Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We are live.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. We're the Senate Education Committee back after an actual extended break. And we have the last order of business for the day is to have the hearing from the Agency of Education on both H-nine thirty and nine thirty one, the miscellaneous bill and the absenteeism bill. And I don't know which one of you wants to go first or how are you gonna do this, but okay, it's Emily. And you are, go ahead.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you so much for inviting me in for the end of the day today. Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Agency of Education. I was gonna speak to you for just a few moments about provisions in H-nine 30, the chronic absenteeism bill, specifically the new language on post enrollment hearings of home study enrollments. So can I direct you to written testimony that the agency submitted under yesterday's date, April 29, follow-up on home study testimony? That's what I'm speaking from today. So as you heard from deputy secretary Briggs Campbell on Tuesday of this week, Several recent developments in the home study landscape and the agency's oversight of those programs have important implications for the language that you are considering in the chronic absenteeism bill related to hearings. You all are aware because I reviewed your discussion that interest and enrollment in home study in Vermont dramatically increased during the COVID-nineteen pandemic, and we have yet to see return to pre pandemic enrollment numbers. As of this time, it is unclear whether we will. The home study statute in Title XVI was changed in 2023 on the Agency of Education's recommendation so that the state was switched to what's known as an enrollment notice homeschool framework. This is a similar approach to what's taken in the majority of states, and we modeled our statute really closely on New Hampshire's homeschooling statute for those 2023 changes. Now, going back a little further prior to those changes, so prior to 2023, the agency utilized two full time positions, one partial FTE, and an additional limited service position that helped us out seasonally during home study enrollment season, all to manage home study paperwork review. With the increase during COVID-nineteen of the number of home study enrollments, that workload became unmanageable under the current statute at the time, and on the agency's review in 2023, it was our recommendation that that really significant use of staff time was not resulting in measurable quality improvement or oversight of the learning happening in those home study programs. So pre pandemic and during the pandemic, because the statute really didn't set AOE up with strong authority to disallow a home study enrollment except in the most extreme cases. What we were doing was being required to review each enrollment for completeness, so as to a certain level of detailed review in each case, but without the teeth to require improvement where we might see a lack of rigor, for example, but the program was meeting minimum quality standards, we were bound by the statute to allow that enrollment to take place, Though, as education professionals, our staff were continually seeing what they might identify as gaps in student learning that were permissible and approvable. So we are in a position pre-twenty twenty three as the agency to say to say this was not the best use of our very limited staff time and made those recommendations for the change to the statute. If the change had not been made in 2023, the agency would have needed to hire several additional staff just to keep up with that paperwork that I've been describing, regardless of any educational value that would have been gained from that additional investment and resources at the agency. So all this clearly the change needed to be made. It brought us in line with the common practices of other states, and enabled that staffing of the agency redirected to other priorities like oversight and support for learning in approved independent schools. So this is all just recapping kind of what you've already heard from Jill earlier this week. Because home study trends have persisted beyond the pandemic and continue to be at higher levels than Vermont traditionally has experienced, we requested in the as introduced version of the chronic absenteeism bill time to examine the larger landscape of home study to understand why families are choosing this option at a greater rate today, how the education system might retain these students in our schools, and what level of oversight would best fit our unique Vermont context here, six years post pandemic. That's the approach that was reflected in the House Pass version. That's the approach the agency supports. We would note importantly that the study as framed in the house passed version would be occurring alongside implementation of these new uniform definitions elsewhere in the bill for chronic absenteeism and truancy and in coordination with the work we'll be doing on that implementation with DCF and the state's attorneys. Moving forward with the hearing as contemplated in the current draft, will require the ALE to do several things to implement, so I thought I'd just give you a little more color on what that will be for hearings. It will first require us to maintain a list of impartial hearing officers who will be approved by the state board of education. These hearing officers' role will be to conduct the administrative hearing at which the agency would be the party sort of prosecuting the case against the home study enrollment, and the other party would be the parent with their legal counsel if they choose to be represented. The hearings would require a staff attorney to present the case on behalf of the agency as well as the agency to pay for the time of that hearing officer. Due to the high volume we've been experiencing in other administrative hearings, particularly special education administrative complaints, there's no capacity on the AOE legal team to take on a new set of hearings, the role of that prosecuting attorney for these hearings, as well as oversight of those new contracted service providers taking away my time as general counsel and being an additional resource demand when we're really kind of straight out as a legal team. So just in summary, we've got a situation where our prior practice did not produce the quality outcomes that we would like to see for students. Our oversight was not designed to bring about that result. An increased workload and administrative burden for the agency, and a real lack of any benefits that we see for student learning. So we're worried about this becoming an unfunded mandate on the agency without meaningfully addressing those outcomes quality of programming. Successful implementation of home study requires really a clear understanding of staffing expertise and support needed from the agency and to be carried out in a way that achieves the intended outcomes for students. Until we have that full picture, the agency is not recommending any statutory changes.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Thanks, Emily. I'm curious, you had mentioned that the hearing process wasn't yielding the results, right? And you were referring to the hearings after enrollment?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: That's right.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: So I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I thought yesterday, well, we were told that over the course of ten years, there was only one hearing.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Well, that's what we mean by that. Yeah. So the circumstances under which the secretary challenged an enrollment once a student was enrolled was a really really high bar, to just put it casually, and the evidence to meet that bar was very rarely in the agency's control to bring. Just because think about it, you're talking about things that do or do not happen inside someone's private home. The agency doesn't employ social workers like DCF does. We don't have the setup authority training protections to go in and review what's happening in folks' private homes. So the home study framework is really a system of plans on paper that are submitted by parents and the agency taking them at their word that that's what happens. We really find ourselves in a hearing posture on on the old statute of how can we prove to a hearing officer that the student is not receiving the planned program that the parent told the agency at the outset would be happening.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: And your concern about the unfunded mandate always very valid going from anybody. What funds would the agency of education need to carry this out?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: So I can talk to you about the sort of standing contracts we have for other maybe similar works. So a contract for a due process hearing officer, which is a I don't need to get into the details, but a special education dispute resolution process has a maximum cost of $60,000 across two years, so break that down to $30,000 a year max on that contract. When we actually have that kind of hearing, which follows the rules of evidence in the vast majority of cases. The parent is represented by counsel, so, you know, kind of the standard hearing. I'm reviewing those invoices, they come in at $4.05, $6,000 apiece for each instance of a hearing in the case.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: So if we had to tack on that, so was it $120,000 Is that

