Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We're live.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It's the Senate Education Committee on the afternoon of May 12. We have two bills with us in front of us today. Start with S227, which we worked on Friday, and left counsel with a I think just a couple of quick things to interject, and that has happened. So for the record?

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: Good afternoon. Rick Segal with the office of council. I think you have a

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: If I could, have a question. What what happened on the 7th Floor? Probably worth saying because H95 was originally on the agenda for today, Senator Bongartz chair moved to relieve the Education Committee of H955 and pass it to the Senate Finance Committee. This is two times in this biennium that the committee's efforts for essentially four and a half months were, I guess, ignored. The first time last year this time, the senior senator from Addison moved on the floor to relieve the committee of the bill and revert back to the as housed version. That was a big surprise, kind of upsetting at the time. Now in the Senate chamber, you've relieved the committee of the bill, the bill that we've been working on now for two years. And I'd just like to offer the opportunity to explain to the committee what happened and why we just wasted another four and a half months of time on a very significant bill. What is the expectation of what the Senate Finance Committee is going to do with this topic? Again, I'll go back to a comment I made on Friday that the Finance Committee has turned an education bill into a tax bill. What happened to our education transformation effort?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: When the committee pretty clearly, we had such limited time, the committee was divided three-three on Friday. The pro tem to committee, found out last night. And so but but the the finance committee is going to take the version that we've been working on and make that the foundation. So our committee so our work is, in fact, not for not the foundation. In fact, our bill will be substituted for the house bill. Let me put it that way.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Well, I appreciate the explanation. I just, very disappointed to, again, sat in committee three hours a day for four and a half months, and we end up here.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But I think in some ways you can make, you know, you can make the argument that our work is actually now the foundation going forward. But we have that last year at this time.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I don't want get

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: into it. I understand.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Just want to express complete I understand.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: However, I hope this year is different because I suppose the last year, our work is the foundation going forward. Thanks. So, 02/27. 02/27.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: I'll share my screen. So, what I've done and a little kind of procedural as well on 02/27, is this bill currently what the Senate has is a House proposal of amendment to review. You all don't currently have the bill in your committee. So I think it's been on the calendar for the past couple of Senate days. And so what the committee can do is suggest an amendment via straw poll that one or all six of you, if you wanted to, could be on the amendment. Now, what you have in front of you, all six of you are on here, you don't have to be. That is just how I created the draft. You can always discuss that you wanna have your name removed if you don't wanna be on the amendment. So it's not gonna be a committee amendment, although all six of you are on there. It's obviously something that you all support. So that's the background for what you see. This is a proposed amendment to the House proposal amendment. Based on Friday's meeting, this is my understanding of where the committee landed. And I'll go over these two instances of amendment. The first one, there was a question about the independent schools. And I'll go to the House language here so we can look at it in context. So, we're on page three of the as passed by house or the proposal by the house. This is the student information privacy section where schools and independent schools cannot collect or request information regarding citizenship, immigration, and other information. The comment I think Senator Williams brought up was independent schools. Does this mean that they have to be approved under state law? And the answer was no. The way that this bill is structured is the definition of school includes public schools and independent schools that are approved. However, in this context, this one time in the bill where this phrase independent schools is used does not imply approved. It could also mean the schools that are not approved under state law. So my suggestion.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: What I just wanna maybe Mark can weigh in if I'm not understanding what you're saying correctly, but I think it's the opposite. It's that even if they don't receive public dollars, they all have to be approved to operate in Vermont under the 2,200 series rules at the Board of Education.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: So that may be true. Guess what I'm saying is that in this, the way this term is not defined in this bill, so we're going to the Title 16 definition of independent schools, which is not the 166 cross reference that's used elsewhere in the bill.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: That's, it's very

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: All independent schools that are operating in

