Meetings
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[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Thank you. We are back and dear. Thank you. We're ready for getting back on time. We're gonna take up s 2 12, which is potable water and wastewater systems connections. And we have heard we wanted to hear from the Agency of Natural Resources. We walked it through. We heard from the lead, I think, or this is one the lead didn't get in for? We have. We've been trying to do this for my entire time in this building. I think we may have reached a viable solution, but we did want to hear from the agency of natural resources. And this is the system where in order to hook up to a municipal water or wastewater system, you need a municipal permit and state permit. And you're trying to Permit. Keep track of who's closest to what where. But at the same time, it is two fees and it does get annoying, at least at the local level at times. So come on up and see if we we have Welcome. Just introduce yourself. Senator Gulick is up there. Now I do have a quorum. There she is. Okay. Alright. I have a quorum, so we can go.
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: Okay. Good afternoon. Hope you all had a good and productive town meeting week, and thank
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: you for adding back in
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: to talk about water and wastewater connection permits. For the record, Brian Redman, the director for the Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, which is in the Agency of Natural Resources Department of Environmental Conservation. A high level overview of the work, the key piece of the bill is, as you already alluded to, Chair Cummings, is a new type of general permit for water supply and wastewater connection permits that really focuses on reducing administrative processing time and cost. Associated with that, new permit is a revised fee structure that consolidates our existing fee categories into three new fee categories. It reduces the The fees structures. Correct. And reduces the fees across when compared to our existing fee schedule across the board. We are projecting a small revenue impact there that we feel will be mitigated by some of the repeals of the exemptions in in the bill, but projecting roughly around a $100,000 impact, which we think is is manageable. I appreciate the committee's extra time to evaluate the revenue impacts associated with the designations passed under act one eighty one. Unfortunately, based on my research, at this point in the process, it's really too early to accurately quantify these impacts. We do know that the number of parcels that will qualify for the reduced wastewater fee going forward is going to increase, and there will be associated revenue impacts from those expansions, but it's just really too early to be able to provide that information at this point in time. I welcome the opportunity to come and report back to the committee in the future once more information and data is known. I wish I had a little bit more information for all of you today. And I'll stop there and have to try to answer any questions.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. So the fees in the bill right now are your best estimate as to what it will cost, but until you actually get it up and running, you won't know for sure. But we used to adjust these on a regular schedule, but if you are especially if you're running short, you will be back these are Ted is here to talk to us about these. Mittenden, any questions?
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Water and wastewater? Yeah, see. Yep.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay, that was easy.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: What happened? Are we just asking if
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: we have questions for you? Yes. And then we've got a fiscal note coming in. We've already Michael O'Grady has been in, we have the bill under his name on our website, and then we have Ted coming in with a physical note on the fees, but we understand that till this is up and running, we it may take some adjustment.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: This is the master permit thing?
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: General
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: permit. General permit. That's the word
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yes.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I'm looking for. Close. Point permit. Point permit. Not too. Okay. No. That's just Thank you. Yeah. Thank everybody who's working on this. Yeah. And just the note on the on the website.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Great. Great fiscal office. Given that I have technological challenges and you have the fiscal note, and the fiscal note is just words. Okay. Would you like me to share?
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yes. Okay.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Well If you but if you it helps people at home. I have
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: a phone before. This new link.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Do you have any technical issues with your laptop? Do want me to share it with you? I should be able to pull it up relatively. I think we'll see how that goes. 02:12 is
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yeah. Okay. But I will hopefully be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Oh. So wanna preface this by saying that, yes, we've emailed quite a bit back and forth with d e books of DEC Yeah. And concur with their read of the bill. Joining the meeting now. There are really three fee impacts here to summarize. The first is the creation of a administrative fee for municipalities that have opted to do adopt this partial delegation of authority and are handling connection permits at the local level. Don't know how many my understanding from talking with folks is that only a limited number of municipalities are going to avail themselves of this delegation of authority. So the amount of fee collections with that, if a 100 would be relatively small, so that's a positive revenue impact. On the negative revenue impact side, the new general permit would have fees that are lower than under current law. As shown in table one, compares with our different categories of sign flows. Significantly lower. They are, I would say, much lower, particularly once you get to larger projects. Okay. Yes. And for yes. The larger projects are really where you're seeing much lower fee revenue there. Will emphasize that the process and started by act one eighty one of designating both neighborhoods and type two centers or category two centers that we receive that we'd be able to in those areas, we'd have folks paying $50 standard fee for in our permits. Since we don't know where those areas are, the $100,000 is really an up to amount based on what we know about the current system. Given the process in January where areas that are eligible for center or neighborhood designation would be mapped and then approved by the Land Use Review Board because that process is kind of implicit. Those areas will get mapped and approved as opposed to local jurisdictions applying for neighborhood jurisdiction. We're gonna see those areas increase, and we don't know what the the folks who are applying for permit now who in the future, right, would be paying a much lower than $50 fee. So that makes our ability to estimate and put a burn number on it pretty much impossible at this stage, and those the the new designation process could be happening before this new general permit goes into effect. Okay. So that's the complication there. And then finally, as Brian mentioned, the bill would repeal exemptions from state permitting that are currently in the rule. So we have two positives, one negative in fee revenue. The negative is probably going win out here, but can't tell you an exact amount. Okay.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So, I assume you'll see us next year, the year after.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Once we know where the maps are, once we know the areas that will be mapped out, we go ahead and absolutely do an estimate.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Tier one, tier two, tier three maps? Or
