Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: We are live. This is Senate Finance, and the chair was just misreading. He doesn't give breaks.

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: I appreciate all breaks given. I

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: cry. Okay. We're gonna go back to a different subject, and that's relating to sustainable data center deployment. We did a quick walk through on this one. Not this one?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: No, we did, I think there's the Senate bill.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay, and we put it up there because we knew there was one coming. Committee, this is a bill that Natural Resources would really like knowing I've been looking in the various tax bills for all the things I'm getting emails about, and we don't have them yet. They are coming in the education bill, which the house may vote out on Friday, which means we'll get it maybe by the end of next week. Yeah. So we'll look at this bill. The other one I've got on, I believe is seven ten. If we looked at the best version of this, a lot if this is very similar, a lot of it has to do with energy planning. And so we might I think there were a few deadlines and things we had to deal with, but those are the two that they would like to have next door. So I've told them I would ask the committee how you feel. We are going to have You wanna give us two bills? I wanna give they want they would like two bills. What?

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: I'm up three.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Which ones are they again?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry, madam chair. 27, which is no. We've got

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: State of the data center deployment.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Seven twenty seven. Yeah. The data center. And I believe it is this electric generating facilities, but I'm not sure. So let's walk through the h films.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. And then we will have the discussion. Okay. Great. And just

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: a quick reminder that senator White still was essentially a moratorium Yes. On new data centers. But requiring the department and the PC to do the reports, do the studies, the other state agencies to come back, how these facilities should be regulated. This, so we'll now go through H-seven 27 and just to provide a little bit of context maybe before we get into the bill, some of the physical and operational requirements of data centers and why the bill is structured the way it is. So what is an AI data center? Basically a large warehouse. It's filled with IT hardware, typically floor to ceiling racks that contain computer servers that themselves contain advanced technologies like high performance microchips, like GPUs and TPUs, that each contain hundreds of billions of transistors, which I just find fascinating every time I try to understand what these little chips are, and I don't. The point is though, they require a tremendous amount of power when they're operational. And that power, massive power, if necessary for large scale model training and inference for AI. So you need a lot of power to operate them, and when they're operational, computer hardware, they generate a lot of heat, so they have to be cooled.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So You couldn't do district heat with Actually, there are some rules over there.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I looked at another state that try to use the, you know, the waste heat. Yeah. So So, just, again, just to kind of, again, just more context, so for a 20 megawatt data center, and I'm using that threshold because that's the

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: minimum threshold. We have two, what I've been told. You have kind

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: of the traditional data centers. Yes. There are in Vermont. I always forget how many there are. There are four,

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: there are five. Okay, there's some.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: But, we're talking about here AI data centers that have the capacity to use 20 megawatts of power pretty continuously. The traditional data centers, all of them in Vermont, use about half of one megawatt. Very They do cloud services, web hosting, but nothing like the artificial intelligence training and inference. Just getting back to what the power energy requirements are for, again, the minimum threshold that would trigger this bill is 20 megawatts. That is about enough power to serve 20,000 households. So, one data center, that means the minimum therapy, 20,000 households.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: And that's a day. Yeah.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Then you, because they're operational pretty much 20 fourseven.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I don't know how much variability there is. 20,000 households is maybe twenty five months.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: Burlington? Usually kilowatt per household.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Okay. And then, so in terms of the cooling of the microchips, there are several alternatives, and it's an area that is advancing in terms of technology. If you use water, just an open loop system, evaporator system, you would could potentially use again for just the minimum 20 megawatt facility, about 500,000 gallons a day, which is about how much 1,500 households use a day. However, there are other systems. There's a closed loop system, which just circulates coolant that has a refrigerant added to it. And then there are other dry cooling, immersion cooling, other systems. Point being that depending on what you use, could have a major impact on the water supply in an area or not. Some of the other systems, I'll get into this a little bit more, but if you did use, like, a closed loop, you didn't use hardly any water, that would require a lot more power. So, are trade offs and things to think about. So, the power, potentially the water, those are the two big issues that are addressed in this bill. The land, just to give you some idea, a 20 megawatt facility might be on land that's a minimum of 10 acres, usually between ten and forty acres is the range that I found. And the facility itself, to give you an idea of the size, up to a 100,000 square feet, about the size of two football fields together, two and a half acres.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: And I assume that this huge warehouse for machines, unlike other huge warehouses for things that require people to move things in, out, up, down, that this thing would not have a lot of employees?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I think that's generally the case, so I'm not sure. You know, people talk about job opportunities. It's mostly in the construction phase. Development and construction. Yeah. Operationally, I don't think there are a lot of full time employees. Obviously, there are some, but it's it's mostly the warehouse facility that's just making sure it's maintained and running.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: And no one has asked for a warranty idea?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Not that I can. So, some of the kind of pros of data center people talk about is potential revenue to the state, increased revenue, or upgraded infrastructure, electric to the water. Some of the concerns are what I mentioned, the environmental impact, different power demand on the grid, so the resiliency and reliability of the grid, and also protecting other ratepayers from getting some of those costs that may be necessary to upgrade the systems. Social equity, that came up in the context where they're cited, actually. So, that's very big picture. So, we'll get into the bill itself. And as I mentioned, the first two sections deal with the energy, the power, utility service, falls under the jurisdiction of the Public Utility Commission. So, that's what we'll look at first, and as I mentioned, the next two sections have to be with the environmental impact. And then the final sections are some reporting back on some issues, which we'll talk about when we get there. So, section one, this creates a new subchapter in Title 30. This subchapter may be known as Vermont Sustainable Data Centers Act. I'll just read the purpose because it helps to explain some of the goals here. Purpose of this sub chapter is to establish a regulatory framework that ensures responsible growth of an emerging industry in a manner that protects existing electric ratepayers from unwarranted costs and promote sustainable climate, environmental, community, and equity outcomes consistent with state policies. So, the threshold, what a data center is for purposes of this subchapter, it's a facility that uses or is able to use 20 megawatts or more power.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: To put