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the Correct, correct.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: That's the implication here, because we haven't have it defined in that way. So, the proposed fix is actually striking out independent and just leaving it at school. So, it's a school districts and schools. The way that would work is school is defined in the bill as a public school or an approved independent school pursuant to 166 of Title 16. So, also in case there's any confusion there that if it's school districts and schools that are prohibited from XYZ. I think that addresses at the very least the independent school question. And in case schools were going rogue outside of the school district policy, they would also be now included in this restriction. If that makes sense. That's the first instance. The second instance is down in the law enforcement section, subsection D, subdivision number two at the top of page five. So, there was discussion about the a specific area of a school, the warrant line four, a judicial warrant that authorizes entrance into a specific area of the school and names a specific individual located within the school who's subject to search or arrest. The proposed change is striking out authorizes entrance into and then change that that a warrant that authorizes entrance into a specific area of the school. So really just removing the term specific specific and areas. Excuse me. I'm looking at two screens here. Striking out a specific area and replacing that with specific areas. So, entrance to specific areas of the school, and then the rest stays the same. I believe that's what the committee was suggesting.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Those

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: are the two that I believe votes to committee board on board with.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Are we good? Are we clear?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Are we reporting this, right? Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Alright. So we have a motion to well, actually, we don't need a motion. It's actually a matter of who wants to be on this amendment. Right.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'd like to stay on it.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Object to it, but I maybe I need to ask the pro tem how I should vote here in committee. Again, just very disappointed on age nine fifty five. It's a ridiculous process. I'll hold my name off this.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I will still have to report a vote on the floor?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No. Actually, it's just gonna be an amendment by three people in one of them.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay, I thought I'm still supposed to report a straw poll.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I don't think so, just the people on the firearm's

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, it's optional. It's optional.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay, well, I mean, I could run into issues on the floor if we don't have a straw poll and I'm supposed to represent how the committee feels about it and Terry's not here, right?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Terry's not here.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So what if we did this drop hole on the amendment supporting it first, and then people can decide about I mean, it could just be my name. It doesn't even have to have anybody else's name on it.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, you're right. We probably should have installed it. So those in favor of suggesting these changes, concurring with further proposal amendment as shown here? I guess raise your hand.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Five to two.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay, five zero one.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you wanna just do it as one person? Or do you wanna have the three on? Probably better if it's just you?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Just doesn't fight weird. Okay.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: Let's talk about five. Just Senator Ram Hinsdale. Unless,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: you know, it was Senator Hashim's brilliant editing

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm working on my paper. I'm happy to add you back on. No,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: it'll just be me. Okay,

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: so then, thank you.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So then we're on to

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: h six fifty. Yeah. So once again, Rick Segal with the office of Legislative Council. I have draft through point one of h six fifty. Your printout may show May 1. Did not go back in time. It's supposed to be May 11, just forgot the extra one on the date. So I have corrected that with the committee assistant. Okay. So no changes to page one of the bill. That's still a technical correction. That has not been changed.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Actually, me interrupt. Rick and I talked yesterday to make sure we were ready for today and looked at talked about where we thought we left off, and then I thought about a couple of things just to try out here. Hopefully it'll help. Okay, sorry.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: No, that helps. Two, there is a highlight on the section heading. I mentioned last time I left the phrase enforcement on the section heading. So, the committee removed enforcement, I also removed enforcement off the section heading. That's why it's highlighted. On page three, so that's the only change to section one, is that just the enforcement technical change. No other changes to the registration system that you would be implementing. Section two is the two year pause on chatbots and schools. The word pause highlighted, it replaces prohibition. The chair and I spoke, it seemed like pause made more sense based on the way the language is going. And at the bottom of page three, the intent section, the original or the last version made it sound like all chatbots are causing children to engage in academic silence. So you didn't want that implication out there. So certain chatbots have paused changing language a little bit there in the intense section. On page four, reworking the intense language further on lines two. Therefore, the general assembly enacts a two year pause on the usage of chatbots, with principals and heads of schools having the authority to exempt chatbots they deem to be educationally warranted. And this pause will provide schools with the opportunity to research, test, and endorse certain chatbots to ensure the safety of students. Reflecting what's to come here in the actual exemptions, exceptions part of the section. No change in the provision. No shall use or no school shall allow student to use a chatbot until 06/30/2028. And then in the subsection C, subdivision one, a school principal or head of school shall have the authority to grant an exception to the prohibition, provided that the chatbot is educationally warranted. There was additional language there that had the principal or head of school tracking each ed tech that they approved, and then sending that list to the AOE upon the AOE requesting the list of the exempted chatbots. That's been removed. No other change to subdivision two or in the definitions.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: There's one thing I wanna note. Going