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: The contract is for two years, the one I'm thinking of, and is sixty thousand dollars

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Okay. Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So, Emily, have you all lately just do you have, like, a ballpark, or is it is it something you're working on for the future to to be able to say how much would it cost to have in house staff who could take a look at every, home study plan, Call the parent once a year. Like, if there's any question or concern that that you've notified DCF so that they they can step in. I mean, like, this is 5,000 kids that I feel like we're just saying we're not keeping track of.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: I really wanna make clear if the agency receives any concerns about student safety or neglect, we do notify DCF with those concerns. So just to get that right off the bat. Then the kind of questions that you're asking are what we're thinking with the report that we're proposing.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I ask Emily before you go on? So let's say you do get a concern and you report the concern to DCF. Do you also then think maybe that child is not getting a good education and we should check-in from a curricular and academic perspective.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Yes, and we have folks at the agency that can assist a parent who is interested in receiving our help. When we're talking about the hearing context, we're talking about the agency bringing its authority against a parent's wishes. So now yes, voluntarily and to help with improvement, yes we can and are situated to help on those one off cases where we receive concerns, but without the compelling authority. We want to have that appropriate authority in the interests of children's right to receive an education, and that's the thinking behind the report, that rather than diving in with this solution to really be thoughtful about the entire statute, and as I described, the larger context of why in Vermont are we seeing the continued increase enrollments in home study, how can the system be responsive to those needs and maybe bring, those students back into the education system and out of home study would be our our interest. But then for those students that remain in home study and that's still what their parents believe is best for them to have a more comprehensive system of appropriate state level oversight. I mean, let's remember that parents have a constitutional right to direct the upbringing of their children. They have the constitutional right to something like home study. The state can't needlessly interfere in the execution of that right. Right? That's the Supreme Court Yoder case. But within that framework, we just wanna be more planful, and it very well may be that in this report, we bring back the solution that looks like the language that you have in front of you, but that we've carefully considered with our partners in the field, with our partners at DCF and the state's attorneys to make sure that it's tailored to the right level of oversight.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Senator Weeks. Thanks, sir. Emily, thank you for the testimony. In regards to age, not in authority, just just for clarity, can you can you validate whether you're it it sounds like you're pushing back on section seven, heavily. But section A, are you, are you okay with section A, which is the study, the report, sorry?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yes.

[Sen. David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: You're supporting that, that you can do that? Absolutely. Okay and then, second question, I'm going play a little bit of devil's advocate here because I I did listen to your your first part of your testimony. You really were talking about some manpower issues and you know, how you can effectively support homeschooling and such and the the manpower that you used to have for homeschooling and again, I recognize that it may have been insufficient for the requirements that we were giving you or the shift of, you know, more and more families homeschooling. The manpower that you had prior to the changes we made about two years ago or so, were they reassigned within AOE or were they defunded?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Those folks still work at the agency. They've been shuffled around as part of

[Sen. David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: our

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: larger reorganization effort. And there are still folks who are tasked to processing home study paperwork under the statute.

[Sen. David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. So that's that's kind of where I'm driving at. So, in section seven, in section eight, with the folks that you have on hand, you can handle that assignment, produce a report, which is excellent. But section seven, you don't have and you may never have had the sufficient manpower to conduct those obligations. Is that?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: In section seven, you're really talking about something that falls not on the program team as we would talk about at the home study team, but really on the legal team. When we conduct administrative hearings, that's all in my shop or with the utilization of outside legal resources as required.

[Sen. David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. And then would it be safe to say that the results of Section eight, which is the report, you would outline all the requirements that you would need, support requirements, resources requirements, that you would need to conduct, whatever it is that you'd be hearing after enrollment. To conduct hearings after enrollment and such. The administration Yes,

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: as well as any changes that might be made to enrollment process itself that we would identify. That's been in use for going on three years now, so it's a good time to take a look back at how implementation is going.