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: this in further context, when you talk about the hyperscale data centers, usually the I have yet to find specific agreed upon industry standards, but maybe they just changed. But maybe a 100 megawatts might be kind of people when they're talking about the hyperscale, but they go into the hundreds and now gigawatts. So we're relatively small here, although big impacts on the small state, but just wanted you to be aware of that. And then so, a facility that engaged in providing data processing, hosting, and related services as described under, and you'll see a classification code from the North American Industry Classification System. So, this is the system that's prepared and part by the Office of Management and Budget Federal Office, basically classifies all the different sectors of the economy based on their primary purpose. And so, That seems like a specific way of getting at these particular entities for purposes of this bill. Facility purposes of this sub chapter means the buildings, equipment, structures, any other stationary items located on a single site or contiguous or adjacent site owned or operated by the same person or by any person that controls, is controlled by it, or is under common control of a such person. The bulk of the regulatory oversight in terms of the electric usage is contained in this next section, section two eighty four, which concerns what are called large load service equity contracts. This is the contract between the data center and the electric distribution utility. Every data center is required to enter into such a contract and it must comply with all of the requirements which I'm about to go through, and it must be approved by the Public Utility Commission. So, in terms of, I'll just read you, for the purpose of ensuring just and reasonable rates for all rate payer classes, and mitigating the risk of financial exposure to electric distribution companies and their existing ratepayers. The data center shall be served by an electric company pursuant to a large load service equity contract approved by the PUC. So the requirements that must be met in the contract, one, include a method for allocating costs that is equal or proportional to the cost of providing electric service to the data center, including providing for equitable contributions to the embedded costs, so the existing infrastructure and maintenance of that infrastructure, for example. And the efficiency, reliability and resiliency of the electricity network, so the broader distribution transmission there. Two, mitigate the risk of other regular plastics paying unwarranted costs, including any electric generation, distribution and transmission infrastructure costs incurred to meet the load requirements of the data center or the energy capacity transmission or resource adequacy costs incurred as a result of the data center's load. So that last part would be some of the operational costs of managing the grid and ensuring that the voltage and frequency is appropriately managed, particularly with this new large load system. Three, the contract shall specify its duration and the date, or the estimated date, that the electric company will begin to provide service to the data center. Four, obligate the data center to pay a minimum amount or percentage based on the data center's projected electricity usage for the duration of the contract to ensure compliance with subdivision one. So, to ensure that they are responsible for the cost that they are generating. Five, include a reasonable charge for demand in excess of the data center's projected electricity demand at the time the contract is entered into. Include a collateral requirement sufficient to mitigate the risk of stranded costs, so if the data center ceased operations, that there would still be financial protections, since that revenue wouldn't be coming in, which is normally when you recover the costs of infrastructure investment or upgrade. This would basically say there needs to be some kind of financial instrument that would protect utility and other ratepayers if a business destock operations. Seven, include provisions requiring implementation of demand side management operational measures for the purpose of maintaining grid stability and efficiency, including demand response and flexible load management practices, such as load shifting, peak shading, and the use of distributed energy resources. Distributed energy resources would include on-site generation. If any, it would also include storage, the use of battery storage or backup diesel generators. But basically what this is getting at, demand response, able to respond if there's an emergency, maybe to go off the drawing from the grid. Flexible load management is more strategic grid optimization on an ongoing basis. So, might be, you know, still Still walking. Right. To the extent you're able to shift to your own storage or on-site generation.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: You don't really have to buy high cost electricity off the grid.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Also, include provisions for the collection of gross receipts, taxes, energy efficiency charges, and other fees or charges that may be applicable to electricity revenues. These are not new taxes or fees. The gross receipts tax, all utilities pay. It's a portion of their operational revenue. It's not really a tax, it's a fee. It goes towards the costs of regulating. So, PUC and the department, they share a portion of that revenue you have to pay for their regulatory costs. You're all familiar with the energy efficiency charge that are on everybody's electric bill, they would be required to pay those charges, and then if there are any other fees