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: It's part of that mapping process. Yep.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. Because it's Douglas administration, we did some neighborhood rules that yeah. This is a different okay. And that is definitely a work in process.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Absolutely. Yes. And we did do our due diligence and reached out to BCGI because they can frequently work on this front. And they because the process isn't complete, there's really no way for
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Us to do the work.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: So this is our best guesstimate. They're going down, which is rare and will help, I think, in building costs. And if we didn't find the right numbers, I'm sure it would be back with an adjustment so that we can cover costs.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Yes. And I will note that if e report process that is in the statute and the new process that involves JFO is to be continued. ANR is next up for fee reports. So the next fee report that you all will be getting will be including ANR to have
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: More detail about the full the landscape.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I'm sure if they're losing money, they'll come see us. Mhmm. Okay. Questions committee?
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Alright. And I don't need to
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you I'm on the agenda.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: You want a motion on that bill or we're not ready for
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: it now?
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: If you're ready for it, it's up to you. I have this bill and the child early childhood educators bill two twelve, which is this one, and two zero six, which is the previous previous bill, the child care licensure, educator's licensing bill. We are not dealing with the tax exemption and scholarships and all that. We're definitely not ready to make a decision on that. Are we ready to make a decision on this one? From a potable water supply? Potable water. I
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: move that are we ready for that? The court now has
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: his Alright. Alright.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I move that we approve s two twelve version,
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: and is it 6.1? As
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: passed by the Senate Natural Resources and Energy Committee.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Assuming that's you've got that original from that model. Assuming that's the number of others. Okay. Senator Hardy has moved that we approve s two twelve version 6.1. That's said to us by the Senate Natural Resources Committee. Is there any discussion? Are there any amendments? If not, following the advice of the secretary of the senate, I'm going to say, all those in favor, aye. Aye. That is I call that 700, and we would like to report that. You want it, Scott? Sure. I'll take it. Okay.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Are you reporting for Ann Cummings? For natural resources?
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: I think it's Ann Cummings. Ann Cummings. Okay. I'll just so the next one on the agenda is that's two zero six. Get the papers passed. Two zero six, this is an act relating to licensure of early childhood educators by the Office of Professional Regulation. Our area germane ness in there is the fees. Again, this is what they think it will cost to regulate it, but like all new fees, they deserve the right to come back and ask for an amendment, but this is this is our starting point.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: So I move are we ready for that? I'm ready. Okay. I move s two zero six draft 3.1, I believe it is, as passed by the Senate Healthy Law Fair Committee. Yeah.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay, Senator Hardy has moved that we approve S30 S206 or 3.1, which is 3.1 as sent to us by the Senate Health and Welfare Committee. Are there any amendments? Any discussion? Okay.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: I think the discussion, at least from my standpoint, I alluded to as we talked about the bill, I'm concerned about whether or
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: not it adds enough value to warrant
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: cost. I'm also concerned in general about increasing the size of state government, the amount of bureaucracy that we have in state government directly and into that club. And so I will be voting no.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. Any other discussion? You didn't get all those things emailed to you?
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: It's it's gonna read them overnight.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Right now, I'm I'm gonna be a no. Doesn't mean that won't change. There's doctor folks at the center that I'm on and my kids go to just to get a little bit more information from them and their thoughts personally on it. I just, you know, put
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: off voting on this.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: No, I'm not going hold up to that. And I don't think we'll
[Randy Brock (Member)]: get enough information by tomorrow.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah, no, probably you won't.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: And I do have large concerns about the family provider part. I think it's gonna if you don't get it in the next two years, we kind of take away that ability for a person five years from now that wants to do it, they would then have to go through a totally different track to be able to have that family provider area, which is more you know, intense than going through a family provider right now. I think in an age where childcare is hard to come by and certainly trying to get affordable childcare, I don't wanna restrict the ability for folks to provide that service. Those are evens I've been open right now.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Okay. Any further discussion?
