Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Committee staff or unidentified senator]: We're live.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We work back after a short break, helping gears quickly, to teach, five forty two and activating to permanent testing in schools in Vermont for PCV. Some testimony from people who have been through the process, the third stages of the process, and you were able to come today. So for the record, you are.

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: Hi, I'm Elaine Collins. I am the superintendent for North Country Supervisory Union. I'm about my fourth year in that position, my thirty sixth year working at Hampton Heart East Midnight Schools in a variety of different roles. Just to give you context, our schools range from right now entry on the East Side to J Westfield on the West Side, 12 schools in between. There are 65 miles from one end to another, about five twenty square miles. A lot of time in my car. So we had about 2,630 students in North Country. Of the schools that are in our supervisory union, five of them actually had PCBs identified through them at various levels. Right now, elementary school, Derby, Charleston, New York City, and the high school. I'll give you just kind of like a superficial background around PCBs. It's a language that I hoped I would never learn and yet have been steeped in. So Pre K levels, the upper end of limit is 30. For K to six kids, the upper end limit is 60. And for seventh grader adults, that number is 100. You can have anything between the upper limits to three times that level and still be in the room. When you reach the three times that amount, then you have to think about ways of not using those rooms or limiting your occupancy on those rooms. So, 30 names, 90? Right, so for pre K students, that's 90. For K to six, that would be 180, and for seventh grade through high school that's what we have. School action level would be above those upper limits, and then immediate action level is what it's referred to as three times the limit. So when air sampling happens, they basically come in, they inventory all of your materials and they determine what rooms are similar, what rooms have the same univents, the same paint, the same building materials. They group those into groups and then they test 30% of those rooms and then say, extrapolate the data and say all the rooms in that data set, even if there are varying levels in that data set, you go with the upper limit and that determines your occupancy. So my first year as a superintendent testing happened, welcome to the superintendency, and we found Charleston and Derby had PCBs identified in things like boiler road, electrical road. They did some mediation. They worked for state. They got rid of the PCB containing materials. Newport City had PCBs in a janitorial closet. Nobody's spending time in the janitorial closet and in a girl's bathroom. And hopefully nobody's spending significant amounts of time in a girl's bathroom. So we didn't really need to do anything there. There were no identified materials that were outputting PCBs, but the numbers have continued to come down without identifying any operating materials and without really doing anything. So they're just going to continue to test accordingly. Brighton had PCB levels that were the highest in their preschool room, ironically. So their numbers in preschool were about 200. And as you remember from my opening, 90 is the limit. So we had to, that was in May of that school year. We had to end preschool early. And for K-six students, they had to limit their occupancy of the building to twenty seven hours a week. So we, thankfully, they was nice and warm and we could get them outside for field trips and for other things. And we never really identify a source in Brighton, which is also interesting. And did things like put in the air purifiers. Again, identified a source, but the numbers continued to decrease to the point where we were able to bring Pre K back into the building, even though there was no source identified. My running theory is that they replaced their LED lights about three months before PCB testing happened, and dust if there's PCB containing dust in that project, stirred up some PCBs in the air, perhaps that's where the PCBs came from. All of those schools were about $500,000 for PCP mitigation. We had pre K off-site for a year, the rental for the building, tried to get a modular in, that was a colossal failure, but it cost us some money. So about $500,000 And then I know you heard from my friend and colleague, Chris Young, yesterday, who's the principal of North Country High School. They, of course, have had the largest problem. And I'll kind of give you some timeline January '23, the air tests were high. In '23, we installed 134 carbon filters at about $150 a piece. Increased airflow was encouraged. More air tests done in August '3. In September, more tests were done because the August numbers weren't great. And they confirmed that the data was getting worse and not better. In December, in the BNC wing, the doors, windows, and expansion joints were encapsulated, basically just like polyurethane to keep the PCBs in. And then in January 24, more tests. April 24, C Way, which is the Career Center Classrooms, did some additional mitigation. May '24, we gathered together with around 17 or 20 of us to plan basically a $3,200,000 project in C Wing. This high school is split into A Wing, B Wing, C Wing, V Wing is all academic. C Wing is basically the career center. At that point, they were more concerned about career center. So they said, Well, just for kicks, let's test B wing again to see what happens. And my question of the day was, Well, what happens if we test B wing and the numbers aren't good? And they said, Well, let's plan for basically scaling up the project. Originally it was $3,100,000 It ended up being a $5,200,000 remediation project. Through June and August, there were about 100 workers crawling around viewing and sealing, basically painting all the walls, a lovely institutional gray, and then taking the caulking out from around the windows and encapsulating that. August came around and the numbers weren't good. They were worse. So we had to plan for instruction, right? And kids coming back in several weeks, right? So all summer we were planning for what does it look like if the test results didn't come back? Had wedding tents, as it turns out. Mean, you heard from my friends, Mr. Young. Nobody says in schools, Let's educate seven twenty kids in tents. That'll be a good time. But we really reprioritized right from the get go that in person learning was our priority. We knew both of us, both Chris Young and I had been principals during COVID and knew that we lost a lot of kids during COVID to remote instruction and that we knew if we went remote that we would lose a lot of kids that we would never regain. So we prioritized whatever that would look like. We needed to be in person. And so we got six wedding tents. We set up, you know, tent town, tent city. We named them, decorated them as best as we could. Got over about a two week period, got floors, walls, heat, fans, Wi Fi, electricity. It was a gargantuan effort and a lot of money, and we pulled it off. So kids came back to school a week later than anticipated. SAC was great. Parents were super grateful to have their kids in school. They again and again said, Thank God you didn't go remote. That was horrible. That was the 2024, last summer. We tested again and the numbers were almost as high as prior summer. And the difference between 2024 and 2025 is that we were able to use average air sample data instead of point in time, which was something we've been really fighting for the year before. There's a cynical part of me that thinks maybe because we were out of money that we were able to use average data points rather than point in time, doesn't matter. We were able to use the school. We had a fair amount of pushback from our staff, right? Because how come 1,800, levels of 1,800 in our rooms weren't good last summer, but this summer we're able to use, right? This fall we're able to use them. It's a valid question. Department of Health came up, Department of Environmental Conservation did an informational session with our staff and eased their worries. It feels as though for all of the disruption, right, we're still in the same place now as we were when they originally got our numbers back and we've spent a lot of money. So in the North Country Career Center and high school, we've got some additional projects during next week's April vacation. We have basically a roofing, the rubber mat that goes on top of the roof is gonna be placed around the school. They did some soil sampling during school, did basically a pneumatic drill and did 130 soil samples around the school. Wasn't interrupting at all to have this huge machine doing pneumatic drilling outside, but we got samples back that again, were far exceeding the acceptable levels at something like two parts per billion. And we had, again, 1,800 as some of our higher limits. As far as three feet down and 10 feet away from the building and the soil. So the theory is by putting the rubber mat down and then putting piece stone on top of it that it will keep the uni vents from sucking that off putting air back into the building Hopefully it doesn't create other problems like, you know, storm water runoff or other things, but That's to be determined. It's about $135,000 Between the $135,000 for the rubber mats and the P stones, the $560,000 that I just ran through that had testing, independent consulting, we're at about million dollars between the $500,000 of the other four schools and the high school since 2023. We're at a point where we've sunk a lot of money into a building that we're likely going to have to rebuild. PCBs, the superstructure of the building has been tested. PCBs have concentrated in the middle of the concrete pillars. So because that's where the windows touch the concrete pillars and there's this off putting and absorption all the time of things that have PCBs in them, and window caulking was the greatest emitter. So when windows are up against the concrete, which is porous, as you know, it absorbs the PCBs at the middle of the concrete column. And I'm not sure we would be able to carve out five inches from the middle of a concrete pillar that's holding up the building and still say that the structural integrity is sound. That being said, it's a 60 year old building. During the assessments of the building that Veritas did was at 2022, the building was staged to be at 94% used up, right? So we're going to have to do something different in the high school. Even if we were to remediate, it would cost us more to get rid of the PCBs by hand or with mechanical tools than it would be to just raze the building and start over in terms of PCB medication. It's about $21,000,000 estimated to get rid of them through hand tools, 15 for mechanical tools, and then to raze the building would be about 12,000,000.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So total amount to raise it and how much to build it?