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: or

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: charges under existing law. Again, there are no new fees or charges proposed here. Attach all provision, meet any other terms or conditions required by the PUC that are consistent with the purpose of this section and in the public interest. So, the subsection C on paper basically saying that the Commission shall not approve the contract unless it finds that the same will promote the general good of the state. And then to kind of assist with ensuring that that's the case, subsection D says that before approving the contract, the commission shall find that the terms of the contract and then there are a number of specific specific findings that must be made. For example, number one, will not adversely affect the efficiency, reliability, and resilience of the electric power system, will result in an economic benefit to the state and its residents are consistent with the principles for resource selection expressed in the applicable electric distribution companies approved least cost integrated plan. These are plans that might be submitted by electric utilities every three years, I think, where they basically try to balance supply with demand in a affordable way, kind of a least cost way, while also meeting state's environmental goals. But they're intended to make sure that the utilities are operating and went up to factory payers and also Yeah. Yes.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Sorry to interrupt, is the Is there a definition of economic benefit and will that Whatever that amount or number or whatever it is to take into consideration the energy that was spent,

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: the cooling and the water and all of that?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, that's a good question. There isn't a definition. Without a definition, it's, you're kinda leaving it up to the PUC to kinda- Right. Take into consideration the various factors. You could be more specific if you wanna ensure that there's a proper balancing of Yeah.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. But there's work on opportunities. If we lose it all here, we don't have the opportunity to use that water and power for something else. Right. And is there any provision in