[Sen. David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Emily, so I just read a summary of Yoder. Can you point me to a Supreme Court decision or a legal decision after 1972 that makes it more about a parent's secular preferences because this seems to be centering entirely on having deeply held religious beliefs that are that are not valued in a public school setting.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: That's still the through line of why all 50 states offer some type of homeschool programming. It's that for that purpose alone, the state needs to offer a path as an alternate to mandatory public school attendance, and so rather than in Vermont make it available only to folks who are exercising a First Amendment religious belief, we make it available to everyone, which I would prefer to keep because I would not like to get in the business of evaluating folks' philosophical and religious beliefs for using the home study program.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So why do you think there are so many kids who are in homeschool and are not at our institutions?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: I think there are different types of families who find home study to be the best solution for their student. And maybe we don't have all of the motivations identified yet. The ones I'm familiar with just from seeing some of the cases really existed before COVID. So my question when we embark on this study is, is it an awareness issue to some extent? Was home study talked about in the media and communities? It seem like a lower barrier to entry now culturally almost than it did before COVID? But you would not be the you would not come to me for the answer to that question as the general counsel, but that's just me as one observer wondering. I think my colleague has a hard stop, and I'd hate if you didn't get to hear from Courtney just as a flag, but I'm still available as well.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, you stay on, that would be great. Okay. So Courtney.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you, and thank you everyone. Nice to see you again. For the record, I am Courtney O'Brien. I use sheher pronouns. I'm the Agency of Education's Director for Safe and Healthy Schools. Thank you for the opportunity to come back in and chat with you all about specifically the proposed amendments in Bill H931 for adjustments to the existing HHB Prevention Advisory Council that is established under Title 16, Section five seventy and forward. We have we have attempted to reach some consensus with our partners in this space over the last twenty four hours. We met with a representative excuse me. We talked with a representative from the Vermont network yesterday. We've had conversations with several of our partners at the VPA, VSBA, VSA, and we've communicated with Vermont NEA, but I haven't heard back from folks today. I will note that both the agency and the associations that we discussed with in the last few days continue to have very strong reservations around making any changes to council membership or duties at this time. Concern number one being that we are trying to think very intentionally around effective HHB prevention strategy for Vermont, and this would be a key component of that, and that we would recommend potentially looking at statutory updates to Section five seventy as part of a comprehensive review in a future year. Our initial recommendation was potentially to have the agency engage in a comprehensive report with those recommendations ready by December 2026. We have had some luck, so I will say we've had some great interaction with the partners involved attempting to reach consensus language, but we were not able to reach something that fully met the needs of all. So at this time, acknowledging that there are still there's still some desire from at least some partners to move forward with this change, we are suggesting an alternative language and an alternative section here to preserve the balance of educational practitioners and other interested organizations with the requests of our partner advocacy organizations. We have submitted written testimony today with the specific language that we are suggesting. I would like to just offer a quick overview of some of the work that we've engaged in with the prevention council in the past six to twelve months. Just for folks' awareness, the council has been reestablished for just over one year. There was a bit of a hiatus for a period of time, and Secretary Saunders reestablished the first meeting last year in February. And at that time in that time, excuse me, the council has delivered important information about the existing model policy and has provided feedback and input on state level agency supports for HHB prevention. The concerns and the criticisms that were shared during that model policy review were heard, were validated, and as a result, the AOE has embarked in a significant shift in attention and resources and staff time being dedicated to HHB prevention. For example, we've secured state funding for a statewide PD series to ensure all educators have the needed competencies for HHB. We've initiated changes to our data processes to make sure that we're using data to make meaningful decisions around HHB, and we are currently reviewing the appropriate criteria for curriculum standards and what we're calling reconnection or restorative practices. I do like to say restorative practices lowercase. We are talking about more generally those practices which support restoration after an issue. All of those are initiatives which were either brought to our attention through the council feedback or have been shared with the council and have had input requested. We do appreciate that there is ongoing frustration with the existing requirements for investigation, but many of those points of frustration are grounded in statute currently, and again, would be something we would want to consider as part of a comprehensive review. Bottom line, the work that we are attempting to resolve and kind of make progress in here around HHB is very complex. And in order for it to be meaningful and sustainable, we do need to consider the complexities of our school systems, other education law, student rights, such as those under IDEA. And I would 100% agree that the lived experiences of students and families, and particularly those from our marginalized communities, do need to be centered in the approaches we take. However, the language that is proposed currently does create an advisory board that is made up of a large majority of non practitioners, so non education based physicians and practitioners, and which creates an even wider gap in our understanding of how to ensure the work is both practical and sustainable. Very specifically, the language that we're suggesting is that we would suggest if membership must be expanded, we would suggest including a representative of educators in those places, such as Title IX coordinators, special educators, or otherwise designated HHB personnel or administrators. So these would be practitioners or education based employees who have a active role and have been trained in the processes that we are discussing. In terms of scope, we did reach some consensus with Vermont Network yesterday around some of the language tweaks that we would like to see. Most notably, some of the language was adjusted to utilize words such as review and coordinate, and we would suggest that these items, specifically under section two duties, items B, is item suggested to review and advise on school and statewide activities relating to the prevention of and response to harassment, hazing, and bullying. And then in item D, review and advise on resources on harassment, hazing, harassment, and bullying rather than to develop and distribute directly. We are suggesting that in item C, we agree that having some clarity here on how often the model policy is reviewed is important and is a great addition. We would suggest that this review occurs once every three years. This is consistent with other recent legislation, specifically the chronic absenteeism bill, where we've been discussing a cycle of a three year review. Lastly, I will note in the membership section, in the first couple of lines. So these are as the section one items A through B, suggestions had been made by our other organizations to adjust the language of these different membership sections, sectors, we would not suggest any change from current language. Some of the adjusted language does make it even more restrictive and now requires specifically a principal, a superintendent, a school board member, and a teacher rather than a representative or designee from the professional boards. This does present some challenges in capacity and staff time and being able to dedicate a person every single time. These positions are under extraordinary pressures. Their schedules are often unpredictable. And so we would like to remain in the existing language where we're allowing those professional organizations to choose a designee on their behalf. This is also consistent with the way that membership is described in the additional sections that have been proposed. So we see the need for consistency around how we are allowing our membership to provide designees at their behest. So in summary, still not recommending moving forward with any changes to this section of law. We did our best to reach consensus with these groups on a fairly complex topic over the last twenty four hours or so. We were not able to reach full consensus, but it sounds like there's appetite to get there and that we would suggest this alternative language that's been provided to you in written testimony.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you. You left, Chittenden. More testimony. Before AV goes off the stage. If I can, just for clarification, I think you may have just summed it up, but just to make sure, you said that the network recommends no changes, but you no changes to membership of the council, the council, but that you actually did have some recommendations on changes to the composition of the council. I'm not quite sure where you are in this balance of whether to move forward or just keep status quo.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: Sure, and I'm happy to clarify. The Vermont Network was not in agreement with the agency's recommendation to make no changes. They are moving forward with recommendations. So that is their testimony that they've continued to provide. We did reach some agreement on tweaks in the scope and duties section and moved towards consensus on using that term advisory rather than more directive language. Currently, the agency's recommendation is that no change should occur, much like the reasons that Emily stated around home study. There's complexity and to make changes to the council while we are still kind of in the throes of other parts of this strategy are likely to be disruptive. If changes are needed, the agency is making this alternative recommendation that if we were to make the change, we would like to see it be intentional and we would like to see it be representative of a wider inclusion of educator and practitioner voices. We actually, by coincidence, had an advisory council meeting Monday evening. During that session, our chair held a short survey of council members to understand what is missing in the current approach, and a majority of respondents did suggest that an educator focus is lacking and that they would like to see more educator input into the council. So the suggested membership additions by the Vermont Network are largely advocacy groups and human rights organizations that are not education focused, and so our suggestion would be to tweak that a bit. We would be agreeable to the inclusion of some additional membership from the Vermont Equity and Education Collaborative, VEIC. We think that would be an excellent opportunity to help streamline some of those concerns and perspectives from our other human rights and advocacy groups. We would love to see expansion around special education needs. And again, thinking about who would be the appropriate body to support this council there, we would like to see special educators rather than a statewide group. And then we made a suggestion that in place of the social workers, Vermont Chapter, National Association of Social Workers Vermont Chapter, that we would include in that place a representative from the Vermont School Counselors Organization. So generally, concern here is that the requested additions don't adequately represent the voices and needs of people who are practice practicing in these education spaces. And so we would like to try to meet that need with an alternative way.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Thanks.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Hi there.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I'm Charlie Glisserman. I'm the policy director at the Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence. I thought it might be helpful for the committee, if you all are interested, for me to just quickly share my screen and show the places where we agree with AOE's suggested changes, if that would be helpful to quickly look through. Sure. Perfect. So, I just joined the Zoom room. And, you know, really appreciated the opportunity to connect with the agency and find agreement where we could, and I think some of their suggestions are really good ones that we are supportive of. As you'll see up here, I don't know if the best wording is designee or member to add to some of these groups, but that is something we're comfortable with. Senator Ram Hinsdale, thank you so much for your suggestion about the Vermont Education and Equity Collective. I think that's a great suggestion. We've also noted language around a social worker or school counselor appointed by the National Association of Social Workers. This is language that the lobbyists for both the social workers and school counselors felt was most appropriate to add here. And then here are all the changes to the duties that the agency recommended that we are comfortable with.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So the remaining differences are?