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: That's the question, right? 180, 200,000,000 would be probably a great estimate. And we're under a timeline, as you know. Once you ring the bell, you can't unring the bell. EPA knows we have PCBs and we'll either need to encapsulate them or renovate to the point where it's stable, test in perpetuity, which is about $250,000 per year, And if there's any bleed through, we would be on the hook for trying to remediate or renovate. So let's say we were to put 21,000,000 or even 15,000,000 in, and ten years down the road, we are gonna have to do something large scale because they've come through again, our voters would ride us out of town on a rail. So we're likely at a point where we're gonna have to rebuild and it would be wonderful if we could partner this PCB project if it continues with school construction aid, right? There are bound to be other schools like North Country that exist in Vermont. It's extraordinarily expensive, right? It's not just the testing, it's what happens when you find them, right? And so $9,000,000 so far just in North Country and we're not through it with the high school and what other North Countries exist in the state. And if you're gonna continue it, you have to sort of be prepared for that. It would be much more, would be more thoughtful and planful, I would think, if you thought about those schools and said, okay, rather than putting $9,000,000 into a building that we're probably going to have to tear down and start over, how about if we put some of that money towards school construction aid and help us to rebuild? And then, oh, by the way, while we're redistricting, is there a possibility of making this more of a regional high school? And so every problem also has opportunities embedded in it. And the high school is a great opportunity for the legislature to look at the policy and the procedure that's put into place. There was very little forethought and nobody thought that we would be in the place that we are. No one considered what would happen when we got to this point. If we found PCBs, right, it was just, let's just test. And here we are. Two summers ago PCBs literally consumed every moment of everybody's spine. Every administrator at the high school, the two assistant principals, the high school principal, myself, there was nothing that we did that was educationally related except try to plan for in person instruction and get rid of PCBs. So if the point is to help schools make them safer, then we need to have a longer term vision and need to think about carefully how much interruption the PCB program provides for kids in admissions. So, I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So, obviously, they've been admitting these PCBs since construction?

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: I would imagine, right? I think the theory is as the chemicals degrade that there's more outputting that happens, and the school's been there for sixty years. So the science around PCBs is somewhat inexact because everybody, there's no, if you spend ten years in a building at this level, you're going to develop cancer, right? Everybody's immune systems are different. Everybody's predisposition to cancer to develop a cancer is different. Everyone comes at it with a slightly different variable. And there's PCBs everywhere. They're in the food that we need, they're in the air that we breathe everywhere. They're not just in schools, but we're dealing with just schools right now. Yeah, inexact science, somewhat.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: How many kids at high school? Seven twenty. Okay. Working worker, yeah.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Yes. The inconsistency or the inexact science reminded me something else we had heard, I think, by a year about the testing, or actually, maybe I heard this when I went to one of my high schools, but testing in your area, do you found that that it can be kind of all over the place? Because what what I've seen and heard is that at least in one high school, you know, in one part of the school, the levels were, you know, super high at one point and then shortly after, they were super low and then they were fluctuating all over the place And can you share a bit more about the inexact science on it?

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: Well, the EPA standard is really testing materials, building materials. It's not air. So air, as we all know, isn't static, right? It moves constantly. So the other thing to know about PCB testing is when you test in really hot humid conditions, the numbers go way up, right? And so when we tested in June and it's 90 degrees and humid outside, you're likely not going to have great test results. And that's what happened the '24 when we needed to be intense. They tested in a week in June when it was 90 or 95, super humid out, and the test results were off the charts. It continued to be really humid that summer. They did the mitigation. And then actually when they retested, some of the numbers were higher after they did the mitigation, right? But it was still really humid in the building. So the thing that got us back in the building was that they put basically a zero gravity thing in each room, in each classroom, zero gravity situation, and replaced the air six times an hour for twenty four hours in every classroom. They had these massive wind tunnels in each classroom. And then that's what brought the results down. And it also was October at that, like the September, October. And what happens with the air temperature in Northern Vermont or anywhere in Vermont at that time, it starts to drop. Our nights were colder and so the numbers came down and I figured all to get in. You can't be intense when it snows. They went back in the school building on October 15 and it snowed the next day. So, you know, it was great timing for us to get back in the building, but seeing, based on what happened in '24 and then based on what happened in '25, time of year, air conditions, and you can have rooms that are right next to each other that sample vastly different. Who knows why? Maybe it's something that's in that room that is containing a PCB material, but one room you can use and the next room you can't. The air knows to stay in each of those rooms, right? Feels a little bit like a shelving. Yeah. Yeah.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: And I was just gonna follow-up and comment briefly that I think that's something we should keep in the back of our minds as we continue discussing this because I know there's understandably an initial emotional response to just the concept of kids and staff being exposed to PCBs, but when you take a step back and you think about the inconsistent results from the testing, and it goes back to the other question of, are they actually being regularly exposed to the amount of PCBs that are concerning. So,

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: just a comment.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Would be after Jacob perhaps comes in.