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: here about decommissioning the Yes. Okay.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: That did come up, House Energy determined, and also House Environment, which didn't have possession of the bill, looked at it and particularly weighed in on the Act two fifty two water noise, There aren't sufficient existing regulations for decommissioning. So, you'll see, I think it might be the very last section, is asking the department to come back with recommendation on that bunch of projects. This recommendation will come back this year, as of December. Number four are consistent with the electrical energy plan approved by the department or that there is a cost to permit a variance. This is the annual plan, I think it's a annual plan, that the department prepares, which is ultimately integrated into the comprehensive energy plan that the state prepares, and again, trying to ensure that the state is meeting its, its goals with respect to renewables and emissions, etcetera. So, Then, five, we'll ensure that the data center will be served economically by existing or planned transmission facilities without undue adverse effect on Vermont utilities or other retail ratepayer classes, and are consistent with environmental justice and equity policy as established under Vermont law. Subsection E basically states that a data center shall not be eligible to participate in an energy savings account or a customer credit program pursuant to Vermont law, or self managed energy efficiency program pursuant to Vermont law. These are entities that do not pay the energy efficiency charge. They basically retain the money, but they can then self manage their own plan or they can set up accounts where that money goes towards efficiency. Data centers are not are not allowed to participate in those programs.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So, they're going to pay us to get the efficiency charge unless they're generating their own. Right?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: That's true. If they have, you know, behind the meter, what that's all, they have their own on-site generation facilities. Okay. So then there is a requirement in section two eighty five regarding the energy efficiency designed that specifies that early in the design development phase, suggestion to be a little bit more specific about what that means. In any event, the owner or operator of the data center shall consult with the efficiency utility appointed by the PUC The PUC. Efficiency HIRMA, the entity that they referred to, to ensure compliance with state energy efficiency requirements and that will likely exist. There are, as you know, commercial building energy standards, in law, as well as other best practices that might be applicable. So, there's some consultation in the design phase. And then there are report requirements, quarterly reports by the data centers. Within three months of becoming operational, the data center shall begin submitting quarterly reports to the PUC and the Department of Public Service, and those reports shall include the data center's water and energy usage, including its peak usage per day and an itemization of the data center's payments toward shared infrastructure constructed to support the data center. Then the department, beginning in January 2028, if there is a data center, at least one data center operating pursuant to a large load equity contract, the commissioner shall include in its annual report, energy report, findings and recommendations related to the energy, environmental and economic impacts of data center construction and operation in Vermont, as well as any impactful developments within the region, including any benefits to all ratepayers from electric infrastructure projects undertaken to provide power to one or more data centers. That's where work would come to you. Section two eighty seven is just rule making authority to the PDC as it deems necessary to implement these provisions. The application section for this subchapter will apply to any data center that's not operational on the effective date of this act, as well as to any data centers that are operational, as I mentioned, they're just, they're very small ones, to the extent they wanted to expand their capacity and Get this megawatt. Right. So, then we get to the environmental sections. Section three, all section three is a very short section that has broad implications because it basically is the trigger, it's defining what development means under Act two fifty to include the construction of improvements on a tract or tracts of land for a data center as defined in the previous section. These new facilities would be subject to Act two fifty review and all of Act two fifty criteria. In addition, there are new requirements under that Act two fifty review specific to water use if they're using water to cool the IT hardware. I'm not gonna go through this in great detail. Michael O'Grady is our water expert and permitting expert. To the extent you wanna get into the nitty gritty, you should definitely hear from him. I will just say a couple of things in here. There is a preference if a data center is gonna use water that it used a closed loop system, if that's feasible, because it's not using a lot of water. That, to the extent they apply any groundwater, any withdrawal permits, discharge permits. There is a requirement that if there is a discharge of water, that it has a plan in place for monitoring any PFAS in the water, and ensuring that they're prohibited from adding PFAS to any water that's discharged, so that they would have to have a place and means for filtering and containing any PFAS before it's discharged. But other than that, there are some very specific requirements that need to be met under the permitting, which again, if you want to get into the detail, you should probably hear I know that house senate energy natural resources is looking pretty closely at these. Think they sections.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Senate Natural Resource, and they would actually like this bill. They

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: the did they have the question of the bill, or you have that here?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: He had the

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: sense. You walked through it with us.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: I was like, this is all deja. No. I walked through with you

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: in energy and natural resources. Yeah. Oh, I Because I started there, I assumed that they had possession. No. I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. So it's confusing to me too. Was Okay.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: They should do my possession. Walk through the senate bill. I want yes. Well, I want this to Senate bill here. Yeah. Yeah.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Walk through this bill. They Then in energy, and I thought that same possession.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So You have the question. Got it. Okay. We can look at it. All the utility stuff is probably ours, and then we can send it with our report intact to them if they're they can continue to do

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know. They We wanted stuff.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: The Senate bill was a man. Senate bill was a man, and we knew this one was a Mortomy. Mortomy. Mortomy. Mortomy.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Mortomy. Mortomy.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: This stuff very generally. This one has had time since they have all day to to get flush flushed out. So we're gonna take a look at this. Nice. And that way you can decide what we want to do.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: To answer Senator Ray's question, I I think if they can fit into a regulatory structure that works and utilities have to actually have the power to give them, then you know.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I think we

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: already are. So we walked through it. And I was like, I feel like I'm going do this.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah, we have We have it. So let's finish this up and then we can discuss