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: The remaining differences are, and I certainly don't wanna speak for the agency, but these are the groups that they communicated would, excuse me, not outright, that they felt that in the interest of having practitioners better represented on the council, they felt groups like the Coalition for Disability Rights and the Commission on Women and the Office of Racial Equity would be better represented by other folks. You know, my experience working with these groups is that these are the organizations that are supporting students who experience gazing harassment and bullying. These are folks who've been involved in policy and working groups around improving statutory responses to hazing, harassment, and bullying. They have participated very actively in those processes and I would support them having a seat at the table, but of course, this is the policy decision for you all. And I certainly don't wanna speak for the agency, so if there's any further comments that they'd like to add, they're more than welcome.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: You, Charlie. Yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Go ahead, Kodesh. Was going to call on you for a response. We can kick in a little dialogue over here.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you. This is very helpful. Also, Charlie, great to see you. We've been emailing kind of third party, so great to make the virtual introduction. So, yes, I would agree with what is being shared here. And I just want to clarify that the agencies, our hesitancy in including these additional partners is not because they should not have a seat at the table. There are practical needs associated with this council, one of them being the ability to meet a quorum and run effective, meaningful meetings. And so the more that we grow this membership, the harder that forum is to reach, and we would really like we would prefer to see that if the membership is going to grow, that these would be people who come to the table with the foundational knowledge around the education system and can really approach these problems in that kind of more comprehensive way. We would be happy to continue to talk through the membership. I don't know that this is not necessarily a sticking issue. I will say that in our conversations with our association partners, there was strong opposition to the way that the language has been changed around the major education organizations. The way that the language has now been adjusted from the existing language to what we see here, it creates specificity on a principal, a school board member, a superintendent, not a designee of organization. And so that does create limitations in who can actually attend and act on behalf of those act in these excuse me, act at the council on behalf of these boards. For example, a principals associate the way that this is being written, we would understand to mean that it's a principal or a designee of a principal, not necessarily a designee of the Vermont Principals Association, which may or may not be an active acting principal at the time of that designation, if that makes sense. So that That distinction does feel important to us that we would not want to exclude any members from those organizations.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Excuse me. Go ahead, Courtney.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you. For clarity, all of these associations currently have a designee on the board as is allowed under the current statute, and so our suggestion is not to make any changes in those sections A through E. And then yes, we reached some consensus on the other areas where Charlie had pointed out.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So it sounds like you've reached an agreement on the, I think the most important part was the fact that the council was actually doing a few functions that would normally be with the agency and you resolve that I think. You would resolve whether it has to be a principal or whether it could be a representative from the association And so we're down to just a couple of potential additions. I so but I have a sense there's no disagreement with the people that the agency want on. It's just a question of whether they would replace a couple of people you're interested in them, right? So we're really down to just a couple of It's whole issue now, which is great. Down to just a couple of