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: Yeah. The other thing I think we got somewhat different information when Doctor. Levine was in charge of this program. We had a rather lively conversation with our community and board members about PCBs and he said one high exposure to PCBs can cause non cancerous health risks. So things like autoimmune disorders and other things. And so that was brought up again this past summer when the numbers were high and we were told we could be in the building by some staff and Doctor. Looking's replacement, I'm spacing on her name right now, said, Well yes, that in fact is true, but the numbers would have to be 10 times what they are in your building. That would be for an environmental disaster, like a chemical spill or something to that effect. But that wasn't information that was shared with us. And when you hear, when you're a parent or a staff member who hears one time exposure, eye levels, what does that mean? The messaging around this should be a bit more concise. The information that is shared should also be concise. It's not to throw anyone under the bus. The agency of education, the Department of Environment Conservation and the Department of Health have been working as hard as they can to support us. It's just, in my opinion, a flawed system that needs some really careful consideration if it is to move forward, especially since it is very disruptive to the learning environment.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So, you had to put the first two. Thank you.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So you have 12 schools, you said five were tested. Well, we

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: had more tested, but five that tested positive.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: That's my real question is, have all of the higher risk, I. E, those that were built, before 1980 or after '19 Before 1980. Okay, very good. Thank you. Have all those higher risk schools facilities been tested?

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: All of our schools that require testing have been tested. So the five of the 12 were the ones that tested positive for higher PCB levels.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Okay, then if you can comment on, because I think your colleague yesterday was commenting on the point in time testing versus the average. Yes. I thought that, I thought from her conversation at the end of that conversation, he or she, I can't remember, said that there were still at the point in time testing as far as a threshold.

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: It may be, you heard from Rebecca Philly and Twin Valley, I don't, they may be earlier in the process. We were trying the '24 to do average levels. They advocated very hard for that because the average might have gotten us able to at least use the and try to mitigate while we were going along. And the Department of Health didn't feel as though they had enough data sets at that point. We've done data sets ad nauseam at the high school, and so now they feel confident that we have enough data to say it's average. I don't know. I think time of year, humidity levels, air movement, all those things are factors, and we're not really in school for long periods of time when it's really, really hot. May sometimes turns out really hot. Sometimes May can be pretty cool and wet. June sometimes is hot, sometimes it's not, right? But over the hottest periods of the summer, generally we're not in school. So it feels like that should be and could be taken into consideration. So

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the question we've been asking witnesses is we have a bill in front of us. So I think we've tested about half the schools on the farm. We've heard a lot about what happens with some people. And so the question in front of us is, have, in a way, at this point, kind of have two options in front of us. Well, guess we have three. One would be just to continue the way it is. The other one is to suspend or to end it altogether. And the other Pat suggested to us is to tie it to master planning and school construction and the whole regionalized school with sugar. Yes. Everything else. So we'd be asking, is there advice, as somebody who's been through it, what's your advice to us?

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: I think if you don't stop it all together, you at least need to pause it to come up with a better plan. So what is that plan? When we started doing lead testing and asbestos testing, there was a lot of expert testimony and a process and a procedure. There's not a school in Vermont who doesn't know what to do for lead testing or asbestos testing. And it feels like we're still very much lab rats in a science experiment with PCBs. And shouldn't feel that way while you're also trying to run school systems, right? And ensure health and safety of both staff and students. So what does that look like in schools? And if you can determine some rules of the game, I think that would help schools that might be navigating it moving forward. If

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: were a superintendent of, there are superintendents who's not every school in their SU has been tested yet, or none of them have been tested yet. And so the question in my mind would be, do we have PCBs and should we be worried about them, right? And there are community members who have different reactions, just like during COVID with masks. Have people who are like, this is a conspiracy and I'm not leaving my house ever, right? It's the same with PCBs, people who think you know, it's a conspiracy, you're out to get a new school, all the way up to, I really worry about my own health or the health and safety of my child. So it's a hard question to answer. It's a hard position for you to be in. The horse is kind of out of the barn, right? You probably know I was a partner's daughter and I use a lot of adages that my dad would say. It's hard to get the horse back in the barn once it's out. So, you're likely gonna get a lot of pressure if you try to stop, right, to continue, but I would encourage you to do the two other options, is to stop and pause and make sure you have a better process in place. Once you reach a point of no return with a school like North Country, instead of continuing to pour hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars into a school, be thinking about how could we leverage those funds for school construction aid instead? That just seems like a smarter long term solution.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'll have more here.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: What you doing? More of a committee statement. Our job is to set policy and I don't think we have enough data to set the policy because this I'm not a chemist. I'm not a so I'm thinking that maybe this bill shouldn't even be here. It should be you agency of natural resources committee or some other committee where we can get the qualified people to make the decision. I mean, it's it's a lot of money that's been spent, and and we keep going down this road, it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Know? To your point, maybe we're better off to save the money and put it in school for sure. But how do you prioritize until you know which schools have to be enhancing the

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: state of the realm of state?

[Committee staff or unidentified senator]: I would actually pause it

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: that there's an even better committee than both of ours, is institutions. That's where the school construction fund used to live, and getting all the relevant experts in to then prioritize how the money is used and which school they're even funding a reconstruction plan for so we don't keep spending money without solving the problem.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I'm not trying to call a problem with it. I'm just saying who might be

[Committee staff or unidentified senator]: Yes. Think of this determination.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I think some I mean, I I am hoping that somewhere in this universe, the institutions committee feels empowered to to understand the history of school construction, when it stopped, why it stopped, and what all the conversations have looked like to restart it. Because states that are successful generally tend to have a separate building authority with made up of experts on buildings, which isn't either of our committees necessarily.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So so what's the limit where you can turn to the federal government and say, hey. I think we got a hazardous waste cleanup site here. Mhmm. You know? Because we don't really know. You know, we're just looking at the schools. Could be in the stalls. It could be in, you know, the shopping mall and concerns that the teachers and students are the captives and. Right? Sure. You know, somebody maybe institutions should push it up to a federal delegation. I'm not qualified to make that decision. I can't feel confident in certain policy with the data I've got.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, we have Michael Green coming in and we're working to continue the discussion with Ben. Thank you. And I've actually sent an office that can be intrigued with that notion of what it can be, gets me thinking about as the human healing expense all with, because it's our policy, this is our as well.

[Committee staff or unidentified senator]: I mean, I'm happy to interpret It's cross jurisdictional. We should all be thinking about school buildings.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's So, So, okay. Thank you for coming in.

