Meetings
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[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: We are. I think this is a lab issue that we're settling tonight. So let's start. And I think, Michael, the question is, what we understand that there's real consternation about fish and wildlife setting of feed, which is over and above what their traditional feed red schedule. But it's not clear why the whole thing seems to be done away with that we've have we taken away their ability or should we taken it, then we've given it back for this year for them to set the rent on the whatever the house's name is out in rotten. But the next year, they have to come in with a fee list. My read is that the legislature is assuming that fee setting authority that we have previously given to them.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: I may be wrong. So you're in you're in the right ballpark, but there's a little bit more new on this.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Always is.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: This is migrating with legislative council. Traditionally, the fees that agencies charge are set and approved by the general assembly, and that is a specific statement of purpose in the fee chapter entitled 32.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: It's a tax.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: Agencies are supposed to come forward every three years with a proposed fee schedule for amendment. You have given certain agencies independent fee authority, specifically the Department of Forest and Parks for campgrounds and firewood at campgrounds and things of that nature, renting out of, you know, a vivilians, like, of the state parks, things like that. And and they they have that. You also gave similar authority to the Department of Dish. And while they for the ability, they had to publish rules for reasonable fees or charges for the use of lands, roads, buildings, other property, and the use of intuition for the remount and conservation camps. And they do have a rule for that and it's not a very long rule. It says out, you know, you said, there's the, conservation camp tuition and then they have a broad range for licenses up to $12,000 for a license. And what created the consternation is that the commissioner came into ways and means and said that he had authority to establish on his own a rule that would require a person who was just going to access Fish and Wildlife lands to have a license. And that created significant anxiety. And I was getting calls, but it's like the commissioner of Fish and Wildlife says I'm gonna need a license to bird watch. The commissioner of Fish and Wildlife says I'm gonna need a license to go
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: through a wall. Those are my emails. And so
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: the Ways and Means Committee, they had several members with that type of anxiety consternation, and they said, let's go back to the model where the department had to have its fees approved except for the tuition and and I can't remember the other the other
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: I
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: think it was is it rentals?
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: And the licenses for for research academic study commercial use, or use by regulated utilities.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: And
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: then because it will take time for them to come forward with what the proposed fees were going to be for you to approve it, The committee left the existing rule in place until next year, next fiscal year. The department comes in with a report in January of what the fees are going to be, and then the general assembly exercising its traditional fee authority would set the fees for the use of fish and wildlife lands, access areas, etcetera. And then the commissioner would no longer have his alleged authority to require a license for bird watching going on to It
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: said act use of the fishing access.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: It was I mean, it's all apartment lands and access areas are a large part of the department's lands, but the the access areas are not solely the access areas. I'm
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I'm just thinking the Kurdish pond, and there's an access area you can put your boat in. But you you there's also a swimming area, and I could carry my kayak down there and put it in the water too.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: Shelburne Pond. There's an access area there, but there's also a series of trails Mhmm. Right off of the access area, and those are Department of Fish and Wildlife Lands. And so it's not that the department won't be able to charge in the future for use of fish and wildlife lands, use of access areas. It's just going to have to be approved by the general assembly. Okay. And what the department and I just saw this maybe forty five minutes ago tops. But what the department is proposing is is to basically leave them with their statutory authority to set the fees for for the use of lands, roads, buildings, and other property of the departing lands, but to include a provision that says the commissioner is prohibited from adopting by rule or requirement that an individual possess a fish and wildlife area license or permit for general and mental recreational access to the parking on the land. So, yes, that does address the the issue that raised this concern, but does it address the larger issue of the department having a standalone authority to set fees? And do you want to be the entity that charges or sets those fees going into the future? And that's that's do you return to the traditional general assembly fee setting authority or do you just limit the department's individual fees authority so that the commissioner can unilaterally charge a license for access to fish and wildlife events.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. Do
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: you know or kind of a question for the commissioner.
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Do you know if there's, like, a an attendant at Shelburne Pond watching people flip their boats in? There's not.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: No. Is there one or do you know, or do
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: you is there not one?
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: I mean, I can run my bike to Shelburne and I do, and I would walk around on the trails there. And and so there isn't an attend there may be an attendant at other airports. There's like Yokoho, and there's an attendant there in some
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: There's never I've never seen an attendant. How Yeah. I'm
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: thinking of enforcement on, like, if you happen to get a sticker for your paddle board or whatever, so you can go in and access. There's gonna have to be somebody sitting there to make
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: sure every paddle board You wanna go into the board?
