Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: We're live.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Senate Education Committee on the afternoon of April 29. We are going to spend a good portion of the afternoon on H nine fifty five. It's a confirmation bill that will switch back to product absenteeism bill and the miscellaneous bill and then back to 55. Started today with Council James on a few of how cases actually work. They they do relate to what the superintendent does as well. I'm sure happy we're getting at that but anyway. And then we have some witnesses lined up to talk about how CSOs actually work on the ground, those few people who are directly involved with our actual operational systems. So we're going to start right now with legislative counsel on how CESAs won't happen.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Thank you, Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel. And I don't know that I'm going to get into how CESAs work explicitly because I truly think that the best witnesses to talk to you about that are the folks in the field. But what I have done for you today is a little, I've made a little chart, it's on your website and I need to get copies. And if you'd like me to share my screen, I'm happy to. I'm just comparing school district supervising and SITA's as they are contemplated in age nine fifty five as passed by the house in some key areas that there seem to be either confusion or curiosity about. Share my screen. And so we've got school districts, supervisory unions, and CSAS under age nine fifty five as passed by the house. And we're gonna look at how these are formed, who is their membership, their duties and responsibilities, and how they are managed. So, districts are formed They can be formed in many different ways, but looking at our current education landscape, Union School Districts are formed on a voluntary basis after a study and a vote by the electorate, and the process for that is contained in 15 BSA Chapter 11. Town school districts, I didn't put this down, but town school districts are just the towns that they are. And incorporated school districts are chartered by the

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: General

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Assembly. Supervisory unions, including supervisory districts, are created by the State Board of Education. And seesaws under H. Nine fifty five are created by an act of the General Assembly, And that in H. Nine fifty five is section two, section six zero three. Membership. The school districts are composed of member municipalities, either one town or city or several towns or cities. It does technically get more complicated than that when we're looking at union high school districts and union elementary districts. Technically, those types of districts could be composed of member school districts, such as towns, like town school districts, but for the purposes of this discussion, school districts are composed of municipalities. Supervisory unions and supervisory districts are composed of member school districts, Either one district in the case of a supervisory district or more than one school district in the case of a supervisory union. And then seesaws are composed of member supervisory unions, including supervisory districts. So, it's kind of like a tiered level of membership. You go

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: from

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: municipalities that create the school districts, and then the school districts create the supervisory unions, and then the supervisory unions, I shouldn't say create, they make up the supervisory unions, and then supervisory unions make up the CSOCs. Duties and responsibilities. I have not listed every single duty or responsibility for a supervisory union or a school district, or even for a seesaw, but I've hit the highlight. So, generally speaking, school districts are responsible for the provision of certain services and execution of certain responsibilities and duties under 16 BSA Section five sixty three, including setting the educational policies of the school district. They can take any action that is required for the sound administration of the school district. I'm on page two now. They have the possession care control and management of the property of the district. They're required to keep school buildings and grounds and repair, discretion to administer early education programs, locate or discontinue a schoolhouse subject to applicable law. They set the budget, they may execute contracts, and they exercise the general powers given to a legislative branch of a municipality. Neither supervisory unions nor seesaws can execute the general powers of a legislative branch of a municipality.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Can that be changed?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: You can change whatever you want.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Just one question, guys.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Gets real complicated when you do.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Seriously, that's a sure Maybe.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So, supervised reunions are also responsible for certain services and the execution of certain responsibilities and duties. You can find those under section two sixty one A. And I should say that sprinkled throughout Title 16 and maybe in different other titles, depending on the topic, there may be other one off duties or responsibilities or powers. But those are the five fifty three for school districts and 261A for supervisory unions. Those are our main anchoring duties and responsibilities statutes. So, supervisory unions are responsible for establishing a supervisory union wide curriculum, receiving disbursement of federal and state funds, professional development, special education services, and then generally what we think of as kind of our central office business services. Seesha's, and this language is taken directly from HNI-five, which is mostly mostly current law, have the power to provide educational programs, services, facilities, and professional and other staff that in its discretion best serve the needs of its members, including professional development, curriculum coordination development, and transportation. Can I ask a question there? And I know I just walked in, but I had this conversation with the pro temp from his time as chair of education. And he thought that special education was specifically a function of supervised reunions. It is the we talk about who is ultimately so it's not I think saying something is a function of something gets real complicated. Yeah. Because to me function means who's the person carrying out those services. Right. Federal law requires someone on the state level to be responsible for the provision of special education services, the local education agency, and in Vermont, our local education agencies are supervised reunions. So, supervisory unions have the ultimate responsibility for providing special making sure that special education services are provided. Okay.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It's not the way they can do it, potentially.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yep. I think if we just get through this little thing, I have a little bullet point that I think sums up everyone's information. So, CFODs have the discretion to provide pretty much any service that their members think they need, And they are required under nine fifty five to offer special education services, business administration services, and union school district creation consultation and delegation. And this bullet point on page two, I think is the most helpful point based on our previous conversations. So, districts and supervisory unions retain the ultimate responsibilities for all the duties and powers assigned to them under law, but they may purchase services from seesaws to help them meet those obligations.