[Committee staff or unidentified senator]: Sure. Thank you for having me.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you for coming down. I prefer to be in person.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: You're very used to driving. I am. Much more compelling than you and so

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: it's very compelling. Yes, it's much easier to read the word and to answer questions as well.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we are shifting gears, and we had our first bit of testimony yesterday I'm trying to get a feel for what the school merger process is like, both meeting up through the vote and after the vote, and then also thinking about how to attach dollars to those two processes, those two portions of the process, which there's the emphasis where it's pulled back and you've been through this, so we're get Jack Wilson's went through it. Also a drug, so I'm sure. Laura Johnson.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: Alright. Thank you, Senator. Jamie Kernan, superintendent of schools of the White River Valley Supervisory Union, which serves 10 towns for the White River Valley, not White River Junction. I have to remind folks that have been some times. And so, Senator, we did merge two supervisory unions into one, and we did have, during Ag forty six, which is what your policy proposal talks about. Yes. And then after the two SUs merged, then there was mergers within the SU to Unified School District. Okay. So I want to thank your committee for allowing me the opportunity today to talk about Act 73 and the transition mechanisms that will occur within the proposal for transformation as provided via Act 73, which you've been discussing that for several weeks. I have to take the opportunity to also once again thank you for your hybrid approach to mapping that provides for both supervisory unions and supervisory districts in the future state, and wanna just share my gratitude for that. In addition, I was watching your committee last Friday and want to also share my support and your consideration of either delaying the implementation of any class size requirements or eliminating that provision altogether. As was discussed last Friday by Senator Ram Hinsdale, the financial savings will be a result of the implementation of the foundation formula within the bill you're discussing and the rest of the discussions around the provisions such as minimal class sizes are an unnecessary distraction throughout the future.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So thank you for mentioning that.

[Committee staff or unidentified senator]: Oh, thank you for thanking me. Don't get

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: thanked a lot of this.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: I'm here today though to focus my testimony on what will need to occur at the passage of the federal in order for the new report and supervisory units not only become operational, but also exhibit efficiencies upon their implementation date. That date of implementation has currently drafted in 07/01/2027. I do want you to think about as I walk through the idea of what's going to need to happen within these larger SUs of whether or not that it would make sense for the implementation to occur on 07/01/2028. So to make certain that we don't create new SUs that are running parallel systems and make sure that they start in regards to operation as being as efficient as possible in regards to providing the service that a supervisor may need. So upon organization of these new SEUs, there's going be a great deal of work that will need to occur via the transition boards in order for these newly formed supervisory units to become as effective and efficient as possible. It would also provide it so that time provided for implementation would also allow your transition boards to get up to speed a bit about what we're actually talking about. As someone who has 31 board members that I serve, it's going to take some time for those folks to realize that we are now creating a transition board for the larger SU. In regards to the map that you have around the Randolph Area Supervisory Institute, it has the WRV SU plus the OSSD, the Orange Southwest School District Board, and the Theffernan School District Board all coming together. Right now, boards have to kick off a meeting within thirty days. I'm suggesting that ninety days may be more realistic, especially during the timing of the summer in order to ensure that those board members are present, number one, and fully engaged in understanding the work ahead. So what is that work ahead? So the work ahead for those transition boards is gonna be governing bylaws. And so what are governing bylaws? Things like, remember in state statute, you were talking about this, I believe about two weeks ago when I was sitting in, the SU boards by statute, if you're an operating school district, if you operate any grades, it's three members from an operating school district appointed to the SU board. So within the WRBSU, I have five operating school districts and one that is a non operating school district, Randville Hancock. Per statute non operating school districts have one member appointed. There is a provision that can allow a district to petition the state board if they have a larger number of average daily membership makeup within the SU to have a larger number of voting member seats. Thus far, the state board has not taken action on that type of petition. There was a petition as an example of something just like what I discussed just prior at the Central Vermont Supervisory Union recently where Payne Mountain School District petitioned the state board to have larger membership on the SU board because CVSU is made up of Payne Mountain and Echo Valley. So there's four towns, two unified school districts, but Payne Mountain serves Williamstown Northfield and has a much larger student population versus Echo Valley, is which a smaller district. State Board did not rule on that request because the work that's happening around education transformation. If I'm giving you all that context to say the bylaws will help set in stone that type of voting membership. Hopefully you can pull that transition board together and those new board members can decide how they're gonna operate. And so there are bylaws on our website that I will share with all of you that will lay out all the things that need to be worked out within the bylaws, which is also how the SU will assess for services. That's decided at the SU level and each SU does that a bit differently, but that board decides how they want to do that within the bylaws. Some will use average daily membership, some will use average daily membership plus enrollment, and for some services, some SUs still directly go back to the district based on dollar spending. That would all be sorted in the bylaws just so you have a little context what I'm talking about with governing bylaws.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: When you put together the two SUs, did you have a

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: checklist? I came in right after they were merged. Okay. So I did not merge the SU. I have board members that are certainly there as part of the SU, and this is the list they went through. So what I'm giving you is based on their lived experience. Next is policy, because policy typically is set at the SU level. We have a policy on policy that speaks to the SU policy is what governs the work of the SU, that is in order to create more efficiency in regards to the SU operating well. We don't have district different district policy district to district. The district policy is created at the SU level. Curriculum by state statute is set at the supervisory union level. Just want to make certain folks do realize that, so that would need to be, you know, commingled. Special education programming, which you've heard me talk about in regards to the real importance about getting to scale, And I do appreciate that your supervisory union maps will likely get us to scale in regards to be able to provide really efficient programming that delivers better outcomes for our students, but also is able to do it in a more efficient manner. We won't be so reluctant on needing to contract services for special education programs, but more in house programs. That's gonna need to be designed. You don't wanna have mergers happen, and in a year you're still running parallel operations because you haven't pulled those things together yet. Part of what will also happen at the SU level typically is collective bargaining agreements. They maybe have one SU still in the state right now that has multiple collective bargaining agreements. The rest of them would have bargaining at the SU level. That, again, results in more efficiency and better climate. And then fiscal operations, including accounts pay payable, payroll, and accounting software changeover. So we have

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: sticking to this part of your testimony, the messaging, merger portion, we have a number in there that we could have been quite sold if we had the $250,000 for that process. And what's your reaction to that?