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: both of them.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, so there are only two more sections. Section five is a report that's prepared by the PUC, which you would receive on or before 01/15/2027. It's basically a report on the market conditions for renewable electric generation. Then, the final substantive section has to do decommissioning. This is a recommendation. It would come from the Commissioner of Public Service in consultation with the Secretary of Natural Resources, the Chair of the Land Use Review Board, and any other interested stakeholders, if appropriate by the Commissioner. That recommendation shall be for a regulatory model for data center decommissioning. Then it just defines data center as we've been using that term. The recommended model developed pursuant to this section shall ensure responsible data center decommissioning in a manner that protects and preserves the environment and the public health and welfare, and the model shall include standards and procedures that address, one, approval of a decommissioning plan by the appropriate regulatory entity. Two, regulatory oversight of the decommissioning process, including through site visits and inspections. Three, bond requirement or other financial assurance to ensure a data center is solely responsible for the costs associated with implementation of an approved decommissioning plan. Four, guidelines for data sanitization, the physical construction of highly sensitive storage devices, the documented chain of custody for technology assets, so all data is wiped from any of the infrastructure and cannot be recovered. Five, guidelines for environmental compliance, hazardous material handling, environmental remediation, and site restoration. Six, a timeline for commencing and completing the decommissioning process after the abandonment, closure, destruction, or permanent cessation of operations of the data center, and any other matters deemed appropriate by the commissioner. As I mentioned, that report is due this year, December 15, and would have come to this committee, among others. There was something else I was going Oh, just so you're aware because I, now I actually can't remember under the Senate proposal. But under this bill's introduced, initially the citing requirements also were with the PAC. There wasn't the Act two fifty jurisdiction, so it was modeled much more like section two forty eight a and two forty eight. So, citing and telecom, citing for

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: new

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: generation facilities, which, you know, themselves incorporate some of the I two fifty review out of the municipal review. This

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: is a whole different thing than a cell town.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, this is definitely a whole different thing. But I just wanted you to be aware of that model that was considered, but ultimately, House Energy opted to not have any citing environmental issues through the PC. They focus just on the mostly the Yeah. Power and then the environment that's got through. Okay. Stacked. That is it. This would be effective on passage. Okay.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Still committing. When you have a chance to catch your breath, go through this and see if there are sections that you feel we really should deal with. I was looking at the grid in the power and transmission that is generally in our area. The environmental impact water, would generally be in natural resources. We'll sit down with a marker and see where we want to land on this one.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I'll just follow-up what I said earlier. I just think that if we're going to open this floodgate, so to speak, that we make sure this is a real huge economic benefit to the state. So I think defining that piece about economic benefit would be helpful. And I think you have to weigh the the environmental costs and the power costs and all of that. Yeah.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: It but you guys could do that.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Maybe Yeah. We we do neither committee. Yeah.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. About sleeping. The electric, environmental, or it'll just take a while to stiff this out. We'll work and come to a great bill. Okay. James, do you have a fiscal note?

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: I do. And it should be quick, madam chair.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. That's okay. We've only got two more bills, and I have a $4.15 meeting. So we're doing really good.

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Hello, everyone. The James at the Joint Fiscal Office. There is a fiscal note posted on the committee page for this bill for your reference. The fiscal implications of this bill are minimal from the current fiscal office point of view. I'll start by saying the bill does not appropriate funds or raise new state revenue or establish new permits or fees. There are several agencies and departments within the state that would be charged with examining permit applications, specifically at the Agency of Natural Resources and within the Land Use Review Board for data centers under this bill as they're defined in this bill. Has been in touch with both of those agencies. They anticipate that both of those that these permits would fit easily into the existing permit review and volume workflows of other agencies as they currently stand. They don't anticipate extra costs from reviewing these permit applications. I will just note that given the potential fee paid by these data centers to the Land Use and Road to View Board, the magnitude of that maximum fee amount, which is $165,000, would be the maximum fee paid for a construction permit under act two fifty. Again, that's the maximum. It's a tier fee structure, but the maximum would be 165 per application, would be a significant increase in revenue for the receiving special fund that receives Act two fifty perma fee revenue.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Was wondering, looking at the magnitude if that's enough. Yeah. It's special support. Do you use birth data? Don't think we

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Oh, there there are no special fee. I let me clarify then. So there's no special fee.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Oh, no. I'm just looking at that. Just wondering if giving the environmental impact and potential, you know, that would really cover the level thinking of investigating would be necessary. I'm probably more concerned about because water is water unless they're going to move it in from out of state. But electricity is hooked to the grid and, you know, generate enough. We've gotta buy it and there's more and less expensive, which will impact everyone's rates. That's that one's gonna be really complex. Water water is easy as long as it's

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: I mean, where do you get it and now you're putting hot water back into the environment where it's normally into the ground and cool it. Right? Well, I mean, didn't you could do ground cooling, but gotta be close to it. Well, at least you could pump it in the ground. But, yeah, you gotta do it from DC for that.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: You take water through a machine or you put it back in the environment. You go out to the DC.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: And there are people who run along sidewalks to melt the ice in the water. I'm all for that. That's what I'm

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: The roads. Right. That's what we could do. Yeah. Alright.