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: If I can ask a question here. I think this bullet point gets to something that I'm trying to reconcile here because, you know, I'm looking at some of the overlap, like professional development, for example, you know, mentioned in both columns. And you know, at at the heart of it all, the purpose of the CISA is to allow the SUs or the SDs to share the cost of services that the CISA could be responsible for administering?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: It's not that the CISA is responsible for administering But

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: like managing the contracts?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Okay. But ultimately, if there was some complaint or specific legal challenges aside, if there was a service that a supervisor union was required under law to provide, and there's they're not providing that service or there's an issue in the way they are providing that service, it is ultimately the supervisory union's responsibility to remedy whatever that issue is, even if they have chosen to avail themselves of a person or a program that the seesaw is making available to them to help them meet that obligation. So, for example, I think this is the easiest one I think about this. Let's think about an art teacher, especially for elementary school. If you are a tiny school district and you only need a point three two art teacher or a point three art teacher, you may have trouble finding someone who will accept a point three contract. But the seesaw, right? And so then you say, okay, well, this teacher is gonna have a point three contract here and a point three contract there and a point three contract there, or a point four contract there to get to a one FTE. Someone has gotta be it's either three different contracts or one contract that a school district is managing, and then everyone else is trying to pay their fair share of whatever. The seesaw could hold that entire contract for that. They could be a full time employee of the seesaw. And then the seesaw charges a fee for service for however much time that teacher spends in all of the elementary schools that they travel to. The CSO would be the employer, the CSO would be the one, would be the employer. And

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: this might be getting too far ahead, but how does a CISA come to determine what services need to be provided, like your future?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: It's the, they have the power to provide the program services, facilities and professional and other staff that in its discretion best serve the needs of its members. And so it would be the board, right? Board is made up of the CSA, which is made up of folks appointed by the member to supervisory unions for determining what services this membership group is most in need of.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. Senator Weeks who were.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: We had one so we got one potentially one at the that is shared shared service.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: That's an example. Right.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Yep. That's good. So the CSAT hires, correct?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: It's your scenario.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: No, no, that's what you told me. This if they work for

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: the No, that an example.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Example. So if they do work for the CSAT- Then do they have to come up with new contracting in that as opposed to the SG looting SD?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: If there would be a contact required regardless of who the employee is, there there would need to be a contract for that person. All of the current BOCES law that the Seesha law in September has kept allows employees of CFOP to be part of bargaining units and teachers' healthcare and retirement benefits, the same way that anyone employed by an SU or a school district would be with the benefits entitled to.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So it'd its own entity and other entity?

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Yes.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So I'm I'm trying to make sense of the property ownership versus the property management or, like, future capital construction differences between school district supervisory units, and I don't think it's a surprise to people. Like, it never I I have not grown to like what we heard from White River Supervisory Union as wonderful of a job as I think they're doing. My understanding is the way they're set up, there's one town responsible for their elementary school bonding, there's two towns responsible for the high school bond, etcetera. So I think we're talking and I wanna say, I know you have limited time left in the building and limited time left today. So I think my time with you is up for this. So I wanna be respectful of that. But also, I think what you're talking about is the ability to bond, which is tied to taxing capacity. Mhmm. Which neither supervisory unions nor seesaws legally have the ability to do. Okay. Only school districts. So, in this state, only municipalities have the ability to tax and bond. And those are your school districts, not supervisory units or seesaws. So, that could be changed. Not easily. It could be changed in the same way you can make up anything you want. I mean, today, we're gonna be Bragal Rock Day. Mhmm. I I don't know. I wish Bragal Rock did a lot. The implications for that, I mean, I mean, that would be an extremely intense change. Like, that would be a long That would be a very involved change. Mhmm. But And I don't know I don't know I am not your municipal attorney. Mhmm. So I would wanna consult with Tucker. Ultimately, I don't even know you could do that, whether there's any constitutional constraints. Besides, it's

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: whole different it's different issues. Not too many.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Well, it's to me, what tool gets you to regional high schools? Bigger school districts. That's the only tool that gets you to regional high schools? No. That's one tool. You have the ability to share. School districts can share. There's joint contract provisions in current law. There's a whole provision already in current law for shared schools between school districts. Yeah. So there are tools out there, but it requires everyone taking their own vote in their district on the same bond? I no. The bond would only be for one municipality. Okay. So and I I mean, again, I'm trying to be respectful of the time and the slot on the agenda. There are provisions in current law for joint contract school districts. And perhaps that is something if the committee is interested in, we could talk about, know, when it makes sense. And I don't know off the top of my head how that works. But there is a law for joint contract schools.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. We have, well, she's coming back later today. Oh, she's not at all. You can ask a question. I'm curious.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: So we created BOCES a couple of years ago. Do the BOCES outline responsibilities and such that you've outlined here for the seesaws? Are the BOCES the same or are there significant differences?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So the only difference is that current law, if we're looking on page two or page one in that last column, bottom right hand corner, educational programs, services, facilities, and professional and other staff at its discretion best serve the needs of its members, period. That's current law. H-nine 55 adds, including professional development, etc, and then the required circumstances.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay, last question. Thanks, Shay. Who does seesaw directors report to?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: The board of CEFA.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And who do they report?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: They don't report, they are their own entity and they are made up of their members.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Are they overseen by anybody?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Not in the, no, in the same way that school districts are not overseen by anyone other than their electorate and the supervisory unions don't report to anyone other than, you know, their member school districts and it's a similar concept.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Right. We have education quality standards, etcetera, etcetera that keep school districts kind of pointed in the, you know, towards true north. Seesha, independent movers.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: They are made up of supervisory unions that are made up of school districts, and the seat does sole existence is to serve those supervisory unions. So theoretically, they should only be providing services that are meeting those standards.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thanks. And so, show us this aisle.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Good afternoon, I really feel like you've the groundwork has been laid and I we are very appreciative. Great questions, thank you for the opportunity to bring come back and again talk about the Vermont Learning Collaborative. I will pass the baton to Jill Graham, who's our Executive Director, who is most informed. I can speak to the experience we've had in our district as well as serving on that board and the kinds of oversight questions you're asking. So I will pass it over to Joe.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. So just before you start, I should have set this up a little better. Just, you know, we just got from council St. James sort of a legal framework and what we want to do with the rest of this time is really just hear how it actually translates to the ground. What you're actually doing, how you're actually utilizing it, what impact it's having. That's kind of what we're really interested in.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Excellent. Good afternoon, excuse me. Good afternoon, everyone. Can you hear me okay?

