or the Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence or designee. So those are the entities that could certify that somebody is a, meets the definition of an unaccompanied abuse. I could pause here. There's also, as I said, a working group. And if you want to look at that language, we can Maybe I'll just scroll down to the end so you can see that. Okay, meetings. Okay. And subsection g of the working group language says that members of the working group who are not otherwise compensated for attendance at the meetings are entitled to per diem compensation for not more than five meetings. It's across

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: the hall. Oh, this is

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: not you. Okay. Just kidding. I won't worry about it.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: We're not giving it up. They're spending it. Okay. What is going across the hall? So there is some urgency. Any questions? This is an omnibus bill. There's lots of sections. Mhmm. Committee did spend a fair amount of time. Okay. Is there a fiscal note? That's where we'll get it. We're waiting for Nolan. If we don't have questions, we'll Nolan come. Because we just did away with fees for people who were held prior to trial and released. I'm I'm just wondering if what point do we start to impact the Department of Motor Vehicles or something. Nolan, if we don't have any questions first, we will get Nolan up. Check out. Please see if he's walking around this room. It's another room, and it's got two big, beautiful windows.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: We're working on working with them. That's right. For the record, all night, we joined physical office. I'm gonna share my screen. If So I recall, one of the favorite words in this committee is de minimis. It would like a de minimis. De minimis, so.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: A lot of de minimis's add up to a non de minimis.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: True. You think about the

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: grains of sand make a beach.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: True, but when you think about the actual number of kids, it's not enough to really make events in the budgets. So the vital event is certificate fees. We go, oh, this $10 fee for copies. They'd be exempt from that as $10 right? Section six would exempt them from adding to pay $29 fee for non driver's identification cards so they can waive that one. Section seven and eight, you have your motor vehicle and motorcycle licenses. Yeah, that would be de minimis as well. But we already did that. For this particular population. That's a key question.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Didn't we do a bill that exempted? Yeah, that is the parishioners.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: Thought there was a breach out as well.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: There's some language that I sort of read through that for some of these DMV exemptions that you're considering, that there are exemptions for somebody who's 23 and who was in DCF custody after they turned 14 years of age. So they're already exempted, and this

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: is ending in statutory. Got it. Okay. I I remember that we've done several of these, and so it's good to keep track Yeah. Before we get into another having to set motor vehicle fees increases, which I don't think any of this one will go through again.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: So,

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: are the major things, and the last one, which Katie mentioned, Social Security benefits, waiving, I think that's probably really more across the holidays. I mean, the DCF has sort of used it as quote unquote revenue, but it's not taxed.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: What we should tell them We this is yeah. He didn't really go over it cause it doesn't hit us.

[Hilary (Hillary) Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Which was it?

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Sorry, the Social Security. Also you were saying that he's jobless.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: Oh, that's jobless action, that's why I didn't go over it.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: But it's not a fee, it's not a tax. It's it's social So security, you I mean, I guess it's up to you whether you wanna hear from John about the specifics.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Well, I think the impact is going to be on probes right now if you're a child in DCF custody and you are entitled to Social Security SSI, the state keeps part or all of that to pay for your foster care, basically, or your care. This says and there is a precedent for this. It's national. There's federal involvement. And, you the idea is this is the kids' money, and the state shouldn't vote. So it's being put in trust with the kids, but the state across the hall will have to come up with the money to cover the cost at DCM.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah, it would create a budgetary hole for them to fill that gap. And in terms of what the Fed, my understanding, there's been some new federal guidance saying Yes, that's what I remember. So there's no law that's new guidance, from my understanding.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: If we don't obey, we might.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: So it becomes an appropriation issue because they'll have to backfill Yeah. And $700,000 this stuff. But

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: every, yeah, the departments seem to think that it's being stepped in and that they can cover it.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: Matthew Bernstein is watching. He's with the Vermont Office of the Child Youth and Family Advocates. He was wondering if he might be

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: able to speak. Yes, he's welcome to Zoom and we have a client, Katie send Charlotte as contact. If you send Charlotte your contact information, if you can hear us.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: There's about a fifteen to twenty second lag. I'm trying to be

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: on the other hand.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: He'll hear it. He'll hear it. But not for that.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Yeah. I know. I know. He's not gonna respond. Just don't need him to respond. Just yeah.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Charlotte, you're gonna contact him. We'll get you on Zoom. Thank you. So

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: anyway, those are the fees in this bill, which is why I came here, and then again, it's Social Security SSI, so it may or may not be your purview. In terms of how it affects the bill, it's definitely an appropriation issue. So, it's up to you whether you feel it is within

[Chris Rupe (Joint Fiscal Office)]: your jurisdiction, just want to hear more or not.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: We can always hear more, even if it's not jurisdiction. It

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: does weaken our case though when we yell at somebody else for statute. Any

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: other questions about fees or?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: No, the fees are pretty cut and dry. Think the question is, it's like every time we allow a compact license, you know, we're losing local revenue, you know, Vermont license revenue and Yeah. Sounds legit. It it it's the cumulative effect. Those of us that during the last downturn funded a lot of good progress by just putting a little 5 and $10 fee on a traffic ticket until suddenly people couldn't pay the 2 to $300 that was on your ticket.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: And

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I've learned a lesson from that. You know, it's the grain of sand thing. Well, it's just $500 and it was helping, just $5. And it's helping the victims of crime services and it's helping this and it's helping add, but didn't add it up. Matthew was on Zoom. Okay, Matthew was on Zoom. Matthew, come on in and just identify yourself. We venture health and welfare, but finance And floor is yours.