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: I think you made a comment earlier. This was a mill last year and it never got what what happened to it? Did it die on a wall somewhere?
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I believe we passed it in this in the in the Nash, government operations committee. It came here. I think we passed it in here. I think it even passed on the floor, and then
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: it's in the house.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: It was a little unclear to me why a new bill was introduced, and we just didn't do that one. I'm not
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: sure why. It was the continuation.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: And I was last time that I remember. Right?
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Was people jumping over here. Yeah. You know people Yes. Yes. Yourself the record.
[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State; former OPR Director)]: For for the record, Lauren Herbert, deputy secretary of state, there is a senate rule because of the status of the way that bill went. It didn't it passed the senate floor, but it didn't it didn't have its individual bill number at that time because it was combined with the OPR bill. So it was combined with the OPR bill. It passed as a package, the two together. And then the early childhood education, because of timing issues and the fact that the house hadn't really heard testimony on it, it got cut out. But there's a senate bill that the issue can't be The same bill can't be heard twice in the senate. So we needed a new bill to number technical. It was a technicality. We needed a new bill number and some areas of material change. And actually should be good. Yes. And so it should be fine this year.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: It did not just fly through health and welfare. No. Did. You know? Like, oh, well, we did this last year. We took Kofi's testimony.
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: It's kind of insulted.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: So, it's two point zero.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Okay.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Further discussion. Can I just ask Senator Mattos a If your concern, I heard two things from you? Is your primary concern about home care providers? No, so at
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: our center we have, you know, employees that are coming in, usually like their first job out of high school, things like that, I don't want to discourage somebody that has to go do one hundred and twenty hours of work before going to start this new job that they might not end up staying at because for whatever reason it's just not for them. And we have a lot of we have a hard time hiring folks, and I don't know if having a different title is gonna make it easier for that. When we have programs in place like CTE centers and getting people into the field is great, and I don't know if that, you know, your job title under licensure is gonna change that, and I wanna give those folks that opportunity with the least barrier of entry to get in there, because you need service You know, in that realm, you'll see people going from center to center, just trying to find that happy medium on what works for them, but And the family and provider side of this.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yeah. Well, because on that, the first thing you might ask them because my understanding, and
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: I think one of you said this, is if you go through a CTE program, you would have the hours necessary to be an ECE one. So, they would come out of high school with that credential already available to them. And I'm just thinking of the person that doesn't know what they want to do. You're asking about 18 year old person what they want to do they're They done might not know when they're 16 or 17 if they want to do it, so they might not go through the program.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yeah, and the home care provider thing,
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: there could be an amendment that needs to be.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yeah, and again, it's doctor free. Okay,
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: think about that.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: That's why I say I'm not a new no.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Yeah, no, no. This is fast because we're all supposed to be looking at the fees. But if we could take longer time, we can do that too until Friday. No. We have next week.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: It's gonna go across the hall too.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Right? Yes. It does. But they have next week too, so we could give extra time. Okay. Is there any further discussion? If not, on this one, I'm gonna ask the court to call a roll.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Senator Chittenden? No. Senator Beck? No. Senator Hardy?
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Yes. Senator Brock? No. Senator Gulick?
[Martine Larocque Gulick (Member)]: Yes.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Senator Mattos? No. Senator Cummings?
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: The vote right now is three three.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Not a
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: vote. I vote yes.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Four three zero. Is that the
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: first party line split vote?
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: This is the first split vote, but yeah. I mean This year? Or It's the old it's the first
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: one I've broken a tie on.
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yeah. Mhmm. Okay. That's the third question.
[Ted Barnett (Fiscal Analyst, Joint Fiscal Office)]: Alright. More debate when it's asked
[Bryan Redmond (Director, Drinking Water & Groundwater Protection Division, VT ANR DEC)]: to send me
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: about her. That's a yes.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Send to Hardy.
[Randy Brock (Member)]: Information. Good effort.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: Now Well, I think it's gonna be the presenter in the in the are
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: you presenting? You
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: wanna do anything that okay. So you would well,
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: I
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: don't know. She's not here to bring it upstairs. Oh.
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: I can, I mean, I can do the fee? It's just the fees in it, right?
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: Yeah. Is that okay, Senator Gulick?
[Ruth Hardy (Member)]: That's fine, Ruth. Just don't upstage me, please. I'll barely say anything. Thank
[Christopher Mattos (Clerk)]: you.
[Ann Cummings (Chair)]: Many, we have done our work for the day. Some of us have remade admitted for making across the hall.