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Okay,

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: great. I do believe I have permission to share now. So the slide deck is really divided into two halves. The first half really talks about educational service agencies. And the second half really talks about some nationwide models to also give you some examples of what that looks like. So I'm going to pause once we finish the more local portion and take questions, and then we can decide if we'd like to proceed to looking at the national models. Does that work for the committee?

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Sure.

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Great. Okay, is my screen visible to the committee?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yes. Excellent.

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Alright, well thank you all. I appreciate the opportunity to present along with Sherry Sousa, Superintendent of Mountain Views and the founder, the founding member of our educational service agency. I'd like to start first with a working definition which comes from the national organization called the Association of Educational Services Agency. A regional public education agency is authorized by state statute or administrative code, and again exists primarily to provide instructional support, management, planning programs, and services to local education agencies. The primary role of the ESA is service to constituent districts and schools, not their regulation. And the BOCES or now CISA is the structure that has been adopted by Vermont. That definition is really important because it underscores and clarifies some information that's circulating around the state regarding what ESAs can and cannot do. And I think it's important to note it is ESAs are not a regulatory agency for schools, districts or supervisory unions. They are not another layer of bureaucracy. It is a service agency and its primary governance and accountability to its members. And just briefly, I'd like to give you some context in history. ESAs, which is the term that I will use that covers BOCES or CESAs, ESAs have been in existence since really the early 1900s, and they were created in response to real persistent challenges facing local school districts that did not have the scale or the resources to provide specialized services, comply with increasing regulatory requirements, or implement statewide initiatives effectively. So over time, EASs were developed regionally to support local school districts and provide that local capacity that districts could draw on as they need. So today, EASs are recognized by federal law. They operate in a majority of states They provide models for cost effective service delivery, support, professional development, and instructional programs. You can see all of the states here except those that are in gray have established statutes. This map is a couple of years old, so therefore it does not represent Vermont because we just passed that law in 2024. The role of educational service agencies, and this really speaks to the work that we have been doing, their core function is to offer services and support. This helps schools access specialized programs and technical assistance that individualized districts, especially those that are smaller or more rural, might not otherwise afford. Even the ethos that in other states serve very large urban districts with their services, because large scale does not mean that expertise or technical assistance is inherent within that district or that efficiency through shared regional resources is not possible. EASIS can also facilitate two way communication between state educational agencies and local schools, which can help to ensure smoother implementation of state initiatives and responsiveness to local needs. They do not, ESOs do not replace the organization of an SU or an SD. They supplement services, they do not supplement. And they address the identified needs of SUs and SDs by helping to build those collaborative relationships between them. As an educational partner, I always say to our board and to our constituent members that we should be the first call when one of our members has a need. Over the last year, some of the problems that we have addressed with our members have been helping to provide high quality professional development, utilizing internationally known experts and regional legal expertise, which builds educator and administrator capacity. Professional development is a great example of regional cost savings and efficiency, which has maximized SU and SD dollars. We also have been a responsive partner who can be a second or a third pair of objective eyes for members in regards to programmatic equity. We have provided quality reviews of existing programs as well as expert consultation to help rebuild existing specialized programs within SUs or SDS, as well as to improve upon their current models, which has helped to keep students locally within their school districts or supervisory unions. We've been able to recruit, hire, and provide high quality, hard to find positions such as speech language pathologists and BCBA districts in shared employment models so that that SU or SD has only needed to fund the portion of the FTE that was needed, which was a great example provided by attorney Saint James. It's important to note solutions are really unlimited and it's really again based on our members' needs. We talk about governments, and I was happy to hear the last portion of your conversation. Leadership of a educational service agency is by local educational officials who are part of the board and thereby it really promotes regional responsiveness. Our board is made up of superintendents, special education director designees, as well as a assistant superintendent designee. And board models may look different state to state for different ESAs. We conduct regular needs assessments with our school districts and supervisory unions. This ensures that our services are driven by real local priorities. We conduct annual audits as well as complete progress reports that helps to create transparency and accountability that does not add bureaucracy to schools. Those audits and progress reports are provided to not only the board, but to their school boards as well, promoting transparency. ESAs do not have the authority to impose sanctions or regulations. Our influence is collaborative and supportive, not administrative or disciplinary. It's not a new layer of authority. It's a shared service structure designed to help districts work together more efficiently. It's really about leveraging resources for identified service and staffing needs amongst members without disrupting their autonomy. As an agency that serves its constituent members, it's about providing opportunity for voice. So from our members group, our member groups, we hear what is it that are their needs and priorities for the region and what services or supports should be considered for the future. From there, it's about choice from the developed portfolio that an educational service agency has. A district or a supervisory union determines which services are most valuable and useful for them to access. And this will look different from district to district. Additionally, the region together may determine that they benefit from the same service or opportunity. This is where cautioning, for example, can happen in regards to professional development or cooperative purchasing. As far as the Southeast Region is concerned, this is our mission and is written in the language of BOCES because that is what was in effect when we were just approved in January. So the mission of our educational service agency is to jointly conduct educational services and programs for member supervisory districts and unions in a cost effective manner in order to increase educational opportunities for students ages three to 22 and to build the capacity of the staff serving them. So what this looks like, we launched in 2023 as a private nonprofit and initial services began in 2024. Our approval as a public educational service agency just occurred in January 2026. In 2025, we conducted a cost analysis of our services versus those of non BOCES or CISA providers used by our members. Across each of these service domains, our early data has demonstrated the capacity for cost savings. With staffing, we are able to share an FTE if needed amongst our members. So it can save up to 50% or more because that supervisory union in our district is only purchasing the fee that they need for their services. As a regional service provider, special education evaluation services has been a very valuable service for our members. We have demonstrated the ability to save anywhere from 20 to 50% depending upon the evaluation provided, as well as being very timely and efficient to ensure compliance with special education regulations for our members. We provided in district specialized consultation, strengthening supervisory union programs for high risk students, as well as reducing out of district placements. And this is usually savings of up to 62% compared to a non ESA provider. Supervisory unions and districts have experienced an average savings of around 60% or more on professional development compared to individually hosting these events or using a different provider. Local or virtual hosting has also helped to save them staff time and transportation costs. And we continue to partner regionally to explore the creation of localized programming in the least restrictive environment. We know that local high quality programming is important and that once we are able to develop those services, units will have less transportation time and will experience less transportation ease for our members. I have two case studies that sort of dive into this a little bit more specifically. The first is around professional development and the left hand side shows what conference costs could be outside of an educational service agency for a one day event. You can see the total cost is inclusive of a conference fee, which is probably very conservative, as well as travel accommodation costs and a staff but she provides substitute services. Our members receive a discounted fee for their professional development. It's typically virtual or very local, so there is limited to no travel and therefore a substitute service may or may not be needed. So you can see this offers significant cost savings. The second is around evaluation services, and this data again comes from our cost analysis. On the left hand side are evaluation services offered by a private clinic, and under each of these areas with academic evaluations, we see a savings of around 40%. Autism evaluations range from 39 to over 50% savings. Psychoeducational evaluations range from 30 to over 30 to over 35% and SLP evaluations were able to save around 24%. Again,