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: That is absolutely right. And I know, especially at this point in the session, I do not want to take up any more time than I need to. I'm happy to answer any questions, but I think that the composition as it was currently drafted in the miscellaneous judiciary, excuse me, I'm working on that bill too. On the miscellaneous education bill, is good from our perspective with these two proposed conditions and the designee language.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And we're talking about the the language from the agency now that was submitted.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I am talking about a member appointed by the Rutland Education Equity Collective and a social worker or school counselor appointed by the National Association of Social Workers for non chapter.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So if we went with everything in the memo and added those two, everything in the agency memo and added those two, the agency wouldn't love it, but you'd be good.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I have not seen the agency's memo.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, okay. It cleared up a couple of those police work. Well, it's posted by the way. Okay.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Today. Perfect. I will bring it up right now.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Don't go away, anybody. We're getting close.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Can I can I just say something lower? Shuffling. I I understand just the number of people on any commission, etcetera. I tend to disagree, not that it wasn't well stated, Courtney, but I just tend to disagree that you need a much heavier focus on school officials and less on the people who support and experience those or those who support and those who experience folks experiencing hasting harassment and bullying, I I I'd be happy to look toward the top for, like, do all of those other organizations feel like they need somebody? But I would want to preference the people who've been added.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think we're maybe looking so I think we're down to, like, two people, right? Two positions. If we went with the agency and added the two you're talking about in particular, am I right about too?

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: So, some of these, I submitted language to Beth and the chair that I feel comfortable with. For example, the suggestion is to remove the Commission on Women and the Office of Racial Equity because their interests, the education equity collective can represent equity concern and act as a conduit for those organizations. I think that it's most appropriate for those organizations to be on the council. I think it's a pretty high bar to represent the needs of students with disabilities and women and racial minorities, all with that one seat. But I can't, certainly can't speak for these organizations, but that would be my preference.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So it's something bigger than anyone. Okay. So we'll pick that up.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I, I mean, I've been talking to Vegan, the one who suggested them. I don't know how closely the agency of education is working with them. I don't think they would say they are a conduit for the mission of women and the Office of Racial Equity. They

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Yeah. And yet I am sympathetic to the position of the agency about Because this is about what happens in the school setting and how to sort of sympathetic to them wanting it to be mostly educators and I'm also sympathetic to your argument that these people deal with that. So is there any hope that you two working this evening?

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I'm always happy to connect.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And come back with to us tomorrow with with hopefully something that we can all live with. So

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I'll I'll just say maybe I do I personally agree with the replay thing. Certain coalitions with ones that that are specific to school.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Like, instead of social.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: I yeah. Like, especially, honestly, social workers to school counselors, I think that would be acceptable to most. I do worry that, like, the Coalition for Disability Rights often has self advocacy involved and Vermont Special Education Administrators is different. We're we're really trying to fit the entire otherwise, the entire, like, student experience in one person. One example of a member of the Coalition for Disability Rights is the Disability Rights Project at Legal Aid, which represents students who are involved in HHB incidents and like so those are the kinds of perspectives that you might get from a member of And then kind of what I'm saying is like it I I think it's it's just too heavy on the side of these are people who are in schools, and it should be just equal coequal to these are people who know what hazing, harassment bullying look like for different groups and can make positive suggestions and changes.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Well, we're running on Go ahead. Courtney, see your hand up, think.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: Apologies and thank you. I have to leave. I have to pick up my son. I'm so sorry. Emily Simmons will be on the call for a moment. I appreciate all this conversation. Very happy to continue the conversation with Charlie and others over the next couple of hours, I guess, here.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I have a question to that ask. That's great.

[Courtney O'Brien, Director of Safe and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education]: Yeah. One thing I did want to note is I think our thoughts on this and trying to answer the question around who is on the council, we really are at the point where we all collectively agree how important this work is and how important it is to include equity and inclusivity as the core of these conversations. What we are lacking is our ability to move forward with practical solutions. And so when when we are leaning into the space of practitioners, not necessarily administrators or leaders, We're really trying to welcome in people who understand the nuances of our school systems so that we can deliver those practical solutions. Thank you all for your time. I will sign off, but Emily is still available. Thanks.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. And so we're running out of time. So, if you get worked out tonight and you bring it to us, that would be great.