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: I would certainly encourage the committee to invite the DC to hear more if you'd to hear more. I will just note that I was in touch with chair McMahon right at the PUC about this bill, and he did not flag additional concerns about their ability to absorb their involvement in Their

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: on very distinct staff folks. The senate bill was they had the power to stop anyone from using too much electricity. So but I'd like to be sure of that since this is a new experiment, and it it could have wide ranging impact on everyone else's rates. So, we wanna make sure we do look at this.

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: And those are good questions. One more note on on permit and permit fee revenue. I'll just note that both of the implicated agencies for permit review, the land use review board and ANR indicated that these would fit under existing permit structures. The ANR has commercial permits that this would likely fall under. The only other piece that I will note for the committee, and this is of of less interest to your jurisdiction, but from the kind of appropriations and agency staffing demands point of view, generally, agencies indicated they had sufficient staffing to meet the directives of this bill. Two exceptions to that were that the Public Service Department had testified in favor of the $50,000 appropriation to support their involvement with the decommissioning task force. That is contemplated, I believe, in section five or six. And additionally, the Agency of Natural Resources flagged that their involvement in reviewing PFAS data and monitoring submissions from regulated data centers would be

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: a significant administrative burden from their point of view that may require additional resources. And maybe we could deal with those appropriations when we actually have a project that wants to come here, which may or may not happen. That's correct. There are probably busier states to cite these in.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: And I have two people following me earlier in that one egg and water mess. They just watch those. Yeah. These bigger ones though are Yeah.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: The smaller ones that they Yeah. Okay. Alright. So some agencies would need some money to regulate once something showed up. Is that okay?

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: That was ANR's addition to the discussion, around PFAS monitoring.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. They back, and it was really light up and talking well. Hurry up. Okay. Alright. Thank you.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: You're a battle. You're really going on to colon and age seven or 10, the NAFTA lady to defining electricity and electricity deteriorating facilities. And I believe this is the other one that natural resources taken this for them. They're already I don't remember.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: They have She had a walk around.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: They have two they might like to change. And it might be no. I think it's $9.40. That's the negative. That's one half of it. Okay.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: LJ Casper from the legislative council.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: So I was here on Friday with you all on 07:10. I heard from the P and E state. Okay. That's right. So refresh our memories in about five minutes because that was Friday. I wasn't here. And said to Hardy wasn't here. Two minute thirty thousand, oh this is the one with decommissioning. So, to clarify, this bill has one topic and it's just amending the definition of plant as used to define renewable energy facilities. It is only for renewable programs that metering standard offer and tier. That's right. They have mentioned drive wetting. Yes, shared infrastructure versus separate infrastructure. The POC pitched a separate idea they would also like to be added to this bill, it is not in this bill, that is regarding their Okay, authority for that we took a fair amount testimony on. This one is just the definition. Last year, issues regarding the exact definition of plans have come up over the years and been litigated. Last year, in one of the bills, you asked PUC to meet with the stakeholders and provide a suggested, updated This is about a

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: suggestion. Yes.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. And this one It's a very narrow issue. It is. So if you have one road that robs, you know, one driveway between two plants, it could count as one. Right? You don't have to have a separate drive or counts as two. Yes. If it's done at different times, you wouldn't have to put in a separate road and a separate power transmission line, which would save everybody to home. Mhmm. Yes. Okay. It's a good point. Can I just ask yes? This h nine forty? Yeah. We've signed that. Oh,

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: was like, okay, this is

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: not looking. 940, I think, is the next one. It's that. That's actual resources. Yes. That has