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: no

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: waiting list, immediate response time, really allowing our members to maintain compliance with their special education regulations. And the last slide I have that speaks to our local work. This data represents one of our member districts for whom we did a cost analysis of their services during the twenty four-twenty five school year. Data specifically is from 2025. On the left hand side of the table are the services that that supervisory union accessed during that year. So these range from professional development to assessment services to a contracted SLP,

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: as well as

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: performance consultation. You can see the cost for those services that they purchased in the member's counter column. Had they accessed those services as a non member, it would have been about 20% more than a member service. If they were accessing those services from a private clinic, it most likely would be even more expensive. So the furthest right hand column speaks to their member savings under each category and collectively they realized savings of over $25,000

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: we have a question. Yeah, there, yes.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Okay. Question is, that shows their savings. What does it cost to be in the CISA? And is that added in, reflected in the member cost analysis when you do it to be a member of the CISA or your per year price? Because obviously it's not free. So is that added into the grand totals when we come down to the end?

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: So when we look at this member cost analysis, their membership fee, and let me speak to that. So we are a new agency. We have just been approved in January. We've only been really in existence from 2024. This agency was founded because the region pooled some of their Astra funds to do the work to launch this agency, which included a needs assessment for the region, as well as nationwide search for an executive director. So this group was really ahead of the game. However, the funding for educational service agencies, the models differ around the nation. We are a fee for service. However, we are just building our service portfolio. Our membership fees currently cover administrative costs. So for this member cost analysis, their membership fee, considering that in the equation, they still experienced a net savings of over $9,000

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: And I'd like to speak to, so we pay our membership is based on our total student enrollment. So depending upon in our member in the Vermont Learning Collaborative, that's how we are determined what our investment it is for Mountain Views. We've used our IDEA grant, so it's not increasing our budget, but we're using those resources because of the parts of things that are not listed is the professional consultation. So I think the part that Jill provides when she says administrative costs, and it's important to note, we do not have an office for the Vermont Learning Collaborative. We have no overhead costs. So Jill works remotely. And so we've really been able to limit our administrative costs. Not only does membership allow you to have reduced rates for assessments or professional development, but it provides access to a high level expert in BOCES that are at your disposal when you want to call. So if I have a need or my special ed director has a need, we're gonna call Jill. Jill does not bill us for hours, say if it was an attorney consultation, you're paying for every minute that you're speaking with that individual. With Jill, unless there's a specific project that we've asked her to do, like come in and she did this, review all my special education services, make recommendations to grow. So that was a specific project that Jill was able to support with us. Yes, we paid for that. But having Jill on the phone and saying, for example, I need some professional development for my central office team, so they function better and we are more service oriented. That conversation, that brainstorming is part of the membership, a part of being the Vermont Learning Collaborative. And that's not captured, but that's what we have access to as being a member. That level of expertise, I could just tell you is just priceless.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Thanks.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: That's a great question and I think sometimes misrepresented,

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: so I appreciate the question. One more.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So, and this is for Jill. Could you handle the whole state? There's 83,000 students.

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: I beg your pardon?

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: There's 83,000 students. So is there the ability, do you think, for one or two? Or do we need five? Are we talking about for CSAs? Seven CSAs. Do you think we really need seven CSAs for Vermont?

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: I think that the challenge is geography, So let's look at a rural state like Wyoming or Colorado. They are actually more rural than Vermont. Some of them are considered frontier. They have. I don't want to misspeak, but I believe Wyoming or Colorado has either three or five educational service agencies for the state compared to Ohio, which has 51. We currently have been asked to provide some services outside of our member region, which we are more than happy to do. There is an impact of travel. I think to be efficient, looking at designated areas is helpful. I don't know how many would be or how few could be most efficient for the state, but I do think having larger regions is is helpful. Our region is is very accessible. You know, it's really an hour and a half sort of from top to bottom and probably an hour ish from east to west.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: But you work mainly remotely, correct?

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Correct. But I have service providers who are boots on the ground in the region.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Actually while we're having this discussion, do the service providers work for you? Are they on the payroll or do you contract for those services? So you contract for those services?