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: I think that makes sense. Yep. And and that's what my testimony says. You have a number there for 250,000 and then I think you have a number there when you talk about, like, school districts, unified school districts that also have a supervisory capacity, right, of 300,000. Within your SU, all this work that I'm talking about, fiscal operations, budgeting, school information systems is also really important, that that's all gonna happen at the SU level. It's not gonna happen at the district mergers that are gonna recur within those SUs. And so within my testimony, I think the 250,000 makes a great deal of sense in regards to a grant that will allow us to have consultation with experts, including people at the SU level. What I go on to talk about in regards to the voluntary mergers of school districts in the SU level is that they're going to need to also contract some professional facilitation to lead those study committees and they're going to have some legal needs, but that transition grant is not going to need to be at the level that it's going to be in regards to like a supervisory district, right, because we've already done all that other work at the supervisory union level that I just outlined, okay? So I'm recommending at that area that you would think about like 40,000 to $50,000 for the facilitation really of the study committees, the legal needs, and then I would also encourage you to put some type of sum of money. I put 20,000 in my testimony as placeholder for making certain that the school district has some funds to start

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: rebranding. So that's your shift, the 40 to 50 is leading up to the vote.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: The 40 to 50 is leading up to the vote. 20 is up. And the 20 would be if they successfully merge. Okay. And what I have found in regards to doing those merge unified districts within the SU is that rebranding is incredibly important. That part of that work with the study committee needs to be re envisioning a roadmap for success. And in order to do that, I think that they have to work to create what is that new Unified District's mission and vision, and we need to rebrand so that there is a new identity. When we continue to live in the past in regards to after Unified District work has occurred, we don't deliver on the promise of more efficiency and opportunities. I have lived that in regards to coming in as a superintendent where a district had done that and then lived it helping a district that had not done that in the first branch Unified District. Chelsea and ran totally parallel K programs eight miles up the road from each other. And we worked with them to get them to create a unified elementary in Tunbridge that operates K-four and then a unified middle school at Chelsea to be able to provide better programming. We've resulted in more efficiencies, so we're able to invest that to get more opportunities for kids, but that needed us to create what is the actual identity for the First Branch Unified District. And so that work is important, and some rebranding funds I think will help. And so again, the big lift at the supervisory union merger level will be at the SU level. And so the two fifty makes sense. Those voluntary district mergers after within the SU boundaries do not need $300,000 Yeah. That's out of public opinion. It is out. Okay. Alright. Thank you, senator. It was in the light of We keep up with this.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: We can't buy back.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: Alright, well, when I referenced that, I'm sorry, that's what I was focused on before. And so any questions about that part of the testimony in regards to what will happen at the SU level in regards to the transitioning versus the inside with voluntary mergers that will happen with inside the SUs?

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: All

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: right, before I wrap up,

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I got a couple other quick points if I could make. Can

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I ask you about the points that you've already made? Yeah. So the effective operational date of 07/01/2028, that's what's already written into Act 73, right?

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: SUs, I think right now it's currently place held at 2027

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: for the SUs. In the drop legislation or in the Drop legislation. Vaccine on resilience?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No. The S new SUs because this is this was looking to the map that never happened. So the draft language for the SUVs on the map that we're looking at this committee, we had the starting effective date for The US units as 07/01/2027, and you're suggesting moving it to 07/01/2028. Yeah, just to ensure, because

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: and and just so I can give some context, I could see by 07/01/2028, we've created a new board and a superintendent's been hired, but none of that other work will have taken place yet about policy, curriculum, special education, fiscal operations. So I can see as an example in the Randolph area, having a business office still operating in Randolph and a business office still operating in South Royalton because we wouldn't have pulled those together yet. So I'm just saying if you give an additional year to allow for that board to actually pull those things together, we won't be stuck running parallel systems like building the plane while we're flying it. It will have been built.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Yeah. And then another question on the 250,000 for a newly enacted SU. Does it matter does it matter what size the SU is, how many facilities, how many principals, how many students, how many districts? Does any of that matter?

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: I don't believe so because you're still gonna have to

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: do all that work above.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: You're still gonna be pulling different entities. Every one of your SU is pulling multiple entities together, and so whether you're pulling two larger SUs together or three or four, I still see the same. Okay. That's a couple other points. Couple other points. I had to take the opportunity to appreciate and acknowledge that in your policy proposal that the state board is taking into consideration geography of non contiguous like operating districts under section ten three b. But I would like to encourage you to consider removing the do not need to be contiguous from that section altogether. And so I feel to see how the merging of non contiguous like operators through a potential merger by the state board is needed. If districts choose to

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: do it

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: voluntarily, then support that work. But having an example in the WRBS US currently constructed, have a K-six operating district in Sharon and a unified K-six operating district in Rochester Stockbridge. It's South Royalton and Bethel sit between them, and it's almost a forty minute drive from Sharon to get to Rochester. And I don't think if the state board decided, and that's why I appreciate the geography part there, hopefully they wouldn't decide to do this, but I would feel much better if you just removed it so it couldn't be done that way because I don't see any efficiency gained in a K-six operator in Rochester and a K-six operator in Sharon. And so I'm just advocating that under that section, there's a part that you say do not need to be contiguous, you just remove that and make them that they do need to be contiguous like operators. Just put that out there for under consideration. Then, you know We'll be closer with that, so it's Sometimes there may be just one town, but I worry about how we toughen up in the geography statement. Okay. Well taken. Yeah. Okay. And I'd like to think if they are closer that they will voluntarily try to merge. And it comes down to, again, what Senator said last week, that in these larger SUs, that's where the efficiency is really gonna be found. And the foundation formula, because these new larger SUs are gonna operate a lot like CSAs, and

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: merging I've been yelled at for saying that.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'm making it. But

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: merging some of these rural districts that don't decide to merge voluntarily is not gonna save any more money for the sake. I get that it feels better in regards to the implementation of the foundation formula, but if these districts believe that they can be effective and provide programming for kids and operate in a highly effective SU, I don't see anything other than voluntary needing to happen because it's not gonna change the bottom line of that SU footprint.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Can you say that again?

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: That within these SUs, like for example, I'll keep using the Randolph Area one because that's part of the one I serve, that that foundation formula is going be spread amongst those districts within that SU. And if that SU runs really efficiently, which is the goal, the SU assessment will stay low so that more dollars will be forward facing the kids. I don't see any additional savings, as an example, merging Sharon School District that operates K-six and Rochester Stockbridge that operates a K-six that has two towns in between them, that's going to save any more additional funds. So force merging them, I don't see any benefit to that. The foundation formula will be provided to the K-six operator in Rochester Stockbridge, the K-six operator in Sharon, and if they can still provide high quality programming for their kids, the size of their district isn't gonna matter. That, am I making sense for The sum of money from the children will still be the same for those 14 towns within that SU, whether they're one district or they're 10 districts.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you're also saying, I think your premise to that was that the efficiency really skimmed up the SU level. Yeah, absolutely. They're all at scale of point five zero. Yeah, and

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: I appreciate Senator Weeks has said so many times, this is not about closing schools. And I've appreciated that. He's stated that so many times. And so there is where I'm saying, let's find the efficiencies within that SU area and let those districts that need to merge to find additional efficiency, they'll merge. They will go work together and merge or figure out creative ways to provide programming for kids. We're not going to need to unilaterally have to just force them. And it's not going to change the bottom dollar for the amount of money those towns and districts are receiving within that SU boundary. It will be the same whether there are two districts in that SU or six districts. Yes.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I I didn't wanna interrupt him. No. He's up. He's got another comment. You got your final paragraph. You want another question. I'm not quite sure he's got it.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: That's essentially what I was just saying.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So town So town boat is what I wanted to ask you. Let's say, hypothetically, we get to a larger SU. It's got a bigger geographic footprint. The superintendent, know, professional as they are, they start to take a look at the different schools that are in their portfolio. What do you think should be the process for that superintendent to say, hey, look. You know, we really got to take these schools. Hypothetically say there's 10 of them, and in the end, there's gonna be seven of them or whatever. It's all hypothetical. The need of the town vote to affect that change, how critical is that town vote versus the superintendent being trusted to start moving the ball rolling in that direction? Where is the town vote? How relevant is it?