[Charlie Glisserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Perfect. I will try my very best. Okay. And I appreciate your very thoughtful work and attention to this issue.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. We appreciate your So are we I think with the miscellaneous bill, we were down to that single issue, resolving that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Let me think for a second.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That is, have one other, the one that John's gonna have. Yes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Justice James Office of Legislative Counsel. I have added the performance contract language. I have a note that we're gonna have my colleague Sophie Zidatnian to talk about, will ask us to offer a concept.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yep, that's still Okay. Yep.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And then other than those two distinct pieces, I would say, yeah, my notes indicate that the Healing, Harassment and Bullying Advisory Council was the last outstanding. So, three, so three Yep.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And on absenteeism filled, we are down. Study program at the acting after the. How does the committee wanna pursue? Thoughts on either one? I think we so on the on the miscellaneous bill, we have to sort out the last offer issue and the harassment action. Arrising that happening. Racing harassment, obeying issue in the council. And on chronic absenteeism, after enrollment. Which which one are we? One? I think you pick. What?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can you pick? What?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Actually, I think COVID. Or they're again for me. Sorry about the section. So yeah. Home study. Yeah.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: We do have the home study group sizes here.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Brenda Dunlop with Remodel of Education Network. As I was listening, was trying to think, maybe I can offer a solution out of them. The biggest problem with section eight is that there is no input mentioned by most voters whatsoever on whatever the department wants to come back with. I'll give you a little bit of a history. In nineteen eighty five, eighty seven, eighty six, the legislature was in an uproar for two or three years over home study, including 166 feet. The result of it was 166 feet. Finally, I believe Senator Lucy was on the Senate Committee at the time. They said, the legislative committee to the homeschoolers and to the agency, Go back. This summer, pick a couple of you, sit down, hammer this up, and come back with a solution in January that everyone's happy with. And that's how one sixty six b came in the field. And I would maybe suggest you do that now by removing section seven and eight and telling us to deal with the summer and come back in January with something. Because section eight is clearly leading homeschoolers out of the conversation. And and you you get to Yoder and and but go back further to 1925 to Pearson Society, which is referenced in a lot of Supreme Court court hearings even to this day that parents have a a right but but a duty and a responsibility to direct the education upbringing of their children. And that you cannot mandate that because the case was about a Catholic school and a military school brought the case because the state of Oregon was saying, you can only attend a public school. And the Supreme Court said, no. You can't force someone to only go to a public institution. So here, I'm opting not to go to the public school. And what I'm afraid of, Maybe this is not what the agency is saying, but I don't wanna be in a position to advocate or have to fight with or push back on the agency of education becoming the supervisory union for homestead programs. They don't, they're not our superintendency, they're not a school, that's not their function. So, is there some other solution? I'm willing to experience that. I've already got an appointment with the Secretary of Education and Homesteading Consultant on the books to to have this conversation since that's what they want. So that would be a solution, and we'd guys say that get this bill out of here. Otherwise, I have to go home and tell homeschoolers that this is a possibility that we're going down the road with the agency once again, maybe becoming our school system, if you will. So,

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: I'm confused. I thought you were very eager to

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: have Section I was eager to have it replaced Section VIII, but Section VIII is still there.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Okay, so are I'm just trying to understand. So are you saying get rid of Section VII and modify Section I was Where the AOE has to consult with you or your organization.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Was suggesting getting rid of both of them and we'll work on it.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I was sent. So, if you had a question. It's very similar. I'm a little unclear why we can't modify Section eight to incorporate, your subject matter experts to work with AOE, just modify the language and then Well, I guess, why do we need to put it in pause? Why don't we just say work it out the There's an apparent appearance of an issue and I'd like to see if there is an issue or not an issue and then carry forward. Then if we need to look at whatever was intended by section seven, we learned from the study on how we need to modify the program. Otherwise, we don't have an end product to react to to do anything in January eighth Symphony. That's Okay. So,

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: yes, Senator Hsieh, I want the hearings to be part of this. Okay. Because section eight talks about oversight. What kind of oversight do we need? And it also talks about we wanna make sure they're complying with attendance. Those are the phrases that I'm concerned about. Because it would come back that they would have certain pieces of information they want us to submit. But if they don't like those piece of intervention, and I've mentioned this before, what do we do about it? I just don't like the terms oversight. I don't like that you need to know who are attending. Like I said, the child makes up in their school. They are attending. They are there. If you're actually talking about are they getting an education, we have a bigger question that all the students in this state are facing are they getting an education, and why look so intently at those scores. So,

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: I mean, the hearings are a form of oversight. Yeah. But it's also, I mean, in this report, the hypothetically, if we had more members contribute to this report, it can come back with all sorts of things and we can do whatever we want with it based on the testimony we've got from AOE recently and the testimony we got two years ago. I have my doubts that they're going to want stacks of paperwork that they're going to have to review on a regular basis. But even if that is something that they've done in this hypothetical We have to make that at the law. But I'm not sure what the issue is with us suggesting, let's edit section eight to include your organization to resolve

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Well, you could the you remove out the oversight?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I was just gonna suggest that we put improved continuities of the homeschool program to ensure homeschool practice. So, Emily, I'll let you in here on the second.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: I mean, can it say the two organizations go back and talk about these things?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I I will say, Ferris, to you, this there is a little bit of outcome predetermined in the language suggesting that there is a need. It might be better to say whether or not there is a need. And whether whether there is or is not an issue with attendance. Something there's a little bit it does suggest an outcome. So so Emily I

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: mean I'm not opposed to section seven. I just want to back.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No I'm sorry. What about yeah.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: What about we just say recommendations for updates to Vermont's home study program. I'm going to strike out the rest. And that gives them. Yep. Far more to to come back with whatever recommendations I need.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we'd have to put in there the collaborate, come back, and report that to