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: It's a great question. It's a little bit of both. We have a full time employee who is fully contracted within a supervisory union. I have per diem staff who help to provide our evaluation services. Then we do subcontract sometimes to help provide services as well.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And those per diem employees, some of them are very busy on a weekly basis and some are less depending on what the service is.

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Correct.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Do you have anything more?

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: I do. Are there any other questions from the committee as far as our work locally?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, yeah, I think that we may not need to go into the natural stuff you have unless there's something in particular you wanted us to use as an egg like.

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: I think what I'd like to do is just give you maybe one bullet point for each slide, because I think it's helpful if you are looking for references. I think this slide from Kentucky helps to demonstrate service portfolios and what they can look like. This slide from Ohio really helps to demonstrate cost savings for educational service agencies and the return on investment that those school districts see, as well as how the costs for the expenditures are directed towards their members with really a very low overhead for the agency itself. This slide is from Massachusetts. This is about special education programming and cost savings there. This slide I really like because it demonstrates how educational service agencies can help not only their local school districts and supervisory unions, but also their municipalities through cooperative purchasing. And this is around cooperative purchasing for electricity, electricity and gas. And then last but not least, you have two articles that I think do a really nice job outlining how ESOs have really been effective in addressing regional challenges for their school districts. This first one is from Joan Wade, who's the Executive Director for ASA. And this last is from John Bass, also from ASA, which is a really nice summary article that talks about how educational service agencies, no matter what you call them, really help to build capacity, help districts stretch limited resources and implement state priorities as well. Any other questions from the committee?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, one that I want to just ask Sherri. Will you go first if want to jump?

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. So, uh-uh questions really for Sherry. That's okay. I got

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: a fine. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: We'll go to see how other districts or SU's expressed a desire to now join in the seat, the BOCES as it's been formed?

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: As we demonstrate the success of this program, absolutely. And those are both those that are on the perimeter of the current composition, as well as Jill and I have spoken to the Superintendent's Association, Jill's spoken to VASBO. There is significant interest on this as an opportunity and model to help meet the needs of individual other SUs and SDs, so yes. And I just want to share that Jill and I are prepared and we've done a survey with superintendents and special ed directors and said, whatever we've done, we want to share. So we're willing to build a cohort of superintendents, SPED directors so that we can share the message and the training that we've had over these years as well as the written articles of agreement and all the other structures we've put in place.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Sherry, thank you. Can you remind us how many other superintendents have or reflected in this, where'd it go? Vermont Learning Collaborative. Yeah.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Yeah, there are eight total who are currently members of the collaborative.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Perfect.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: I think that,

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: oh, I'm sorry. One point that I just wanted to reiterate. So I'm on that board, special ed directors, but every action we take is affirmed by our individual school boards. So for example, when we had articles of agreement, those had to be validated and affirmed by our school boards. The representation on the Vermont Learning Collaborative Board is voted by the school board. So there's lots of oversight beyond us, you know, our administrative credentials and responsibilities and standards, but also the investment our school boards have made in it. So there's a lot of oversight within the structure of a collaborative.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Sherri, on that score, you've got eight SUs which means you've got a lot of school boards. Happens if what happens if 95% of them vote yes and a couple vote no?

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Well, the in order to be a member, you have to be approved by your SU board and so, I know myself and Jill many times has presented.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'm sorry. Meant on an action or on a policy or something to ask. Not how it gets formed but how you.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Correct. So we are asked, so those individuals who have been confirmed by their boards to be on the collaborative board have the authority to take action. It does not, our actions are not then brought back to the school boards. Yes.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, got it. Okay. How did you, when you set it up, if you have larger SUs and smaller SUs, how did you do the representation on post board?

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: We each have a representation based on our SU or SD, it's not based on enrollment.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Good.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: So there are eight members on that board that represent the eight SDSUs that are members.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Senator Ram Hinsdale.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: I always try to go back to what problems are we trying to solve and do any of these models help solve those problems. And I'm wondering if you can speak to the path to try and move towards regional high schools and a coherent CTE system and how any of this does or does not help us get there.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: So I think what problem we're trying to address and the reason why the superintendents of the Southeast came together for this purpose and really pooled a lot of resources, our ESSER dollars to make sure this happened as one quality of the educational experience for students who receive special needs. Having someone as experienced as Jill is, who are walking through each of our buildings, assessing our programs and giving us direction and guidance on how to move forward, important and allowing us to develop programs that are within our buildings. Our students who stay in our communities have the highest likelihood of moving and continuing and graduating and also coming to the point where they no longer need special services. To me, that's, and again, I'm a special ed teacher, high priority. It's what we've done in our district. And Jill has helped us elevate that work. Absolutely. Because she's working with every superintendent in the eight groups or eight representations, She is able to identify where there's assets in one place that can be benefit another. So we really are having conversations. I mean, we don't have a lot of time to have meetings. Jill is meeting with us each individually. For example, we have a really strong AI program. We've worked really hard to develop AI. Jill, our technology director spoke with Jill. We are now bringing the work we've done and the resources we've located to all the other eight SU's SD's. That's hugely impactful. And I know you all are talking about AI all the time, but an individual superintendent trying to do that work is really challenging. Jill was able to highlight that and is now spreading that knowledge across our region. So I think elevating the work, ensuring that every student has a similar experience and access to resources is something that a CISA can offer in a very efficient manner. How it will then translate to regional high schools? I'm not sure what I know what it translates and my experience has been. It makes sure that it helps to ensure that our students are having equitable resources and access to programming.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Hope that

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Are the CTEs at the table in any of these discussions? That's a big fear of mine, that they will once again be an afterthought in our education delivery system.