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: back to the exceptions. The education warranted that previously was that chatbot is strictly necessary for educational purposes. So I think it's pretty big change. Very, very narrow exception previously. Now it's much more of the opinion of the principal or head of school that they believe Mhmm. That the chatbot is warranted educationally. Okay. Like I said, no other changes to the chatbot section. The working group section, a few changes on page six. Subdivision one had the working group consult with the superintendents, which they're already part of the consultation on lines three and four. So, I didn't think it made sense to consult them again. They're already part of the overall working group's task. So, just creating that list of EdTech products. You have AOE, the Superintendent Association, and the Independent School Association already being consulted. Number two is being added. This was in the AOE study as it came from the house. And the committee last time decided probably should include that in the working group's task is to review the registrations. There may not be a lot of registrations because this will take effect July 1. So, when this working group meets in the fall, you may not have a whole lot of registrations, but maybe you have more than you expect. Number four is new. Recommend whether students or parents of students should have the right to opt out of using education technology products as part of their education. That was a committee suggestion last time. And the reply is new, but it really just kind of structuring the rest of the tasks. Because five is all about ed tech certification. And I didn't want that to get kind of confused in the rest of the list. So, the working group really has a few things. They're gonna create a list of edtech products. Consult the secretary of state about the registration of those companies doing that technology. Interviewing stakeholders about safety of edtech products. The opt out provision, whether that makes sense for parents to be able to opt their student out, their children out of using EdTech. And then finally, the certification of EdTech. So to me, there's four or five different major tasks of this working group. And those are the changes. The act would still take effect, like I said, July 1. It is a strike all amendment, I just wanna make sure that's clear.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Questions? Thoughts?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think it's a good piece of legislation.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you're happy with those suggestions?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We want one one place on this where we still we change prohibition to pause, and then we use the word prohibition again on page four. Should that say pause?

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: For the section heading? Line line seven. Line seven. Yeah. I I don't if you just wanna use the word pause, but you could use maybe chatbot usage, pause of chatbot usage, something. I don't think the word pause works the same as prohibition, but I I see.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Maybe it doesn't matter.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, let us actually, don't we try that? You guys Sure. So what was it? Just off the top of

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: my head, you know, chat usage of chatbot pause or chatbot usage pause, one of those? Okay.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: don't think we can do any more work on it.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Let's up the motion.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Aye.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: I would move to vote

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: draft 3.1 out favorable.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: With that little handwritten change on

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: page four, line seven, crossing out the word prohibition and adding in an extent instead saying chat box usage pause.

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: So it'd 3.2.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: 3.2. Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. So, normally does the role, right? So,

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: we can just maybe maybe senator Hashim can do it. Got it. Yeah. We're ready.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I could. Just a few words. I understand the intent of the bill. I find it a bit founded on on founded theaters and reactionary. I support I'm going to vote no, and I'll explain why. I always support the efforts of the the working group to look at these questions as opposed to introducing prohibitions and such prior to the working groups. Just wanted to

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: explain that, but

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I do appreciate the effort.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Not for the sake of trying to exchange my friend, just that whole set of years we found the middle ground in allowing the principal at any school to I just

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: don't believe a principal needs to be evaluating every piece of software coming through the school that might or might not contain a chatbot. Just think it's they've been teachers with their consult or their leadership team can figure out which, in the interim of the working group's results, should or shouldn't be used.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I would just say in a different light, Senator Williams isn't here, but he was seeking the opt out. I think this is in between being reactionary and trying to figure out how to reject a lot of things whole cloth. And trying to recognize that even the, I mean, I even talked to some of our stakeholders who are represented in emails we received, who indicated today, they agree that technology is changing very quickly. Most schools are using a handful of tools where it would be wildfire national news if they changed how they operate all of a sudden, like Google Classroom. But that if it's not a good place for experimentation and for trying things out, especially with our younger kids. So I just think it's something right now as we try to figure out who a good actor is in this space, that we are monitoring and paying close attention and someone can answer to parents at school board meetings who have questions about something their kid's coming home with, etcetera.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. I under we all understand where we

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: are. So Ready to go? Yep.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Senator Hashim? Yes. Senator Heffernan?

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: AOE said they had a pretty good handle on this. And I've been tormented ever since they said that at the beginning.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Have you talked to them

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: since?