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: the committee. It's put in a Nate Collaborate, you can use your mom home education network if you need to.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Now let's let Emily in for a second to react. We'll listen to this discussion. We have existing language. Comments.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Sure. So, just to make it really clear, section seven, I reviewed it and Beth is right there, is the house passed section five. So just keeping track of the differences between the two bodies. I heard putting a period earlier in that sentence than it is. And when you're directing my client agency to do things, I love short sentences, so I'm for that. And then really important point that I hope goes without saying, hi, Retta. We know each other pretty well after all these years. We don't wait to be directed by the general assembly to consult with the stakeholders who have an interest in the the issues we're reporting on. So and I was glad to hear, Rutta, that you mentioned you're on the secretary's book for a meeting that's coming up. Of course, you'll be among the stakeholders that we were planning to consult with anyway on this important report. I think I mentioned at the top of my testimony, we're also gonna consult with folks like DCF and state's attorneys even though they're not listed here either. Right? So just the responsible way that we try to conduct our work and make sure that we're talking to everybody who needs to be heard and who has an interest before we're reporting back to the general assembly. So I I say let's end the sentence at home study program law, period.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yep. I think that was the

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: It's so hard to read that to me.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Let me me forward you that at the product. On line 14, NAP doesn't work with, but and have the word ending with any recommendations. So, it's not suggesting that there is an issue. Line 14. So, let me just throw that in. Throw that Possibility. Same place that we talked about with Senator Hashim said. But I I would suggest adding the word. Senate for the investigation with any recommendations or updates.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: I don't know if that has an impact one way or the other, but I know how it goes. Alright.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you we'll do an a la line 14, And then we end at law on 15 at the end.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So this August, that gets all executed. So I'm sort of good with that. Emily said, you know, I think I said it already. That's good for you. That's fine if you do.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Are we taking out section seven when we're doing that?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Are you good? I'm good. Yeah. Think we're there. Because they don't have the manpower. Yeah.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Yes. I I I do understand the difficulty.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And and you've heard the discussion going into the summer. And Well, you're also saying that

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Well, unless you all wanna keep it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I'm I am I don't think I've ever been okay with taking a hearing process out.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It it is out now. That's hard. Two years two years.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: It's not in the model.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, out of the language that we've looking at this long So we haven't taken it.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you would like to keep that?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I'll just say this. Like, what I heard had nothing to do with concerns about people involved in your network who are passionately homeschooling their kids. I I am concerned about educational neglect and kids that we don't know are not getting what they need. And if they exist, I don't know what we're doing about that at the next year.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Do we wanna add the $60 for the physician or for the fund?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, I'm aware of consultants that AOE has hired for other things that they would like to do, but I think there isn't, they have money. So

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: if a if you're saying if a that comes up because they're they haven't they have one issue. How long? Oh. Emily, how long has it been since there's been a hearing?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They don't have to extend contracts with ADA consulting. There's a lot of other stuff they can do.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: We haven't had a hearing in more than ten years and to be clear, our testimony is that Section seven does represent an unfunded mandate on the agency.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So, we'll have this report back in December.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think it's a mandate. I think we are supposed to make sure these kids are okay and learning.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: I agree. I think there needs to be some kind of a hearing process. And I also understand that the hearing process that's written up is the old one. And there might be an easier way for the agency to do the same thing. What I'm after in a hearing process is, yes, the agency has something they can do about a program, but also a protection of the parent's due process of their right to go to school. So, are the two things that need to be in there. Does it need to be written the way Section seven is written? No. I there might be other things. I mean, Emily, is there other ways to write it?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: That's what we wanna study with you, actually.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Yeah. And so What I

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: heard from DCF is they unless a mandatory reporter generally calls them with a complaint about a child who they're not as likely to lay eyes on because that child is not in a setting with other adults, that DCF is waiting for this oversight process to get referred by AOE, some child who's experiencing educational neglect.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And has there been many complaints of that, do you know, Emily?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: We do. We get some complaints each school year about concern from a neighbor or a grandparent is typically what I see about a home study program. We follow-up on those with the tools that we have. We use our DCF reporting tools appropriately with the information that we have. So we are fielding those complaints now, and we agree that there should be an an agency role in the most serious cases as as I'm hearing Redda say. At some type of due process hearing, we want to identify the correct process.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So, that's you're you're telling us now that's going to be part of the report. Yes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I just don't think we can have no process in the meantime.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But we've had no process.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: It may I ask what happens if you leave it in and it's probably not going to be used, but there's an unfunded mandate. Can that be in statute? Yes, it can.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's what we specialize. But I think that the agency's position is that they would have to hire somebody a month routine or this goes into the law.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: I would never come to you and ask you to pass a law that I had no ability to follow. Right? That would make me highly uncomfortable to have that law on the books with everything that's on the record about the real lack of capacity that we're facing.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Let's just figure. What are we doing? You want we we're agreed on section eight, I think. Mhmm. As written. Yes. As rewritten. As rewritten. We have one vote for keeping seven in, section seven in.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: I mean, if they're gonna come back in December or on what to do, then finally take you out.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, it's tricky. Alright. So I am also cooking with some. I I hear what you sound like.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Probably, I will put that on. So I do think it's been some kind of yes.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Emily, thank you. Thank you.