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: So for our region, we have a tech center located in Springfield and we have a tech center located in Hartford. While Hartford is not part of our CISA yet, they're highly involved in conversations with Jill. The Springfield is part of our CISA and their superintendent is involved. And so they are part of those conversations. So in our region, we don't have an individually established separate CTE. However, they can, I mean, in terms of your structure, what's so lovely about the way this is set up, it really is up to that region on how they structure? That's why we have articles of agreement. It's your opportunity to define your structure and who is involved and how.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You know, I'll just pause it while we're on a subject that just the fact that you are together on a regular basis and thinking regionally is going to lead to some of those things, unlikely to lead to some of those things. So thank you. Absolutely. Yep, we have a we wanna get to. Did you have anything you wanted to add? Sure. No, no. Okay.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: If there's any other questions for me, me know.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No. But stay if you stay on the screen now, it'd be great. There might be a question. Do what's left in here.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. For me. Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking about one CISA. If we need seven, we're gonna expect that there's gonna be seven of them that's gonna end up. What are the rules?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Some of that's in DeVille, in Indianapolis, that the house did the glass drop. So, for the record?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: I'm Cheryl Charles. I'm from Westminster. I'm here today in my role as chair of the Windham Northeast Supervisory Dean Board and chair of the Westminster School District Board. That's primarily why I'm here and because we're a member of this first CSA that was established and Jill Graham is the executive director that we work with on a regular basis. So, I'm going to go off from a little bit of the testimony that I shared with you about CESAs in January, not to review it all, but it's in your record. I will talk a little bit about how supervisory districts, supervisor unions, and CESAs work together. Then I'll give you specific examples of the cost savings and services that we're already seeing. You already know that our Southeast BOCES, now CSUS, grew out of work of the Vermont Learning Collaborative, which is a five zero one(three) or was. You've heard from our Executive Director, you've heard from Sherry Sousa, who was, they were both instrumental in creating this first CSUN. The members, if you haven't heard that list yet, it's in my testimony. I don't need to read it to you, but as you've heard, it's seven supervisory unions and one school district, which is Springfield, serving about 9,000 students from south to north there. We did develop articles of agreement. I have added for you to this testimony both the official approval by the agency of education on January 7, so Secretary Saunders signed that, you can see that. And I've added for your records the actual articles of agreement, me being among the people who signed it as chair of the Board Emergency Support. So, we really became official in January, but we had been working, Chittenden was hired about two years ago and really started this work to have the Because of World Experience to help us see how we could work together and achieve, it's really cost savings and services to kids. Those are the two major things that we're working on. As legislative council did, I put in a small chart that shows you some of the differences and similarities between supervisory union and a supervisory district. And while I agree with everything legislative council said, I wanted to point out to you in the testimony that there are differences in terms of who approves the budget in both the supervisory union or supervisory district. The supervisory union where I am, it's our towns that approve the local school district budget versus a merged district of multiple towns where it's that larger set of people that come together in like an annual meeting. You know, I was still in a place where we get to vote at town meeting, you know, active town meeting and local towns people are very much engaged. So, are some of those differences. Some differences of hiring either. I want to make it clear though, by looking at the supervisory union and the supervisory district, those are governance models. A CISA is not. It's a service agency. That's its function. So, in a CISA, supervisory unions and districts all work together. We're demonstrating that. So, it's not another administrative tier. It does not set policy. It's a lean service provider model. And as you know, we have one executive director, one full time staff person there, and services. So, beyond the fee, which I'll speak to, Sandra Williams, you asked about this when I was here in January, and I'll give you the fee amount this time. But we pay the fee, and we don't see that continuing over time. We see as this gets more robust, we're gonna be able to pay for the executive director salary out of the fees for services. But right now, we're paying a membership fee and then separately, each of us just pays for the services that we need.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: That's it. What's the membership fee?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: For us, it's $19,200 annually. I'll speak to that. I gave you some, I have in the testimony examples of the cost savings that we've seen, but Jill really shared so much of that with you. I'm not gonna go through that. It's my testimony, at least for the record, I don't need to go through all of that now unless you've got more questions. But she gave you the range of savings that we're seeing. So now I'm gonna speak specifically to what Windham Northeast is seeing, because that's where I live. I think I've told you all before, that was my eleventh year as a school board member, so I've been watching these changes and we're thrilled with the opportunity to see what CSEC can do for us. So currently the greatest potential for our significant cost savings at scale, as well as improved services for students, it's in the area of special education. That's where we're seeing the cost just escalate so dramatically. Sending students out of district to get the services they need and are required by law is more expensive than serving them within our supervisory union. But a lot of kids need very special expertise, so it's a dramatic savings for us to have the CISA identify the people who can help us, and then have us just pay for the ten hour a week that we need for a student.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Yes. You've seen a mass exodus of special ed teachers for the school system? The contract with them is.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: We we we're not seeing any mass exodus. No.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Because you have you have special ed teachers in here. We do. So where are they getting if you if you contract for special education teachers within the whole CISA, Is there an overabundance? Right. You have With the hard to find. Yep.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Yeah. The hard to find. And, actually, I I have a quote from superintendent Andy Hawes in here that speaks to a little bit how the CISA is helping with that. So the CISA hires the specialists we need and that we share the cost of appropriate preventive basis. And we're seeing immediate cost savings in the areas of professional development for both teachers and paraprofessionals. But there's some other cost savings that have appeared recently. So, is the statement I'd like to read from Andy Potts. For the WNSU, I think our biggest savings to date have been found with quality professional development offered at a discounted rate. The collaborative has been able to line up targeted PD for mental development for the region. After surveying members, that's part of how we can get some efficiency, looking at all, you know, is the eight districts SUs. And then lining up a series of workshops. To date, these have been virtual, which further reduces the cost. Recently, we were able to have the majority of our administrators attend the professional development session on employment and discipline employees specific to Vermont and its teachers at a fraction of what our law firm which we often obtain the services of. Just much less costly in that case. And then, to one of Senator Williams' questions, additionally, Jill is able to post positions for us on a national level, and that gains us greater exposure for free, or not paying for that posting. This is a recent story from Andy. When I was looking at possible consultants for strategic planning, Jill was able to research and vet numerous consultants and bring them to me, me, Andy. We met and discussed each of them that Andy achieved and their pros and cons. That is a part of the service that we don't pay for separately. That's what Sherry Souza was describing a bit ago. We call her up and she answers. So each of the strategic planning consultants that Andy and Cheryl essentially interviewed, the cost was a fraction of what we were getting from the Superintendent's Association. So