[Matthew Bernstein (Child, Youth and Family Advocate, State of Vermont)]: Thank you, Madam Chair, Matthew Bernstein, Child Youth and Family Advocate for the State of Vermont. And frankly, I just want to be here. I was unclear as to whether you were going to look at, in particular, the Department of Mental Health memo that's on the website submitted today. And that was the main thing that I wanted to respond to if that is going to be an issue, which is also in the fiscal note. But if it's not going to be an issue, then I don't want to take up your time. I guess I would also say there's lot of moving parts in this bill and I'd be happy to help clarify if anybody has any questions, but it was on that particular subject that I wanted to be here. And as you know, Madam Chair, you've already heard a lot of this information, so I don't wanna rehash anything that's not useful to this committee.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I try and keep this committee to our jurisdiction. Otherwise

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: Which memo is it that you're referring to, Martine The

[Matthew Bernstein (Child, Youth and Family Advocate, State of Vermont)]: Department of Mental Health memo from today that's on your website that relates to contracting.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: It's Sandy Hoffman. Got it. Oh, okay, treatment agency. Okay, but this has to do with The restraints?

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Correct.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Okay, no, the restraints are not in our jurisdiction. There is a concern that if we limit the kinds of restraints, that it may limit our ability with some out of placement facilities, out of state placements that go by different rules.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: Okay, so this is not a It says fiscal and system of care impact.

[Matthew Bernstein (Child, Youth and Family Advocate, State of Vermont)]: Madam Chair, yes, I think just to clarify since you brought this up, this bill does not impact PRTFs or out of state facilities or DMH placed children, it simply impacts Sorry, I'm talking about the restraint and seclusion sections in particular right now. Those relate to facilities where children in DCF custody are placed both in state and out, and also to facilities licensed and regulated by DCF. So that second category is only in state facilities. DMH is reacting to what I believe is a business efficiency that they piggyback on the contracts of DCF in some of these placements, which I understand, but I just wanted to clarify that that business efficiency is separate from the law, what this law says. And while I understand this law H657 passing might impact the fact that DMH piggybacks under those contracts, that is not a matter that's before the legislature. That is an issue that they have jurisdiction over and authority to change. They could separately contract, they could do something different. They could piggyback on the best practice that this bill puts forward, which is, you know, we consider essential safeguards for children. So I just wanted to clarify that, especially because the DMH memo spends time talking about PRTFs, psychiatric residential treatment facilities, there is a new PRTF being developed in Vermont, which is a crucial part of our system of care, but that is not licensed and regulated by DCF. So I'm not clear. That's it. That's all I wanted to say.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Thank you. For the record, all I want to go, one, I do think this is an appropriation issue, not a finance issue. And two, think it is appropriate. First of all, I received a similar memo from IHS, but not this one. I think it is appropriate for them to flag financial concerns. Whether or not we agree it's a concern or not is a whole other story. So their point is that they think by just language in there that changes, that requires them to do certain practices for out of state. They're saying by doing that, it's going to change their contract processes. Because of that, they're saying that they're gonna have to go out for more contracts rather than piggybacking, as Matthew talked about. And they're saying that if they worry, there's gonna be more concerns about, you have more higher, they'll have to sign different higher rate contracts. They have some contractual concerns. So I do think that it's appropriate for them to flag potential increased costs. Whether those come to fruition is a different story, but I do think it is appropriate for them to mention it I to actually put it in my fiscal note as a flag. This may have potential contractual impact, but it's also one of those things that if we do it, then they will have to just address it in budget adjustment. Like, because we don't know what the cost will be, it's kind of like what Chris has put on before with like a penalty, like you don't know what it's gonna do. We don't know what those contracts are gonna be. It's more of one of those things where they're flagging and I put in the fiscal note, it could be a cost. You should know it could be a cost, but we don't know what it will cost. Just be mindful of that as you move forward with the station.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: That's all I'm That really is an appropriations.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: It is appropriations issue. Okay,

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: committee. Questions. Maybe we'll let this one percolate a little bit. I put it on for a vote first thing tomorrow. That way I'm happy to make a motion. You're make a vote for you. Are we ready?

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Can I serve as a clerk proxy?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: He's clerk proxy. Somebody else It's not not. We're sorry to Matt. There he is. Very fast.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: We're Grady. We want more Grady. He's over playing with a golf club.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Okay. I

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: need a motion. I will make a motion to pass h six fifty seven draft.

[Katie McLennan (Legislative Counsel, Senate Health and Welfare)]: It's the Senate Health and Welfare Committee report.

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: The Senate Health and Welfare Committee report passed favorably out of Senate Finance and to the full Senate.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Okay. Further discussion? Questions? Any further amendments? If not, all those in favor let's this is little this one's gonna be a little call to roll.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: No. I'm gonna go

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: It's gonna be a little confusing.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Unlike our normal clerk, I'm just gonna go alphabetically here. I'm gonna go to Senator Chittenden. Yes. Senator Beck?

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Missing.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Senator Brock? Yes. Senator Matos? Yes. Senator Hardy?

[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member, Senate Finance)]: Yes. This is not

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: It's not alphabetical. Okay. Sorry.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: I wanna give you a five minute break. We're gonna we've got a long session after.

[Sen. Martine Larocque Gulick (Member, Senate Finance)]: Hardy with an asterisk. FDL. Hate your name. Yes. Center. Yes. And six zero one.

[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair, Senate Finance)]: Oh, he's confused me. I can do it. Yeah. I can do that. I'm not doing it. Oh, okay. Okay. Can we take a five minute break? And then we are going