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Yeah. I'm not really, did you?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah, I mean, would say I've tried to talk to all the stakeholders about what they do feel like they have a good handle on. A lot of what they kept referring to was partnering with Vitalearn and SPDC, I believe, which is a national consortium on data privacy. We looked at things that is decertification, that I thought were not appropriate for a lot of aged kids. So they, I would say they were referring to a lot of tools that they don't take responsibility for the quality of those tools. That's what we heard from AOE when we.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Agree with that statement. And then I think about what senator Weeks says is that, you know, we entrust our teachers to make the right choices and that now now we're saying, well, maybe not. We need the principal to give the the the final okay to see if that them are my concerns with it. I'll say yes for now, but I I I do have a lot of concerns about it. And when it comes to a floor vote, it might not be so willing.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Thanks for getting it on the committee.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yes. Senator Ram Hinsdale? Yes. Senator Weeks? No. Senator Williams? Senator Bongartz? Yes. So that is

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: four one one. Got out

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: of committee either way. I've been four

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: And who's the reporting?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm happy to report it if you need to.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, that's all we have. Oh, let's go back to the house.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: We'll we'll be together. I I kinda echo what senator this is only my first term, but it's very discouraging that this body worked very hard last year and believe we had to be able out for education change and the powers to be took that away from us. And it sometimes wonder why you're even here if they're gonna make up their mind after the fact of all the work as bipartisan group that we do. It just, it's very frustrating, I'll have to say. A

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: wise mentor of mine, who was the member from Rutland out, Joe Baker, said to me, my first year in the building, if you can't pour your heart and soul into something and throw it away after six months, you can't be here. I took that very seriously because nothing's ever alive or dead. It just changes form. And I think for newer folks, that's harder to appreciate, but you always have the opportunity to revive any language, any concept, it doesn't die, but it does require work outside of the committee process to really get something across the finish line.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: True statement.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: I'll add something to not in any way trying to invalidate what you guys are raising here. And plenty of times I've been frustrated with folks here. But I'm I I think I'm kinda genuinely, honestly confused because I it seemed like from the very beginning of the session, you know, the expectation was that there absolutely wouldn't be other committees looking at the bill, which is pretty typical for something that touches different jurisdictions. I mean, know, s one ninety three, which is a bill I worked on in judiciary for probably three months. You know, that's gone through two different committees in the senate and now it's in four different committees in the House, which was to be expected. But, you know, it's I mean, it seems like it would be expected that this bill that involves a lot of finance jurisdiction would absolutely be going to finance.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, it's not sure.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Two thirds of the bill was there. It's taxable. The one third, which is about education transformation, which was really what we were trying to focus on. I mean, seemed like

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: we had I know. Did our work.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Our work is the is the mill. So it's been taken up in finance.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Try to tell everybody that everything happens in the last two days of the second year of the biennium. Everything, all the hard work you put in before that can inform those last two days, but you have to really prepare yourself for anything being possible. And it just doesn't all get presented to you in unity.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Well, I've literally had stuff blow up in my face. So it's not that big. It's a big deal that the heart that you put into it and then have that mean nothing. It's like we sat through the committee meetings. We listened to the testimony. We did all this, and then it gets handed off to people that did not listen to the same testimony that we have had for two years. So you know? And I know Joe Baker as well. Hopefully, he's

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: gonna be back next year.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: And I get that. That is a lesson I learned. But it's still, you know, I enjoy working with all all of you. And you and I sometimes bump bump heads quite a bit. But we work it out and come to something good and then it goes to another committee. And that's the way it is.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And then it goes to a conference committee. Finance

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: isn't touching our education policy stuff in the same way that we didn't touch the finance tax

[Rick Segal (Legislative Counsel)]: stuff.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Right. So But as I understand it, the changes we made did go over there. So we are no longer calling them CESA sections. They're just groups.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: CESA is mandatory. No, never made those changes. I thought we had. It was the last draft.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Anyone can also bring an amendment to the committee that has possession of a bill. I mentioned I plan to do that on some things that I didn't get to finish on special education.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. So

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You have tools in your toolbox.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. We will be back together maybe I don't

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: know if it's tomorrow or next day. I'll just come over. Oh, okay. So

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I make a request that Daphne send us a calendar invite when those things happen because that makes it easier for me to track?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We usually we may not know when we're

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: coming up so I would say

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: No I mean like it could be twenty minutes over but

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I always feel like how soon. Okay we're adjourned.