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: you said she picks up the phone and I thought, when I heard she does start charging for when does she she charging for educational services?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Something like writing a grant proposal.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: I have Jill answer that. I know for advice we don't

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: pay for it or something. I heard that hard. So

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: what If do you

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: there is a project that's specific to a school district or a supervisory union, if we are asked to provide a specific professional development just for them, that is something that we would build a quote for. If we are asked to provide a specific program consultation for a supervisory union, we would provide a quote for that or evaluation services. Those are the kinds of things that we would be providing.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: And is that the CISA end up paying for that, or does that district or supervisory union pay for that?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: If it is specific to the supervisory union or school district, they would pay for that service they're requesting for.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Thank you. So then Andy makes one additional comment. I learned the other week that the collaborative has evaluators who provide contracted services much cheaper and with a reduced turnaround than our typical outside vendor. And he's been told the evaluation is as good if not better. So, we're still learning in this process, but we're already getting tangible savings. Back to the cost, we have spent in this fiscal year, the 19,200 membership fee,

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: and a

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: total of $2,250 for professional development for employees in all of our member districts being half in Scranton, Rutland, Westminster. As I said, she's a phone call away from Andy. I'm not the one who calls. Andy sits on the board, he's the superintendent, he directly communicates, and our special education director does as well. Jill gave me a list of the specific services she's provided in the issue today, so I list those. It's her participation on hours in regional board meetings so that we are able to provide in board and what services this new agency that Vermont Learning Collaborative provides.

[Terry Williams (Clerk)]: What do we have? Okay. Yes.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Sorry. Yeah. Tell me if I'm talking too fast. I'm watching her time.

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: So, this might be a big question, I know it's still early on in the process, but what, if any, challenges or roadblocks or warnings you have about the

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: I don't about the CISA. Specific to special education, there's a shortage of talented people that fill those needs. But I came from the Western US and I've been familiar with educational service districts or educational service agencies for a really long time. And the track record is real. Hit up, we're one of six states. Doesn't have it up and running.

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: So, I'll kind of reframe the question. So, let's say the Southwest Corner Of Vermont, they want a form at Mesa and those folks came to the Southeast Corner and they said, What advice do you have for us? What pitfalls should we avoid as we form this? And just, you know, advice for the first years. Are there any challenges ASEA has encountered?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Well, you know, I think both Jill and Sherry can address this, but from observation and my own conversations with Andy, I mean, you have to get people, you've got staff superintendents to sit around the table, and if they haven't done so already, to establish a trust. And they need to figure out together what they folks need, what can we come together to agree on with most health all of us? And I'm back to, we'll serve the kids and we'll save us money. So challenges are trust building, communication, you don't do that immediately. And

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: that's a great piece of information. And this might be a question for Ledge Council, but with what we have in H955, are the SUs forced into the CSA, or is it a voluntary?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: We've thought about that a lot, and I think that it's fine to be assigned to a CSIP for every district in the state and supervisory union with some flexibility if a nearby one has a better match the needs that we're looking at. What I don't like or support about nine fifty five is the simultaneous requirement to have a study committee look at the potential for merger. I think it takes the focus off of what a CISA can accomplish. I'd much rather see a genuine clear focus on getting a shared service entity up in any region of the state. And let's start with the seven that we're talking about. And I think that you need, I think those CSOs do need the skill of consultants to come in like a Jill and a Sherry and those who've already, and our other superintendents can help as well. To get the other ones in the state up and running. Sherry Sousa said this a long time ago, think maybe January in house ed, that there are a number of qualified people in the state who could serve in the ED role. Make some technical support they need. That's that's a challenge to your to your question. But I I believe in early Michigan again to September. I don't like the mandate to get up a study committee simultaneously to try to stand up for Stifel. No.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I just go ahead. I I had No. Had a bad point. A dandy crisis. So, talking Just about for clarification, did you say the superintendent currently sits as a board member of the BOCES board of directors? Correct. All eight, are they all eight representatives on the board, superintendents?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: And Sherry can answer that because she's on the board.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So I can actually answer that for the group. So we have four superintendents who sit on our board. We have three special education director designees, and we have one essentially assistant superintendent designee who sits on the board.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Senator Senator Windham. So I'll go back to the constructs of post design. So, you know, everybody had a chance to look into forming one and then collaboratively share between BOCES that for services they didn't have. It almost sounds like if everybody's going to get involved in it that we would almost have to have one agency at some point that coordinates it. You seem real happy with what you've got. They'd see us get involved in it and screw that up. You what I'm saying.

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Yeah. You you see it in other states. We can have the seven CESAs each really serving its members with a board listening what their needs are, but then they'll come together, you know, figure out an annual gathering and they can share ideas with one another. And other states do that where they bring the directors of the respective seasons together.