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Well, have the commission also all kinds of houses around South Of Jones Ponds. And I am I well, I Well,
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: you at the general assembly, you have tried to do this before. You have tried the decal. You have tried the waterways license. You've you've tried this before.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: The standing wave. No. It's funny.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: And and it's it's a lot harder than it sounds.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yeah.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: What do you do for the boy scout summer camp? Do they all need to have their own license in order to use the access area?
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: There was one week Goldberg's proposed low income kids camp.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: When when your family comes up with their kayaks to see you for the one week they see you a year, do you have to get all of them a license in order to use their kayak? I mean, that kind of thing came with that Yeah. Routinely the chores. Right.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: To come out with a canoe on the
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: yeah. So, like, a practicality. You know, Apple Island Resort in Milton, the launch or in technically South Europe, the launch. Used to be Apple Island Resort, now the state
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, I what you're talking about. You know what I'm talking about? So that one, you don't have to pay to launch
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: your boat because that fee is built into your boat registration. Right. Correct?
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, no. See, that's partly true, but not partly true. So the the use of access areas, there is allowed use of authorized uses, and there's a priority of uses. And first priority are use for hunting and fishing. Second priority is use by motorized vessels. Third priority is I can't remember what
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: the It is ice fishing, I think.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Well, there's the APD and snowmobile use for face fish. And then there's non motorized vessels, kayaks, canoes, etcetera. So you And tubes. You obviously need a a license to hunt and fish. Yep. You need a motorboat registration for your motorboat. You need a fishing license to ice fish, but you do not need a license for for the use of a non motorized vessel on the waters of the state. And I I do think the department I'm sure you know as well as I that they are having revenue challenges. I think they're traditionally, they all fish and wildlife agencies across the country are supposed to be be license based, fee based, revenue based, and then using the federal excise tax on ammunition and and sport and fish equipment to pay for their departments, but that traditional revenue is going down. And I think this year, maybe last year, fund allocations are now exceeding those traditional revenues. And the department's looking for additional revenues on their their their use based model.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I'm familiar, guys. We can just talk about this with the with the gas tax.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: And that that, I think, is why the commissioner proposed the license for the use because it you never actually saw the proposed language and and saying what the commissioner was contemplating in his assertion that he had the authority to do it by rules. And arguably, he did. But arguably, members of your body, both bodies, were not really happy about that.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yeah.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: And so that's what led to the language that's in the miscellaneous bill.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Say what we wanna do.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Mean, we can we can just bow to the house. We can tweak it so it is discussable in video conference. Or we could just let it ride and we got enough issues in this. I don't know if this is where we wanna end up fighting because it's gonna be fought out again next year.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I would say I mean, we I've heard double testimony on this because we took testimony on this center in our morning committee as well. And I think that the house version solves the concerns, and I think that what Hannah is proposing is very narrow, and they could come up with some other thinking to get around it, and that's concerning. And this will this proposal in the house proposal requires that there be a conversation about it next year. And, I mean, we had this whole conversation about the you know, how you know how you got onto the lake. And if you're once you're on the lake, how do you enforce it anyway? So I feel like we should go with that house version of it.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Can somebody do that? Yeah. I this moves us forward. Nobody gets hurt. They've got money into there for fish and wildlife, so they're not hurting this year. And would want to kick that can, which will probably be an easier can to fix next year than some of the other ones. Is that does that work? This is the last issue, guys.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: It's $5.50. That works.
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yeah. I just the idea is I don't understand how you enforce, like Yeah. Family camp on the lake.
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: I put my paddleboard in. I'm not a paddleboard
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: around versus the accident. Right.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I mean, that's what the commissioner said this morning when I was asking about Lake Dunmore, which is quickly a guy that asked you, though. By going on a state park boat launch, I wouldn't get No.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I'm not the field. Park. If I
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: go in for my friend's cottage, I wouldn't get charged. But if I go in from the official state boat launch
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yeah.
[Sen. Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Then I would supposed to have a should have a license unless I have my fishing license with me, in which case I'm covered. So it's
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: like Who enforces it? I mean, unfortunately, it's not a way to Yeah. Michael, go. Yeah.
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Thanks, Michael.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Tomorrow, we are going to vote out miscellaneous tax and the yield bill.
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yes.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: And then I might let you go home early.
[Rep. Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: I'm happy to stay
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: in that. Other people. We're working on that,
[Michael O'Grady (Legislative Counsel)]: Pete.
[Sen. Ann Cummings (Chair)]: They've got great cuts.