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: a couple paragraphs in it

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: that are overlapping with 325. Yes.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. So let's go on to 09:40. I think 07:10 we can keep. Alright. Maybe go down. Alright. So h 940, which we also briefly talked about briefly on Friday night Yes. Is the miscellaneous bill from House Energy. It has three topics in it. Amending the authority to use thermal assist funds temporarily for Burlington Electric Department. Burlington Electric Department gets these funds every three years, and they have a specific defined set of things they can use them on, but because of their overlapping jurisdiction with rock gas systems, they would like to be able to use this funds for something else, slightly more than they currently are used for. Okay. Including transportation programs and geothermal test wells. Okay. I remember that. And it is a three year extension. They have previously been doing this under a pilot program for six years. They would like to We duplicate tests heard about that economic development. Just wanna think. Is a I think it's a private one. Alright. Oh my gosh. Okay.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: I'm sorry if you said this on Friday. Don't remember. Where are these funds coming from? And that probably is why we bought them into a certain format.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yes. The thermal energy and process fuel efficiency funds come from the sale of RGGI credits, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative credits, as well as the savings awarded in the forward capacity market bidding. ISO New England has their annual auction. Vermont regularly bids in zenith amounts. They bid in savings. Of that, we get a chunk of money every year from the grid because of the amount of efficiency we can provide. This was the thing we were told we were crazy, they would never agree to, and this committee set it down, and they agreed, if you don't use electricity, work on efficiency, then the grid saves because the grid doesn't have to build more generation and more transmission money. Transmission. Transmission. Transmission. We get that. We get a payment, and that goes into the thermal. The electric charges can only be used for electric efficiency. Yes. So the electric efficiency charge on your electric bill is a different pot of funds. The thermal funds have a limited use, largely weatherization. The proposal still requires them to use at least 60% of those funds on weatherization,

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: but does allow them to use the rest of

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: the funds on other projects that might not already qualify. Thomas and Mike,

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: then get into these. I

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: need fuel for this. Okay. Are those are it's community fuel. Okay.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: That's with

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: similar numbers. If

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I have Smith's correctly,

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: they Burlington Electric had some charging stations they were putting up with the They do some of that but they also offer an incentive for electric vehicle purchase. So that's what they were using the money on and this bill would allow them A limited portion

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: of it can be used

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: for this. This would allow them to do more? Some more, yes. Some more. Okay. All right, let's keep going. The last section of this bill, section five, is the section that repeals the Telecommunications Advisory Board, which hasn't met since 2021. That was the thing I knew we had to do. Okay? Yes. And then the sections in between, two, three, four, are about updating the enhanced energy planning process for regional planning commissions and municipalities so that it is more streamlined into the Land Use Review Board approval process. Which is why Natural Resources would like this. So, we could say yes to section one and yes, no, or maybe the last section and send this bill over to Natural Resources with the report of the Committee on Finance intact, which shouldn't take us very long. Maybe put this on for a vote if you can draft us something unless someone you would like probably should hear from Burlington away.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I was gonna say, have we heard from them yet? No.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: They're scheduled for Wednesday along with the public service department. Wait. Isn't this Wednesday? Next Wednesday. Next Wednesday. There's another one next week. Have to start typing things up to get them out of here. So that I would like if we could tell them it's coming. Data centers, think we ought to take a shot at that and then release it to natural resources to look at the money, the water plant and conservation section. And then

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: Was that you do wanna fix that?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I think 710 is ours. The 727 is the data centers. 7. And we need to look at impact on the grid and rates for everybody else. I'm still trying to figure out if it's not much in employment. I guess some in town, and therefore the education fund would get some property tax increases, and I don't know how people know from what I've read other states have given them, like, no property taxes. They've given them all kinds of tax breaks, which they are now Trying to call them that. Being they're regretting because they do have impacts. And if they are putting in the 200 employees that another kind of building of a similar size could do when they're putting in 20 just to walk around, make sure the machines aren't running, we may want to look at that too. So that one, we we will take more testimony on seventwenty seven. We will maybe vote out seventen. We'll see if Burlington Electric can zoom in sooner. They can zoom in. What'd be from that? 09:40? Friday. 09:40. 09:40. Yes. 40 is yes. No.

[James (Joint Fiscal Office)]: 710 is the I have

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: 710 is okay. That's silly. That one we can do. And then 940, if we get Burlington Electric to come talk to us, we can probably do our section of that bill and move that. Okay. So let's see if we can how soon can they really don't really have space. That's the problem. Let's see. What? Friday? Let's At one. That's just. We got one, two, three, four, five. See, can come in at 03:00 on Friday. It shouldn't take more than a half an hour.