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I mean, you're saving that kind of money, that just makes so much sense to why we're, why haven't we done anything?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Well, the previous one, the requirement to be in a CISA was voluntary. It wasn't our work. I do like this about I do think it'll benefit all of us if we actually have every SD and issue. Then I think

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Every SD and SU what?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Joined CSUN. Signed? Then I said really in

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: this testimony,

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: said with the flexibility to move to another CSUN, they keep their own autonomy, they keep their own agency, they keep their own governance model, but they are required to come together to figure out savings and how to improve things for kids. That's I do support them.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we have only a couple more minutes. So I just want to reiterate that your your fear about the way nine fifty five is drafted is that CSOCs have their first couple of years focused on work district workers rather than on what a CSOC normally does. Yes. Okay. So, you have anything else you want to add before?

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: Just to reiterate, there's one, there's a quote from the pre districting task force that I love. I think they did great work. I think their report is so comprehensive. I urge everybody to review that again. But just a closing statement quoting from the task force final report. The CECL model consolidates only those functions that can't be delivered efficiently or consistently at the local level. Regionalizing these shared high cost and low frequency services such as multidisciplinary evaluations, itinerant specialists, professional development, and business operations, create scale where it matters without altering school governance or local decision making over instruction, staffing or budgeting. Local districts continue to operate schools, set priorities and retain all responsibilities for student learning and community engagement. So CISA service shared infrastructure, not a new governing body. They provide regional capacity that districts draw on at cost with transparent pricing, annual audits, you heard that, and surplus refunds. In practice, see this function as a wholesale provider of specialized and technical services, allow districts to redirect time and resources towards students rather than duplicating complex operations in parallel, reducing the need to increase spending. So I so appreciate your time.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. We actually have three questions. Okay. So

[David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: none of you have to convince You're apprinted to the choir. Three of the members on the committee now were here when we created both of these. So we understand the concept, we understand the business and logistics efficiencies. This question is to Sheridan. So given the limited geographic footprint of the current BLC, you seeing the possible benefit for a single superintendent overseeing the same BOCES territory?

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: So that is a great question. I'm so glad you asked it because what it brings to mind is previously, and again, I've been here a very long time, so Vermont did have a structure of collaboratives. I was when I arrived thirty years ago, want to say twenty, thirty years ago, we were a member of the Hartford Collaborative. The problem that I saw in the collaborative is that one superintendent, one school district supervised all the resources and were responsible for the managing of that collaborative. What I like about this model is that we all have the same responsibility, same access, same accountability. And so services are very equitably, and I'm not saying Hartford overused their resources, but they were owning all the work. And I just bought in and bought what I wanted in terms of services. What I really, and I think that is why many collaboratives didn't last in Vermont. I talked to Ken Kramberg and Ken's like, we used to have these everywhere. Absolutely. The problem was it lived with one superintendent, one district or SU, and they were responsible for doing all the management and oversight. What I like about this model is Jill is our director. She is the director for all eight of us. We all have equal investment in that board. We all have equal investment in success. We all review every month the accountability and the budget and how resources are allocated. So we all have skin in the game. And so we all have to ensure the success of this program. Whereas Collaboratives, as you just described, really made all the responsibility on one superintendent of SDSU and the rest of us benefited from it. And I think for Hartford, and again, I don't like speaking for them, I think that became overwhelming. So I like this model of shared responsibility and input and assessment of our needs, and that really adds to the conversations that result in high quality programming and services. Thank you for that question.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Senator Hashim.

[Nader Hashim (Member)]: One question maybe for for anybody. We've or at least I've heard some concerns that a CSA is just another layer of bureaucracy and administration that creates more physicians and costs more money. Is there any credence to that or what are your thoughts on that sentiment?

[Sherry Sousa, Superintendent, Mountain Views; Board Member, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: Do you see my hair standing on end? I think those are people who have not worked in those kinds of resources. Again, we have some lowest special education costs because we benefit from Hartford. That trainer program, we serviced students in our district. So I became a member of the Learning Collaborative because of the positive relationship I had with the Hartford Collaborative. I too came from Massachusetts as Jill does. This is just how we did business. So if you know how successful this is, you don't see it as an extra governance structure just as you just heard. It really is a resource and a service. So I hear that from people who have not had the positive experience I've had both in Massachusetts and Vermont, and I just want to give them a chance. I think one of the most important pieces that Jill has said before, ceases are only limited by the creativity of the team that works with it. There are so many opportunities that we haven't even begun to realize. And as we work in this, we become more and more involved as a member. There are just so much more. It is not about governance. It's not about oversight. It's about building relationships and teams that meet students' needs.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you.

[Jill Graham, Executive Director, Vermont Learning Collaborative]: If I can just piggyback on Sherry's statement. Slide six really speaks to this, but I just want to again reiterate. I think this is a misunderstanding in the state. They are not another layer of bureaucracy. CESAs exist or educational service agencies exist to amplify regional and local voice to be able to provide the services that are needed within that region. I think when it comes to administrative costs, need to just re emphasize we are a fledgling agency. This is an unfunded opportunity that really our agency was able to stand up based on the forward thinking of the eight superintendents within the region and the funds that they had available at the time with ESRA availability. So I appreciate you asking that question and I appreciate you allowing us to respond.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thanks everybody. May I make

[Cheryl Charles, Chair, Windham Northeast Supervisory Union Board; Chair, Westminster School District Board]: this very brief? But to one of Senator Ram Hinsdale's questions, I think if we get the seven CSAs in the state or something like that, those superintendents and others coming together on a regular basis, monthly as you heard, I think it's going to lead to the potential for the regional middle schools and the conference of high school. I think we just need to get to know one another. This will help facilitate that while also serving kids at Sacred Heart. So thank you again. Betsy, take

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: a quick break. We're going to be here late tonight. So there's been a lot to do. A quick break, five after. How about the first time? I'm sorry, meant ten after.