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: So the town vote for me here is talking about actual mergers via the what's currently in statute with study committees is what But we're talking in regards to closing schools, I believe in local democracy and I believe that through the work of them entrusted with the communities and studying the problem, I have come to learn that Vermonters are really supportive in regards to making changes. Example I can give you is in First Branch. This is the real lived example I can give you. Chelsea had just lost its high school. They were really upset about it. Heard some of this when you were at my birth from some Chelsea students. But when I could sit down and work with them and create a committee and create a plan and show them the savings and better programming for those kids, they supported the out of the air notion of us having elementary students at Tunbridge and middle school students in Chelsea. And Chelsea felt like then they just lost their elementary school. That's how they described it. But by them having a stake in it, in a voice in it, they have now bought into the merger. They are incredibly proud of their district. Okay,

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: so again, take everyone back to the hypothetical of a larger SU, it's got multiple districts that have multiple facilities all being in, but if if it were as simple as you say that people understand, they get it, that, they'll make the right decisions based on, you know, their understanding of the time, Why didn't why hasn't this happened, you know, fifteen years ago, ten years ago, five years ago? Why why haven't the districts already realized that for the benefit of the student, they need to start talking about district mergers.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: I think a lot of them have, and in my area they have, that's my point. I think that a lot of schools did a lot of really good work over the last decade in regards to creating mergers.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I'll accept that. Obviously we're dealing, we're both dealing, we're all dealing with different geographic and school realities. Some are moving faster and reaping benefits, some are not, and the gap's getting bigger.

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: And I understand different points of the state.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, thank you. Thank you. Was helpful. Thank you for coming in. Good

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: to see

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: was in the last fifteen years of my career superintendent at the Chittenden School District, which is formerly Chittenden's House District Advisory Division. Previous to that, I was a principal in Williston, a principal in Stowe, a principal in Morrisville, a bilingual director in Cayman, teacher in Stowe, and Cayman. I'm from Cayman, Vermont. I graduated from Cayman High School. I know that area of the state.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Probably was your class when you graduated? '24.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Okay. '24, if you can name them all. So, I feel like I'm a Vermonter, I remember. I think I've been asked here today to speak to the merger that Chittenden South did in 2014, the official merger that went into Champaign Medical School of History. Is that true?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Craig McJane reasoned, I'll suggest a few of you, Jackie will solve. Oh, yes. And that you've been through this process. I'm just looking for people So who've been through the what we're really trying to, we just want to really understand what's involved in the process of approaching two districts also think about it as leading up to the vote and then after the vote. Right. And part of it is the dollars we should assign to it, but it's even more just that we really understand all the pieces involved. So we're looking for real understanding of the process and then we do want to

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: think about what dollars do we So let me just, I think you've got my email page. I didn't even know if you needed that, but I just thought it would be So we're talking about something that happened over twenty years or so for us in terms of where it started. So I just want that on the table because I did spend a little time remembering and reached out to a couple people. But I will say this, our merger was easy. Every town, including St. George at High School Choice, voted overwhelmingly to merge. And I believe that's because we started my predecessor had started graduating back in 2003, let's say, started doing things in the Supervisory Union that started establishing the picture of we are one. Right? We would even do CSSYOU instead of CSSEU, things like that. By the time I came on board in 2006, he had already convinced the boards to hold their meetings together. So, obviously the SU board had to meet separately and then the local boards that they met in one place. And the high school cafeteria fixed a very modest dinner for people so that they encouraged people to come. So, more and more of the other board members would come to the SU board meeting than they would go to their separate rooms and have their boards. When I came on started meeting with the board chairs. So, at that time I had seven board chairs and we met with them monthly and we had the rules at the bottom where we meet to share common concerns to get update about what's going on at the legislature, what's going on at the AOE. But we're not doing board work at these meetings. What came of that was a camaraderie amongst these board chairs, right? So again, like that sense of us instead of like, we're all separate people, a lot of that work had already been done. I was meeting with my principals for full days once a month, and letting them be part of the agenda planning so that they felt really felt committed to, We are one entity. So, we were doing curriculum. The contract had been unified. We were still working through some of the things because a contract is a bear. Even though it's Chittenden County, you can imagine that, oh, you think that if they're all the same, They weren't. There was a big difference between Shelbert and Charlotte and Hinesburg at the time. In terms of their contrast, yes, go ahead. Collective bargaining agreement with teachers and support staff. So that's a big thing, right? So it took years. I would say ten years at least, more than that for some little things, but ten years at least to get the salaries all up in place. That was all done pre merger. We had a unified contract. We had a system for doing budgeting that was the same for all the boards. So if we were talking about technology in the second week in October in Charlotte, we were talking about technology in Williston, Shelburne, Hinesburg, CBU, and SU. So that people could have a common conversation about, and what does this look like? So, when we came out with SSU assessments at the time, no surprise, right? We did the same thing with curriculum and professional development. And I'm not saying it's easy. I mean, remember one board that said, We're not doing that program. And I remember saying, with the support of the other board members, That's okay, you don't have to, but our professional development from the SU is going to be on this program. The teacher's gonna come, but we're not even two separate. Those are the efficiencies people don't think about. Like if you're be laser focused on what you're doing, you could do a much better job than if every one of those schools at one time had a totally different math program, totally different reading program. You could call that teaching the teacher's way. Right? Not it wasn't a system. It was just so all of that had been done. All of which to say made merger when it came, and the opportunity to get 10¢ off this tax rate year one, 8¢ year two, 6¢. That will help, right? I will say the big conversations, and I think I wrote it down here at one point, because we've done a lot of work around culture at the board level, at the teacher level, at the leader level. That felt really like we were in a good place. The big things that we had to talk about were equity and autonomy. So, how do we make sure that we have equity for all our kids, which, with all due respect, isn't that what all of this is about? What are we doing for kids and education? For me, that's where my heart is and what I care about. What are we doing that's going to make things better for kids? So how do we make sure that we have equity for our kids while maintaining autonomy? And that rings true at every town in Vermont. We don't want cookie cutter sports. That thing that they do in Williston with their after school program at the time where people, teachers could get a half day off on Friday if they ran the after school four days a week. They wanted to still be able to do that. And what does that look like? And how do you even? So, that was a promise that I made and my team made to that committee that was doing it was that we will figure something out. Can't tell you now, because it seems like it's daunting, but we will figure something out. So equity and autonomy, which we did figure out. And the other thing was there were different per pupil costs in each of the schools. Were very high, some were very low. Lucky for us, the ones that were very low also had like the worst facilities and needed the most facilities help. And so, we had a couple board members that were like the numbers people and I worked with a tremendously competent CFO who really could take all this, lay it out, and show like, okay, so this is what it looks like in terms of the fur pupil, but here's what it looks like side by side with like what the facility's needs are. And it really was pretty much of a wash. Right? Like you could say, yes, it's true that you've got well, but you've got something breathing down your neck that's gonna cost all these other districts. And so they framed that out so that people could understand. Yeah, go ahead.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm going to pause you on equity just for a moment longer. What did that look like in your discussions vis a vis what you think it looked like in other parts of the state? I mean, sometimes it's bus miles traveled or, know, like, what were some of those things that we might not even be thinking about?