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: I think it's a. These guys are no. They

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: yeah. They know. Okay. Yeah. Let's because we have next week, I'd like to vote out the DFR bill. We need to we have a big education financing fee money bill there. I don't know what is coming out of transportation, but I know they're looking for funding, and I know they're looking at the purchase and use tax, which will take 10 well, it's 10,000,000 the first year and an additional 10,000,000 every year out of the end fund. They need it. We need it, but that will be coming over here eventually if they do it. What's I don't think miscellaneous tax has a lot in it that's overly controversial. It is going through with the tax department, but I think the only thing the House added was decoupling the corporate tax so we don't lose $25,000,000 that the governor figured we had when he did his budget and the House we had when they did their budget. So that that's that will take us a while to go through, but I and I'm not gonna release that until we're all finished, but we did have that one ready to go. So we will see $8.98. Natural resources, what that one? That one we will go through. And hopefully it'll be a little less painful than the last time we dealt with this issue. So that think is it. If anyone think about all of that. Look at the bills. Let me know what you'd like to go through, you know, if any of that doesn't work for you.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Then if you This is our proposal of an earlier bill we did today, but can we hear more about these association health plans, or are you guys all experts in

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: No. We can hear about they are they're here. Okay. And we will have the VFR talk to us next. They basically, as somebody came in and said it's GoFundMe for health insurance, it's like you all agree that you all will chip in and pay for each other's healthcare. Right. But there's no state regulation, there's no requirement. I just looked at first page of this Colorado and it's on our website. They've got associations with 170 more people in them. That's a very small insurance pool. And

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I was surprised that a lot of the testimony today was really in favor

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: of those. Not here. Association health plans. You might be thinking of health plans. I'm thinking health care Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We will get a one zero one, our health association, and that should come from was our or or a gin, I think. Yeah. And maybe DFR and see if we can get association health plans one on one. The chamber of commerce used to be pretty much did. Every small business in the state joined the chamber. Okay. And they because they had so many members were able to join the large pool. And large pool has, we don't regulate what their plans have to offer, so they could cut out things that other plans have to cover, They get a better rate because they're bigger pool, their morbidity is better, which means how much they use it, not how much they die. Right? So we will yeah. We could do that. Here was it was out they were outlawed by Obamacare because the goal was to get everybody on the exchange, so they said no. From one came back in and basically said, you could join a chamber of commerce thing in California if you wanted. I mean, it was pretty wide open. We took a lot of testimony. Basically, what it like here? No. Basically, we stranded this independent, the small individual market that were facing a very painful decision as to who we heard, small businesses of the independents, and the federal government came back and said, no. We've changed our mind. It'll only be in a very limited circumstance. That's where we are now, but they have been saying they're going to allow them again. Okay. So we're now talking about will we allow them and under what circumstances. K. So it's a health insurance pool. Right. It works for small employers. It doesn't work for the individual market because it strands them. Right. Can I just recap what I think you said about these bills? Yes. Or $8.07 it's okay. But for 8 I just wanna make sure that you are not asking me at the moment for any amendments. I think I asked for why.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: There was something about the PUC wanting to have decommissioning.

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. So the so the the the public utility commission has asked about adding decommissioning authority in page seven ten. Are you interested in doing that?

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: We in decommissioning of what?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Primarily solar panels, but also other There's always pressures going on and there may be a solution. So before we ask you to draft anything, let's let the industry and the PUC work on that. So we will sit on that one for a little while. And then for next Okay. Week. And then

[LJ Casper (Legislative Counsel)]: 09:40 you're gonna try to

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: get Burlington Electric and the department in? Yes. And then try to power that. It was generating which we had to do away with the commission that hasn't met in five years. The telecommunication advisory board is also in there. Yep. That is in 07:10, right? 09:40. 940. Okay. That's the one section there we need to do and the first section Burlington Electric. Burlington Electric. So we will have Burlington Electric in and we will, that was the two well, doing away with that board was the amendment I asked you to do. The tell what I'm Sorry. And

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yes. So I

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: don't It is in there. Okay. Yep. So I think you're just waiting for testimony. We will hear from them, then we will release this next door. Once we hear from the PUC and probably the utilities, maybe Pepsi.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Vice Chair)]: I don't remember any other men that talked though, do you?

[Senator Ann Cummings (Chair)]: No, that was the two, that was the one thing that was really easy to do and we'll get that released. Electric generating facility is Yeah. Works, and then we will start working on data centers and it sounds like next door is working on data centers and at some point we'll merge the two. That work? Mhmm. Okay. Take you to what you need.