[Retta Dunlap, Vermont Home Education Network]: Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you for putting up with me.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No, thank you. You have a loud voice. You've got it. Your question is coming.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Okay. Good evening, everybody.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Okay. Very nice. So we're almost we're closer on those two. And we just say that I want to do whatever we have to do to get we gotta get $9.55 out of your thing. So depending on discussion for tomorrow possible longer to Monday. Depending on where we are. We have we're going to launch an estimate for tomorrow. The agency the the pay for a lot of profilence. We have low school community alliance can't come in Tuesday. So, who else do we want to hear from? About. I got some testimony. Get a block of testimony. I'll go see how we can get there tomorrow. So can I is it okay if I zoom in next week? Or is that Yes. Your surgery, I'm ready. I have another follow-up on Tuesday. Hopefully, I'll be up be able to be here. I'll be like, told me. And I of course, you can submit. Yes. That'll be good. You're on track. Hope you can. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Vasco, they just sent us a letter.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Did when did we get that?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: know. So, like, few days ago. Yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Just that we have it. Because it's just you need. Yes. I have to work with it. Okay. Okay. And so we can have them do a contact there? Yep. If it's we actually we have any time tomorrow after the especially in the handover? Maybe it wasn't staying outside. Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Tuesday. Sorry. If are we talking about meeting on Monday? Because I I need to rearrange things now.

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: Have a lot of commission judiciary thing. The Supreme Court. We have a meeting that day. Yeah. Maybe we got. Yeah. So, I think it starts at 10:30. It belongs to coast.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Probably an hour in the house. Do you do that here? No. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I could do like eight to 10AM. That's my only available.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Let's see where we are tomorrow. Okay. And make a decision. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to ask though on the major reform question I think we need to better understand the school construction piece unless you want senator Harrison or somebody else to do that. But I sent a suggested change that returns to some more specific language from the house on what kinds of projects would be prioritized for school construction dollars. They'll deduct it over in $9.55? No. They must have taken it out at some point, which leads me to the other question about moving things out a year and that no longer necessarily being as aligned with the conversations about consolidation or facilities or resource sharing. I think maybe we could hear from somebody from the house who's passionate about the school construction section.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, would suggest you look it out and we can so and we can look at timelines. What we can do

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So could Daphne like, so I don't lose this thread, could Daphne email, like, Peter Conlon and say, who could see your school construction patch or something? Like I know that institutions on that side didn't look at it. I do think it would be good if institutions on our side looked at it. I do think these are building and facilities and grounds questions more than education or finance questions.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Let's get them in and yeah. I'm fine with that, by the way. That's fine. Yeah. Can we ask GovOps to comment on the language which is in the current drop in regards to governance school boards. The the the only thing about boards here is the makeup of the seasons.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I thought there was all kinds of votes they have to take and then they

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: have Yeah, to for

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, those votes usually you could have asked.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, that language, by the way, that we went through yesterday, I added. Right. I added it as a mechanism for making it possible to prevent the changes. It would be nice to have some other fingerprints on it. Oh, I

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: would like, remember I asked for the CTEs to either just be included or to comment on being included from the get go in all of these conversations.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: What would you like to have in?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We could have Eric Remerson, who's the CTE doctor, the director of the directors.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Big one.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yep. And I was hoping somebody was producing a map that overlaid the CTE districts.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: These have been on to With

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: some other map. Yeah. When that whole appropriate, I don't know if that's on. On the question of tuition and fees above the foundation formula, I think there are probably a number of superintendents who could comment on that. I mean, like, I I didn't I don't wanna just lean on who I know, but I'd invite in our superintendent because I've had this conversation with him a lot about school trips and and making sure everyone gets to participate and nobody feels like they're either required to pay or they can't go if they can't pay. So that was the school trick. I think the whole question of can a school charge tuition on top of what they receive in the foundation formula. I think there are probably both public and independent high schools that that have an interest in making sure that's equitable. Right? Because there are high schools that receive tuition dollars that are public. Have the tuition fees. Right. So at least one of each of those, like, one public superintendent, one private headmaster or whoever to come.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Are you talking about kids going up on a trip to France or train or going to school? I

[Sen. Nader Hashim (Member)]: thought I had x 73 prepared. It involves both. There's there's fees questions and the tuition question. These are you gonna charge somebody to go on a field trip? Most. But also it could be, are you gonna charge an additional thousand dollar fee to apply to go to a school? And then the question is, it's own separate bucket of you're getting the foundation formula but can you then also charge on top of that to get more money? Instead of the foundation form to fund those students. So that's for independent schools? Yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. All schools actually.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's the whole school, so that's what I'm saying. We're gonna I have

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: a foundation. Yeah. Like, you could make a case that we'd wait and find out what the weights are and then have this discussion.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, but I I mean, like, whatever the weights are, everybody's gonna have to live with that. I agree. So Yeah. Gonna have

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to live on that page. Yeah. So That's that's who's looking at weights. There's a study coming to us in December. It was done by Tampa.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Should we check-in with them before we leave about that study?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, know it's. Do the money committees agree that the village and that part down the road that they agree that that's not a village? What is foundation funding? What what is? The money committee seems to control about 60% of this building. They agree with that approach of studying weights, coming up with a I just don't know what that happens. Yes. That's all curved wall.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They feel pretty strongly. I think many people feel strongly that we waited until that study.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Good. I don't know what they're thinking, and they're you know, mostly for lots of surprises. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So it sounds like Daphne got all my people due to the

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Here's over. Checked out. All right. We'll adjourn.