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: So, for us, it really was about our kids learning to read, write, do math, and couldn't they problem solve and be ready for citizenship in The United States. That's what for me was at the core of it.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Did it feel hard to say, like, your kids aren't doing like, what what is the answer then?

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: So we had already been doing a lot of work. Okay. I'm telling you, like, I hate to even say this out loud. It's gonna be taking notes. I don't like saying this out loud, but when I first

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They are working, it is working. We're going to

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: So I'm just gonna say, hypothetically, in my situation, there were touts that were seen by the kids themselves. And I had two teenagers that went through the Seaview High School. Moved to Williston when my older son was in eighth grade, my younger son was in fifth grade, they both went through. And so they were both athletes. I was very connected to the community and parent groups that I can tell you that there were, the kids going to CVU had a sense that kids from certain towns were made better prepared than kids from others, and it was well known. And the people in the community where the kids believed that their kids weren't well prepared, knew that was being said. So we weren't dealing with a deep, dark secret, but we were dealing with, Well, you've gotta fix that. And one of the ways that I dealt with that, I'm not the only one that ever dealt with it, but one of the ways I dealt with it was to keep reminding people all of our kids are safe. Chittenden at CVU in those same classes. That's one scenario. And it's important that they're prepared in algebra one or geometry in the same way, because otherwise that teacher's gonna have to spend a lot of time. That's one scenario. And another one is all of our kids are at CBU, And if we have to water down the offering so much, that's not best for our kids either. And by that, I mean in one community, you could have the world language up through French or Spanish too. In another community, you got no French, no world language. Same thing with math. Some kids will go to CBU with opportunities that put them right into geometry or even algebra two and other kids who haven't had any geometry at all. It's taxing on a system. And if it's taxing on a system as big as CBU, imagine how taxing it is on Cayman High School to So make important, so driving home, dad, Lisa, the equity all the way through, how that maximizes then what your kids can have. So that was one thing. So the facilities, per pupil cost, the autonomy piece, how are we gonna deal with that? It seems like that was one other piece that was

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: really Also, you wanna think of, I mean, what is the same effect that been hearing, is that the real work is not beeping up to the road to merge.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Oh, yeah. And I'm saying that like, and I can't speak for other people who have merged because maybe some people merge without having done all that pre work and then on that day one is when it all starts. And maybe they were very successful. I guess I always look at it even back then. Would say to people, there's more than one way to do this. You can do it slowly or you can do it all at once. I guess my own philosophy is just do it. However, lots and and and I'm not a big supporter of what off call the off grants. I do work now consulting with school boards. I hire I do superintendent searches. I worked most recently with Grand Isle on, you know, the work with the community around whether they close a school or not. And it just strikes me as inefficient to have a place like Grand Isle that is, I mean, it's an island and yet they have to have two awards because they have two k sixes and two k eights, and they need an SU. That doesn't make any sense to me. You know, like, as a superintendent, that would have been more work because two of the two of them were k six or k eight. In my humble opinion, that's an excuse not to merge. That is just an excuse not to merge. They're contiguous. They're all they consider themselves islanders. Anyways, I know that's a little bit off, but

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you think do you think there's, like, sensitive equity questions there that that district grand out.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Will open up in general. In general. Yeah. I mean, in general,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, that like, right, my husband's a CPU grad. And talking to him one time about his high school experience, I thought, wow. There's a lot of there's a lot

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: of class dynamics going on in that school. I think that that's gonna be true everywhere.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering in Morrisville. That was true

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: in Stowe. What do you Somewhat true in Canaan, although the smaller you get,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: because that's kept me so many friends. I agree. It's probably everywhere. And do you think it's underneath some of the conversations but not arching?

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Think in some cases it can be. That gets to like, I might have put culture in all caps. Oh my gosh, building the culture that how big is our world? We are a little toy state. How big is our world? Shouldn't we be looking out for every kid in Florida? To me, that's the North Star. And yes, there are gonna be things like that, but if we can offer them a great education and lots of opportunities, that goes a long way towards,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: you know- And what defines, everybody said that great education thing, because everybody's a little different, but if you had to say, here's a core to a great education, what would you go, these are the four, I five want

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: every kid to be able to read and there should be markers along the way, right? So like we know that third grade, and if third grade is a big marker, can they be on grade level at end of third grade, is going to be connected to whether they're going to college, how they're doing on their SATs, whether even they take algebra, even though it's free. I want every kid to be able to read confidently do math. You need to do some level of math and it needs to be math problem solved. Those critical kind of thinking skills, be good citizens. I don't think that we've done a great job with that. Somebody asked me quite a few years ago, did we miss, educators, did we miss the bus on teaching civics? And back then I went, Why are they blaming us again? And today I would say, Yes, we did. We missed that bus.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: As So that's Okay, great. What I'm trying is equity and equality. And it's such a moving scale because you go like, hey, go see the U. They have a huge list of opportunities. Go up to Cannon. Oh. They do not have. If we had But. Well, what I'm saying is that you go, because we talk to the students up at Cannon and they're like, we have everything we need. I agree. So, what it comes down

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: to is that we as But they can redo math, they could quickly problem solve, and know. Here's another piece, and I'm not a fan of like career training at school, that's not yet. I'm sorry if I'm, you know, pushing on anybody's buttons there. But I am a fan of making sure that kids know there are lots of different jobs out there and you, whether you're from Canaan, Vermont, or Shelburne, you can do that.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So, and I believe we, any school went to, schools are amazing. They are all amazing. It's like, should we say this is what defines the school being equal and equitable, that they're offering these five things. Then, you know, all the arts, all the sports, everything else on top that gives your child even more variety. You're pushing on the autonomy piece of that whole thing. Well, I'm pushing that, what we get is, you're going to CBU, you're getting a lot better education. No, it's not. I don't agree with that. But you have some people go, well, I want what they want. Why isn't And my school offering

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: I think they would ask that question less if they felt their kids were getting what they needed and felt whole and felt like they were involved in the school and were doing important things and felt good about themselves. The kids in Canaan said to you, no, we got everything we needed, right? They didn't say, Oh, we don't have a hockey team, we don't have a football team, we don't have a lacrosse team, they do say that. They say, We play soccer, we play basketball, we have a forestry program is really

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: But then you get the occasional, always a but. I know. But you get the parent that might say, I want more opportunities for my child. Now I'm not feeling

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: what But

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: CBU is

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: as a system, we say four or five, these are the, that is, your child knows how to read, math skills, social skills, and because all that other stuff, once you know how to read math and problem solve, the door, like you said, opens up.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Can I, can I

[Jamie Kinnarney (Superintendent, White River Valley Supervisory Union)]: try to define that a

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: little bit? How about like reading at grade, or math at grade level, as opposed to how many AP courses you're Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the right metric?

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Well, do think that, this is not exactly about the game, but I do think that we should be testing kids, and reading, and math, and having opportunities for intervention for those kids who aren't there. And the intervention can't just be like, oh, you get an extra twenty minutes of this same thing, but twenty minutes of like, what are you missing? What is it that you're not getting? Because like, especially in math, like, a building misconception upon misconception is not giving them an extra hour a day is not gonna help that. It really needs to be very focused on where are you in terms of like number theory or all of that kind of stuff and then provide the intervention for that. Believe pretty strong.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, so much better informed intervention.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Right. Yeah. Based on the kid's own need. Yeah. Not like, okay. Today, we're all gonna do corrections again. We said maybe two of you missed it. And two of you don't even know what we're talking about. And the rest of you are like, I already did this.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yep. But I think that's a really interesting topic in London.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: But I do think it gets to that equity thing, which I think is an important thing that, you know, what does equity look like? And especially if you're talking about, you start talking about money. So one of the things we did is we normalized teacher salaries, for example, so that we had a spreadsheet that had each of the schools. How many teachers did they have? Teachers. And we said every teacher is worth $65,000 So we can say, Oh, some of them get paid 80, some of them get paid 42, no, all of them 65. How many guidance counselors do you have? And we had a number for that. How many principals? How many paraeducators? Whatever. So, now when you've got that all in there, say how many students do you have? And you divide by, right? And so, we had that number year one. And then we shared that with only the principals. All the principals got to see each other's numbers. And they could see that there are couple of schools that are spending a lot more money than others, but we didn't. We shared like the methodology with the boards, but not the numbers. We had because you need that time. Right? You can't, like, institute something like that and right away show how it looks. Right? But so what happened from that, and that gets to that culture piece of, like, we are together. Those principles knew that, like, when there was an opportunity to move, you know, like, positions from one school to another, now that we're an SD, we're gonna do that. And so what happened one year is one of the schools that had compared to the others more per pupil guidance than any of the other schools. And their guidance counselor retired. And those administrators came to me and said, we see the writing on the wall. How about as a halfway step, we've only hired for a pack and we share it with this other school that is clearly low compared to everybody else. So stuff like that started to happen. You can do that if you've got a big system. But a small system like what is there to move around?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We're trying to get to some scale at the end of

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Yes, the yep. Yeah. So I think you're you're bringing a a really interesting perspective to the community because you've had time to reflect in your career. You're not under Yeah. Maybe a personal pressure blah blah blah. You've been able to you think about this. And I'd like you if you could, because I'm sure you're aware, Senator Heffernan's got a single district, single unified statewide

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Where are you? Where are

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: One unified system. All Vermont. So you can talk about maps.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: A map that they outlined at Vermont. I'm just wondering if

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: One district? One district. One unified system.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: So here's, well, think the system itself should be unified at some level, right? I mean, think we are, for a lot, it should be one. We should be thinking about what's our purpose and, you know, like, what's our needs, the student needs, and what's our, you know, the taxpayers? What will they afford? I think there's a line in Act 46 that, like, you know, the best possible education you could provide at a cost the taxpayer will support. In the end, that's where we are. I think one system in terms of governance is too big, personally. I think that, I just know the work that I did as a superintendent. I don't, I say, and I mean no disrespect at any other state because I'm sure there are plenty of states that also have superintendents who do they dig into the work. I feel like in Vermont, the superintendents work with their principals, with their teachers. They're not out

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: there just If I had the premise that one superintendent, but then he'll have

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: A lot of assistance. Administrators that

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: are dedicated to a certain region to Yes. To fill that 2,000 to 4,000, whatever works best. And that's what they remember, by the way. They answered to them and it works up, which is Well,

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: does the Secretary of Education play into that?

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: That's who the superintendent would work with you. Yep, and then disseminating all the information goes a lot quicker than it does now. But we're working on, as much as I'd love to take mine and run with it, in this building, it's not gonna fly you Yeah, quite

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: And it could be that it builds up that way. I don't know. I just think that there are I like the more recent map with like 14 or 16 or 20 or whatever better than I also, my personal opinion is, I don't think that like Chittenden County ought to have schools of 10,000. And not because of workload or anything else. The rest of the state already thinks that Chittenden County is tail that's wagging the dog. And to just make a bigger district there just invites that even more. We should be more like everybody else, not even more different. That's my opinion.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So do we explore more? Yeah.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Thanks, sir. So as a superintendent, you had a variety of principals who reported into your schools.

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: Yeah.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So what keep me into asking you this next question is the fact that you mentioned 2,000 to 4,000 as being the sweet spot for

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Well, just like that better than what I had seen before.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: That's the number of students. I'm wondering if the perspective should be the number of principals that the superintendent manages as opposed to the number of students that are already those principals. They

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: probably should be related. They probably should be related. If the principal's doing also, have in Vermont, like hands on principals at home, right, who are in classrooms, are working with teachers, are modeling, here's how we do business here, and who are collaborative and work with other principals in the organization. So how many did I have? Know, like altogether, probably about a couple of them. Where? 20 administrators because when we met, we met all of us. So even the business manager met with us. And initially I got pushed back from that, but I will tell you in short order, they went, I love these meetings.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Good.

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: I understand now how it all works together.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So how many principals?

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: Principals, I had six principals, six assistant or co principals. Curriculum director, special ed director, HR chair. Care.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You. Yeah.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Thank you for coming in.

[Elaine Collins (Superintendent, North Country Supervisory Union)]: You're welcome.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You're welcome. You wanna take a quick break? Then just I have to send it

[Elaine Pinckney (Former Superintendent, Chittenden South/CVSD)]: to somebody. Yeah. Yes. Will.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Quick break. Let's really make it only till four because we have